https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/9a214ee0532b754caaefadf712419b13.mp3?Expires=1781740800&Signature=c2qdCsv98Un8-%7EcA-VX5iLdxy0Zb1EhmwpOuRAVPEz%7E3lqUt74EgiydZU%7Esp7U3rIGtp5uL%7E05pApGDOAz4DOe9Ca%7EQ5878h%7EPoL%7ETkl1xLRWN9tk9xpmoHzR4z9Du6JkWnosaqg48TxSsmDoliHItIcLBCddr0Hmycy71jpaFSmeT%7EpYkDvlU0215zMx8SO-oYYCrB5Ub%7EayI9wLdmTQy0qyL1z3PAPAZ1GNo60oXcxtoYaFjtb50mTnRZEpwStozeVKyVT%7EOShxjmqotIxRVoDSo0nmegTeLt%7EYOULg728ggM1Tcd0hSt5CPbbTlxf76lE2qDD2odoJS3wSE0oCQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ba5df0157b56f87ade7287e298938c90 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/b9dd6b80c16658fdfa7715a5e2ff6aa6.pdf?Expires=1781740800&Signature=Y374FnUQ3qZR8W-j10Imx19pR8dmhNZDx-blKMi3rhNetZ9wP5V%7EkaX-B%7EMqtaccq8D%7EqFMiuo%7EMcb5Zzl-qT00wtu-m4Dtut-56J8-UvhBXBtIXAMPKLWcxcxBl3iPih48RGMGOIhoFr4-5%7EIgpPOIX-ZRD8P3zylCa2Y6M1WV-VFdRMNvSRsldRNJQm3YBO6Lx5auS6%7E6xLH7eW3uEqN9pMosrWZG55CpbJjrpi1ZOWJEd7k--NDEkh9U4Dal6WTfK0pII0zFISB-Oi7ukvtCFYccQqVDPtSxjiH2CZaB-3-5DFb1a70pLrP%7EFHhBJriOKcDm9mhqYobQdu08c7w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 49927a2f91d19634978ef072de8add4c PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Loraine Sumner Interviewers: Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer February 22, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: Today is February 22, 2019, and this is Sarah Boyer. And I’m with Lois Johnson and Loraine Sumner. And Loraine is going to tell us a little bit about her life and her experiences in DOB. So take it away, Lois. LOIS JOHNSON: All righty. First, would you please give me some idea of where you’re living and your age and what your early life was like? LORAINE SUMNER: What my early life was like? LJ: Yeah. LS: Okay, my name is Loraine Sumner. I’m [00:01:00] 82 years old -- young, I should say, not old -- and I grew up in Milton. You know, very different than everybody else, okay, with a very strict mother and a father that let me do anything. Spent most of my time playing with the boys, over at the town field. Sports, okay, that was my whole life. And had my eyes on the women -- the girls, I should say, back then. And in a structured -- a little different environment than it is now. We had one gym teacher for seven -- for six, grades, okay, from 7 to 12. So lots of times in my senior year, I was called on with my lovely gym teacher, you know, which we all love, and would help out with the gym classes. Would get me out of the school, you know, out of my classes, so... And then I ended up going into Boston lots of times and volunteering in some of these little, like the little settlement houses [00:02:00] and so forth, teaching kids sports. But it was my whole life. I mean, I just ate, lived, and slept, thinking there was nothing else, until I came out to DOB and found out there were other things that were important, okay. But yeah, sort of the background. But that was it. I just, you know, lived sports. And then, of course, back then, my gym teacher tryin’ to get me to go to college. My family, of course, girls don’t go to college, you know. You know, girls have to be married. Girls 1 �have to do this. And, of course, everything girls had to do was what I did not want to do. (laughter) You know? But that’s... And I’m back living in the family home again, which I didn’t want to do but my mother had Alzheimer’s, and I had to go back and take care of her. So now I’ve got this -- that’s where I’m living, back where I grew up. LJ: Yeah. LS: Yeah, so... But I’m not in sports anymore. (laughs) LJ: Tell us what type of sports, and did you play sports, or...? LS: Yes, I did. I played. I played, I coached, I taught, and I officiated. I officiated [00:03:00] 33 years. I taught physical education for 17 years, with no college degree, okay. I had my rating at basketball when I was in high school, at Milton High School. I played for the Boston Field Hockey Association, Vermont Field Hockey Association, Rhode Island Field Hockey Association. I played for Boston Women’s Lacrosse Association. And I was involved in all that movement of the girls’ and women’s sports, back in the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, when we fought for equal pay, fought for Title IX, marched in DC-- with MIT and Harvard and Northeastern and some of the colleges in Washington, DC for Title IX, in my lacrosse tunic and my lacrosse stick, (laughter) yeah. And applied for the job at the Mass. Principals Association, and got in there, and then got... That’s where I went for 622, the same as Title IX. So I was -- [00:04:00] even though I always said I wasn’t political, but people laugh at me because here was some political moves that I was involved in. And then I also had a class action suit against the Principals Association for the equal pay of women officials, you know. And I was an honorary life member of the Boston Women Officials. And I was an official for the Boston Field Hockey and Boston Lacrosse, and also played AAU basketball, played ASA softball, traveled around. The 2 �last time I coached softball in ASA was 1976, got the team to Salt Lake City, to the national tournament. LJ: Wow. LS: Yeah. So I was, you know... But then I -- then I lost my father in ’82, and that’s when I had a big change in my life. I kind of got involved with DOB and found out there’s other things in life. Went to Cambridge College and got in there, which is interesting, because I got in and got my master’s degree without having a college degree. LJ: Really? LS: I had to -- I had to write and [00:05:00] re-write, and I had to pay for pre-master’s courses and everything. But it was a good experience for me. It was wonderful, because I was -you know, I love a challenge. And it was a good transition for me, too, you know? LJ: So [there] -LS: And I got my master’s degree without a college education, but I got it -- I got it in education but didn’t teach after that, okay. (laughter) LJ: But that was very unusual. LS: Right, yes. LJ: Yeah. LS: Yeah, so... So getting back to [some] -- you know, back in my day, I don’t think we could put a name to what we were involved with. I think things just sort of happened at the time of the moment, you know. So I was never in really any long-term relationships, but I think, you know, looking back at it now, I don’t think anybody could have tied me down. I’m too much of a -- I like to be on the go. I don’t think I’d like anybody saying to me, “No, you can’t go.” If somebody invited me to a social thing, like... You -- I -- 3 �the answer’s [00:06:00] yes, okay? And that’s me. And -- but I think -- you know, people -- I’ll go on and on, you know? But people -- I think people have to be their own self, you know? I know some -- back in -- sometimes, when we do things that people don’t like, they may not like it at the moment, but in the long term, if you stick to your guns, and they see that you’re able to survive -- and I’ve been a very depend-independent and a survivor –- they, in the long term, do respect you, you know? So, I mean, I was a lesbian. I had a daughter out of wedlock. I never sent -- I never had a resume. I never looked for a job. The jobs came after me. My students used to say to me, “Ms. Sumner, how can you take jobs a year in advance?” Like MIT, Northeastern, these people used to hire me a year in advance to officiate their games. LJ: Wow. LS: You know, that stuff made me very proud, you know, and so forth, okay. And, you know, I have a lot of things that I [00:07:00] think -- and you have to do it for yourself. Nobody comes along and does it for you. You know, when the kids used to come to me and I -and would tell me this thing and that, I said, “Listen, you’ve got to get knocked down so you know how to get up. And if you think that things are tough now, you’ve got to learn to get through it because they get worse later on, and you’re the only one that can pull yourself through these things,” you know? SB: That’s right. LS: And that’s when -SB: That’s right. LS: -- I came out to DOB, and -- in the eight-- would be the ’80s. I lost my father in ’82. LJ: Could I stop you -- 4 �LS: Sure. LJ -- for a second? Did you have feelings in your teen years about women? LS: Oh, yeah. LJ: And could you identify them? LS: Well, we didn’t know -- I don’t think we really knew how to classify anything back then. I think of all the terminology. We didn’t know what we know now. I just -SB: When was the first time that you -LS: Got involved with somebody? SB: -- realized...? LS: Really? SB: Well, no, just realized that you were not a straight person, that you, you know -- that you had [00:08:00] feelings for women, or girls. LS: I think I always knew it. In -SB: You always knew it. LS: In fact, I remember -- I can remember this family taking me to their cottage up in Billerica and so forth, and I can remember touching, you know. And I remember the girl going and telling her mother, (laughs) you know, and her mother coming after me, telling me this was a no-no. And I kept thinking... And I was so young then. I didn’t have a clue, you know. And I kept thinking, well, how can something that feels so right be so wrong, you know? LJ: I know. LS: And I think that got me my curiosity. But as I say, I was so wrapped up in sports, I didn’t think anything of any of this stuff. You know, I think later on, things just happened in 5 �the heat of the moment or whatever, you know. Because I think back, and I just knew all my life I was different. And I -- my family always treated me like I was different. You know, I had to make decisions for my family, too, you know? SB: Could you -LJ: Did you have brothers and sisters? LS: I have one. I had one sister, but she was just the opposite from me. She had a chip on her shoulder, and I was outgoing. I thought everything was fine, as far as I was concerned. [00:09:00] And she was -- she had a hard -- she had a hard track to follow. And she quit school, and she smoked, and she chased boys. And, see, I was just the opposite, for me. We were two completely opposites, yeah. And... But I had relatives that took me under their wing. I had friends that took me under their wing, you know. And I -- so I had lots of opportunity. SB: Did -- now, you just mentioned, though, that your family treated you differently. Can you say anything more about that? LS: Yeah. My father would have me doing the roof with him, fixing cars. (laughs) I did a lot of that stuff. My -- every time my aunts or relatives would go someplace, they’d take me. It was almost like they were taking me -- I don’t want to say away from my mother, but it was almost like I wondered whether my mother was one that wanted to have children. But again, a lot of people grew up that way, too, you know, because the woman wanted you out of the house. Go out and play. Those were the [00:10:00] days they were home, and this is their -- and they just wanted you out. You just come home eight o’clock, twelve o’clock, and five o’clock for your meals, and you be in by the time it gets dark. Other than that, you were free. (laughter) But, yeah, so I only had the one sister, very 6 �different, completely. Personality, everything about her was different than me. Yeah. And I had -- I had lots of mentors, with gym teachers. Milton Academy, two gym teachers over there. Dolly Sullivan was the one that got me into field hockey, you know. And there were different ones down at Bridgewater State College is where I went when I was in high school and got my basketball rating. So I had people underneath, you know, that kind of... And that helps, you know. I mean, kids do need direction -LJ: You did have some mentors. LS: -- whether you think so or not. I had mentors, yes. And one of my mentors just -- that got me involved in softball, and also one night in Hyde Park came up to me and said to me, “It’s about time you [00:11:00] took sports serious,” and went out and got me a teaching job in phys. ed. at St. Pat’s of -- in Brockton, okay. I, you know, I didn’t have any degree, but I took it. And I taught boys from the first to the eighth grade, and girls to the twelfth grade. It was Mary Pratt. I don’t know whether you’ve heard the name. She would prefer -- she used to participate in the World War II women’s baseball, when the men went away to war. She was on the Peaches, if you’ve heard that, with A League of Their Own? LJ: I’ve heard that. SB: Yeah. LJ: Yes. LS: Well, Madonna played Mary in A League of Their Own. Mary just turned a hundred years old. So she was one -- she’s from Quincy. She’s one of my mentors, okay, and I played ASA basketball -- I mean softball for her. Yeah, she just turned a hundred. I was at her birthday party in December. 7 �SB: Oh, wow. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Wow. LS: Yeah, so... LJ: That’s great. LS: Yeah, so... And then I think the different relationships in and out of were... I don’t think we knew how to classify it. I don’t think we knew what to do with it, you know? [00:12:00] I -- you know, now, I think this -- you know, I think some, even then, just said, “Well, I don’t like the lifestyle. I’d rather be married.” And some people thought it was a disease. (laughter) You know? So I don’t think, really, in my mind... And that’s why DOB was wonderful, because now I saw where I really belonged type thing. You -- I could go and talk about how I felt. And I liked the concept with Lois, because everybody was welcome. It treated -- everybody was treated the same. And we had a comfortable environment where we could go and talk. I don’t want to say we were political then, but we did go out afterwards, social. But we would all kind of talk about how we were feeling, talk about coming out, talking about different -- in the lesbian and -- world and so forth. So it was a wonderful experience and a wonderful time for me. And when -- and, of course, when Lois got out of it, I got out of it [00:13:00] because my friend was gone. (laughter) But I like that. See, to me, I think everybody should be treated the same. I think everybody should be... And that was one -- that was the other thing I liked about you, Lois, and going to DOB. I mean, other groups we know out there, but, you know -and some of them back then wasn’t because they were trying to discriminate. A lot of them were afraid of losing jobs. They were in job situations, and they came out into the 8 �women’s groups. Like, I knew them from colleges, and I was officiating their games, and I’d see them out with GPW or someplace else, you know. They really didn’t want to admit it. LJ: Oh, no. LS: But it was because of their job situation. So it was a tough time, I mean, back then, because you couldn’t. See, now, I don’t think it would matter in a lot of places, although we are still discriminated -- I mean, there’s still discrimination out there, whether it’s directed at us or the blacks or whatever. But I think we’re more -- things are more accepted now and more open than they were back then, you know? LJ: [00:14:00] How did you find out about DOB? LS: That’s what I was trying to think of. I probably read something someplace. I’m trying to think of who it was or who I was connected with that may have gone out there at the time. But don’t forget, I was at Cambridge College. I was having a tough time. I would leave early in the day and roam around Harvard Square. I probably read something and ended up at the church. LJ: Probably, yeah. LS: -- and ended up at the church room there sometime, because I can’t remember anybody that made the connection for me. But yeah, it was probably at Cambridge Coll-- when I was at Cambridge College, yeah. LJ: I know that you were present at a lot of the raps. Did you get into other activities at DOB? LS: Well, we did a lot of social stuff. We went out to a lot of dances, and we did go... And a lot of -- after our rap meetings and what have you, we used to go out to pizza, or out to eat, 9 �so there was a lot of, you know... And I did go [00:15:00] out to the bisexual meeting with Robin. I kept thinking -- do you remember my friend, Naomi Kabakow? LJ: I think so -LS: She -- well anyway, yeah, I dragged her to... Robin Oaks was going to come over. Remember, I did the first Tuesday rap leader for you? LJ: Yes, I remember that. LS: And I used to get speakers to come in for nothing to speak to us. So I had Robin Oaks coming in. I said, ‘Well, I better get out there and see what this is all about and meet her’ (laughter) because I didn’t know who she was. But she was a lovely, lovely lady. But it was so funny. And we get there, and they asked Naomi, “What is she doing here?” She - “I don’t know, she dragged me,” (laughter) she says. And so anyway, she came. But it was so funny. She did come, and she was a nice lady, and a lot of people did relate to her, you know. But -SB: Who was she? LS: She was in the bi-- she was the head of the bisexual group at the time. I don’t know where she is, but she was a lovely lady. But it was so funny, because I think now I’m walking into another world, (laughter) you know. And I brought Naomi with me, yeah. Yeah, so... Yeah, so I did the first Tuesday. And then we had a mothers group for a while. [00:16:00] Remember Barbara Smith? LJ: We had a mothers group. LS: Barbara Smith was the one I got from Braintree to do that. LJ: Yes, she was the -LS: She was a teacher at Braintree High School. 10 �LJ: Mm-LS: And she came and did the mother’s group. LJ: Yeah. LS: Yeah, because -LJ: Yes, we had at least 10 or 12 from -LS: Right. LJ: -- of varying things -LS: Right. LJ: -- which people participated in. Some slided from -- slid from one group to the other. LS: To another, right. But we -- back then I had -- I belonged to -- I remember when I belonged to seven women’s groups. I had a group on the South Shore called SELF, Southeastern Lesbian Friends. And then there was GPW, remember? And then it was OLE, Broad Horizons. But there -- I remember one time counting -- somebody speaking to me, and I remember counting seven women’s groups I belonged to. And then they all disbanded. (laughter) LJ: I know. LS: But some of them went into relationships, and when they go into relationship, not that you lose contact but you lose the social aspect of being with them, you know, [00:17:00] because now they’re in a different place, spot, you know. But every once in a while we run into people, you know, and sometimes I try to look up people on Facebook, just like Jenny looked me up. She found -- she saw my picture on Facebook. LJ: Jenny? LS: Jenny Sullivan. That I -- 11 �LJ: That’s right. LS: She -- you connected with her. LJ: I need to get her information. LS: Did -- well, I gave her your information, and I gave you her information. LJ: I know you did. I’ll have to have it repeated. (laughs) LS: And she... She changed. She changed now. You saw what her name is, Jzach something, yeah. But she has lots of DOB pictures for you. And she went on to have children, too. And she’s in a relationship. And she still does photography from out of Manhattan. Lives in Long Island and also has a place, or stays in Florida. But she’s on email and Facebook. LJ: Good. LS: And she’s got lots of pictures for you, she said. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Wonderful. LS: Okay? SB: Wonderful. LS: And she just happened to find me on Facebook. LJ: That would be great. LS: Yeah, she said, [00:18:00] “Do you remember me?” And I said -SB: That’s great. LS: -- “Oh, yeah. I remember you.” Yeah. SB: That’s great. LJ: That’s wonderful. 12 �LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LJ: So did you meet anyone at DOB as a special person? LS: (pause) No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I don’t -LJ: Okay. LS: Not -- nobody that I was involved with, I don’t think, no. LJ: No, (inaudible), yeah. LS: No, I don’t -- no, I don’t think so. Most of the people I was involved with were involved with the sports, how things happened. No, I don’t think any of them -- we were -- some were friends. We had a good time -- we had good times. Some of it -- there was a couple of them who had been married three times, and I said, why would anybody get married once, let alone three times? (laughter) Do you remember? Do you remember? There were a couple -LJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LS: There were a few of them. LJ: I remember that. LS: One, I used to drive in all the time. But I used to say, and I can’t believe anybody would get married once. I said, I refuse to do it. (laughter) I said, I c-LJ: I just refuse. LS: Yeah, I just refuse, yeah. (laughter) And there were -- there were a couple of them. And I kept saying, why the hell would anybody do that? [00:19:00] But anyway, yeah. LJ: So that was, I guess... I’m trying to remember when we disbanded. I think it was the early ’90s. LS: Early -- I was going to say, early ’90s, I think it was. 13 �LJ: Yeah, yeah. LS: Right, it was when you dropped out. And then it became political or something, or... And we weren’t a political group. We were a very compassionate social group, a supportive group back then. But we weren’t radically out there. The only thing I think we did was Pride. That was about it. LJ: Yeah. LS: I don’t think we got involved in much else at the time. We were more a supportive group when we were there, and a social group when we all went out afterwards. That’s basically it, yeah. Yeah. LJ: Right. There was something else I wanted to ask you here. Could you tell us just a little bit more about your background and your [00:20:00] mother and father? What kind of work did your father do? And you always lived in Milton? LS: Yes, mm-hmm. LJ: Yeah, mm-hmm. LS: I -- yes, I always lived in Milton. My father was a hard-working laborer that had to quit school at the eighth grade and went out and worked for the -- worked -- and then worked for the Town of Milton, on the Water Department, as it was back then. His father and his grandfather worked for the Highway Department. So we were real townies. My mother came from a large family, who originated from Nova Scotia. Father came down to find jobs for the railroad. And they had 13 in their family, so... And kind of a tough breed. But anyway, I think that’s another burden I had when my father took ill, was now I had my mother to contend with. And then I had her sister that never married, and sort of had the responsibility of them, you know? So... [00:21:00] But my father was a wonderful 14 �person but not very intelligent, you know, I mean... But -- not book sense, but could fix and do anything, you know. And in ’93, I had to go back and take care of my mother with Alzheimer’s. She had severe Alzheimer’s. Didn’t even know who I was. And I had to go back and take care of her. I had one daughter I brought up alone. So I was a workaholic. I worked -- you know, officiated. I taught at -- I’d take -- bus drivers, drive ice cream trucks, or anything. I worked all the time. I loved working. And I even remember babysitting for 10 cents an hour when I was 10 years old. I worked from -since I was 10 and babysat. I just loved working. So I -- and I am sort of that way still. I have -- I have a calendar, and I keep myself very busy. I do not do well with idle time, although when I finished, after I left -- after DOB and a lot of that, the change in my life when I bought the travel agent -- it took me [00:22:00] seven years to learn to sit still. I’m doing great now. (laughter) Seven years of -- I had therapy and everything. I had acupuncture. I had stretching my neck muscles out because I had such headaches. But it was my body going so fast, my head trying to tell me to slow down. Yeah, so, yeah, that’s sort of some of my background. But I was -- I mean, as I say, with my father, we’d be fixing cars. We’d be doing the roof. We’d be... (laughter) Not that my mother liked it, but -- she probably would rather have me in the house, but that was not my thing. I’d rather be out, yeah, so... But anyway, but my mother came from a large family, and my father came from a large family, too. But they had nothing. They had nothing. We were... I mean, we -- well, you did, too. You grew up during the Depression. LJ: Yeah. SB: Right. LS: You were lucky to have what you had, and you were thankful for it. 15 �LJ: Yeah, that’s right. SB: Right. LJ: Yeah. LS: I mean, nowadays we hear so many people complaining -SB: I know. LS: -- and you wonder what the hell they’re -- what they’re complaining about. (laughter) SB: Right. LS: You know, I mean, [00:23:00] I grew up in -- I mean, two -- saw two families that had nothing. Well, I was happy, (laughs) you know? LJ: Which is a good commentary on your life. LS: Right, yeah, yeah. SB: Really is. LS: And I’m very conservative. If anything breaks down, I go to the attic or the cellar and look and see if I have another one, because I don’t throw anything away. (laughter) But everything’s out of the way. You wouldn’t even know it. But anyway, yeah, here... But, you know, those are the things that we grow, and some of -- I think back then, we were lucky. We really were. We were lucky, you know. LJ: Well, we went a different way -LS: We went -LJ: -- than today’s children. LS: Right. There’s too much negative. You listen to the t-- it’s negative, everywhere. And... Yeah, right, yeah. So, yeah, so that’s about -- well, I bought a -- and then I brought my daughter up alone, okay, so that was another thing. I left the house, and I bought a 16 �mobile home down in Hingham for a while. And then I was in Abington when I used to go to DOB. I bought a house in Abington. Right after that, I bought a cottage down in [00:24:00] Lakeville. And GPW used to have their cookouts there in the summertime. LJ: Really? LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SB: Was GPW Gay...? LS: Gay Professional Women. SB: Professional Women, okay. LS: Right. LJ: Yeah. LS: And what happened to that group, too -- I was there the day that it disbanded. We were at the UU church in Braintree, and they were announcing nobody would step forward to do any work. And the same people, they get worn out. You can’t go on forever. Everybody has to have a change in their life. They’ve got to go on to, you know, other things, and so forth. And everybody, blasé. Back then, (laughs) people were just quiet. They just laid back, let everybody do the work. And nobody would step forward, okay? Now, they’re very critical. But anyway, GPW fell apart. I was right there that night, yeah. And that’s what happened to a lot of them. What happened to my SELF group was they wanted me to throw certain people out of the group. I said, “No, if I can’t run anything that’s open to everybody, I’m not running it at all.” And I dropped it, right like that. So it was the times -SB: Wow. LS: -- you know. I -- 17 �LJ: [00:25:00] Which group was that? LS: That was the SELF group, Southeastern Lesbian Friends, that I ran. I had a huge group down there. I even had a couples group. I had a mothers group. I had a card group. I had all kinds. But they wanted me to throw certain people out. SB: Who’s they? LS: The people in my group. SB: They wanted you to throw -LS: Right, certain other members, because they didn’t like them. One lady had -- and I -- you know, one lady had a tough time, mental issues, okay. But again, you don’t throw people out of groups. LJ: No, you don’t. SB: Right. LS: That’s what your groups are for. SB: Right. LS: They’re, they’re -LJ: Yeah. LS: And you treat -- that’s what I liked about Lois. And I said I’d stay as long as Lois stayed, okay, because you treat everybody the same, and everybody was welcome. And that’s the way these groups should be. They shouldn’t be cliquey, okay? And I think that’s what happened. Some groups got negative. Some groups couldn’t find people to run it. Some people got -- some of them got political. And they kind of disbanded, you know? SB: Yeah, yeah. LS: You know, even OLE. Look at how they struggled. 18 �LJ: Oh, I know. LS: They struggled, too, and -LJ: For a long time. LS: -- Poor [00:26:00] Carol Rizzo tried to keep it going for the longest time, and she -LJ: Right. LS: Yeah, she -LJ: You can’t do it forever. LS: You can’t do it forever. And then she ended up with cancer and passed away. You know, God love her, you know, but again... Yeah, so it’s kind of a shame. LJ: So when I met you -LS: Yeah. LJ: -- you were doing travel work. Would you please talk about that? LS: Sure. When I... (laughs) When I came out of Cambridge College and graduated, I -- they had me totally looking at things from a different perspective, okay? They wanted me to think of what I was going to do to help me out, instead of continuing my life to think I can help everybody else. I thought I could save the world when my father died. So I kind of laid back and didn’t take any leadership roles back then at Cambridge College, okay. And [one professor] gave me an A-, and I went up to him and I told him, “I’ve been a leader all my life. What’s this?” And he said to me, “You see, you didn’t raise your hand. When I was asking for volunteers, you wouldn’t raise [00:27:00] your hand.” He says, “Now, did you see that?” So he said, “Now, what are you going to do in your life?” And he says, “What do you want to do?”, you know, he said to me. And I’m thinking -- I think, well, I’m going to travel. So what did I do? I saw this ad for a travel 19 �agency, for $45,000, called Friends in Travel. (laughter) Had no idea of the travel business. Had none whatsoever. So I came out with my college degree, with a master’s in education. SB: Amazing. LS: Had taught physical education for 17 years. Administration drove me out, not the kids. I loved the kids. It was the administration that drove me out. So anyway, I saw this ad and got an attorney down in Brockton. He had some debt from being embezzled by another manager. She cut, so I had no responsibility on that, okay. And I bought one that... He was from -- Lebanese, okay, from Lebanon. And I bought the agency from him in the Dedham/West Roxbury line, [00:28:00] called Friends in Travel. And I ran that for almost 20 years. And that’s where I learned to sit still, after I wasn’t... But sometimes, running part-time jobs, or doing officiating. But I had some people in the office that were there, that I kept the same staff till they disappeared, okay. But they were all foreigners, you know? And so I ran that for almost 20 years, yeah. Later on, I ran it basically by myself at the end. Yeah. LJ: Did you -LS: And I did have a travel school there, too, for a while, but I didn’t own the travel school. Another lady from New Hampshire -- I was the onsite director, and I taught travel. And I used those people as my outside salespeople, so they were bringing me in business, too. So I did that for almost 20 years, yeah. LJ: Because I remember that as the main identification, travel agent. (laughs) LS: Yeah, they’re a thing -- they’re almost like a thing of the past now. There’s not as many around, because people do it online. 20 �LJ: Well, everybody goes online. LS: Online, [00:29:00] right, I do, too. You know, I do, too. Yeah. LJ: So what, just out of curiosity, what kind of travel did you do? Was it European? Was it all over the place? LS: Oh, I would sell whatever came in my -- to my door. (laughs) But a lot of it was the TNT, GWVs, charters to the Caribbean and stuff, because they were -- you know, people could afford it. I had a lot of people that were very ill. And I would try -- you know, convince them. I’d keep their rates down, and they’d travel more often, okay? I had some people that were traveling, like, five and six times a year. They’d just get away. But they were ill. They were, you know... And I would try to convince them, “You’ve got to do it now, while you can. (laughs) I mean, later on you’re not going to be able to do it.” And I had a lot of repetitious... And I used to book, with my outside salespeople, like, 80-some-odd people to Iceland for a long weekend, you know, things like that. And I did a lot of traveling. I -- that was the other thing: I have my goals, and I did every one of them. I mean, like an African [00:30:00] safari. I did a lot of adventurous stuff. I did the bobsled in Lillehammer. I climbed -- I hiked the glaciers in Alaska, you know. I climbed the Great Wall in China, you know. I cross-country skied in -- I don’t even know where I was in Norway, you know, with no guide or anything. So I did a lot of adventurous stuff. But that’s what I did. That -- so I -- before I let the agency go, I did all my lifetime dreams there, which was reasonable, because I got them all at an agent rate or a family trip, or for nothing. Some of -- you know, for nothing. My most expensive trip was the African safari for $1,800, which was probably an $8,000 trip. SB: That was nothing! (laughs) 21 �LS: Yeah, right, yeah. So... And I’ve been on almost 30 cruises, you know. But then it was a struggle, because the business was less and less. People were booking on the internet, and, of course, you don’t have the same people around. You know, they soon pass away, and you lose them. And the younger -- you didn’t [00:31:00] have the feeder system. See, with everything you’re doing, whether it’s groups, you have to have that feeder system. You’ve got to have the new people coming in. And if you don’t have that... And that’s where the school helped, for a while, but then the school disbanded, too. We didn’t get the -- you know, enough to make that financially worth her while to run it, because she lived in New Hampshire. So, you know, if you don’t have that feeder system going, as people leave, now your groups and numbers are lower and lower, you know? So now, what I do, Lois -- You want me to tell you what I’m doing now? LJ: Certainly. I’d like to know. LS: It’s nice, but it’s very hard. Well, it’s not hard. It’s emotionally hard. I run around to places like this and Councils on Aging. And I teach games. I teach card games. I teach back alley bridge. I teach mah jong. I’m heavy into mah jong. I travel around to tournaments, try and win food and money or whatever. But I do. I go to different complexes. I teach Rummikub, [00:32:00] whatever game they want. I’ll go in and teach them. The only thing is, you know what you see? It’s the decline. When you taught children, you saw progress. Like last night, one of my -- we only had two men in my Wednesday mah jong group at the Milton Council on Aging. Lovely, lovely, lovely gentlemen. Both of them married. Played mah jong with me all the time. One passed away two weeks ago with cancer, and one just passed away last night. So, as I say, emotionally -- 22 �LJ: It’s difficult. LS: -- it’s difficult. And it’s difficult when you teach somebody something, and, you know, a couple of months later, they come in, and somebody comes to you and said to you, “You have to teach this one how to do it.” I said, “I already taught them.” Their mind is going. They don’t know. You have to help them. I can’t take them aside and criticize them. They’re failing. So it’s a whole different world out there now. LJ: It is. (laughter) It is a whole different world. LS: It’s a whole different world everywhere, yeah. But emotionally, it’s hard, yeah, seeing seniors and seeing people [00:33:00] deteriorate and so forth. It’s hard. Yeah. LJ: Well, mah jong is a game which is played here. LS: Is it? Yeah, right, yeah. LJ: It’s... They play with quite a few people -SB: Do you know how to play, Lois? LJ: What? SB: Do you know how to play? LJ: No, not yet. LS: They play the American version, with the card. Do they? LJ: I think they do. LS: Yeah, they probably do. LJ: And some of them have tiles. LS: Oh, yeah. There’d be tiles. You play with tiles, and you play with the card. I even play two hands at the same time, 27 tiles. I’ve got people playing Siamese mah jong with me now, okay? (laughter) Twenty-seven tiles at the same time. But there is another version 23 �called Asian. If they’re Asian people, they play because they want to gamble quick. So they play this game, and it’s faster. They don’t use the card. But see, I like the card because it’s good for... I’m trying to keep people’s minds going. LJ: Yeah. LS: You know? LJ: This is very much of a Jewish -LS: Yes, it is. LJ: -- population. LS: Right, right. LJ: And it’s very much of a Jewish game. LS: Yes, community. So you -SB: It’s a game, yeah. LS: They would play the American version. LJ: Yeah, it’s a community game. LS: They’d play -- and [00:34:00] every year, we have to buy a new card, and we have to learn it all over again. Right now, I could play the old card without my card. I could play mah jong without it. But when the new card comes out, now, I’ve got... See, it’s good for my mind, because now I’m going to learn everything all over again. Yeah, it would be -- the Jewish community would be the American version, yeah, yeah. LJ: So that’s a wonderful thing that you’re doing for people. LS: Right, right, yeah, right. LJ: You’re going around the whole Boston area. 24 �LS: I travel -- right. Oh, I do. Well, wherever. I won’t -- don’t stay for long. I mean, I just stay long enough to teach them till somebody else can sort of be their -- the ringleader. I teach at the Milton Library two nights a week. I’m going to start at some senior complex in Stoughton next month, on Friday afternoon, teaching them whist, okay. I do it at the Milton Council on Aging. I do it at a Jewish community up in -- Firemen’s up in Randolph. I go up there, and teach them. LJ: In Randolph, yeah. LS: I’ve taught them hand and foot, and mah jong, and whist, yeah. People love to see me come back, because I’m very talkative, and I get, you know. And I -- oh, Quincy Council on Aging. [00:35:00] I’ve done that, yeah. So I try -- that’s what I do, mm-hmm. LJ: You are so full of energy. (laughter) LS: Oh, I know it. That’s what everybody keeps saying to me. Of course, some of them -- I mean, you know, they’re -- it’s the age factor, and they look at me, and they say, “Where do you get all the energy?” And I kept saying, no wonder my mother couldn’t stand me. (laughter) No wonder she couldn’t stand me. Because I’m on slow compared to what I used to be. I couldn’t even sit still. You know, if -- years ago -- this is no lie -- if you were interviewing me years ago I’d be pacing, because I couldn’t sit. Yeah, see. SB: I can understand that. (laughter) LS: Right, yeah. LJ: Yes. I can. LS: I don’t know where it comes from, but it’s not nervous energy, because I’m not nervous at all. I just -LJ: No. 25 �LS: -- I just -- I’ve just always been active, always have. I’m still out shoveling by hand a huge driveway in Milton, and nobody helping me. LJ: Wonderful, (laughter) wonderful. LS: Yeah. LJ: So I remember your saying that you were selling that house -LS: Well -LJ: -- at some point, but [00:36:00] obviously you haven’t. LS: I keep debating on it. Yeah, I keep debating on it. I keep debating. You know what the problem is? I really don’t know where I want to go. And if I really look at my life, I’ve - all my life, I’ve struggled. The only thing I was happy with, as long as I kept busy, and as long as I had food on the table and a roof over my head, I was a happy camper. Right now, I can say, not that I was smart and did it better back then, thinking of it, but I’m really living financially free, which -- the first time in my life. I mean, I’ve always lived and been very conservative. And now, hey, you want it, you can have it, you know. (laughter) But, I mean, yeah, because -- I’m really living financially free. So it’s a tough decision. And even though people said to me, “Now listen, you know that house would pay for you the rest of your life,” I said, “I know, but I intend to live forever. I don’t...” (laughter) You know? I mean, you know, granted, it might, but... And I keep thinking, you know... But then I have the rent on the other side. I have good tenants. And I have my daughter living there, and she pays me. And I keep saying, [00:37:00] why -SB: Are you happy there? LS: Well, yes and no. I’d rather be on my own. I’m not too happy. And then I keep thinking, you know, well, I’m not going to be in this big house by myself. You know, so, you 26 �know, I’m -- as I’m saying, it’s this -- you know, I keep saying sell it and get out, you know? And then I really -- I keep looking around, but then I don’t know where I want to go. And, you know, you look at these places, and some of the modular homes are nice, and I do like them, all one floor, open plan. I could just see me entertaining. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LS: This would be wonderful, right. But, you know, you get to these people, and, you know, you watch a couple walk in and, (snaps) boy, that salesperson will drop you like a hot potato. You know, or you -- you know, you check out the rules. I still hang my clothes outdoors, on my mother’s old clothesline. (laughs) You can’t do that if you go anywhere else. SB: Oh, no kidding! LS: You have to use a dryer. I’ve never used a dryer yet. (laughter) You know, and you have these little things, that me -- and I’m an outdoor person, and I love -- that’s [00:38:00] why I like my cottage. I had a wooden screen house there. I have a gazebo now. But, you know, you can’t fence in a place. You can’t -- you know, and there’s lots of things you can’t do. SB: Lots of rules. LS: There’s lots of rules, and not only that but maintenance keeps going up and up and up, and people, you know -- now they have a problem. And, I mean, I don’t have -- I might have had financial problems when I went buying everything, you know, and so forth, but I don’t have any financial problems now. So do I want to...? Yeah, I keep saying, you know, if we’re living like this, what difference...? So I rent cottages, and I travel. LJ: Yeah. 27 �SB: Yeah. LJ: Well, you’re still -LS: You know... LJ: -- in the area of someone 20 years younger than you, at least, you know, 25 years ago, where you’re doing things. You’re happy. You’re active. LS: Right. Oh, absolutely. I love everything I do. If I didn’t like it, I wouldn’t do it. And -but the minute I had problems on a job, I moved, because I didn’t care. I had so much [00:39:00] work, (laughs) you know? Yeah, right. You know, right, and you have to be happy. You have to enjoy what you’re doing, right. Oh, I did. I worked last -- oh, last Christmas. What did I do? You know, I got an email. This is really funny. I got an email, and it was from Jordan’s Warehouse, okay? I don’t know why they’re emailing me, but it was from the Enchanted Village, for a Christmas job. So I didn’t delete it, and I kept thinking about it, thinking about it, so I answered it. I said, well, if they’re going to hire me at my age... (laughs) Well, they said -- told me to come in. I went in for an interview. Oh, they’d love to have me. I went in for orientation, and they kept saying, “Oh, I hope you’ll come to work here.” So I said -- I had to do up a resume. Other young ones -- they’re mostly high school kids -- you know, they had to get working papers. They looked at me. I didn’t need working papers. (laughter) I had to do a resume. I said, “I’ve never done a resume in my life. And everybody I worked with -there’s nobody around anymore. [00:40:00] Nobody had emails then.” I said, “And I’ve been mostly independent all my life. Who am I going to get?” So you know what I did? I took one of the guys that worked for the town that I taught mah jong -- he works for the Town of Milton -- I said, “Here, Philip, would you fill this out and see if I can get a job 28 �(laughter) being an elf for Santa at the Enchanted Village?” He says to me, “What do I write?” I said, “You just write that I volunteer. I’m a senior, and I volunteer.” (laughter) I didn’t know what else to do. That was the truth. So he did. And you know what he did? He put -- I smile all the time. And you know what one of their requirements was? That you smile and you’re on time. I said, “I’ve got this made.” And do you know, I went there, and some of those kids would be like this. And they’d be doing a funny story, trying to liven people up and get them to smile, you know. And they went around, and what’s everybody doing? And they got to me. “I’m here for fun.” (laughter) And by the end of the time, I had the kids waving and smiling to me. And I did, I worked for Enchanted Village November and December. SB: Great. That’s great. LJ: So what did you dress [00:41:00] in? Did you have a costume? LS: Oh, yeah. Well, you didn’t think I went ordinarily. I -- we had red shirts, and we had to wear black pants and black shoes. But I had reindeer glasses with (laughter) antlers. I had a red nose. I was Rudolph. And I had all these lights that blink and went on and off and everything else, yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So you didn’t think I would go normally. Yeah. LJ: That’s wonderful. LS: So I had a grand time. And -LJ: Good. LS: -- and you can -- these young ones, they were so funny. They were hoping I’d come back next year. I will. LJ: Well, I hope so. 29 �LS: But I won’t -- I gave them four days a week. It was a little bit too much. (laughter) LJ: Four days of red noses. LS: I know it, yeah! SB: Four days of kids! Kids! LS: Well, no, it didn’t -- that didn’t bother me. I loved that. SB: Oh, no? LS: You know, we’re supposed to be here, greeting people. Next thing, they’d see me. It’s up and down the line, talking to everybody. (laughter) But -- and they loved it. They knew that. They’d laugh at me. They said that’s okay, because they knew I was entertaining people, keeping people from getting upset being in line, you know? So it was so [00:42:00] funny, no. I had -- they had a -- they laughed, and everybody hoped I’d come back. They threw a big party for us, too. LJ: That’s wonderful. LS: Yeah. So I was an elf for Santa. LJ: I want to know if they gave you a dozen blueberry muffins from Jordan’s. LS: They did give us muffins. They didn’t give us a dozen, but sometimes they’d have some of them leftover and they’d leave them there. We could take them home, yeah. LJ: Wonderful. LS: Yeah. Sometimes -- or we could eat them there. Yeah, right. And then we -SB: That’s funny. The Jordan Marsh blueberry muffins. LS: Right. LJ: Yes, yes. LS: Right, yeah. 30 �SB: They still put them out? LS: They still make them. LJ: They put them out. LS: Yeah, yeah. SB: I didn’t know that. LS: Yeah, they do. (inaudible) During the season, they’re there. SB: Wow. LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SB: Wow. LS: So that’s what I did November and December this year. I went back to work (laughs) -LJ: That’s terrific. LS: -- as an elf for Santa. Yeah, yeah. LJ: The elf. LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LJ: Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, you’ve given us a lot of information. Let’s see.... SB: Could I ask a question, [00:43:00] Lois? LJ: Yes. Yes, indeed. SB: There’s a couple of questions about DOB that I’d like to know. LS: Mm-hmm, right, yeah. SB: Now, other people have talked about the baseball games. You must have been involved in those. LS: No. SB: You weren’t? 31 �LS: No. I had been involved in it all my life. And what happened to me, when... I was the head of things and I trained everybody, and when my father took ill, I -- it was six months with him with cancer. And I had to lug my mother every day; [she] wouldn’t even talk to my father. It was just an awful time. And I don’t want to say people were mean to me, but a lot of the people who were religious or nuns were the first ones that -- my good friends, that never gave me any support. There was a lot of stuff like that that really bothered me at the time. And that’s why I really needed... So that’s when I more or less got out of it, okay. SB: I see. LS: You know, when [00:44:00] people came to me, and I was the head of the board, and somebody had... I would waiver their testing. You know, every year we had to be tested, but if -- I would give them -- I would waiver it for the following year and just not take away their rating. SB: For who now? Who are you talking about? LS: Well, when we -- whatever organization it was. It happened to have been the south suburban board that I had started on volleyball, and it happened to be the Boston Field Hockey Association. It’s not the hockey association itself; it’s the officials. See, the off... But there was -- there reasons behind it. See, I was out of the public sector, and I felt that everybody should be invited, and that’s how you build your -SB: Right, but I’m talking about the baseball games that they used to have -LS: Right, in DOB. SB: -- down -- for DOB. 32 �LS: No, because at that -- when all of that happened, I kind of got out of the sports. That was -it did me in. I -- they made me go and take a test when I wasn’t even in the right frame of mind, and I didn’t pass it. And I got up, and I said, there’s a message here. [00:45:00] And I just -- I got out of it. So whatever went on... And the fun games were not my thing. I was very competitive. I did do some fun stuff for the Boston Parks and Recreation and CYO, but that was back a way. But when you... And I had to really psych myself out to, you know, to -- not to be so tough on them, you know. But when you do things competitive, it’s hard to go back. When you do recreation for the fun of it at the beginning, you know, that’s okay. But when you get to this point in your life, you’ve either got to keep moving on, but you can’t go back and play for the fun of it. They play -- and the other thing was they did slow pitch. Slow pitch was too -- you know, that... I did fast pitch. SB: Ah! LS: Okay? SB: I never could have played with you. (laughs) LS: Well, see, slow pitch is even harder to officiate, because you don’t know where the ball’s going to hatch before it gets to the plate. With slow pitch, you’ve got it coming in. And, you know... So, to me, to go play for the fun of it, at [00:46:00] that point of -- and -okay. And it was a tough... So at that time was -- you know, that wasn’t my thing. I wanted to do something different than the sports, yeah. SB: Okay. And the other question I had was -- now, you were a rap leader. LS: Yes, right. 33 �SB: Can you -- can you think of any experiences that were really different, you know, like -- or difficult for you when you were doing it? I mean, it wasn’t -- it couldn’t have been... I know you’re a leader. LS: Yeah. SB: You’re definitely a leader, but -LS: Right, yeah. SB: -- like, was it... Was -- how did you do it? How did you...? LS: I really didn’t... Well, you know, some... Well, how did I do it? I didn’t have any really pro-- I can’t remember any problems. I had some interesting things that might have happened, but I didn’t have any real problems. I mean, there were -- you know, with anything. I think it was before people started to get very complainey and negative, you know, before that -SB: Sure. LS: -- [00:47:00] on TV, everything, you know, came over. Because I think we sort of -- I’m type -- the type of person that goes with the flow type thing, you know. And, you know, if this one said something, I wouldn’t go say anything. I’d just talk to this one. You know what I mean? So, you know, you don’t make an issue out of anything. Sometimes, you just have to let things slide rather than, you know... So I -- sort of that -- a peacemaker, probably, you know, more so. We all have to get along. We all have our differences. We’re all -- come from different places, you know. And the reason we’re here is, you know, to unite and be able to talk freely and support one another. So I never really had an issue. I had some interesting things when, sometimes, in -- I remember when one lady came out, and I think she came out to DOB. And I said, “Oh, you know, 34 �don’t worry. I’ll take you places and introduce you.” And we went to see... And she had -- and she had four young ones. And I went to her house one time. And [00:48:00] she had some mental issues, too. But anyway, it was funny. She had two twins in a -- in a crib. And I take her to this concert, because we were used to going to concerts, you know. Do you remember Betsy Rose? I still keep in touch with her, from California. SB: Betsy Rose! LS: Right, she -SB: Oh my God! LS: Oh, I loved her. Oh, I loved her. Betsy Rose, I -SB: That rings a bell. LS: Yes, it does, and she’s on Facebook with me. SB: Wow. LS: I follow her when she’s doing her shows. So anyway -- and I kid her about some of her records, her music, because I still have them at home. But anyway, I took this woman to Casselberry and Dupree. We got to the concert. Lois, I didn’t know anybody there to introduce her to. I said, “You, come... Here’s a stranger. (laughter) You come with me.” Now, she’s young. I mean, I’m older, you know. “You come with me, and I’ll introduce you to some people.” That was the first time, before I brought her to DOB. I took her to Casselberry and Dupree. We’re at this place with all these women, and I didn’t know anybody there to introduce her. (laughter) She must have thought... But I still keep in touch with her [00:49:00] today, but she’s been in a long-term relationship, and they even got married many years ago, down at the UU church in Braintree. And she still keeps in touch with me. So there were fun things like that. But as far as any issues or problems, 35 �no. No. No, no. The only thing, I think, after you left, it got a little political there, voting for one or the other, you know. That’s not my thing. You know, as I say, I liked Lois’ philosophy: everybo-- open the door, everybody’s welcome. Treat everybody the same, you know, type thing. Yeah. Yeah, you know. SB: Thank you. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Thank you very, very much. LS: Oh, you’re welcome. You’re welcome. LJ: Oh, my. Is there anything else you would -SB: Yes. LJ: -- like to add to that, to...? LS: Well, I thank you for the... It was a wonderful time and a wonderful experience out there, when, you know, we met some nice people, and we did. There’s a few people once in a while I hear from, but not all the time, socially. But we do lose that social contact now, with our own -- you know, our lesbian friends, because people are here, there, and [00:50:00] everywhere, you know? Yeah. LJ: Were you ever in a long-term relationship? LS: If I was lucky to make it to seven years, I’d raise the flag. (laughs) Yeah, not really, no. Maybe seven years, I did have a relationship. LJ: A number of people for shorter relationships? LS: Shorter, yeah, right, yeah. Just, you know... Yeah. A lot of fun. I’m a lot of fun to be with, but I don’t know whether you can make me settle down. (laughter) She’d just tell me I can’t go out with my friends, and that would be the end of that. Yeah. 36 �SB: Don’t you think, back then, I just remember feeling like people -- women seemed to be much more possessive back then than they are now. To me, anyway, they just seem to be. LS: I don’t know. I don’t even think back then we knew what to do with everything. We didn’t really see that there was a -- there was a future. I mean, I remember some that - you know, would sit down and say to me, you know, “I love you, but [00:51:00] I don’t want this type of life. I want to go on and marry.” You know, this -- it wasn’t the norm, I guess, for some people. But I think, you know, if we knew what we -- what we knew now, maybe it might have been different. I don’t know, you know. SB: It was kind of a protection, it seemed to me, that if you found somebody, you wanted to hang on to them, because, well, you were getting, you know... It was a protection for you. LS: Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I never -SB: I mean, I remember -LS: Right. SB: -- feeling that way with my -- with my relationship. LS: Yeah. You mean -- you think more for security reasons? SB: Security. LS: Well, see, I wasn’t looking for security. (laughs) I can -LJ: Obviously. (laughter) LS: I just wanted my freedom. I mean, not that I was out doing anything wrong. I’m just a social person. I mean, that’s the type of person I am. I’m just a, you know -SB: Right, it’s just interesting, yeah. 37 �LS: I love people. I love to be out. I mean, [00:52:00] you know... And I don’t think we really... I mean, there -- one -- my -- a mentor, I mean, that I had, a person that was in and out of relationship with me, but I don’t think we knew how to put it. We would -just played sports together. We played softball and basketball and everything. And then she got mad at me, and she went in the convent. (laughter) SB: God! LS: So anyway, then I heard she was out of the convent. So I went and looked -- called her up, (laughter) “Let’s get together.” But, you know, she -- see, she was -- she was mad at me because I had gone to her, and I -- here, I fooled around with this guy and had a child, and she got mad at me, so she went in the convent. But we never thought of putting all of this together, you know what I mean? We just played sports. We went out for piz-- the big thing was pizza and beer in my day. You know, I -- you know, you played sports. You went out to... And we’d -- you know, rather than going out to dinner, but we went out for pizza and beer. And then, I -- you know, come to find out -- and there was -- I mean, she was really [00:53:00] my soulmate. And -SB: She was? LS: She was my soulmate. And I look at her now, and, you know, and now we don’t even talk, which is so sad. LJ: Where is she? LS: In Roslindale. Oh, I know where she is. When... I mean, when my father was ill, and I hate to keep going back to it, but here was another one that was so close to me and never once gave me a call. I had people that were very close to me -- I mean, I had trained 38 �them as officials here. She was my soulmate. Never once gave me a call and asked me how I was. Believe me, I was hurt. LJ: God, yeah. LS: I was hurt. That’s why I wanted a whole complete change in my life. SB: Would you ever call her today? LS: I keep debating. I have the number, and I keep debating, and I keep debating, and I keep debating. She -- and then the sad part was -- now, my father -- she made goo-goo eyes over my father. That was another thing that made me kind of mad, because... Then -and I could see she didn’t want to see him. He was very ill with cancer. He [00:54:00] wouldn’t let go, and I wouldn’t let go. I was the culprit that kept him here. And I feel bad that he suffered like that, okay. But the thing was they -- her and the mother came to the funeral. And sent flowers. Very nice. Sent me money. But money isn’t the issue. It was -- I needed you, you know, at that time. And she said, “Well, of course you know I’d be here.” I’ve never heard from her since. That was the last time. I would have gone to her mother’s funeral, because I knew the family very well, if I had known. But I did not know until years later that the mother had passed. I would have gone. I would have gone. But I really, sincerely didn’t know. And I keep every once in a while thinking, and then I keep thinking. You know, sometimes you have to leave, you know -SB: Leave well enough alone. LJ: Well enough alone. LS: -- things behind. Right, right, you know? SB: Yeah. LJ: Because one can get very hurt. 39 �LS: Right. Right, yeah. SB: Yes. LS: I mean, it’s... You know, things are done, and I -- you know, sometimes you just [00:55:00] have to let go. You, you know, just have to let go, and you’ve got to move on. There’s more to life, and you’ve got to just keep going. LJ: Yeah. SB: That’s right. LS: You know? Yeah. SB: That’s right. LJ: Were there other women that you were particularly interested in? LS: Oh, yeah. I was with one relationship for seven years. But I don’t think she accepted who she was. I don’t think she really ever accepted who she was. But see, again, they were -like, I played ball with them, (laughs) you know, and it just happens, you know. But I don’t think she ever accepted, yeah, who she was. And then she became drinking a little too... I’m not much for people who drink too much. (laughs) LJ: No. LS: I can be crazy enough, but I don’t need anything... (laughter) You know, and to -- you know, and then she -- and then... Oh, she went into the golfing group and then, you know, got into the drinking with the golfing thing, and I was -- that was never my thing. You know, maybe pizza and beer might have been my thing, and, you know -- but that would be about it. But [00:56:00] yeah. And then that was for a while, and then that kind of ended. I got -- I didn’t like the drinking thing. Yeah, that’s not my thing. You 40 �know, I don’t -- I’d have a cocktail, but, you know one might be (laughter) -- be it. But, you know, to really -- when you don’t know what you’re doing... LJ: No, no. LS: That’s... SB: You’re not kidding! LS: There’s a lot of that around, and I’ve seen a lot of it. but that’s not my -- yeah, that isn’t... I couldn’t cope with that. I really couldn’t. SB: Right, right. LJ: Did...? Just another question. It’s not clear to me. When you were young, of course, we all didn’t have a name to put on things. LS: No, no. LJ: But was there a feeling, any feelings from your mother and your father that you were different? Or your mother was disciplining you for other things, saying that she wanted you to do -- get married. She wanted you to have children, etc. Was that what was happening with your mother? LS: [00:57:00] Well, the only -- you know, the only time she sort of was after me was when I wouldn’t marry the guy when I was pregnant. LJ: I see. LS: I mean, that was -- that was bad. But there was the times. And the other thing was -- and I look at it now, and I just took the blame for everything. Okay, I mean, I just took the blame. It was me. I didn’t want to settle down. And that was me. I mean, I’m not lying. But I -- it wouldn’t have been my thing with him, anyway. He would -- he would have been off running around all the time anyway. It was a big mistake. I mean -- okay? I 41 �mean, so I didn’t badmouth him. They thought he was Mr. Wonderful, you know, and I was just a kid that wasn’t going to settle down. And that was the truth. So I just took it. But, you know... I went into -- I was in the bad girls ward. My daughter hates me to say this, (laughs) and show her the tag, that I was in the bad girls ward at the Boston Lying-In Hospital. Not one person ever came to see me. Not one person. I put myself in the [00:58:00] Florence Crittenton Home. LJ: I know Florence Crittenton. LS: Mm-hmm, that’s what I did. Not one person came to visit me. Not one person came. Not my family. They didn’t come to visit me. And I had no place to live, so I had to go back to Florence Crittenton Home. They spent more time trying to get me, because of sports and so forth, and I was just trying to prove I was a woman. That’s why I was having this child. They wanted me to sign the adoption papers. You want me -- how many times I had -- adoption papers were in front of me? And I would not sign them. I told them, mind their own business. I’ll do what I want to do. I had no job at that time. I had a car. That’s the only thing I had. So I did agree to go back to the Florence Crittenton Home until my family finally would let me come in and -- with her and have a room. Then my mother changed things. She got so close to her, and everything changed. In the long run, see, if you stick to your guns, people respect you. They may not agree with what you’re doing at the time, but they -- my aunts all respected me, and I took care of every one of them when they got older. But they did respect [00:59:00] me. They did. After -- I had - I never had a family issue. And sometimes, I’d even talk to some of my cousins, who were younger. And I said, “What did your mother ever tell you?” “Just that you had a baby.” I said, “Well, that was the truth.” They never -- see, the family never talked 42 �about it. They knew I was different. They knew I... And they would just tell the kids that I was different, and I had this child, and nobody asked any questions. Family never, never... SB: You never did that. You never talked about anything. LS: No, I know it. They never talked about it. They never said anything. But in the long run, my relatives all respected me. They all admired me. And I never had an issue with them at all. LJ: There was a lot to be admired. SB: Yeah, I was just going to say... LS: Right, they never -- they never... But see, even though I did it my way, they saw that at least I was doing it. I wasn’t one that was living off of anybody else. SB: That’s right. LS: I wasn’t draining off of anybody. They saw that I was determined. I was going to bring this kid up alone, and I was going to work, and I was going to make it for myself. And I did. And I [01:00:00] never had a family issue. My mother -- my mother was a tough lady. And it may not have been because I was -LJ: Is she Scotch-Irish? LS: No. No, she was Canadian. And I think she had a little -- I don’t want to say mental problems, but I think she had a little depression problems, up and down. Behavior-type thing. You know, I’d come in as a happy kid, you know, and go to tell her something, and she really didn’t give a hoot, you know. I never knew what day it was, and I’d say, “Oh, I don’t know what day it is. I don’t know what...” You know, you, like, walked on eggshells. You didn’t know, you know. I couldn’t come home, so I always went to 43 �somebody else and told them what accomplishment (laughs) I had. Yeah, so that’s sort of like... My father you could -- was wonderful, but, you see, he would... And I used to sit there and wonder why he wouldn’t put her in her place. But, of course, he didn’t dare because then it would -- she would have been worse. You know, you have to... Of course, when you’re a kid, you don’t understand it. I look back at it now, and then I... ’93 is [when] I had to go home and take care of her, and then I took care of her sister with dementia, and, oh, they were tough, let [01:01:00] me tell you. And then after that, I took care of my uncle, their brother, with bladder cancer. Yeah. (laughter) LJ: Oh, boy. LS: But, you know, you do these things. I have -- you know, I don’t know. SB: I know a lot of people don’t do these things. LS: I know it. SB: Hello! That’s why we’re sitting here, admiring you. LJ: That’s right, yeah. LS: You know, I try to explain to people, you have to be happy within. You have to be happy within. If you’re out there taking advantage of people, you’re not going to be happy within. You know, you’re really not. SB: Well, some people will be. (laughs) LJ: I don’t think they are. Some people think they are. LS: I don’t think they are. I think they’re playing -- they’re selfish, and they’ll never be happy. Those are the people that are -- always look at the negative side, the downside of everything. You have to... You know, when the -- when people have discovered you and 44 �the -- and so forth, I keep telling them, you know what? There’s only one way things can go if they’re really that bad. They’ve got to go up. LJ: Yeah, that’s right. SB: That’s right. LS: And that’s the way you’ve got to think. We all have hardships. And [01:02:00] you have to figure out -- I mean, you have -- there’s only one way to look. You know? And I firmly believe -LJ: It’s true. LS: Anybody can do anything if they put their mind to it, you know? Yeah, I mean... You know, but I think it’s your point of view of things. LJ: It’s your point of view. LS: I wake up every day, and I’m thankful I’m here. (laughs) I mean, the -- we have a privilege. LJ: Yeah, that’s right. LS: Not very many people live this long. LS: There are so many people here, and we have three or four women who are passing their hundredth birthdays. LJ: Right, is it... SB: Wow. LJ: Yeah, yeah. LS: And see, that’s exciting. It really is. It’s exciting. Women never lived this long before. And it’s -- and it’s wonderful. I mean -LJ: It is. LS: -- you know, it’s wonderful. 45 �LJ: Yeah. Let me ask you about your daughter. Where is she living now? LS: She lives with me. Not me [01:03:00] living with her. LJ: I see. LS: She’s not very well. If you saw the two of us, you would think she was in her 80s and I was in my 60s. (laughter) LJ: Really? LS: Yes, right. Oh, yeah. She’s got too much weight on her. She’s got umpteen million heart, health problems. Oh, yeah. No, I’d be better off on my own. But she knows -- I’m never there, Lois. I just... (laughs) But I pay the bills. She can live there, but she’s got to make her own life. LJ: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, she does, yeah, right. Was she ever married, or...? LS: Oh, yeah, she was married, and she had two children. The house in Milton was a duplex -well, it still is a duplex. My mother lived in one side, and her and her family lived on the other side, okay? But I couldn’t have the responsibility of my mother with them, okay, because she was divorced with two kids. So that’s why I had to go home to take care of my mother, because it wasn’t fair to leave the burden. And I knew my sister wouldn’t step up to the plate to do anything, okay? So I had to go home and do that. Yeah. So... [01:04:00] So she was divorced. And then I couldn’t keep the house after my mother died, financially. So that’s why I rent the other side, okay? So financially I can stay in Milton. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so now she lives with me. And the granddaughter lives in Oklahoma with three kids. LJ: Really? 46 �LS: Yeah. She married a guy that was in the service when she was at Lasell College. And my grandson had a battle with heroin when he was in junior high school. He ended up with major heart issues. And after that, he died just before his twenty-fifth birthday, with three heart attacks. The valve was abscessed. Whether he took more drugs, we didn’t want to know. Just let it be. Yeah. So we lost him at -- he wasn’t even 25. What a waste. A waste of a life. LJ: What a waste of a wonderful life. LS: So, yeah. LJ: You are a [01:05:00] wonderful, outstanding, amazing woman (laughs) with all the things you’ve done. Let’s see. Is there anything else (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LS: Oh, I have to tell you -- yes, I’ll tell you another funny story. The last school I taught at was Fontbonne Academy, okay? So I had -- you know, I was coaching and teaching the sports. At the time, the schools only had basketball. We were lucky there. They didn’t have, you know, phys. ed. So, of course, I got all these programs going and everything else. So I -- when they had intramurals, I let the kids make signs. The cheerleaders were in charge of the cheerleaders. The basketball people were in charge of the basketball. And we had this big program going. And they had these signs around. And I got called down to the principal’s office. And she wanted to know what G-L-A-D meant. (laughter) SB: Oh! Oh! LS: And I -- and Sister Stella was one of these people that was so stern. And I said to her, you know, “I don’t think you [01:06:00] really want to know.” But I told her. And you know 47 �what it -- what it -- you know what it was for? God love a duck, because that’s what I said. (laughter) LJ: I was wondering where you get that! LS: And the duck was the mascot and then... See, all my life, I didn’t like swearing. So I used to say “God love a duck.” Every time anything would get upset, I’d go, “Oh, God love a duck, I don’t believe it!” (laughter) So here I am, explaining this, that my family just always took it. And of course, the kids did, too. When I was in gym and something was wrong, and I’d say, “Oh, God love a duck, I can’t believe it! If I can do it, you can do it!” You know? So they had these G-L-A-D signs up around the school. And of course, they were interpreted another way. (laughter) And I had to go -LS: Incredible. I had heard the expression “God love a duck,” and I said, “Oh my God, I haven’t heard that for years.” LJ: That’s wonderful. SB: Pam, Pam says it all the time. LJ: Does she? SB: God love a duck. LJ: God love a duck. LS: God love [01:07:00] a duck, yeah, God love a duck. SB: God love a duck. LS: God love a duck, yeah. That’s what I say. LJ: Oh my God. SB: She’s from Oklahoma. LJ: That’s marvelous. 48 �LS: Yeah, so that was a good one, yeah, yeah. LJ: Well, you’ve given us a wonderful -LS: Oh, good. LJ: -- perspective -SB: Yes. LJ: -- a wonderful section of life with your positive attitude, and we really appreciate it. LS: Oh, good. No problem. I told you I’d be willing to. Yeah, no problem at all. LJ: It’s wonderful, wonderful. LS: Yeah. SB: We really appreciate it so much. LJ: Good, yeah. Good. I hope I contribute. LJ: It’s -LS: You know, it’s the same thing, and I was saying this at Mary Pratt’s hundredth birthday. You know, the Boston Board of Officials and everything, a lot of things have gone defunct. Nobody knows the history and the hours of volunteer work we put into this. And I kept saying to a couple of them that were there, we need to do something. We’re honorary life members of an organization that’s just floating in mid-air. But I said, these kids have no idea of what -- how we got there. SB: That’s right, that’s right. LS: You know, I mean, they have heard of Title IX. But beyond that, [01:08:00] they think life and everything began the day they were born, and they have no sense of -SB: That’s right. 49 �LS: -- appreciation to all the work and effort. Because back then, we -- every year, we rated our officials. Women had to. See, that’s why we lost this -- the power, because the men don’t train. And a guy in pants just [uses] a whistle, and they sign them, see? SB: Yeah, right! (laughter) LS: Okay, well, we were training them. And every year, we had to be evaluated. Every year, we had to take a written test. We couldn’t get these people in Washington, with NAGWS, National Girls and Women’s Sports, to come down and make it a little bit easier, you know, because you’re only going to survive with numbers. And that’s why field hockey gave me a hard time in the officiating section, not the playing, because I’m trying to bring these people in. If you can officiate one sport, you can officiate the other. All you have to do is learn the rules. But you’ve got that bizarre, you know, pizazz. And see, they didn’t like it because lacrosse and field hockey were with the certain -- not the elite, but the [01:09:00] private school and some of the elite colleges, okay, you know. Oh, I have to tell you another funny story. You know, some of the girls had nothing years ago, before we fought for Title IX. Years ago, I went out . . .Helen Parker, who was the phys. ed. teacher out at Radcliffe, in Cambridge. Now, you know what the dorms are in that little piece of grass that the kids sit out and so forth? SB: Yeah, yeah. LS: Okay? By the dorms? LJ: Yeah. LS: That was the softball diamond that I had to go do umpire softball games at Radcliffe College. I kid you not. LJ: Oh, God! 50 �LS: You don’t know how many gyms we had. And we came down, and there was a window right there. (laughter) We could have climbed right out, or over the... Yeah, yeah. I mean, you wouldn’t believe some of the -- what we had -- we had nothing. Some of the girls had nothing. That was before Harvard would take them on, and that did more for -but that was title IX that did that. LJ: Do you have some pictures of some of, you know -- some of the work that you did? I mean, like when you were [01:10:00] officiating or when you were coaching, or...? LS: Yeah, I do. Well, see, these two ladies that did Mary’s... Kathy Bertrand and Linda Lundin, that live in Bridgewater now, they have a lot of my stuff now, because they’ve been interviewing me with the movement of girls’ and women’s sports, but not so much the Boston Board, but just girls’ and women’s sports, because something documented someplace so that there would be... So they’ve been doing that. They did it with Mary Pratt’s women’s baseball. I used to go to the baseball reunion for the World War II baseball reunion, and I went to upper-state New York when A League of Their Own was celebrating their tenth year. And I was up there for that, too. Well, they do all of the stuff for the reunions. And they sell stuff, too, you know, but they put that together. So they’ve got a lot of my stuff now, but I could always get it, if -- I mean, if -- you know, if there was anything that you wanted. But they have a lot of that stuff, and a lot of my movie stuff and so forth. Sharon has it up in Maine, you know? See, that’s what [01:11:00] I’ve been doing, like I’m doing now, with them. Because they’re trying to put something together, you know? SB: Well, yeah. I mean, it really belongs to them and everything, but if we could have a few pictures and -- 51 �LJ: Just something to... SB: -- you know, to go with your story. LJ: Your experiences. LS: What would you...? I mean, what...? Think about what you might like, because I’m sure I can dig up stuff, you know. Well, there was a book that Helen (laughs) Mackey –- I could go on forever –- Helen Mackey wrote on officiating, and I’m in it as far as softball umpiring is concerned. My partner -- that was one of my seven-year partners who couldn’t accept who she was -- was the one who was the photographer for the book. Dr. Helen Mackey was from Framingham State College. She wrote the book on women’s officiating. And in there is old pictures of me with my high school when I taught at Cardinal Cushing in South Boston, when we had to wear a skirt -LJ: Oh, yes. SB: Oh, yes. LS: To umpire. We couldn’t wear pants back then. SB: Oh, yes. LS: And I’m out in South Boston Field, in a skirt, mind you -SB: Oh my God. LS: -- umpiring a softball game. (laughter) [01:12:00] And Joan Hamblin took the pictures. I’ve got those. SB: I -LS: I go -SB: David would (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -LJ: That would be interesting to have. 52 �LS: I’ve got a picture of that. And then I’ve got a picture, way back -- I think I even have them on my iPad, because Sharon or somebody sent it just recently, came up with it and sent it, and want to know, “Is this you, and what year was it?” (laughter) And I said, “I’m not going to tell you.” But anyway, then there’s another picture of Mary Pratt, who’s a hundred, and Ginny White, who’s now in a nursing home, and Joan, who was my partner then, and myself. And it was -- be way back in the ’70s. And when we were officiating basketball, the four of us were there with our skirts on. SB: Oh my God. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LS: Because they weren’t allowed -- remember, we weren’t allowed to wear pants. SB: No kidding! LS: Can you imagine -SB: No kidding. LS: -- umpiring a softball game in a skirt? SB: And they were playing softball. Now, did they have to wear skirts? LS: Oh, Mary, when I played for Mary’s Raiderettes... When they played for me, you could wear shorts, okay? When I played for Mary’s [01:13:00] Raiderettes, her mother, Daisy Pratt, she made these little skirt things. And every time you slid, you had raspberries here. (laughter) Can you imagine stealing second base and sliding, and you have raspberries? LJ: But you also had a cap on, didn’t you? LS: No, I hated hats. LJ: No hats, no. 53 �LS: I hated hats. Mary Pratt wore one, but I hated hats. No, I mean, I didn’t like hats. LJ: There’s a picture somewhere of a woman of -- not officiating but playing a game with a short skirt that’s up to here somewhere. (laughter) LS: Yeah, well, you know, those -- in those days, that -- things were different. SB: Yeah, they sure were. LJ: They were different. LS: Yeah, yeah. LJ: Well, we thank you very much -LS: Okay, you’re welcome. SB: Thank you. LS: Yeah, you’re welcome. LJ: -- for doing this. We really appreciate it. LS: Okay. LJ: This is going to be a high point (inaudible). SB: Yes. Yes, [01:14:00] indeed. END OF LORAINE SUMNER FILE 54 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sumner, Loraine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Loraine Sumner, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-22 Description An account of the resource Interview with Loraine Sumner for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Sumner, Loraine; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history