https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2c1a79e7f2b9b1da397078a103dcc916.mp3?Expires=1784764800&Signature=Yo1t3MLWr4dpuJlRODVSAWvQiThBlPUxgC7eTOO5xHNMrouYcPvC5U2y14VBiLFbFJq2PdyrdDKJHwrq%7ElDIduGyvjyLqT3OBM5X1eBDtMCshLo7IkiQoFC%7ER037iSaLmeJiQV1FmDXafww3kZ2RiLnpHbbJNeV2SRjIb2m7nLLmSK31N-89JdBMu9wdnoINTJ9XTNOBDDr21Y3qMBx1oTQY1baZhIUHpyW7yFLDDWtcnEH9uj9jTgwR9obmUBHOL8eCbtV93IIOz8CT-G8mfmIOulxend5Zdw8nkbsftx743qorNKM0xMTCKCau8puEQey1HeXlHpjicpw0sKZEeg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e737fca0ac68be544679c1f9dacd80e8 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2a8191d667fb37919b77dda702f6936c.pdf?Expires=1784764800&Signature=vmZc6mrRFUkkZZ-25gWYYeb3tL7BNYEg98ssAs4R8TwUgGtkToCFtEQWWRGIJGP0i6yGYSJfihdc-0u2OLW36zx0kIOTpaBu2jn-VAWDguV9vf57lFROOkTbT7rZ81XSTqre3ZoG9vTRsS07-3n4hHSisuRKl5yZieU-x97e-TAPudp2h-HUJ0TlbwZyQZtsCK7%7ExZzp5zMJtjFFyvdu4Zs2MsBvCUd1eSs7AhAVki%7EOTVA8YQbjBwdQozJ6KoGHVXCRzdLGcBR-6QpHeeVqWw6ADDjl0RobOsEU7lT4TOB5p8u%7EFDiQ2OOjpN3knEUKmDNxyr9ruNSCBEMLWue9Mw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 6197053ca271783a115927fa61647322 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Karen Sontag Interviewers: Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer June 15, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: Okay. Today is June 15, 2019, and I’m with Karen. . . LOIS JOHNSON: Okay. I’m looking forward to this, Karen. Could you please give us your name, your age, and where you’re currently living? KAREN SONTAG: My name is Karen Sontag. I live in Newton, Massachusetts, and I am 58 years old. LJ: Thank you. Okay, this interview is going to be part of the project which we’re currently doing on the history of Boston DOB. Boston DOB was founded [01:00] in 1970 or so. Tell me a little bit about your early age, where you were born, where you lived, what your parents were like, etc. Just give us a little sense of that. KS: Sure. I was born in 1960, and my parents at that time lived in Newton, Massachusetts. My father was an attorney. He had been a state rep in the late ’50s before I was born. [02:00] I grew up in Newton. I attended the Chestnut Hill School. I attended the Winsor School and graduated from there, and then I went to Bennington College in Vermont. Then, I moved back to Boston. LJ: Then what did you do when you got -- once you got back to Boston? KS: My first job was as an editorial assistant for the Atlantic Monthly, and one of my duties was to sift through the pile of unsolicited manuscripts, mostly short stories, and pick out any ones that had promise and send them up to the editors. LJ: That must have been wonderful, though, to work for the Atlantic Monthly in those days. KS: It was exciting. We also maintained the archives, a card catalog of everything that the magazine published and editorial files and all kinds of things like that. LJ: Boy. (laughs) Tell me, did you study [03:00] library science at -KS: No. I was a literature major. 1 �LJ: At Bennington. KS: At Bennington, yes. LJ: What was Bennington like in those days for you? KS: It was interesting. I was a somewhat sheltered kid from the suburbs. I’d gone to a high school where they were very strict with us, and this was in the era of punk rockers, so there were a lot of wild kids at school. But it was a great, artistic community. And one thing that I remember and really prized about the experience is the faculty members really treated the students with respect, almost as colleagues and really took them seriously, and that had a great effect on students, because they in turn took themselves seriously because they were treated with respect and interest by the faculty. LJ: That certainly is different from most -- many places. Bennington has a wonderful reputation. [04:00] And what were the schools like that you went to when you were younger, your primary school, etc.? They were private schools? KS: Yes. They were small. The Chestnut Hill School, and it’s still in existence over on Hammond Street in Chestnut Hill, was very small. And I went there through I think the fifth grade. I think there were 9 or 10 students in my fifth-grade class. And then -LJ: My goodness. KS: Yeah. The school ended at the sixth grade, and students would go on to either a public school or Beaver Country Day or the Winsor School. And my parents made me take the test for the Winsor School, and they said don’t worry, you won’t get in. (laughter) And by some fluke I did, and then they said how can you turn down an opportunity like this? As of sixth grade, I started the Winsor School, and I did graduate from there. [05:00] 2 �LJ: That’s wonderful. It has an outstanding reputation in the Boston area. What were the things that you enjoyed the most in your primary school? Did you have an artistic bent? KS: Probably recess (laughter) and running around and getting into trouble. LJ: That’s good. You had a feisty personality as a kid? KS: A little bit. I was a handful. LJ: Wonderful. That’s what we like to hear. What were your parents like? KS: Well, as I said, my dad was an attorney, was very hard-working. He maintained an office in Government Center. And my mom had worked prior to my being born I think as a legal secretary but didn’t work after I was born. And she did a lot of charity work, particularly with a group called the Aid for Cancer Research. They would have this annual ladies luncheon every year as a fundraiser, [06:00] and then they had a board of doctors who advised them what they should do with the proceeds from their luncheon every year. They made gifts of wings and equipment to various hospitals. I believe they’re still in existence, too. LJ: That’s wonderful. KS: The Aid for Cancer Research. LJ: Was your mother -- was she a doctor? KS: No. She wasn’t. The interesting thing about my parents is my father was Jewish and my mother was Catholic, so in the ’50s, when they were dating, that was a big deal. LJ: That was a big deal. KS: That was a really big deal to be -- and then to be a child of an interfaith marriage, I was raised as a Catholic because my mother was very religious. My father was okay with that. 3 �LJ: That’s interesting. I’ve heard that before where there was a Catholic and Jewish combination. Usually it was a Catholic mother, and they really wanted their child to be brought up Catholic. [07:00] That’s very interesting. You went on from that, and you went to -- because you were interested in literature -- to this place. And how long were you there? KS: There being -LJ: There being Atlantic Monthly. KS: Oh. About 10 years. LJ: Really? KS: And then I got more interested in social justice, and I went to graduate school part-time, while I was still working, to a program in conflict resolution at U Mass Boston; so [I] studied negotiation, mediation, etc. Shortly thereafter, I started working for the Mass. Office of Dispute Resolution, which was a state agency that worked with other state agencies and municipalities, so I was there for about eight or nine years as well. LJ: Tell us a little bit about the kinds of things [08:00] that you worked with there. KS: Well, we did training and negotiation skills, meeting facilitation, conflict resolution -- for employees of state agencies like -- I’m trying to think. We worked a lot with -- I’m not sure what they call it now, but back in those days, it was the Department of Mental Retardation. I think it has a different name now. We worked with all kinds of state agencies, municipalities, conflicts between town fire departments and the town, or conflicts within organizations. It was a very interesting time. A lot of environmental cases. We also ran programs in the courts, small mediation programs that were managed by our office. 4 �LJ: So, does that area -- does that still exist? KS: No. The office has sort of shrunk down through budget cuts, and I believe now it’s called [09:00] the Mass Office of Conciliation, and it’s an institute of U Mass Boston. LJ: Oh, I see. KS: It’s no longer a state agency, but we had a good run, and we did a lot of good work. LJ: What are you doing now? KS: Now, I worked for a small consultancy called the Greater Boston Manufacturing Partnership, and we do continuous improvement work in manufacturing and healthcare. And I’m more of an operations person, really a business writer. I write grants on behalf of our clients, I write case studies about the work that we do, and some training materials, etc. LJ: That’s unusual. Is it a state -- no, it’s not state. KS: No, it’s a nonprofit. It’s a mission-based organization. LJ: Is that located right here in Boston? KS: We are now in the Fort Point area of Boston, off of A Street. LJ: The place where [10:00] all the feistiness is going on. (laughs) KS: Oh yeah. The Seaport. You just wouldn’t recognize it. It’s pretty crazy. LJ: And you hope that the ocean does not come in soon. KS: So do all those high-priced condo owners. (laughter) LJ: Who thought that they were getting a deal. (laughs) Well. Would you tell me a little bit more about your family as time has gone on? Are you an only child? KS: I was an only child. My parents both died in 2009. I spent the last 10 years of their lives being a primary caregiver, as I was the only child, and I think many people have that 5 �experience, and it’s very challenging, especially if you’re trying to work. I mean, I used to work for Cambridge Health Alliance somewhere in there, and I was supposed to be doing new employee orientation one day, and I get the call from my mother, “Your father’s on the way to the MGH [11:00] by ambulance,” and all those kinds of things. That’s very stressful. It’s funny. I just saw an article in the Atlantic recently about daughters as caregivers, and how working mothers have so much support in our culture and so much recognition, but daughters as caregivers really do not. And it -- it’s incredibly stressful because usually people become more needy and more dependent as they get older, not less, and there are just so many crises that happen. LJ: It’s time-consuming. KS: Yeah. LJ: And if you don’t have a partner or a husband or a wife to help you with it, it really consumes your whole life. KS: Yeah. Or siblings. But even in families where there are multiple children, it often falls to one or two, and usually to the daughters. [12:00] SB: That’s right! LJ: Usually it’s a long line of women who give hours and hours of labor per week to the parents or to whomsoever. That’s an admirable thing that you did. Now, you were employed all the time that you were doing that? KS: Yes. LJ: What kinds of hobbies do you have, and what do you enjoy socially? KS: I’m a big music fan. I love jazz, I love folk music, pop music, so I go to a lot of concerts. I enjoy that. I like being in the Boston area for the cultural offerings, the readings, plays, 6 �different things like that. We pay a premium to live in the city, and I try to take advantage of some of the offerings. I also in recent years have started to travel a lot more. [13:00] I do a lot of trips with Olivia Travel. Are you familiar with them? LJ: Oh, do you? KS: I do. It’s a very safe and companionable way to travel. Next year, for my 60th birthday -I’ll be 59 in August, but next year, I’ve signed up to go to India with Olivia. SB: Oh my God, wow! LJ: That’s wonderful. KS: Yeah. Olivia’s doing a huge variety of trips, so I’ve -- since my parents passed in 2010, I’ve done quite a few trips with Olivia. I was in Japan earlier this spring. LJ: My goodness. SB: Oh, that’s wonderful. God. LJ: You do get around. (laughter) KS: Yeah. I’ve also done some trips on my own. And you never regret having those experiences. In 2016, I went to Cuba, which is something, courtesy of the Trump administration, that most of us can’t do now again today. SB: I’ve done it, too and I did it when Obama was [14:00] -- before Obama, but anyway. KS: I did, too. Yeah, but he went in 2016, shortly after I was there. And other places as well. In 2015, I was lucky enough to visit Turkey and Istanbul. And at that time, Istanbul was still a wonderful, secular city where you’d see women walking down the street in full chador next to women wearing hot pants. That has unfortunately been eroded in the last few years. The world is a really dynamic place, and you never regret having visited some 7 �of those places. And when things happen in the world, you feel more plugged-in when you’ve been to a place and experienced it. LJ: I think it’s wonderful you’ve had all those opportunities to trip. I would like to know when did you realize that -KS: That’s -- Oh, I know her. Laura. [15:00] SB: There’s Laura. You know her! Is that right? KS: From the Arlington Street Church. Hi! SB: Hi! LJ: Hi. How are you? LAURA CATANZARO: Hi. Hi. LJ: Hello, hello. SB: Karen. KS: Hi. LC: Hi. Sorry to be so impossibly late. It’s just one of those days. LJ: Yeah. Well, we’re glad you’re here, my dear. Good to see you. Sit ye down. LC: I’m going to record as well, just to have a backup. LJ: You’re just going to record it? Another one? (laughs) LC: Oh, have you done it? Finished? SB: No, no, no. LJ: We’re in the middle. SB: We’re right in the middle of it. LC: Oh, there, yeah. I’ll just jump in. I’m sure we don’t need it, but if we do, we’ll have at least half. 8 �KS: Okay. LJ: Are we stopped or still going? SB: No, we’re still going. LJ: We’re still going. SB: Just go right ahead, Lois. LJ: Okay, fine. All right. I’m at the point where I wanted to ask you, you identify as lesbian, and if so, you [16:00] -- when did you first have feelings about women that you thought were a little different or unusual? KS: Well, I probably did back in high school. It’s -- because it was an all-girls school, and I went there in sixth grade, and so there were girls up through high school year, so I think I started to have crushes on women then. And then in eighth grade, there was one particular girl that I really had a terrible crush on, and she didn’t come back to school after the fall semester, and I was just terribly upset. As it turned out, her family sent her to the Sorbonne for the last half of her senior year, but I had no idea that those plans were being made. So I think when she didn’t come back to school after Christmas vacation, I probably walked the halls like a woman with no [17:00] country, and so much so that my parents were called in, because they could tell I was depressed, but -- they knew something was wrong with me, but of course I couldn’t tell anyone. LJ: No! KS: No, not back in those days, so I kind of soldiered on. I think I was made to go see a psychiatrist and everything, but we got through it. I went on, and I did -- I did date boys. I didn’t ever have a particularly close relationship with one, but I did have a little boyfriend in high school. And my parents were very strict, so it wasn’t like I was 9 �running around all the -- everywhere with him. And then I went to college, and I think that’s when I really started to have those -- more of those feelings. I don’t think I -- I did have a little bit of a crush on one of the teachers at school and hung out with her a bit. She was the head dyke on campus. She took me to a party where I met [18:00] Adrienne Rich, so it was all exciting. In Williamstown. But I was still -- coming from the kind of background that I came from, my mother was a big Catholic, my parents were very, very straight arrows in every sense of the word, I was really a little afraid and a little afraid of how they would react. But finally, after I graduated from school, there were a lot of friends from college in the Boston area, and a lot of them were going to different clubs. One of them was called the 1270 on Boylston Street. Another was the Marquis in Central Square. So I think one night, I went out with a bunch of them to the Marquis, in part to show how non-homophobic I was, and I met my first girlfriend at the Marquis. Her name was Sophie, and I met her and talked to her. And then months later, I went back to the Marquis, and there she was, standing at the same place at the bar, and [19:00] then that took off. I think I was -- that was probably 1983. I was 22, and I had my first relationship. But I was very secretive about it. In those days, I worked at the Atlantic Monthly, and was at 8 Arlington Street, and she worked downtown as well for an investment office. I would walk a couple of blocks over to the Ritz and use the pay phone in the Ritz basement to call her because I didn’t want anybody to know. LC: That’s pretty funny. 10 �KS: And then finally, there was a friend at the Atlantic named Jan Morris, and her mother was a lesbian, and she and some of the other girls just took me out for drinks one day and said ‘get over yourself and stop being so silly, it’s all cool’. There, I was accepted. LJ: Wonderful that you got to that point. That was your first girlfriend. KS: My first girlfriend. LJ: And how long did that last? [20:00] KS: We had some on and off, but about 10 years. LJ: Have there been other women in your life? KS: Oh yes. A few. (laughter) LJ: Tell us a little bit. KS: I don't think we have enough tape here for all of that. (laughter) You know, I think it’s -you do tend to go from relationship to relationship when you’re younger. I – when I was younger, I tended to date older women. My first girlfriend was 11 years older, and I kind of kept up that pattern and dated quite a few older women. And it’s interesting because now some of the people I date are in their 70s and 80s, and just interesting. A lot of them have just turned 70. So I had various relationships over the years. I think that tended to die down a little in the years I was taking care of my parents, but I recently started [21:00] dating someone pretty seriously. LJ: That’s what we like to hear. (laughs) KS: Yeah. She’s a big baseball fan. LJ: Oh. Are you a baseball fan? KS: No, but I -- we went to Pride night at the Red Sox last week. SB: I was there! 11 �KS: We’ve been hanging out in all the same -- were you up in the Sam Deck at that party? SB: No, I didn’t go to the party. (laughs) KS: Okay. LJ: Well, that sounds as though it’s a promising thing. Could you tell me a little bit about your hobbies? I think that in your particular interests, I think you have covered some of that, but is there anything you’d like to tell us about other things that you like to do besides work? Or maybe you don’t have any time, you’re working so much. KS: I’ve always been interested in the women’s community and women’s culture. [22:00] I, as you know, went to DOB groups for many years. I went to groups at the Women’s Center in Cambridge. I went to some of the women’s music festivals around the country, the Southern Music Festival, the New England Music Festival. And I was lucky enough to go the Michigan Women’s Music Festival three times. Once in 1990 and once in 2010, and then once in 2014, which is the year before the last year that it was held. LJ: That was something that a lot of people wanted to go to, [but] didn’t have the opportunity. Could you tell us a little bit about when you first learned about DOB and when you first came and if you had any particular interests and what you might have done within the DOB structure? KS: I’m not sure [23:00] how I learned about DOB, because this was way -- this was -- we’re probably talking 1983, ’84, ’85. There was no internet. Back then, before we had the internet, we had bulletin boards. There were certain places around that were known for having really interesting bulletin boards, like J.P. Licks still has a bulletin board in the back now, but that’s probably something -- that’s probably how I learned about it. There was a notice on a bulletin board someplace, and I remember -- by that point, I had moved 12 �to Davis Square, Somerville. I lived in David Square for 25 years, from about 1985 through 2009, in the same apartment. I had access to the Red Line and could get around that way. I think I told you before, I remember in the early years, going into a rap [24:00] upstairs in the church in that room that DOB rented, and I had my little Laura Ashley dress on from work, and some woman telling me I was not in the right place. (laughter) LJ: Did somebody say that to you? KS: Yes, yes. But that was -- I didn’t know enough to appreciate it at the time, but the amazing thing about DOB was -- and being lesbian, it brought together people from all walks of life. I’d be in there in my little dress, and there was a woman who’s still a friend of mine today, Dee Greenberg, and she was wearing black leather from head to toe, and everything in between, and people who come from very different backgrounds. We had this one sometimes clandestine thing in common that we were all lesbians. And we would talk. I kind of miss that. And Michigan was that way, too. It bought together women from all parts of the country, [25:00] from all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds. And now, gay life is very segregated in lots of ways by background, by interests, by different things like that, and that’s, I think, a loss. LJ: That’s an interesting comment because the reason that DOB closed was that we thought that DOB interests -- not DOB, but lesbian interests were becoming more fragmented, and we didn’t think of it as something that was necessarily bad, but it meant that we were not, as I said, the only place that you could go, and so there wasn’t as much interest. But perhaps things are going to change again, as they always usually do. But I don’t know. You might [26:00] give us a little bit more interest about that, I mean commentary about 13 �that. Have you found any organizations that are just -- people with many interests come to or just segment it? KS: Well, I think the meet-ups, which have kind of taken over at this time, they’re a little bit segregated. I mean, they have the South Shore Lesbians, they have the North Shore Lesbians, they have the Lesbians Who Golf, they have the Activist Lesbians. So there is still this kind of segregation, but I think we’re now again in a political time where we may all need to come together again to make sure that our rights aren’t taken away, to defend the rights of women. So there may, as you say, be another great gathering again, but... LJ: Well, have you ever been to Rally? [27:00] KS: Yes, I have. LJ: And to OLOC? KS: Yes. LJ: Yeah. So they have filled that area a little bit. KS: To some degree they have. I mean, I think we’re all really going to miss the dialogue that OLOC promoted. LJ: Yes. Yeah. And also, we would miss a monthly Rally, because I believe that’s changing also to something smaller. KS: It takes a lot of energy to run one of these groups. I was involved for about seven years with a meet-up called LASS. It was the Lesbian Aid and Service Society. And there were six of us who ran the meet-up, and we were there to provide non-professional help to women in the community, women who had sudden illness or accidents. [28:00] And we did help a lot of women, but we also did find that we were based in the Boston area, 14 �but that the community was so disparate, it was really hard to serve people. We also ran on volunteer energy, so we really didn’t have the person-power to serve the chronically disabled, people who had pretty consistent ongoing needs, but we were there to provide a ride for somebody home from a procedure, or to have a second set of ears for a doctor’s appointment, or to do an errand or get some food for somebody who was house-bound, somebody who had broken a hip or whatever. We did quite a lot with that. Then, we took over the mantle of having the annual women’s Thanksgiving Dinner in the Cambridge area. We ended up using the UU church in Arlington for two or three years; we liked to have that -- as DOB I think started the tradition. [29:00] Then I think another meet-up called Over-4D did it one year, but then we took it over, so we did it for I think three years, to have a women’s Thanksgiving -- a lesbian Thanksgiving dinner, really, the Sunday before Thanksgiving, just in recognition that many people didn’t have a place to go on Thanksgiving, but also didn’t have a place where it was okay to be lesbian, and that was celebrated. LJ: That’s very interesting. I didn’t even know anything about that. My goodness. That is -that ran for a few years? KS: Yeah, seven or eight years. And it started -- the original founder who didn’t stay with it had a sudden medical emergency requiring surgery and just -- her looking at the mess it caused in her life and really not having any place to go or anyone to call to really help out with certain things. And so she was the [30:00] founder. And then six of us took it over. I think with anything in the women’s community, there’s always a lot of dialogue, there’s always a lot of dissent, and that can really bog things down. 15 �LJ: It can. I think that has both positives and negatives, but it seems that you’ve done an enormous amount of volunteer work, a lot of interest in that. Do you think that you -that’s something that you probably will continue with even as you age into your -- maybe beginning to get towards 60, it’s something that you feel you’ll be able to do more of? Or not more of, but a similar amount time devoted to it? KS: I hope so. At this point in my life, I’m a little bit challenged by working full-time, [31:00] having started a new relationship, trying to take care of a house, trying to get regular exercise. There’s only so many hours in the day, and all of those things are a little challenging for me right now, with the time. LJ: I’m sure it is, because houses do take a lot of time, too. Well, let me see. We’ve covered a lot of things that’s there. Anything in that we have not talked about that you would like to talk about? In a relationship, too, maybe a little bit -- I think you gave us some things about DOB. Is there any more things you would like to say about that? KS: I know I became a rap leader at one point, and I don’t remember. The raps had different titles or different -LJ: They did. KS: But I don’t remember which one I took. It was maybe every other Tuesday or something like that. LJ: I’ve got you down in my list [32:00] somewhere. KS: Oh, really? LJ: Yeah. There’s some older material that I managed to get, and I’ll tell you at some point, but I can’t tell you right now. I saw your name there, and I said, “I know that woman.” (laughter) 16 �KS: Just to say a shout out about the raps. You know, it’s such a nice way to meet people. You could really see them over time, and you could hear what they had to say. You know, the internet’s never going to replace that. I mean, some people hate Facebook, some people love it, but there’s just something about getting a bunch of people in a circle and talking about a particular topic. We don’t have as much opportunity for that kind of dialogue these days. LJ: Real people that you can look at and say that would be interesting. That’s true. [33:00] I think that was a -- of course, excuse me, please, that was something that really started the ’60s, in the ’70s, and seems to have become just oh, let me look on my Facebook or let me look at something else in my telephone and not really say to the person could you answer such and such a question? Or how do you feel about something? I think that’s a loss. KS: I agree. LJ: Now, is there anything else you’d like to tell us or riffed on? KS: (laughs) I’m just thinking. I mean, I remember the DOB did other things that were -- there were dances. I think DOB had some dances and all kinds of activities. LJ: There were -- and you came to 156.[Lois and Sheri’s house in the South End] KS: You must have had a -- yeah, [34:00] a party. Yeah, I remember that. LJ: People getting to meet people, yes. KS: Yeah. Those were all great things. LJ: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us in general about? Or anything that you feel we have not covered? 17 �SB: Well, I was just wondering, you mentioned that you did things at the Women’s Center. Were there a lot of women at the Women’s Center who also participated in DOB? Or was it pretty separate? KS: I think they were -- at least for me, they were separate. I mean, I think when there were fewer DOB meetings or when DOB really stopped operating in the way that it had, I think many people or the next generation would go to -- I don’t know if they still called them raps, at the Women’s Center. SB: Yeah. They do have raps. KS: They had a big living room there, and they had certain -- maybe once a month, also with topic, or maybe separated by age, so they’d have [35:00] leaders. And same kind of thing. Go around and -SB: They still do. KS: Yeah, they still do. SB: Yeah, yeah. KS: They still do. I haven’t been over there in years, but... SB: There was something I wanted to ask you. So you came at the end of Lois’ presidency? KS: I believe that was the case. I remember a big deal where there was, as you mentioned, that contest between Jean Koh and Stephanie, and they were always sort of mortal enemies. It was all pretty dramatic back in the day. And then I don’t know why Jean let it go, and then Stephanie soldiered on for many years and even did a Thanksgiving dinner, I remember, at one hotel, I think. I believe she paid the rent on that office for years. Then maybe there was a smaller office. [36:00] I don’t know. She’s -- she’s intense. I mean, she really doesn’t like to let things go. 18 �LJ: No. SB: So, Jean was the president after Lois. KS: Yeah. There was an election, and I think Jean became the president. LJ: Yes. At that time, we had been sort of an oligarchy. (laughs) I don’t know how that happened, but I guess it did. I’d been president for about 14 years. I’d kept it together. I was determined that the organization was going to be successful. Anyway, this isn’t about me. It’s about you. And I believe it was Jean after that. And I know that we had a formal meeting, and at that formal meeting, DOB decided that its mission had been accomplished. Stephanie did not feel [37:00] that way, so she kept it up in a way that she felt was useful. I’m sure she did a lot of good. That’s why I’ve been trying to get in touch with her, but I’ve not received any comment back from her if there is a proper number. KS: Well, that gmail address I gave you is pretty recent. I know Stephanie also went on and did quite a lot of travel with Olivia. Quite a number of trips, and I believe we’re both going to be on a trip to Italy in the fall because there’s a Facebook group, and she’s been active in it. But she doesn’t really seem to want to talk to anybody, including me. (laughter) LJ: Maybe that’s why she hasn’t responded to me. Is it stephboston? KS: I gave you a gmail address, which was new. LJ: I know. I don’t have it on me. KS: Yeah, so that was the last one. I don’t know where she’s living. She lived in Bay Village for [38:00] many years. LJ: I know that. KS: She may still live there. 19 �LJ: Do you think she lives in Somerville? KS: She did live in Somerville, and then she moved back to the city to Bay Village. And I’m really not sure where she’s living, but she’s retired from the federal government. LJ: Has she? Yeah. Well, I’ll keep trying. I had it as stephboston@gmail.com. KS: That might be it. I think that sounds right. LJ: Yeah. KS: Yeah. LJ: Yeah, well I wrote to her last week, and I haven’t heard anything so far. I never want anyone to think that I’m trying to exclude them in any way. I would like to have her in this book or whatever it’s going to turn into. So I will ask you, without being repetitious hopefully, is there anything else you’d like to say? KS: I’m trying to think. I mean it’s -- [39:00] I’ve come a long way. I think I told you back in the early years, I had gone -- seen women in my college who were gay as undergraduates and who would go on and get married. I kind of thought that’s what my life would be like, but 30 came and went, 40 came and went, and it never happened. And I’m not sorry. I don’t dislike men, but I’m very happy in relationship with women. LJ: Good, good. SB: Do you feel that being in -- I mean, you came in sort of at the end of DOB with Lois. Do you feel at that time that you felt pretty safe about being out as a lesbian? I mean, did you just think about different situations that you were in, like at work or [40:00] -- just different events or something, did you feel safer because you had been in DOB? That DOB supported you? 20 �KS: Yeah, it definitely normalized it for me. I mean, I think as I mentioned, I was a little afraid when I first came out about my family’s reaction. I was afraid to be out at work, but as the years went on, those things, those fears eased up. When I came to DOB in the mid‘80s, it was still pretty vibrant. I mean, you’d get 30 people in a room for a rap, and it was all new to me, so it was pretty exciting in those days. SB: Were your parents supportive? KS: Well, as I said, my mother was very Catholic. I think sort of what I hold on to is every once in a while, she’d get mad at me, and she’d say I don’t approve of your lifestyle, blah, blah, blah, but she loved all my girlfriends. [41:00] (laughter) That was something that they were sort of accepted as part of the family and welcome at the house or whatever. That was something that I held onto. Even the year my mother died, she and the woman I was dating at the time, they were like this. [putting two fingers together) My mother told her things she didn’t even tell me. So I think it would have been okay. LJ: Was it easier for your father, do you think? KS: Maybe. I think he was more in the world than my mother. You know, he was an attorney, so he sort of saw more things than she did. So I think possibly. Not that we ever discussed it at great length, mind you, but... LJ: No. But at least you got that feeling that he was more worldly than your mother. KS: Yeah. LJ: And his religion wasn’t holding [42:00] him back as much. KS: No. Not necessarily. LC: I have a question. KS: Okay. 21 �LC: And it may be like too big a question for the end of this as it my want. I like to ask big, philosophical questions. But particularly because of the ASC connection, Arlington Street Church, I’m just wondering what your thoughts are, looking back and even looking forward, especially since there’s been a lot of change. We can get married now, at least for a while anyway. But I’m wondering what your thoughts are about being lesbian and your spirituality. And I’m not talking religion, per se, although religion has its mores and its morals and its morality. What is that intersection [43:00] of things spiritual in being a lesbian for you in this era and with the support of groups like DOB and everything else in the Boston area that we have and that you have also helped to create? KS: Well, I think I wrestled with that as a young person quite a bit. The Catholic Church really gets its hooks into you. So at least in the early years, I was very fearful about that. And then one day, I just came to the realization that God made me and God made me this way, and I didn’t choose to be a lesbian, to be deviant or for any other reason. And who knows why any of us are gay? And I just kind of relaxed about it, and I think ASC in particular, I could [44:00] -- I could see a largely gay community in which there were people who were gay and holy, and gay and spiritual, and gay and in whose -- I was in awe of them for their service to others. So I think it really -- I started going to ASC I think in 1989 when Kim became the minister. And you could just really -- it was helpful to me in that, especially because -- I don’t think you were here, but my father was Jewish, my mother was Catholic, I was raised as a Catholic, so there was already a lot of churn for me with spirituality. So the Unitarian church was a very comfortable place for me to be. I had a friend in college who was a Unitarian and who studied to be a Unitarian 22 �minister, so I didn’t grow up knowing about the UU faith, but he sort of got me involved in it. [45:00] And it has been very helpful. LC: Great. Thank you. LJ: That’s a very interesting question. SB: That is. LJ: Maybe we’ll do -- not here, but we’ll do a riff on it at some point. Maybe a meeting of some kind. KS: And I think DOB, too, I mean just to see that there were productive members of society who were gay, and as I said, I was in my 20s in those years that I was involved. There were older women who led all different kinds of lives. It was definitely helpful and supportive. It was good to see that. LC: Certainly, faith through action, all the things you did, LASS, those actions, this action, the four of us sitting here, [46:00] are constructive, are for the good and for the God or Goddess. KS: What was that movie with -- Sling Blade. Did you ever see that movie? LJ: What was it? KS: A movie called Sling Blade. Oh, you should -- it’s a really interesting movie. It’s about this sort of developmentally disabled character, and he’s in the South, and there’s -- you really should see this movie. It’s a great movie, but there’s a gay character, and he takes an interest in this young boy. And at one point, this somewhat violent developmentally disabled character says to him ‘you don’t have to sleep with a woman to be a father to a boy.’ But it’s a really powerful scene. This movie was quite popular. It’s probably came out about 20 years ago, but it’s called Sling Blade. 23 �SB: Yeah, I can picture the actor now. [47:00] KS: Yeah. What’s his name? SB: I mean -- yeah. I always liked him, too. I always thought he was good. KS: But you know, here was this very basic person who really thought in terms of black and white for the most part, good and bad, but even he could see that this gay character was morally superior to the parents of this child and was really better off for him. I was... LJ: That’s interesting. I haven’t seen that one. KS: Now, that’s -- it’d be easy to call that up on Netflix or Prime or something. LJ: Oh yeah, yeah. LC: And not mix it up with Blade Runner. KS: No, no. (laughter) LC: What is his name? KS: Billy Bob Thornton. I remember now. SB: That’s it. That’s it. KS: Sling Blade. Let’s see what year it came out. LJ: Well, that would be a great difference than the way until recently -- [48:00] KS: 1996. LJ: -- very recently, we’ve had some films that have given new positive character to lesbians, because all I remember are the ones from the ’70s, like the ones with (inaudible) the person said -- it was a very -- not a very interesting movie. And then there were the ones where the lesbian always gets either taken out somewhere or is shot in the end or decides that she’s not gay anymore, etc. There were some very negative films in the ’50s, ’60s. LC: The Children’s Hour. 24 �KS: Oh yeah. No, very depressing. LJ: Yeah, yeah. KS: Yeah. What was that -- I’m trying to think. John Ritter was in it, and he actually played the gay character. It came out in 1996. A lot of it is a little hard to sit through. [49:00] It says mentally disabled Karl Childers, Billy Bob Thornton, is released from the mental hospital where he has spent most of his life after murdering his mother and her lover. He soon forms a bond with Frank, a boy whose father committed suicide. When Frank’s mother, Linda, let’s Karl stay at their house, her cruel boyfriend, Doyle, tries to get Karl removed. Determined to protect his friend, Karl devises a way to save Frank from years of Doyle’s abuse. I don’t know why that came to mind, but it did. I recommend it. It’s worth seeing. LJ: It would be interesting to see. LC: It’s what can happen on a human level that is so important in our -- the narrative of our lives. And now, it’s -- there’s a thing about what do we do about and with and accepting trans people? Well, we have to look at our own way of being human. And do we say [50:00] okay, well this woman now wants to be a man, but she was a woman. What is the -- not just the choice in the moment, but a kind of a structure overall that allows you to be human and not makes you be inhuman in the name of religion or anything else, just like Christianity had been, you know? SB: I mean, there’s women’s organizations that won’t accept trans women; Over 40D as far as I know still does not. KS: That’s not -- actually, they recently re-voted, but yeah, this has been a -SB: But the national chapter of OLOC does not. 25 �KS: Really? Interesting. SB: Yeah. I mean, the whole thing about that we have been so oppressed in our lives because we’re lesbians, to go out and [51:00] do that to other people, to me is just -- doesn't make any sense. KS: Well, it’s been a very divisive issue in the lesbian community and one of the things that I think contributed to the Michigan Women’s Festival ending. Personally, I am a trans advocate. I have a lot of very close, thoughtful, smart friends who feel that there should be spaces that are reserved for women born women, for that particular experience. Just like at Michigan, there was a women of color tent, and out of respect, white women didn’t enter that tent. This was a huge issue. I mean, it really -- this issue raged probably for the last 10 years of Michigan. And the year that I went was -- which was a year before the end, or the last time I went, they hadn’t -- the folks at Michigan actually had some really wonderful dialogue work [52:00] that took place between women that felt trans women shouldn’t be welcomed at the festival and women that [felt they] should. Some of it was facilitated by J. Bob Alotta who has been -- she just stepped down from her post from that big Astra Lesbian Fund in New York. But anyway, they did some incredible work there, but they’re still -- I think all of us know people that just feel strongly that these spaces and groups should be reserved for people that grew up as women. And even though I don’t feel the same way, I respect that they feel that way. SB: I guess for myself, I just remember what one woman went through at the Women’s Center back in the -- it must have been in the early ’80s. There was a trans woman. There was physical violence [53:00] against her; she was thrown out. I mean, it was just awful. 26 �KS: It is difficult for people. I mean, if you’ve friends who have transitioned, it is a kind of -maybe difficult isn’t the right word, but it is a challenging thing. I have a friend from college who recently transitioned, and it’s a shift. It’s hard to... LJ: Well, at DOB, in the ’70s, we had a long discussion about this and wrestled with ourselves, and we voted. We had a formal vote on it, and we voted if you identify as a woman, that’s fine with us. You can come, and it’s just okay. [54:00] But I guess that some women did not particularly agree with that. Of course, the vote was fairly close, and we did have some dissension over that, but it was very important to us that -- there was a woman named Martha. Martha is a man, must have been a very formal person, because there were some laughable moments that Sheri could tell you about with Martha. Martha’s physical appearance was woooo! You know, the huge, tall man, and also wearing skirts. It just -- she didn’t look like a woman. Maybe she matured to look like one, but she identified that way. Then, we had another woman who [55:00] really was -who had been a man, and she really looked like a woman by the time that she got to us, and so we just felt that way. We felt particularly -- this was in the ’70s and the early ’80s -- that there was so much angst for these people that we had a great deal of compassion for them. We didn’t want them to feel as though they were floating out in space somewhere where no one would accept them, one side or the other. So I guess we were unusual as a group that we did accept, because I knew there were many people who did not accept. That’s a very good question, which could serve as the beginnings of a whole day-long discussion. SB: Oh, sure. [56:00] LJ: So, thank you so much. 27 �SB: Thank you, Karen. KS: Oh, you're all welcome. You’re welcome. SB: It’s very good. You are so articulate. LC: Yeah. KS: Thanks. LJ: As Sarah explained, this will be transcribed, and you will have a chance to look over the transcription. If there’s anything that you wish to change or take out, that’s fine with us. This is yours, not ours. This is a piece of your life. It is not ours. The way that it will appear, we are hoping is that we’re -- with all the interviews we’re going to have, which by the time we get finished, as we’ve said, we probably hope to have 25. We might have more. We might have less. From those, we would like to [57:00] excerpt certain sections from each person’s interview. There won’t be room, I don’t think, to put total interviews in, but there will be enough to define that person. So, we’ll see where that is, and you’re giving us with your permission slip, the chance to do that. KS: Certainly. LJ: Did you have any questions you wanted to ask me? KS: No. I’m all set, if you (inaudible). Thank you for the opportunity. SB: Thank you very much. LJ: Well, thank you so much for being available and coming and spending time with us, because it’s been a little difficult to find folks. LC: Well, they’re coming out of the woodwork a little bit. It’s always in little spurts, and then nothing. 28 �LJ: I know. Little spurts and then nothing. I must tell us all, too, which most of us know, but I want you to know, is that there’s a woman named [58:00] Jenny Sullivan. You remember Jenny? KS: Oh, she was just -- I know her. I’ve been back in touch with her. She now, speaking of transgender, goes by Jzack. [Jzack is not transgender; she recently changed her name.] LJ: By Jzack, yes. And I have to get used to that. But she has done a marvelous thing. She -we got in touch with her. I think we’re trying to contact her in terms of -- excuse me. I’m having my cough. LC: Take your time, Lois. LJ: Of having -- of doing this. And she, in her response, gave us $10,000. KS: Wow. That’s amazing. LC: Yes. LJ: To put into our checking account, and we’re using it to get the interviews done. KS: Oh, great. SB: For getting them transcribed, you know, and that. [59:00] KS: Oh, nice. LC: It’s expensive. KS: Equally valuable, her photographs. LJ: I know. Yes. LC: They’re incredible. SB: You okay? LJ: And we were extremely -- I’m fine. We were extremely grateful to her. END OF KAREN SONTAG FILE 29 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sontag, Karen Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Sontag, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06-15 Description An account of the resource Interview with Karen Sontag for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Sontag, Karen; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history