1 50 33 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/fb105823227cc1f74689e2b782d10700.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=pthlnmv33PaXeMtmHu261bp8mtJRC8ctQ%7E%7EMP7eLDzdF%7Eq1gl5DJwBdFCAV3ypr2%7EJ3qJBIbGvbcWu1uwXJyWMBMAV70DF8gjllHT8Y1dFsr3xBPzhZd2ubz94xx7aPve9N%7E99YGrgReL25k2oPwrykwsuWRfl6euKR0JFq6uVjjAf2Suz-MFxbd72%7EOfWCgLuMG-oEG0uaDQyGL5proiH--fYXigVxpSN4egDvDbQH5xiPtbmwXjmpnbL9j7tEuI2WZ-8sCCfsATmNkjwTYNqqXlekSGjMgqCjAwHOhYUVqgfQ1btpeMomf77Q%7E5kGrxnyUGYPY6%7E7Sc2fnMNwxoQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM d154d16216fe2e1d9740c90ac2697273 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/18261b8b8329c49c3531bff568a2d188.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=N7Nxrdxg2pEtCe9W5s6mhBoLypc2xsCCp3VawESsc%7EBGOrec0%7EXFeYYa-PQ6UUxUpy2QDn37RkFuF0CaC91lkOg45FC4jKaV%7EL8k-D6k6ky0sV8e2ed9Ow9NoCeSn5HZsmva7N1WBfi8aAewhTFTnbZicLfFUDDtCRbYezt9HSrZAeoG0WDRBoPCs75vvBNtEzAP3tnnZN3GTCRsagSs%7EaMKRTaJbDe7JtBkNSsbyy0PIsPFEBYtnfixIZsOJPUOEYQFLPqkCSWzib1T8AvW6xRg1ZuCDeyHVE2wQrxOl36M8nMB1-9EBg4sk18NtfCzwKa8wpVtkg%7E-wtrOzgUsYQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1e1f1fe62e9ee36a77b313df901c15d5 PDF Text Text Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Lois Johnson Interviewer: Judith Sullivan Circa 2016 Interview Part 1 of 4 1 �JUDITH SULLIVAN: And we are going to be starting with talking about Lois’ life. I know you’ve had a fascinating life. LOIS JOHNSON: JS: Well, I don’t know how fascinating, but I’ve enjoyed it. (laughs) Yeah. We could probably talk for weeks about it. But we’ll start with the light version today. LJ: Okay. JS: And you can always go back and add anything else that you want -- LJ: All right. JS: -- later. But you want to say something about your growing up years and how you got started? LJ: Sure. Okay, fine. I was born in Stoneham, Massachusetts, August 21, 1931. I was brought up in a family of Christian Scientists, and for that reason, my mother was in a sanatorium in Stoneham, which was -- there was, of course, no Christian Science sanatorium, but it was a -- it was a Seventh Day Adventist [00:01:00] hospital. This is at least one of the things that I was told as a child. And the reason Mother went there was that it was, sort of, close by, and it was not as medical as other places. It was very vegetarian, and Mother remembers -- and I remember hearing this as a child -- (laughs) they only served, for protein, nuts. Nuts. There was no meat. And she was -- by the time she got home, she was just aching for, you know, something to eat. Anyway, I lived in Everett, Massachusetts, which is also in a similar area to Stoneham, but it’s more of a - a small city. It was a -- let’s see. I’d call it more of a working class city. My father worked for Boston Edison. He was a meter tester. My mother was a housew-- JS: He was -- he was a what? 2 �LJ: A meter tester. JS: Oh, meter tester. LJ: Electrical meter tester. JS: [00:02:00] Mm-hmm. LJ: My mother was a stay-at-home mom for most of her life, but when I was 11, she went out to work at the Christian Science Monitor youth -- Christian Science Monitor in Boston. We lived in a two-family house in Everett. My -- it was owned by my uncle and his sisters, and grandmother, at that time. He was a postman. He worked for the Malden postal department. My aunts -- there were three of them, Elna -- these are all Swedish names -- E-L-N-A, Alice, which is not Swedish, [Aunt?] Hilda, and Anna was my mother’s name. My father’s name was Charles Axel, A-X-E-L, Johnson. My mother’s name was Anna Elizabeth Johnson, [00:03:00] and they -- a Johnson married a Johnson. They were from Sweden, both of them, but they were first generation. They were born here. My mother -- I don’t -- there was never much told to me about family history, but as far as I know, my grandfather on my mother’s side came from southern Sweden, and he knew a lot about glass, so when he came here, he got a job at Pittsburgh Plate Glass. They lived in Chelsea at that time, and there was a family of one, two, three, four girls and one boy. My Uncle Tage -- which is a very Swedish name, too, T-A-G-E -- and the aunts. No one ever married upstairs except for my mother, and then my Aunt Hilda, when she was much older, in her fifties. Let’s see. [00:04:00] I don’t want to lose the thread of this, and just get back to where I was. My father also came from a Swedish 3 �family. He nearly was born in Sweden, but his mother emigrated on a boat, and he was born just a few days after she landed, so he was an American citizen, though he was Swedish. JS: Interesting, yeah. LJ: Which is interesting. One of the things that happened in those days was that people did not have proper medical care, so he was born without the silver nitrate drops which they usually had put into children’s eyes at that time when they were born. And he -- all he had -- always had astigmatism. That might have been a blessing, because that and his age kept him out of the Second World War, or the First World War. He had been married before, and he had three sons, none of whom I ever met, because once he [00:05:00] divorced his wife, which was unusual in those days -- that would have been prior to 1920 -- he never wanted to see them again, and he never wanted to see his wife again. JS: Oh. LJ: He lived in Malden. He was brought up as a Methodist, and he became a young mini-Methodist lay minister at a young age. There was a picture of him. I don’t know if I still have it. He was a handsome young man with red hair in a black suit. And he used to go around, he told me, visiting the sick, and reading the Bible, and singing songs, and so forth, singing hymns, et cetera. He also was brought up in a rather unusual way. His mother was widowed, or she was divorced, one or the other. Or her husband didn’t come with her. So she was here alone, and she was running a boardinghouse for Swedish [00:06:00] immigrants in Malden, and that would have been in the late nineteenth century, early twentieth century. And my father was the only child that she had. So he learned a lot of things. He learned how to cook, not extensively, but he used to make 4 �wonderful cornbread, and he knew how to make his coffee. He knew how to do a lot of things. And he would go with her weekly into Boston to the -- well, it was called the food market, I guess, in those days, down at Hanover Street? JS: Mm-hmm. LJ: And he would help her carry things home, and learned how to choose food. And he would help her serve food. And she’d serve big breakfast to the immigrants. They also had rooms in the house, I guess. And he learned how to clean, and he learned how to take care of thing, so he was -- he was well-versed in those things, more like -- he used to say, “I was brought up as a girl.” (laughs) “I learned all the girls’ things in those days.” He was a very good [00:07:00] man, but he was -- well, for some reason, he had some sort of an inferiority complex. He was very, very bright. If he had had the advantages of today, and all -- in those days, children went to school, but they graduated at the eighth grade, and if they had extra money, or their families did, they went to high school, but they didn’t go on a normal basis. So he had to work. So he got a job when he was about 16 in town working for -- as -- a drapery company, I guess. I forget where it was. I think it was down at North Station. And so he got to know Boston very, very well. So as a result, he used to take me around when I was little. As soon as I could toddle and was continent, (laughter) as little children often [are?] -- JS: Yeah. LJ: When I was six or seven, Daddy used to -- he started taking [00:08:00] me into Boston. Mother was always invited to come, but she wanted Daddy and me to bond, I guess. So she said, “Why don’t you go with her?” JS: Are you an only child? 5 �LJ: No. I had a sister. I fo-- I’m not forgetting my sister. JS: Well, you can talk about your -- LJ: Yeah, we’ll talk about the sibling. JS: -- your trips with your father. LJ: Yeah. We went into Boston on the El, the elevated train, which started at Everett -- still does -- and so he would take me to the Custom House Tower, and as I grew older, to Esplanade concerts. He would walk me around Hanover to the food marts. He’d take me up and down looking at all the shops. We went everywhere in Boston, so I grew to love it. I just loved Boston. I have one sister who is 10 years older than I. She was born in 1921. And her name was Ruth Sigred. She was named after my grandmother Sigred. JS: [00:09:00] How do you spell that? LJ: Sigred, S-I-G-R-E-D. Sigred is a very, you know, Scandinavian name. JS: Yeah. LJ: And Ruth was a wonderful woman. When my mother died -- because she died early, at 54, of liver cancer -- my sister had always loved me and taken care of me, but she served as my mother at that time. I was 17, and I still needed a lot of direction and someone to lean on. My father helped me, but my sister did a lot. Ruth was wonderful. She and I were good friends, even though I was 10 years younger. She took me to museums. She took me to the Agassiz. She took me to the MFA. She took me to Harvard Square. She took me everywhere and anywhere that she was going, you know, that -- you know, on the weekends. And we’d have long conversations. We’d share poetry together. She [00:10:00] worked with me, so I learned to read at an early age. You know, beginning preschool a little bit, and into the first grade. 6 �JS: Oh, that’s wonderful. LJ: So she was indeed a loving and kind sister. And she was a teacher. She went to Boston University, which I followed her in. I went to BU. And she graduated in 19-- when did she graduate? Nineteen forty-three, I think it was. She taught in Canton, Massachusetts, for quite a long time as a high school teacher, teaching English. And then she married in 1952, I think it was, and she and her husband had two children, one boy and one girl. She then took care of the kids for quite awhile, and then after that, she became [00:11:00] a school librarian for many years in the city of Lexington -- the town of Lexington. But anyway, to go back to her. Let me see, now. Where was I with my father and my mother? Upstairs we had Uncle Tage, who was indeed a very -- my aunts -- I was brought up -- you know, I was saying this to somebody last night. I’m one of those lucky people in life. People adored me as (laughs) a child, because my sister was older, and she’d been a very cherished child, too, but because I came along, I was often said -- once in awhile, I heard this from my father. It wasn’t meant to be derogatory, but I was an accident. Nobody planned it. Nobody was using birth control. It was 1931, the very depths of the Depression. And my father did not lose his job, by the grace of God. (laughs) He continued to have a good job. [00:12:00] And my uncle had a job in the postal service all during the Depression. The aunts had jobs. So everybody -no one was rich, but we never wanted for anything. 7 �The aunts upstairs were so kind and good to me, and Uncle also. Uncle -- I always just called him Uncle. Uncle Tage -- Uncle Tage had -- what shall we say? He and Elna both shared, maybe, my grandmother’s side of the family, because they had short tempers -which was never turned on me, but -- and they were also difficult people in some ways, but they were so generous. They were kind and generous people. And with me, my uncle would always say, “Come on, [Loie?], we’re going to go and get you a pair of shoes.” So that’s -- it really helped my family downstairs. Daddy didn’t have to do that. Or aunts would take me in [00:13:00] town and say, “Lois, we’re going to buy you some dresses, you know, so you’ll have them for your school [back?].” And so I was well taken care of. My mother was one of those angelic people who was just wonderful. She loved her children dearly. She took good care of them, and she was kind. And she was a very Christian woman. She’d been brought up, I guess, as a Congregationalist, but she and my father met in the Christian Science church in Chelsea. When they met, I guess it was love at first sight, and it continued to be a love affair for their whole life. They really loved one another. She died, as I said, in ’54. But before that, she went to work at the Christian Science Publishing Society, and she was -- I don’t know. I think she was doing addressograph, if you know what that means. JS: Yeah. LJ: That’s an old-fashioned term. [00:14:00] Because the family needed some extra money at that point. But she was very social. She was outgoing. She belonged to the Rebekah Lodge in Everett. She became a Noble Grand. One of my fondest little memories as a 8 �little child -- I must have been five, six. Mother was being installed, as they said, as a Noble Grand. And I, as a little child, was asked to come. And I was given the roses to bring to Mother. Walked across the floor, you know. And I’ll always remember that. That was -- that was wonderful. JS: Very special. LJ: Yeah, very special. Mother and I were very close. We went to a lot of places together. I remember -- she went to church with me. We went to the Malden Christian Science church. Not every Sunday, but I went to Sunday school from age three. I was brought into Sunday school into the nursery, and I remember the one thing [00:15:00] from that childhood day that I’ll always remember. Up on the wall was one of those sepia prints. Do you know what sepia means? Because they didn’t have color in those days. And it was Daniel in the lion’s den. And I was just -- I’d always look at it as a little child, trying to figure out what it was. So anyway, I stayed in Sunday school, as you do in the Christian Science Church, till you’re 21. And I normally went to Sunday school, (laughs) but I went not -- not when I was little, but when I grew up, in later -- in later years, you’d go to Sunday school, you’d go to Wednesday service, and you’d go to Sunday (laughs) service. So that was a busy time for me. I had all the basics of Christian Science deeply instilled in me. And so -- and I became a Sunday school teacher. When I went to Boston University, I was -- belonged to the Christian Science college organization. I would often volunteer [00:16:00] to be the person leading the service. And so I was well on my way, I think, to becoming (laughs) a Christian Science practitioner at that time. And I worked for the 9 �Christian Science Monitor, and I also worked for the Christian Science Monitor Youth Forum, and I belonged to the Youth Forum, which began in, oh, I guess, the late ’40s. So let me see. What else about my family? Anyway, again, another fond memory -- two fond memories of the aunts. And this was the way it was. My sister and I shared a bedroom. We had twin beds. And there were two windows. It was on the first floor, and the aunts lived upstairs. They would go to work early in the morning, say, seven o’clock in the morning to go catch the bus and get into Boston, and they would always knock on the window or whatever, even though it was up here, and they’d hand me a dime or a nickel, (F1 laughs) you know, or something for the day, which was really sweet. On Valentine’s Day, they had a tradition whereby they [00:17:00] were upstairs, and their doors -- you know, a two-family house, were [side by side?]. And so the aunts would come down the stairs. They would buy quite a few Valentine’s Day gifts. I was inside. They would ring the bell. Then they’d disappear. And they’d leave a book, like The Bobbsey Twins, or they’d leave some candy, or whatever. And they had about -- I think they must have enjoyed it, because they did it every year when I was a little kid. (laughter) So, let me see. What else? I’m losing the thread here. Pick me up (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -JS: Did you have any chores to do at your home? LJ: Oh, yes, yeah. I -- I polished the pipes in the kitchen. People will probably not know this unless they come from our generation, or my generation. The house was two family. It was probably built in 1915, something like that. And in the kitchen, you had a slate sink. 10 �You didn’t have an enameled sink. And it was a dark [00:18:00] colored slate, and it had a place for washing dishes, and two tubs for washing clothes, and up above them was a long piping, which was made of copper or brass, and that had to be polished every week, because copper turns green. And being a Swedish family, everything had to be very clean. (laughs) JS: Oh, yeah, it would be wonderfully -- yeah. LJ: So I -- you know, I w-- I always -- I remember cleaning those pipes a lot. (laughter) I also set the table, and I helped my mother. I washed dishes. I wiped dishes. My sister and I -- another fond memory. We loved to sing together. She played the piano, and I took piano lessons, too, and played the piano. And she had a very nice mezzo voice. So Ruth would wash the dishes, I would wipe them, and we would sing together at supper. So I always enjoyed that, [00:19:00] you know. JS: You know, my sister and I did that, too. LJ: Did you do that, too? JS: Yeah. Yeah. LJ: Yeah. It made it less -- JS: It’s a wonderful memory. LJ: -- it’s a wonderful memory -- less of a chore. In fact, one of the things -- because I was a very serious child, I read all the Christian Science literature as soon as I was able to. I read the Bible. I memorized a lot. And I remember [books?] -- excuse me. (begins to cry) I remember being in the pantry and saying, “I will always help my mother. I love my mother so much.” Excuse me. I’ve been through a lot of therapy [00:20:00] to get 11 �through this, but just thinking about her, I loved her so much. And I lost her so early. I’m sorry. JS: It’s okay. Take your time. LJ: Yeah, yeah. But anyway, I always said I would do anything for her. (laughs) But I didn’t have a chance to help her in her old age, because she had no old age. And -- but -- but anyway. JS: That’s very hard, coming from such a family as yours -- LJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JS: -- to lose a per-- the key person, really. LJ: Oh, the key person, yeah. And my father was very caring, but of course, he was a man, (laughs) and there’s a great difference. And my sister was there, but she was in Canton by that time, teaching. But it was fine, you know? I got over it, because the aunts, of course, came to my rescue, and they [00:21:00] helped me as much as possible. And I -you know, I slowly got over it. JS: You stayed in -- though, in the same home -- LJ: Oh, yes. JS: -- with your father. LJ: We stayed in the same home, yes. JS: Did anyone move in with you? LJ: Pardon, please? JS: Were they -- did they all still live upstairs, or did anybody -- LJ: Oh, they all lived upstairs, yeah. And my father and I lived downstairs. Essentially, it was the two of us, and my sister was commuting at one point, but then at another point -- 12 �I guess she had taught on the Cape, and she lived down there, but in Canton, she commuted every day. So she was essentially there, too. So she was there with all of us. In those days, one of the strangest things -- of course, it was -- it was burial from the house, not from the -- the funeral home, so one of the strangest memories that I have, (laughs) which doesn’t make me cry but just seems so strange to me, but in those days -you know what a -- sort of, a -- a lamp with the top on it, and it -- it doesn’t have a [00:22:00] shade, but whatever -- it’s on, sort of, a -- I forget what it’s called. But anyway, my mother was laid out in our living room (laughs) with a light at either end. And maybe that’s why I was so affected, too, because I -- I wasn’t afraid, because I, you know, I had my Christian teachings, and I believed in the resurrection, and I -- but it was very strange. I remember that was for two nights, two or three nights, and then there was a service, and Mother was -- was buried up at the cemetery in [Everett?]. But I guess in those days, you know, you just -- that was 19-- it wasn’t that, you know, old days, but it was 1948. And maybe they couldn’t afford the -- taking them to the -- of course, there was some connection with a -- [00:23:00] a funeral home, but that was very peculiar. But it’s a strange memory. But, you know, that imprints on a young person’s mind, you know. JS: What was the strange part, being laid out at home, or -- LJ: Well, just having -- having the body of someone in the same house where you’re sleeping -- JS: Yeah. 13 �LJ: -- yeah -- is -- and the body is not alive, (laughs) you know? It was very strange. It was very strange, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, let’s see, now. Let me see. What else can I tell you about? JS: Well, I’m thinking, if you want to move into anything that had to do, as you grew up, noticing that you were -- you couldn’t do things the boys did -- LJ: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well -- JS: -- or that, you know, you wanted to, or -- LJ: Well, basically, my father, I think, thought of me, you know, sort of, as the boy. He -[00:24:00] because he -- we used to take long walks. We’d go from Everett to Malden, say, on a Sunday afternoon, after dinner, because he was going to take me to the movies. And so we’d walk down into Malden, and there was an old cemetery there, a very old cemetery, seventeenth century, sixteenth century. And so we’d walk along the railroad tracks, which ran along it, and there were no trains at that time. And Daddy would -- he had a jackknife, and we’d -- we’d play games. Like we’d play stick knife on the railroad ties. And we walked all the way through Malden by all the old factories. They had light industry. And go to the movies, and then come home by bus. So that was -- you know, it was, sort of, like a boy. And then at Christmastime, we had a Christmas tree, and Daddy knew how to solder. And, of course, you didn’t spend a lot of money on anything in [00:25:00] those days, so if the Christmas lights went out, you soldered them back together again. So Daddy taught me how to solder. And I spent a lot of time in the basement with him, you know, watching the coal, and watching him shake the furnace down. And he built me a 14 �dollhouse out of orange crates, if you believe it, and aunties helped me furnish it. And then they had an old Victrola, and I used to spend the very, very long summer days with Mother downstairs. She’d bring the -- he’d bring the ironing board downstairs for her, she and I, and I’d play with my dollhouse, or else I’d march around like a little martinet, you know, around seven or eight, to the Victrola music. So I had one of those -- you know, nothing is idyllic, because there were -- there was conflict between upstairs and downstairs. My -- my grandmother, most of all, who had probably gone on by then, did not like my father at all, because he was a divorced [00:26:00] man. That was a no-no in those days. And it was a real prejudice. And my uncle and he never got along, so they, sort of, ignored one another. They’d be shaking the furnace down. He’s over here, he’s over here. They didn’t even talk. That created angst for me, because I wanted everybody to love one another, you know? But -- and so I learned to be a diplomat in those days, because I loved them upstairs, and I loved them -my mother and father downstairs, and you had to make sure -- I didn’t want anybody yelling at one another or any of those things. So I learned how to be the sweet-tongued interrupter to -- to take care of things. And it served me well. Sometimes it hasn’t served me well, but most of the time, [it’s quite?] served me well. Now -JS: That’s interesting. LJ: Yeah. JS: So you want to talk about how you -- LJ: Came out? JS: -- came out, or [00:27:00] discovered -- 15 �LJ: Sure. JS: I mean, did that happen at that point, or much later? LJ: Oh, it happened much later, because -- JS: Well, then, there must be something in between. LJ: Oh, there is something in between. JS: Your schooling, probably. LJ: Oh, yes, the schooling. JS: College. LJ: Yeah. JS: BU. LJ: I went to -- JS: First jobs. LJ: Yeah, I will. I went to public school, of course, and all through public school. And in those days -- that was in the ’40s -- there were still a lot of excellent teachers that had a very fine educational system. I had very good instruction in everything. In high school, particularly, I had two years of Latin, one year of German, a couple years of French, and a lot of things that they don’t teach nowadays in the schools. And the teachers were people who had come from the early twentieth century. A lot of them were women. Some were men. And they were very well versed in their subjects. So I felt very blessed to have the education that I did have [00:28:00] there. And I graduated with high honors from high school. I had always been a good student. I loved -- I loved to study, and so I always got A’s. I’m not bragging, but that’s (laughs) the way it was. And I went on -- JS: I’m not surprised. 16 �LJ: Yeah. (laughs) I went on to Boston University, and I decided to be a teacher, because my sister had been a teacher. I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do. But in those days, I do remember now, as you look back, I had -- I was shy. I was, sort of, a nerd. You know, I liked to study a lot. But I had a lot of friends, mainly girl friends. I have one -- one fellow whom I really -- I never dated in high school. Never ever. I had one friend, Donald, Donald [Jesse?]. Donald was a great guy. He and I, we’d sit [00:29:00] around. We were the same age. We’d sit around after Latin school, or, I mean, after we’d had -when recess was happening in high school. We’d sit on the desks in the room instead of going down to the lunchroom, and eat our lunch upstairs, and decline verbs, Latin verbs, and conjugate verbs. What a couple of nerds. (F1 laughs) But we had good times together. (laughter) And he -- one of the things that I really wanted to do, I wanted a part-time job so bad. I loved to work. And he got a job when he was 16 in a drugstore in his neighborhood, which was a little different neighborhood than ours. And he had a hat, and he could serve ice cream, and all that stuff, and I wanted so badly to do that. And by the time I was 16, also, I guess, I managed to get a job doing that on Saturdays over in Malden, and I was delighted. (laughter) So [00:30:00] let me see now. Donald was really the only guy I was really friendly with, and I had several girl friends. And I remember one of them particularly, because those were the days when there was a lot of guitar playing and the beginnings of the movement of preserving folk songs, et cetera. And so I really wanted to play guitar, but I never did 17 �get to. But Florence -- I remember Florence coming down, and we’d, sort of -- she’d play the guitar, because she played it fairly well, and I played the piano quite well, and so we -- we wouldn’t play together, but we would just -- she’d come and visit. And I remember just having -- I suppose it’s what you would call a crush on her. I really liked her. I thought she was great. (laughs) JS: And you were how old at that point? LJ: I was 15, I’d say, 15. And also, [00:31:00] we went horseback riding together, which was great. Her father was very nice, and he took us out to Saugus, where there were horses. I’d never been on a horse in my life. She had been. And I remember, you know, I didn’t -- I’d do anything. I thought I could do anything (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). So I just climb up on the horse, and I wasn’t afraid or anything. And we’d ride through the brambles and through the bushes, et cetera. I remember one horse I got on, he wanted to back up and get rid of me, and I was a little afraid, but -- and then he started to run, and then I had to haul him in, and it was really something. But she and I had wonderful times together. And I had another girlfriend, [Barbara Healey?], who was a wonderful person. I didn’t have any crushes on her. She was just a good girl friend. But Florence, I remember saying, “Hmm, she’s very nice.” And, okay. We went from there -- oh, one thing I hadn’t mentioned was, music was a big part of our lives [00:32:00] at home. I took music lessons from the time I was six until the time I was about 17, 16 or 17. JS: Piano. 18 �LJ: My sister played quite well. I played quite well. It’s served me well in my future life, because both my relationships, gay relationships, came through music. And so I am ever so glad. And Sheri and I just share music so -- so much. It was a very, very import-- it is an important thing to us. My father was not a trained musician, but he had a good ear, so he could play certain things. We had a player piano, which he bought, very expensive in those days, but he bought it. JS: That’s impressive. LJ: And my mother was a trained musician. She was a violinist. He liked the violin. He could play it by ear, some Swedish songs. And Mother belonged to a women’s orchestra, women’s -- all-women’s orchestra, in those days. [00:33:00] Let’s see. As far as crushes and feelings, I -- as I said, I always felt I could do anything. I’d go out in the garden. I’d rake. I’d shovel. I’d do anything. And in our house, the men both had had hernias, so they -- (laughs) they didn’t really get out there and shovel snow or whatever. They couldn’t. But my mother was always out there with her long coat or sweater on, shoveling off the walks. She didn’t mind. She liked to do it. And my aunts did the same. So I said, “Oh, this is what you’re supposed to do.” So I -(laughter) We played cowboys and Indians. Oh, I had another -- as a young kid, I had a wonderful friend, a boy. His name was [Andersen?]. There were a few Swedes in the city, and [Carl?] and I would play together a lot. We performed some Swedish dances [00:34:00] 19 �when we were about -- I guess we were 10 or so -- together. He was the svensk pojke. I was the svensk flicka. And we had -JS: That’s really cute. LJ: Yeah. (laughs) Cute kids. And his family owned a -- a house, oh, only may-- five minutes away, up a hill. And they had a wonderful backyard with apple trees and crabapple trees. We’d run through the yard and have a great time, play cowboys and Indians, and -- I had more guns than God, and I -- (F1 laughs) for a kid who went to Christian Science Sunday school. I had, you know, one of those -- they weren’t real, of course. They were -- it was a clay shotgun. You know, it wasn’t a pop gun. You’d put it together like this, put it over your shoulder, and (F1 laughs) (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I had holsters with the Lone Ranger, you know, with the belt. And I had the [side?] with two guns -- and I’m saying, guns. I would never give my child a gun in these days. (laughter) [00:35:00] But in those days, it -- it didn’t matter. I mean, I used to -- one of my favorite games was -- just at the beginning of the Second World War, there was a board game, which had darts. And it was made so that there was a board that you could put down on the floor, and then you had a little machine on top, into which you could put a pricked dart. And you stand looking through a periscope, and you were looking at Germany or some country overseas, and you were bombing. (laughs) JS: Oh, really? Oh, my gosh. 20 �LJ: It was -- it was terrible. But I loved it. I’d put the thing in, and it would go, boing, boing, and I’d see if I could hit, you know, whatever I wanted to hit in Germany. That’s another funny memory. JS: That is. LJ: And Daddy used to bring me every Fourth of July down to the fireworks store, and we’d get plenty of fireworks, and he’d fire them all off. And I’d play with them. I mean, [00:36:00] it’s a wonder I have any fingers left. (F1 laughs) I’d have lady fingers, and I’d just light them in the backyard. Nobody was worried, you know, in those days. Here, here are fireworks, child. JS: Right. Go play -- LJ: You’re six years old, or you’re seven years old. JS: -- in the yard with your fireworks. LJ: Here’s a -- here’s a piece of punk. (laughter) [And we’ll fix it?]. But anyway, so on to ladies. I -- I don’t know how I thought of myself in those days. I was brought up to be a little lady. But I -- you know, I -- I wasn’t that interested in guys, ever. Only as friends. I never really thought that much about dating in high school. I was too busy studying and too busy at home. I was kept busy all the time. And too busy with the family and my sister to worry about guys. So I went on to Boston University. And I remember [00:37:00] having two huge crushes at Boston University on -- in my freshman year and my sophomore year. One was a girl in my gym class, and I just thought she was the cat’s meow. And -- and there was another girl that I, sort of, kept in touch with. In fact, she -- I looked her up. I still 21 �thought of her, you know, wondering what she had done in life. And she was in a book, or rather, a list of people who -- from Boston University. And I just remember her. I’ll always remember her. And she -- (laughs) because I worked with her, too, when I got out of school. Anyway, let me see. At school, I studied English. I was an English major and a -- an [00:38:00] elementary education major. And I -- I had student teaching. And when I finished school, I -- I went and taught for a year, but I -- I wasn’t happy teaching elementary school. I taught sixth grade in Quincy. And they tried their hardest to keep me, because I was a Phi Beta Kappa, and I probably would have made a brilliant teacher, but I didn’t want to do it. And I had nearly a nervous breakdown over it. That was really a very hard time of my life. I just was very unhappy. I’d get up in the morning. I was being driven down by another guy I’d graduated with, because there was no easy way to get down there, and you had to be there at 7:30 in the morning. JS: Were you still living at home? LJ: I was still living at home, yeah. (cell phone rings) Oh, I’m sorry. I’ve got to put that away. JS: That’s your phone. LJ: I’m sorry. I should have taken it off. JS: Ready to go? LJ: Ready to [00:39:00] go. Ready to go. Okay. So at school, there were those intimations that I had of -- I think -- was it at that time? I’m trying to think of it. I was aware of the fact that there was something else out there, but, you know, it never really crossed my 22 �mind very much. I went to the Youth Forum, and the Youth Forum was very -- it was -- I think I went there first when I was 16, and then I went there all the time I was going to college, too. Because -- I should explain what the Christian Science Monitor Youth Forum was. JS: Yeah, I was wondering. LJ: Yeah. This started in the late ’40s, and the Christian Science church, I guess, realized -you see, the Christian Science church is not set up the way other Protestant churches are. If you go, say, to a Congo church or to a [00:40:00] Methodist church, they might have Methodist youth fellowship, or they might have -- Congregationalists have -- there was none of that social activity in my church whatsoever. It was all devoted, mainly, to studying and living the life of a Christian Scientist, and healing, and, you know, learning, and spiritual understanding, and so forth, and so forth. You’d go, and they had lecturers, and they had other things, but people -- if there was going to be social activity, it wasn’t going to be in the church at all. But the -- so, let me see now. I lost -- JS: The Youth Forum. LJ: So the BU Forum -- the Christian Science Monitor Youth Forum was something that was started, I -- maybe because they felt they needed to bring along the young people or whatever. And it was outside of the church, but it was open mainly [00:41:00] to Christian Science people. And so the Monitor Youth Forum is -- they used to have all kinds of things. They’d have activities. They’d have trips. They’d have, you know, skits. They’d have programs of all kinds. And it was -- it was, sort of, a worldwide movement. There was a junior forum and the senior forum. It was the senior forum I belonged to. And there was one in Boston and one in most of the major cities in the 23 �United States at that time, and overseas, also. And they had people who came on scholarships from one country to the other, and I aspired to that, but I never got there. (laughs) So it was very interesting, and I had a good time. And that’s where I really -- I met the first person that I was with for five years, [Diane?], who changed her name to -- after we had been together, changed her name so that her name was -- [00:42:00] how did she [change?] -- Elizabeth. She took Elizabeth for her first name instead of Diane. She didn’t like her name, Diane, so (laughs) it was hard to find her, too. Anyway, I graduated from college, and -JS: And you met Diane where? At the Youth Forum? LJ: And I met Diane in the Christian Science Monitor Youth Forum. JS: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. And that was -- I can’t remember the exact year that was. I think it was -- (break in audio) END OF AUDIO FILE 24 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/f49f0f94e6ab8d43ceb256b14f6646c7.MP3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=nQxhjHDWTu2AMv1qJDfhzNfeqaRIB11H1XmieSp4cbQWjeGcKcNlZdclLw0BvsdnPCwQ3mTCC1Hk7NKrhxRF%7EVnGfHXgXErUQknicVVz6FpV%7EzoXP%7EP4wS9W0XIco4cnf9zMAoOr4RAei4yW%7EfX-eLKZxx5eWOWoO0jq93wUqEmWtTaAfmKmAsVUzxnMPqMvVpZm0iR6kc0SNeQdCXzHC1wGe3uhii-uNwyFnWSqFyIvfnzZP977rvYx-KjfTIKGD%7EXaABcDuDc1niZEnuSDRaf45DGlfKmCYUMlKsmgUihB0wEKTqpSq40i%7EB-4wsofKGf1QooUrUyamiM0Xr0kuQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM aab623d216398c32873a2082fcb58cc1 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/d513b64484d38dfced8fba99a211b42b.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=A1cWkjGB%7ElpNBc5tCzL5TNIXB2-5uTeKJ1Gl8Dcj14AT02kIopGHrKOAMpIB%7EmNaGMTkCNUicCd5eI0%7ExbECiiqEhcPANalQLdDydj9Y1nJClnmmPu4C3HfNS1yj8FcLoZSVAMi3ru31rl8p3r%7EPQ1HwPEj6t%7EX-ztV-BhdfEMg7SoX032kfCpBJkGO2Ewrj%7Eo2rzazBwBCAiPoFksqclcvTBMw0wFdBBSlOOZH3PN5gSqhjZGarcfoOj9i-vy54ob%7E%7Ev%7EVr6Rq5fMUEiNQI9ORoj-gx8friEyys70cq-w9tdDbujEe6t158lJ2MRUhj9x9Zefl3jGi39Xol3LJ4hQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM bd4a7e8919acd7cee4c774fa436437be PDF Text Text Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Lois Johnson Interviewers: Sarah Boyer, Judith Sullivan January 22, 2016 Interview Part 2 of 4 1 �SARAH BOYER: Okay, we’re on. JUDITH SULLIVAN: Okay. I’m Judith Sullivan, and I’m interviewing Lois Johnson today. It’s January 22, 2016, and we’re at her condo in Roslindale at 44 -LOIS JOHNSON: Jamaica Plain. SB: Jamaica Plain. JS: Oh, is this Jamaica Plain? LJ: This is Jamaica Plain. JS: (laughs) We’re in Jamaica Plain. Okay. At 44 Allandale Street. And we’re about to start the second of an interview that we’ve already done, that really pretty much covered the early part of your life. And so we’re going to pick up now on what happened after you graduated from Boston University. You’ve had a long and very special life, and I think we have more to cover than what we did before. LJ: Okay. JS: But, you know, we can go a little bit freewheeling on that. LJ: Sure, sure. Okay. Well, after I graduated from [00:01:00] Boston University -- am I speaking loud enough? SB: Yes. LJ: I know I have a very low voice. I can’t change it, or I’ll cough. (laughs) SB: No, you go right ahead. LJ: Okay. After I graduated from BU, I was qualified in teaching, in elementary school teaching, so I taught. And I taught in the city of Quincy. I didn’t particularly care for it. I’m not sure why. It was -- they wanted very much to have me there, but I found the children, even though I’d had experience with them, rather difficult to control, even 2 �though the children of those days -- that was 1954 -- were much more obedient. I had (laughs) children in my class, little kids, who later became nuns and priests, and I had a couple of reprobates who were very difficult to control. But I think I almost had a nervous breakdown over the fact that (laughs) it was just not going to work. And my sister had been a teacher, and -- but I used to agonize [00:02:00] about going there. But anyway, as a long story short, they gave me a -- they wanted me so much in the system, because they needed teachers at that time, they gave me a master teacher, and I worked under her for awhile. And then after that one first year, I said, “You know, this is too much on my psyche. I don’t want to do it, even though I’m prepared for it.” And that was very difficult. So I took an interim job at the New England Mutual Life Insurance Company, just a clerical job, and I spent a lot of time in the city of Boston looking at art on Newbury Street, doing all kinds of things. And I commuted back and forth from Everett to Boston. Then, finally, I decided that what I wanted to do was to take a degree in journalism, because I had been an English major, basically. So I went back to Boston University, went to what was then called SPRC, School of Public Relations and Communications, and I got my master’s degree in -- it was about a year, or a little bit [longer?]. [00:03:00] And, again, [I went?] in my beloved city of Boston, in Copley Square most of the time, which I loved. Following that, I looked for jobs. I worked a little bit at some interim jobs in Boston, 3 �which were, you know, writing for small newspapers and stuff like that, writing feature stories. And then I decided, because I was still very active in Christian Science, and I knew somebody on the West Coast, they had an advertising agency. And they said that they would give me a job as a copywriter. So I said, “Well, I think I’ll go.” My mother had died by that time. My father was still alive. And my father was very much by himself, because my sister had gotten married, and I felt bad leaving him. And my aunts lived upstairs in the two-family house, and they were beside themselves with grief that I was going to leave. (laughs) But they said -- [00:04:00] they let me go. It’s the best thing I ever did. They were all loving, kind, good people, with their own quirks, everybody, including my father, but it was time for me to flaunt my wings. I was about -how old was I? Twenty-three, 24, something like that. A little bit younger. So I had a very best friend who had gone to high school with me, and he went to Boston University with me, Donald. And Donald and I were -- you know, it wasn’t a boyfriend, girlfriend, thing. We were best friends. We were such geeks that we would sit in our Latin class at lunchtime, eating our sandwiches and declining nouns in Latin, (laughter) and conjugating verbs, and having long stories about English grammar. Both of us were real, sure geeks. (laughter) We loved English, both of us. So Donald and I got in the car. He had a Volkswagen. I packed myself up, and off we [00:05:00] went. And we drove across the United States, which was the iconic ’50s trip. It was just so much fun. We went the northern route at first, and it was -- I think -- I guess it was spring when we went, because -- or summer, because there were apples 4 �growing in the orchards, which, you know, we had about -- very little money between us, but we had enough, so we’d buy apples. We’d buy grapes. We’d buy all kinds of fruit. And then we’d travel from one place and find the cheapest motel we could possibly find. And we always took two rooms. Remember, it was 1950. JS: Oh, my gosh. LJ: And my father had said, “(clears throat) Well, you’re going with a man?” And I said, “Yes.” And Daddy said, “Well, take care of yourself.” SB: (laughter) He must have trusted you. LJ: (laughter) Exactly. SB: Or else he knew you were a lesbian before you did. LJ: (laughter) Maybe he did. [00:06:00] Maybe he did. SB: Sorry. JS: He could have said -- when he said a man, he could have said a boy. LJ: That’s right, yeah. (laughs) So anyway. So Donald and I took mostly the northern route across all the states. We went to the Midwest, and then we went to Colorado. We took a trip down to Leadville. The little -- thank God for the little Volkswagens. They’re tough as nails. I could drive in those days, but Donald did most of the driving, because it was his car. So we traveled there. Then we came up through -- I think we went through Arizona, and up and around, and in and out, and up (laughs) to as many places as we could go to on very little money, probably a dollar a day. I don’t know what we ate, but it was mainly sandwiches and stuff like that. But we had a fabulous time. And then we came into California, because he had relatives in southern California. We 5 �came in through Yosemite Park, and we stayed at Yosemite, [00:07:00] in those early days, and went -- visited his friends or family. Stayed with them for awhile. Then we went north to San Francisco. And he was a teacher. He had decided he wanted to stay in teaching, so he went south onto the peninsula and got a job, and I had a job right in the city of San Francisco, which suited me just fine. JS: Great. LJ: And being very prim and proper, I said to myself, “Where can I go that’s, number one, cheap, and number two, safe, and number three, I’m not going to be molested by men?” And I had that in my mind, because -- JS: You knew that. LJ: -- I didn’t want to be bothered. So I went to the YWCA, which was right up on Nob Hill in the best of locations, right near the Episcopal cathedral. And it was -- it was a great place to stay. I think it was $20 a week in those days, something like that. When I arrived in California, I had 40 bucks in my pocket, [00:08:00] but in those days -that was 1958? Fifty-seven, ’56, something like that -- that was worth more like 10 times as much, so I had enough. And that was fine. And the meals were included. At least one meal a day was included there, and you had your room. And then you had all of the large areas. So it was fun. JS: And you could walk to where you wanted to go, so -- LJ: Yeah. And I remember, I made friends with a couple of the young ladies who were there, and I -- I still played the piano very well, so I accompanied someone for singing, and then there was another woman who, sort of, hung on me. One of my funny experiences, 6 �which wasn’t so funny for other people, that happened. I was so prim and proper, and so full of my religion, I -- not that I was out there trying to convert, but I had a very, very firm sense of what I accepted and what I did not accept. JS: I see. LJ: So the one thing that -- JS: [00:09:00] Can you think of an example? LJ: Well, the example was that you didn’t drink. JS: Okay. LJ: And I didn’t drink, either, but we went to some bars, which -- because in those days, there were -- you know, as they have today, karaoke. It wasn’t called that, but -- and I liked to sing. So we would go, and we would sing at the piano bars. And I didn’t play, but I sang sometimes at the piano bars. And this one woman -- I even remember her first name, Dawn -- came with us, and a couple of other people from different parts of California. Well, at that time, there was a guy there who was -- oh, he was very handsome. He was a handsome black guy. And he -- he was playing the piano or whatever. Anyway, he invited everybody back to his apartment. My alarm bells went off immediately, saying, “Oh, yes, it is now one o’clock in the morning. He’s inviting all six of us back? Hmm.” But I went, because I felt as though I had to go, because these were my friends. I went. He was [00:10:00] serving orange juice, and I looked at it, and I said, “No, thank you.” (laughter) I had a feeling that it was -- it was mixed with something. And it was. And it could have been -- you know, in those days, you didn’t have a date rape thing, but 7 �it was -- something was in there, vodka or whatever. Well, one of the girls got absolutely plastered, and I’m looking at her, and looking at him, and he was so handsome, and I said to myself, “There is danger here, Lois. Get these girls out of here. You’re not in charge, but you better get them out of here, because you’re the only one who’s not drinking.” JS: Uh-huh. LJ: So it got to be around two o’clock, and he’s saying, “Oh, stay, stay.” And I’m saying, “Well, no.” And I said to my friends, “(laughter) It is time to go home.” And they said, “No, no.” And I said, “Oh, yes, it is. (JS laughs) Down the stairs.” And I got them all out of there, so nobody got raped. JS: You were the designated walker. LJ: Oh, yeah, yeah. (laughter) (applause) That’s right. And I [was saying?] to him, and he said, “Gee, thanks so much. Goodbye.” You know? (laughter) And we got out of there. And of course, [00:11:00] we lived on the top of Nob Hill, so you had to get these drunk, partially drunk and one very drunk young lady, up the hill. Fortunately, I think the trolleys were still running, you know, at that time of night -- JS: Okay, mm-hmm. LJ: -- or in the morning, and so we got on the little trolley and hauled us -- ourselves up, and sent them off to their rooms. (laughter) I said -- and I said, “Well, dear Lord, I think I have saved someone from a problem. (laughs) Thank you very much for helping me.” You know? JS: That’s a great story. Really. LJ: But that -- it’s a very ’50s story. JS: It is. 8 �LJ: And it’s -- you know, I don’t downplay it. I’m very grateful that nothing happened to them, and I was sure as hell nothing was going to happen to me, baby, because I -(laughs) I would have punched him in the balls. JS: (inaudible) LJ: Pardon me. JS: (laughter) You took a lot of responsibility for them. LJ: I did. Yeah. JS: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. And they were -- they were very nice people. JS: To be in the -- in San Francisco in the ’50s, though -- LJ: Oh, yeah. JS: -- isn’t that something, that you -- LJ: Oh, yeah. JS: -- got yourself out there -- LJ: [00:12:00] Oh, yeah. It was wonderful. JS: -- to that place in particular? Really. LJ: It was just -- it was terrific. And we traveled all over the place. I enjoyed the work at the agency. Again, this rectitude thing of doing the right thing and not pandering to the commercial instincts of, you know, the United States, et cetera, I -- even though I was writing copy and doing stuff for them, and they liked me -- I probably could have stayed - but again, this made me leave them, because I got a job -- I said, “I think I’d much rather write for a newspaper.” So there was a place called the Presidio, which you’ve probably heard of. 9 �JS: I have. LJ: Presidio is, you know -- JS: Yeah, I’ve been there. LJ: It’s a -- it was a fortification, particularly in the Second World War. And it still was in activity. And there was a little newspaper called the Star Presidian. So I was hired as a feature writer. And so I went over there, and I used to take the bus every day, with the clouds of fog rolling in from the ocean, the [00:13:00] Pacific ocean, and go way over to the other side of the city of San Francisco. And I enjoyed that. And again, I had some funny experiences over there that you’ll appreciate, because I had no idea I was a lesbian. I knew women were very nice, and I -- I had had one boyfriend at Boston University, but that had ended, and it was perfectly okay with me that it ended. But I really -- I can remember having crushes on two or three girls at Boston University, but I said, “It’s just because they’re such good friends.” But I was bereft when I didn’t see them over vacation. Yeah. I’d feel like that. And I said, “Well, Lois, you know, that’s just because, you know, you love people, and they love you, et cetera.” So anyway -- so I’m at the Presidio. And it’s in a converted Quonset hut of some kind, which they had a lot left over from -- from the Second World War. And so we were on a, sort of, [00:14:00] a porch. There was an editor, sort of a rough guy. He and I got along, but he was, sort of, oppressive. And I wrote the features, so I didn’t have to be under his thumb all the time, but he was the editor. So I’m writing all kinds of features, going around the city, blah, blah. 10 �And I’m sitting there one day, and I -- I didn’t know who was next to us. There was a door here. I heard a lot of typewriters clacking. And then in comes a couple of women in uniform. The were WACs. And they were very interested in coming in to talk to me. And I said, “Well, isn’t this nice?” (laughter) I have a feeling that they were just looking me over, you know, because it was very -- it was rather plain to me later, you know, that this was so. JS: Uh-huh. LJ: So anyway, I tried a few strange experiences. Nothing with them, but I decided to go. And I went -- I might have gone with one of the girls from the -- the place up in the Hill, [00:15:00] the San Franc-- the residence. But we went down to what was called the Embarcadero. The Embarcadero, of course, was the -- the shipping area, which is now all high-rise, high expensive stuff. But in then -- those days, it was a bit of a slum, to a degree, but it had some interesting -- again, piano bars and places where people sang. And there was a woman singing, you know, the songs of the day, the ’60s and, sort of, all that stuff. So we went over there. And then we went to shops, which were in the, sort of, the gaslight section of -- of San Francisco. And I was -- and I’m sure -- I went to a bookstore, you know, naturally to go buy a book, so I could look as though I was reading Ulysses (JS laughs) or something. And there was a woman there who -- there was the strangest feeling I had come over me. I wasn’t at all attracted to her. In fact, I was a little afraid of her. And she [00:16:00] just, sort of, turned me off. But anyway, I met her again when I went to work -- I got another job, 11 �which was as a salesgirl, a side job, at the -- it was a department store. And she -- she was on my tail all the time, and I just -- I didn’t like that. She was following me around. JS: Your age? She was your age? LJ: Maybe she was a trifle bit older. JS: Mm-hmm. LJ: Yeah. And I said to myself, “There’s something strange going on here.” (laughs) And I just, sort of, edged away from her. She -- she didn’t frighten me, because I was never afraid of anything, but I was -- I just felt uncomfortable. And I’m sure she was a lesbian, too. So that was, sort of, my first -- the slight recognition up here. JS: Okay. LJ: So I went to -- JS: She’s interested in me in a sexual way. LJ: In a sexual way. JS: Yeah. LJ: And I got that. And I said, “Now, this is very peculiar. I’d better back off here.” JS: Yeah. LJ: And [00:17:00] so anyway, that was the whole experience that I had there. I had several jobs out there. And then I came back on what I call the iconic -- pardon me one second -bus trip. My father was dying. JS: Now, how many years had gone by? LJ: Just a couple. JS: You had a lot of jobs in just a couple of years. 12 �LJ: Mm-hmm. I did, because I kept changing things. It was just -- I think I stayed at the Star Presidian the longest. I liked it. So when my father -- when I knew that he was dying, I had to go back home again, so I -- I didn’t have much money. They sent me money from home, which was about enough to take the bus. So I took the Greyhound bus -- and I’ll always remember this -- across -- [00:18:00] without -- it wasn’t a sleeper, of course. (JS laughs) But it traveled across in two days, I think, or three days, stopping at -- you know, in the middle of the desert in -- at midnight. JS: Yeah, I’ve been there. (laughs) LJ: With no bathrooms. SB: Been there, done that. JS: Yeah. LJ: Out on the bus, sitting there just thinking about things, looking out the window, seeing tumbling tumbleweeds, seeing snowy mountains, just seeing the back end of a lot of places. JS: Oh, yeah. LJ: Because you’re never -- you never -- the bus terminal was always in some strange place in the city. JS: Did you come back the southern route? Did you get to see anything different? LJ: Yeah, we came back somewhat the southern route, and I saw some different things. And of course, you know, it’s a two-seater, you know. JS: Oh, yeah. LJ: And you never know who’s going to sit down beside you. So I was rather happy about this, but not that happy. I just didn’t want [00:19:00] male sitting beside me, because, 13 �again, I felt a little uncomfortable, because I was vulnerable. I was all by myself. So this elderly woman sits down beside me, and gave me a long lecture on the WCTU. Do you know what that is? JS: (laughs) Yes. LJ: And this went on -- JS: The Women’s -- LJ: -- for about a hundred miles. JS: -- Christian Temperance Union. LJ: Women’s Christian Temperance Union. JS: Yeah. LJ: And so -- and then we had -- then she brought out her Bible, (laughter) and started to read me Bible verses. And -- JS: You probably could have quoted them back at her. LJ: Oh, I could have quoted them back to her, quite, quite easily. But -- but that -- I’ll always remember that. And then coming into Boston. And then my father died fairly soon after that, and I had to stay in Boston, because my aunts wanted me to stay right there in Everett. But again, I knew enough to get my little rear end out of there. And my sister wasn’t [00:20:00] there. So I -- I did leave, and I went into Boston, and I worked for the Christian Science movement. I worked on what was called Committee on Publication, which was like a public relations department. And then I worked for the Christian Science Monitor Youth Forum, which had been a youth effort after the Second World War by the Christian Science church to engage 14 �young people. There was never any social activity in a Christian Science church except what you created yourself. There was never -- you know, like, you go to the Congo church or somebody else -- somebody’s going to have a potluck, or they’re going to have a dinner, or they’re going to have a fundraiser, or this, that, and the other. JS: I see. LJ: But there was nothing like that in our church. It was all strictly religious, Sunday and Wednesday. (laughs) And Sunday school, and lectures, et cetera. Which is not to say that, you know, there weren’t many people that I loved in the church. But -- but anyway, the Christian Science [00:21:00] Monitor Youth Forum was for young people, and they really -- you did all sorts of things. It was based on the Christian Science Monitor, [in an?] outreach of public affairs, and doing all kinds of things. We had dances. We had all kinds of youthful activities. So I did that. And at that time, I remet [Diane?]. JS: Oh, yeah. LJ: Mm-hmm. And Diane was my first. We -- she was a -- a vocalist, and I was playing the piano or the organ. And so we got together, and we were together for five years (inaudible). But it was in between there -- on the West Coast, I had no recognition of, you know, what was going on with me. But as soon as I got back to Boston, I -- I really - I think I had sexual feelings for Diane from before that were sublimated, you know. [00:22:00] So -- but -- JS: And by that time, you were how old, about? LJ: I was about 24. I’d say 24, 25, maybe. Somewhere in that -- in that thing. So let me see. We’re talking about that trip and about some work. Do you want to hear more about work? 15 �JS: In Boston? LJ: Mix it -- in Boston, yeah. Would that be good? JS: I think that you could mention what jobs you had. That would be good. LJ: Yeah. Okay, fine. Yeah. Yeah. After I finished at -- working for them, while I was living with Diane -- we lived in Brookline, on a top floor. In fact, I can see it every day (laughs) when we drive into Brookline now, which is amazingly funny, you know, when you see it. It was a, sort of, a garret apartment, but it was very comfortable. We enjoyed it. The landlady, of course, was a Christian Scientist. Diane was a Christian Scientist. Everybody (laughs) was a Christian Scientist in my life at that time. So anyway, we -[00:23:00] we both had a little trouble reconciling sexual activity with, you know, all the Christian doctrines -- JS: With the teachings. Oh, sure. LJ: -- and teachings, et cetera. But we decided -- I had one mantra at that time, which was, “Make yourself accessible to experience.” JS: Good for you. LJ: Which I liked. And I said, “You know, look. Let’s not get tied up with this.” But that doesn’t mean it was easy for me. It was very difficult for me, indeed. But we got along very well. However, she -- she was a very different person than what I really had, sort of, expected. She was a bit more promiscuous. There were a few other people entering her life when I was there, too, male and female. So that was not particularly joyous, shall we say. But we had a -- a five-year relationship. And we did a lot of traveling together, and we had a good time. But it finally ended, [00:24:00] and she left me, which was good. That -- that was a stroke of luck. (laughs) She left me. So anyway -- 16 �JS: Did you think of yourself in a coupled relationship, or did you have roles that you played, or anything like that? LJ: No, there was no role playing at all. It was two women. And it was just -- she, by the way, had worked for the Christian Science Monitor, or for the movement, at the time. She was a -- she was a mail person, mail delivery, M-A-I-L. And so we used to see one another at lunchtime for about 15 minutes as she’s delivering mail, and we were still working together while we were living together. Yeah. So that’s the way we met. But no, there were no roles. It was really two women. And the sexual thing seemed very, very normal to me. You know, it just came normally to me, as if -- JS: Did you know each other’s families at all? LJ: Pardon, please? JS: Did you know each other’s families? LJ: [00:25:00] Well, Diane did know my family to a degree, yeah. I brought her up to meet my sister, my nephew, and my brother-in-law, et cetera. She didn’t fit in that well. She was a strange person. But I knew her mother and her aunt, and -- her two aunts, in fact, and her brother and her sister. So we did know the families to one -- some degree, you know. JS: Sounds like that was, kind of, just a natural -- LJ: Yeah. JS: -- thing, too. Not a big deal. LJ: It was not a big deal, no. It wasn’t a big deal. So after I finished working for the Christian Science church, I -- let me see. What was my -- my next job? Oh, yeah. JS: You’re now in your thirties. 17 �LJ: Yeah, I’m now getting up to my late twenties. And I -- [00:26:00] WGBH was just coming online. The Lowell Institute, I guess, which had put it together. And I was fascinated by it, and I’d watch it on television at home, and I’d say, “You know, I should really go,” but I -- it seemed very much like a man’s world, and it was. But I had a degree in journalism, and so I said, “You know, I don’t want to work for the church all this time. It’s making me a little edgy, because I think they’re probably not going to be very welcoming if they find out I’m a lesbian.” And I didn’t use -- I couldn’t use the word. I couldn’t own the word lesbian at that time. JS: But you knew it. LJ: I knew it, because I’d read a lot of books. JS: Oh, okay. LJ: You know, all the books that -- all that trash, you know, the trash that came out in that period. JS: Pulp novels. LJ: Yeah. “We live -- we walk along through Lesbos’s lonely groves.” JS: Oh, yeah. (Laughs) LJ: Oh, God. Or the -- what was the other one? SB: Radclyffe Hall. JS: The Well of Loneliness. LJ: Radclyffe Hall, The Well of Loneliness. SB: What was that? The Well of Loneliness. (JS laughs) LJ: [00:27:00] And I said, “But I’m not lonely. What kind of -- you know, what kind of stuff is this, anyway? This is weird, man. But that’s not me.” You know? Or you’d think of - 18 �- all people really knew in those days was somebody who went to a bar, somebody who drank heavy, and that’s a lesbian, et cetera. And I said, “That’s not me. I don’t drink at all. I’m not that way. I’m an intellectual. I don’t like that stuff. What am I -- what’s going to happen to me here?” Well, Diane and I were not that way, you know, and I said, “There probably is nobody else out there except, like -- we’re the only ones there.” JS: Oh, really? Okay. You went through that. LJ: That’s -- that’s the way it went, yeah. So that was difficult. But anyway, I decided that I’d just gear myself up and go over to WGBH and see if they had a job. Somewhere along the line, in the true ’50s fashion, someone had said to me, even though I had degrees and grades way up in the [00:28:00] A’s, said, “Every woman should learn how to type.” And I said -- (laughter) JS: Okay. That was a good silent word that you just said. We can all imagine what that is. LJ: Oh, yeah. I didn’t know that word in those days. But I said, “I really don’t want to,” but I did. JS: Oh, you did? LJ: I went and I got -- I took a long, long course in how to type, so that I knew how to use electric typewriters. (laughs) And so I had that skill, and I went, and I applied for a secretarial job. JS: At WGBH. LJ: At WGBH. Even with all my degrees, I took the secretarial job. And I worked for David Ives, who was the head of WGBH, for probably a couple of years for him. JS: As a secretary? 19 �LJ: As a secretary, yes. And then I went further into it. In those days, it was the kind of -it’s different from the stratified way that I think things are done these days in business. If you went in at a certain level, [00:29:00] you could rise. Nowadays, you stay at that certain level, maybe improve your grade in that level. But I went up, and I became part of the 21-Inch Classroom, which is -- which was the first outreach of WGBH to schools. JS: What’s that word? LJ: The 21-Inch Classroom. JS: Twenty-one inch -- oh, classroom. LJ: That “21-Inch” refers to the television. JS: Sure. Of course. SB: Right. LJ: And so I was not producing programs at that point, but I was the person who took care of all the scheduling, the typing up of the scheds, the making of the scheds, et cetera, for the 21-Inch Classroom. So I rose to that. When my boss decided to leave, I said, “You know, I really would like to become a production assistant.” So I began to work my way into production assistance, and I went from there to associate producer, and then I became a producer. So you could make your way up. And I stayed 20 years. JS: Ah. SB: Wow. LJ: And so I worked at GBH. [00:30:00] I did mainly children’s program. I worked for the education -- JS: So from 30-ish till 50 is when you were there? LJ: Well, approximately, yeah. Approximately, yeah. And I worked -- 20 �JS: Or late twenties to late forties. LJ: That’s right. That’s right. Till late forties. And I really enjoyed that tremendously. I did an enormous amount of travel towards the end of that, all over the United States and Hawaii, and produced programs on teenage children, which was done under a grant. There was a -- in the parlance of the day, the ’70s, there was a word, rebop, which I’m still not quite sure what it means. But there was a black executive producer, who was a great guy, Topper Carew. Topper and I were great friends. We used to high five it. JS: Topper? LJ: Topper. T-O-P-P-E-R. Because he liked unusual hats, he called himself Topper. Topper Carew. JS: And his last name was what? LJ: Carew. C-A-R-E-W. JS: Oh. LJ: Yeah. [00:31:00] Anyway, Topper came with his project to WGBH. And there was lots of money available in the US government at that time for the -- what was called the, quote, “the reducing of minority group isolation.” JS: Oh. LJ: And this was in reference to schools. So one was -- what you were supposed to do is produce programs which would help other youngsters, mainline youngsters, say, white kids who were in the classes who didn’t know much about African American kids, Hispanic kids, Asian American, or particular minority groups, ethnic groups within that. So they had a black producer -- these are all working under Topper as an exec -- they had a Hispanic producer. Then they had all of these other people. All the Native Americans, 21 �all of the Asians. And they said, “Hmm. Lois is free. [00:32:00] Okay. You want to do this?” I said sure. So -- (laughs) JS: Free meaning you weren’t busy, or -- LJ: I wasn’t busy. It was the end of another -- of the education department. JS: You were -- finished another project. LJ: They were finishing that off. And so I got to travel all over the US. I went to Indian reservations. I went to Hawaii and produced programs on Japanese American and native Polynesian kids. JS: Oh, my gosh. LJ: I went to all -- all kinds of kids across the country. I was in Seattle a lot. I was -- JS: What an experience. LJ: It was really loads of fun. JS: On your own, you went around? LJ: Well, actually, it wasn’t I. We had a whole stratified thing. I had an associate producer. I had a -- I had a production assistant. I had a whole film crew. And what we would do is, send out the associate producer after we’d done some research. She would come up with probably three or four kids that she thought [00:33:00] would make a good story. We did 15 -- 15, 20 minute films. And so then we would go out -- the associate, the production assistant, and I would go out and check them all out, decide which ones we were going to do, set it all up. Then we’d make the schedule, and we’d have a film crew from GBH, and we’d travel. I traveled for nearly three years, three weeks in and three weeks out, (laughs) until I was nearly an exhausted nub of Lois Johnson. There was about this much left. 22 �JS: How did you -- what was your main mode of travel? Was this on the train? LJ: Oh, airplane. JS: Airplane. Okay. LJ: Airplanes, yeah. JS: Well, yeah, three weeks, you’d have to. LJ: We flew -- oh, yeah. We flew everywhere. And so we spent time. We’d do the East Coast trip. We did Georgia. We did North Carolina. We did some Native Americans from down south. We did the Midwestern trip. We did the Arizona trip. [00:34:00] We did the West Coast trip. We did the Hawaiian trip. And we -- and in between, we also had a wonderful -- the associate producer couldn’t -- we had a board, who had to look at all of our films and approve them before they went out to the public. And they were a multicultural board. We had Japanese, we had Chinese, we had Hispanic, we had Native American, we had women, we had all kinds of people from all walks of life. And the only way they could compensate that board was to take them on trips and put them up -you know, pay for the -- all the food, et cetera. So we went, and all the producers were required to go, too. So I ended up going everywhere. I mean, you’d not only be out of town three weeks, but you’d be on these long weekends where you’d be, say, in South Carolina, because we were producing something down there, or people wanted to go there. And [00:35:00] we’d just go down there for a big trip, have several dozen meals, sit down and watch films, answer questions, and then come back. So I was just -- it’s, like, ping, pong, ping, pong (laughter) for all those years. But it was good. JS: Did you have days off while you were away, too? LJ: Did I do what? 23 �JS: Did you have days off? LJ: Not really. Once in awhile there would be a half day that you could squeeze in, and you could go sightseeing and do certain things, but -- and we also -- we had a lot of meals. We had -- you know, not that we had overly generous stuff, but, you know, we’d eat out together, or we’d eat by ourselves. So we got to see a lot of the country in the ’70s. This was from about ’72 to ’78, something like that. And then after -- and on one of the trips, after we had had our work with GBH, I had enough money left over [00:36:00] that I said to her, “We’re going to turn in my first class ticket.” JS: You said to who? LJ: I said to Sheri. “We’re going to” -- JS: Okay. By then, you were with Sheri. LJ: Oh, excuse me. I -- I forgot. Now I’ve got to [put in?] -- JS: We didn’t -- (laughter) LJ: “We’re going to turn in my first class ticket. We’re going to get two tickets, and we’re going to go take a trip up” -- another iconic trip, which is to go as far as you can possibly go in California on Route 1, where when you drive, you look down, and there’s the Pacific Ocean, and if you don’t watch out, you’ll be in it. (laughter) So -- well, anyway, that’s -- that’s what I did at GBH. But I’ll go back. Diane left me in -- when did she leave? Around ’63, I guess. And we had both been -- because we were both musical, we had spent a lot of time with the boys, as I called them, who were all pretty much members of the American Guild of Organists. Or, you know, we’d have all sorts of parties with them, and, et cetera. Anyway, [00:37:00] Sheri met me at one of the ice water parties 24 �that were given by one of the guys who was a -- quite a fabulous pianist in addition to being an engineer. JS: An ice water party? LJ: It was called an ice water party, because nobody had the money to really pay for a lot of food, so -- JS: That’s a wonderful idea. LJ: -- so -- (laughter) so you’d have ice water. And there would be probably -- these started with Diane, and I had met them there, obviously. And there’d probably be 20 guys sitting around, and two people, at that time, Diane and I. And then after Diane left my life, it was Sheri and I introduced it to the group. JS: It was -- LJ: It was Sheri and I at that point. JS: And -- okay. And I know that Sheri came to those and saw you there. LJ: And she saw me there, and heard me play the piano. And as she said, her favorite words are, that I played Brahms. It was a beautiful piano. It was a Bechstein. Great, [00:38:00] nice, grand, beautiful piano. And it was Brahms, and I had -- I liked the Brahms piece I played. It was an impromptu. And she was just amazed, you know. And she was interested in me, and she said I -- “She played the piano. We’re going to spend the rest of our lives together. I don’t know how I’m going to do it, but that’s going to happen.” (laughs) I was a goner from there, you see. There was no chance. (laughter) But any-- JS: Well, it’s good you’d had a life before that, because then you could -- LJ: Oh, yeah. JS: You knew what was going on. 25 �LJ: It’s a good thing I had come out. As she said, “I wouldn’t have wanted to bring you out, because that would have been a difficult thing.” And so I was -- I was definitely out and identifying as a gay woman. I, again, still couldn’t -- I couldn’t -- I couldn’t own the word lesbian. I just -- it had a taint to it at that time. JS: Oh, yeah. And you’re -- [00:39:00] so you were 30 or more, a little bit. LJ: I was about 32 at that time. JS: Thirty-two. LJ: Yeah, when I came -- when Sheri and I got together. And we -- you know, we bonded. And she -- I was still living in Brookline, and Diane had left, so I was left with the rent, which was expensive for those days, 75 bucks. You know, that was a lot of money, because I was only making about 60, I think. And so -- or maybe I was making a little more by that time. I might have made 70 bucks a week. (laughs) And so she said, “Well, why don’t you come live with me?” Calculation. (laughter) And I said, “Okay.” (laughter) So we went, and she had worked on a house in Charlestown owned by a couple of lesbians, and she had helped them, so she had the top floor apartment, which was quite nice. It had a balcony bedroom, and it had a [00:40:00] kitchen downstairs, elementary kitchen, and it had a large living room and a little library she’d made. She’d done beautiful work. She’d done everything from knocking down walls to plasterboard, and putting it up again, and all kinds of stuff. JS: Meaning Sheri did this. LJ: Sheri did this. She’s -- she was excellent at that when she was young. And so we lived there for about a year or so. And then the group of guys -- and she also knew a crazy guy -- well, first off, where we lived after that was we lived near the Fenway. We lived on a 26 �street called Greenleaf Street. And Greenleaf Street was where the campus -- the [football line?] of Northeastern is now. It’s no longer a street. But there were little houses. If you look at the houses in the South End that had the square front, like the one of ours that we had in the South End, well, these were miniatures of those. JS: I see. LJ: And they were being managed [00:41:00] by a company hired by Northeastern at that time, just so they could extract money from them. So for 125 bucks a month, we got a whole house, and we had to supply our own heat, et cetera. And it was in not the greatest of condition. It was all right. But it was a single family, so that was really -- JS: You were renting, or you -- LJ: We rented it. Yeah, we rented it. And we stayed there for a couple years. And then the boys that we knew -- there was a -- there were some gay guys living down the street that we got to know very well. And then she also had a crazy friend named Arthur. He was really -- he had a Jesus com-- (laughs) complex, I think. But he was working in real estate, not as an official broker, but -- An elderly woman who liked gay men had adopted him, I guess, not formally, but they lived in the South End on Rutland Square. JS: That was a pretty common pattern, wasn’t it? Yeah. LJ: That’s right, in those days. And the South End was going to hell [00:42:00] in a basket. It was -- they wanted to tear it all down, as they were doing over at the Eight Streets area or the New York Streets area. So Arthur was in the business of trying to keep them from doing that, and so was his sponsor. So he would -- he said to her, “You girls have got to buy a house.” And we said, “Are you crazy? (laughs) Buy a house? Number one, we’re two women, and we’re gay. Number two, we don’t have any money. (laughter) We 27 �don’t have any savings accounts.” And so he said, “Okay, Lois. Give me a -- give me a down payment.” I said, “What do you want?” “What have you got in your pocket?” I said, “I have a buck.” He said, “Okay.” Take this buck, and I -- he gave me a receipt, which I kept for years, which said, “Received of Lois Johnson one dollar as a down payment on a house.” JS: Amazing. LJ: [00:43:00] Then he showed us two houses. SB: Get out of here. LJ: Isn’t that something? (laughs) Then he showed us two houses. One was on Milford Street, and one was on West Canton Street near where the West Walk is now, you know, where the -- they were going to put in that long division between Back Bay and et cetera - but anyway, it’s a walkway. It’s a greenway now. So we chose the one on Milford Street, which was very much a derelict house. The other one was, too. They were all derelict. They had been occupied -- they were all rooming houses at that time. There were 12 rooms in the house we bought. They’d been occupied by Native American guys who had come down from -- oh, the northern New England states -- to build the Prudential Center, because they could walk the high iron. They had perfect balance. And unfortunately, [00:44:000] alcohol had brought them all down to a bad end, and they were living in the South End, which was considered the alcoholics capital of the world at that time. JS: I see. Now, these houses that had the 12 rooms, had they formerly been places where wealthy people lived? LJ: Oh, yes, yes. 28 �JS: That’s what I thought. LJ: They were -- it was an 1860s house. It had an architrave on the top, front door. It had four stories and a basement. But everything was in derelict condition. There was no real kitchen in it. There were bath -- bathrooms, but they were very, very elementary, et cetera. Anyway, we had a good friend named [Freddy, Freddy Hartman?], our dear friend who is still living, thank God, and is out in California. He’s retired now. And Freddy moved in with us, and he took a room, so he rented from us, so we had a little bit of income. And we said to Arthur, “Well, [00:45:00] we can’t [qualify for a mortgage?].” He said, “Don’t worry about it now, girls.” He said, “I’ll rent it to you, and then you do some work on it, and I’ll get you a mortgage.” So we did some work. We created an apartment on the ground floor, which we rented. We had Freddy upstairs. And Freddy helped us clean it up. We had to take out six layers of linoleum on most of the place. Sheri put in new locks. She could even do that. But we threw everything out the back window, because being naïve and not knowing about these places, we thought, you know, it was a drivable alley -- we should have checked -and we could pick it up, you know? As it turn out, after we’d done all this, and we’d done a lot of painting in the place, and cleaned it up a little bit, we said, “Well, now let’s clean up the backyard, and let’s drive it out.” Couldn’t do it, because the alley was a small alley, only about as wide as this, you know. JS: Oh, okay. Yeah. 29 �LJ: Not wide enough for a car. So we had to take every [00:46:00] single solitary piece of linoleum and every other piece of crap, (laughs) including furniture, out of there by hand in a wheelbarrow. (laughter) You know -- JS: That gave you some exercise. LJ: Yeah, I know, I know. So anyway, we moved in, and then Sheri, at one point -- not there, but at another point, she had said she was very interested in framing. So we were close to the museum at the other -- this is at another place where we were, on Greenleaf Street. So I’m just telling you when she went into framing. JS: Yeah, okay. LJ: So back around, in those early years -- because we got together in -- we call February 8, 1964, our initial point. She was interested in that, so I said, “Look, why don’t you start it?” So she started it. And then when she got over to Greenleaf Street -- I mean, to Milford Street, she decided -- we decided together that she could become [00:47:00] a framer, and so she started a framing business in the house, and that’s where she started. JS: Oh, I see. LJ: Yeah. Yeah. And we had to put a -- an elementary kitchen on the top floor, and we had bedrooms, two bedrooms there, and Freddy had his bedroom, so we had three bedrooms. And we had, I think, one bath (laughs) upstairs with a bathtub and a -- you know, just the elementary thing you put in for a shower. It was -- it was very elementary, but it was exciting, because this was 1966, and the South End was just beginning, and some people like us were moving in, and who would know that today -- or as we did -- a house that we ultimately bought for 28,500, we would sell in 2014 -- 2015 for three million dollars. JS: [00:48:00] Whoa. What a fortunate thing that -- 30 �LJ: That’s -- JS: -- Arthur helped you get it. LJ: -- that’s the only reason we’re here. (laughs) JS: Yeah. SB: Wow. LJ: Now, from that, of course, we put a lot into it. We put probably -- JS: Well, yes. LJ: -- two hundred or three hundred thousand into it at the time. It wasn’t our money, but it was the bank’s money. We kept -- during the time that we owned that, I refinanced it once, and we sold it within three years, because we -- there were things that were happening in the neighborhood that were very difficult. It was a sad neighborhood. It was occupied by people who were really down and out. My family looked at it when the came to pick me up for Christmas or whatever and said, “Lois, what are you two girls doing in this neighborhood?” We said, “There’s nothing bad about it. I mean, it’s sad, but it’s not unsafe.” JS: Good for you. LJ: There were no drugs there at that time. There were alcoholics. There were some alcoholics that were -- [00:49:00] you know, the ambulance from the city of Boston would come every week. There’d be somebody who’d die across the street in a room. They’d haul them off to a pauper’s grave. There was a woman next door that we just loved, and she had a son -- and that’s another story I won’t get into, a long one, but -- we called her Ma, and she became our best friend down there. And we were able to help her, 31 �and she helped us. And she -- (laughs) she didn’t -- she didn’t bother her that we were gay, you know. JS: She knew? I mean -- LJ: Well, eventually. JS: Okay. But you started your business around this time, too? LJ: Yeah. Yeah, she started her business. And everybody down there Sheri came out to, you know, as she was framing. JS: Oh, really? Uh-huh. LJ: She -- she had no fear, because she was self-employed. (JS laughs) And we’d go to -- we still were in that old thing where you’d go to a Christmas party somewhere, and you’d bring a guy with you, one of your gay friends. JS: Oh, right. LJ: But anyway, that’s -- JS: What work were you doing [00:50:00] then? LJ: I was still at GBH. JS: Oh, okay, right. LJ: I was still at GBH. JS: Until your late forties, right. LJ: Yeah, yeah. JS: And we’re only up to 30 in your personal life now, yeah. LJ: Yeah, yeah. So that was -- JS: Mid-thirties, I think. 32 �LJ: Mid-thirties. There are all kinds of stories I can tell you there, but I -- I’d better get on with (laughs) things, or you’ll be here for a -- the next year. JS: Yeah, that would be good. We could -- you know, we can always double back, like another time. LJ: We can double back, yeah. JS: Because you’ve got a million stories that are good. LJ: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. JS: So yeah, you’re right. LJ: Yeah, there are lots of stories, yeah. JS: Go ahead and move ahead. LJ: Yeah. JS: Because we want to get to all the part that has to do with your -- your gay life, your leadership. LJ: Sure, my gay life, yeah, yeah. JS: You -- LJ: Yeah. JS: -- had an instrumental part in what was going on in Boston at some point (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LJ: Oh, yeah, we did. We did. Yeah, we did. JS: Yeah. LJ: Well, at that point -- and let me see now. Where were we when this happened? We were feeling a little isolated as a gay couple, because we knew a lot of guys, [00:51:00] but we didn’t really know any women, and we didn’t know where to go look for women that 33 �were of the same type of woman that we were. We didn’t -- we weren’t drinkers. We didn’t carouse around. We didn’t hang out in bars. So I remember there was a magazine called the Want Advertiser. You remember that? JS: I do, yeah. LJ: So what we did was we wrote an ad that we were looking for people to -- you know, women to come and, you know, just be friends. So -- JS: That’s [sort of, too?] what -- LJ: -- I’m not quite sure how it was worded. She -- she knows, sometimes, a lot of these more -- in a better detail than I can. But anyway, as a result of that ad, we met some women. It was out in Littleton, I think, we went to visit somebody [00:52:00] who was gay. And there were a lot of gay women there. So we met some gay women there, and particularly one -- JS: Did you say in Littleton? LJ: Littleton. Littleton, Mass. JS: That’s a trip. LJ: Oh, yeah. It was -- nothing was a trip for us in those days. Just get in the car and go. (laughs) I always had a car, from the time I could drive. I always had a car. And I drove. (laughs) Anyway, we -- we went out to Littleton, and we -- in that, I’ll -- there’s lots of other stories connected with it, but I won’t get into those. But the most important one is, there was a woman named Jan Chase, J-A-N Chase. JS: I remember you mentioned her before. LJ: Yeah. Jan was a really -- a lovely person. And we met Jan at that point. So we got to be friends with her. She bought a house in Allston, which was a -- a brownstone -- there are 34 �some in Allston -- on a street over there. [00:53:00] And we got acquainted with her. And we were friends with her, so we met some of the women that she knew. The unfortunate thing for Jan was that she did have a drinking problem, also, but it didn’t show up too much, you know, because she was able to hide it. She worked for Houghton Mifflin, which was a publishing -- a very famous publishing company in Boston. And I don’t know if she was a copywriter or what she was, or a proofer, or whatever. But she lived in Boston at one point. We went to that apartment there. Then she bought a house in Allston. She had a house in South End, whatever. So we were friends with her. She also had a place in the country, which was out beyond Littleton in Acton. A little country retreat in a forest. So she’d invite us out there, et cetera. So one time she said, “You know, I particularly want [00:54:00] you folks to come out, because I’d like you to come for dinner, and I want to talk to you about something.” But she didn’t tell us what. So we went. We had dinner with her. This was probably ’68. Sixty-eight, I guess. And she -- we had the dinner. It was a lovely little place, great big fireplace, nice little cottage hideaway. And she said, “The reason I invited you girls here is that I really want to start a chapter of Daughters of Bilitis in Boston.” And we were familiar with what Daughters of Bilitis was, but we didn’t know a great deal about it. But we were interested, and we would have -- we wanted to go ahead with it, but Sheri said, “Lois, we can’t risk your job, because you’re making the money that’s keeping us alive.” And she was making money, but not much at that time. And she said, “We just can’t -- can’t [00:55:00] do that and have your name associated with this.” So we said to 35 �Jan, after we’d talked it over, “We’re so sorry, but we -- we just can’t do it. We’re too -we’re not in the closet at the moment” -- we didn’t use those words in those days, but -JS: Right. LJ: -- we were afraid for our jobs. And that was a -- a palpable fear in those days. Probably not if I’d used my head at -- over at WGBH, because a lot of the men over there were gay. In fact, one of the directors -- in fact, the president at that time was gay, and his lover was the head of the radio broadcasting. So -- but -- and I shouldn’t have been afraid, but I was afraid. So -- JS: I think that makes perfect sense. LJ: Yeah. So at that time, we didn’t go ahead with it. We remained friends with Jan. She told us about things that were going on. And the first church that opened themselves, they did -- [00:56:00] she did go ahead, and I want Janice Chase to be indelibly marked as the founder of the DOB chapter in Boston. JS: All right. She went ahead with it, then? LJ: No one else has given her any credit, and the woman worked really hard. JS: Oh, really? LJ: No. There were all kinds of things that happened that we won’t get into now that were the reason for that. But anyway, we went to a few things, and it was mainly at the Arlington Street Church, which was the first -- the Unitarian church -- to offer a space to gay women or to gay men to come, you know, with their fact that they were not prejudiced people. And we went to one of them, and we were just -- we said, “It’s, sort of, as we thought.” In one corner are the people who are just gossiping, you know, like the old -- the old style (laughs) gay woman -- yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, about -- 36 �and I don’t know if they were having coffee or drinking, or whatever they were doing. And on the other end are the -- the beginnings of the lesbian feminists. And (inaudible) [00:57:00] and I said, “Where do we fit in? We don’t belong in either of those groups. Let’s get out of here.” (laughs) So we went up the back stairs very quietly, left, and didn’t go back. (JS laughs) Then something else happened. We -- we met somebody else along the way. I can’t remember where we met her. Somewhere along the way. Anyway, she -- I guess we met her at -- I’m trying to remember how we made a transition into DOB. I think we went to something in 1970, and then we -- we decided that it had become an organization that we could affiliate ourselves with, and so they were -- at that point, where were they meeting? They were meeting at the 419 Boylston Street when -JS: Jan was still in the helm? Jan Chase? LJ: [00:58:00] Jan Chase was halfway, at that point. Let me think of how that happened. Sheri would probably remember. I should have thought about this before. Let me think for -- JS: That’s okay. If you want to leave it for her, you can. LJ: -- let me think for one second now. What happened there? Jan did -- 1970 -- yeah. Yeah, 1970. Where were they? They were still -- yeah. I guess Jan was still associated with it. No, she’d been ousted by that point. She’d been ousted by that point. And somebody else was president of it. There was another whole group of people. Yeah. This is about 1970, just at the beginning of the lesbian feminist movement. 37 �So we got involved. And they -- they met, at that point, at a building called 419 Boylston, which is not 419 as it is now. That’s a newer building. And it -- they used to -they began the rap sessions there, which were weekly meetings where gay women could, you know, sit around on the floor [00:59:00] and talk. And there was a leader, a nominal leader, but just -- they were sitting in the offices of the -- say, the Homophile Union of Boston, or there was also a -- a therapy service at that time. The name escapes me -- and they had rented those rooms from whoever owned 419 at that time, and they made one of them available to us. And so at that point, we went to some of those, and we got acquainted with that. And so we got very active in the organization at that point, because we -- we got very interested, particularly in the rap sessions, where people came in and -women came in and had a chance to just discuss everything. JS: Like once a week or something? LJ: That’s right. And Jan Chase’s name was never mentioned at that point. But we -- which is quite normal for me -- eventually I became president of the organization. Sheri was president for one year, [01:00:00] for the -- again, for the same reason. As she said, “Lois, you can’t be president, because you’re working, and if you lose your job --” And so (laughs) we were just very, very cautious. But we were -- we went there every week, you know, practically. Every week there was a rap session. And so from there, our interest in DOB began, and we really began to see it as an organization that could really help people. And we wanted to get involved in it. So I think I was secretary at that point, and maybe she was -- yeah, and she was president for a year. And then there was a great big fiasco. The lesbian feminists came in, and it was right at 38 �the height of everything. And there were probably -- I don’t know, maybe 10 of them in the organization. And we -- we welcomed everybody. But they wanted to -- they felt we weren’t [01:01:00] strong enough, that we weren’t feminist enough, et cetera, that we weren’t doing what they should be doing. And, you know, they were filled with hubris, you know, as to what they felt they could do with it. So one of them ran for president against -- I guess it was against Sheri. Yeah. Yeah, it was against Sheri, because Sheri was put up as a candidate, too. And we just said, “We’re not going to let them take over this organization and just change it completely from what it is.” So we went out, and we lobbied with all of our friends, and we got all the votes in, and she won by 43 votes, I think. And so she was president for a year. I was secretary. And then it went from there. After that, she said, “I don’t want to be president anymore, Lois. Why don’t you run?” I ran, and I was president for nearly 20 years, because nobody else really wanted to be president. JS: What happened to the 10 who wanted to take over? LJ: Well, it was -- they -- it was perfectly open to them to stay and work with us, [01:02:00] but they didn’t want to be bothered with us. JS: They were younger? LJ: Oh, they were younger than us. JS: Was that -- that was the -- yeah. LJ: They were younger. JS: The wave -- 39 �LJ: They were -- we were probably -- eh, probably in our early forties, and they were probably in their late twenties, early thirties, and they thought we were a bunch of old stick-in-the-muds. JS: Right. SB: Yeah. LJ: That we were not doing enough push, push. We weren’t lying in the streets. We weren’t yelling and screaming on the sidewalks as much. And so -- JS: That was a struggle going on -- LJ: Yeah. JS: -- lots of places. SB: Yeah. LJ: Yeah, there was a lot of stuff going on. JS: Yeah. LJ: And we were not there. What I always saw the organization as was -- I’ll back up and say this. The very fact of being a lesbian or a gay woman in those days was a radical act, and being known to your friends, or being known to even your family or somebody else, or being known to one another as gay people, was a radical act, [01:03:00] because so much could have happened to you. And we all know what could have happened to you. JS: Right. LJ: You’d lose your job. You’d lose your standing. You’d lose your ability to do this. You - you’d be in deep doo-doo. (laughs) So -- so we took our stand. But we felt that we were providing a service for gay women who really needed it; who were isolated, as we 40 �had been; who needed a place where they could talk; who needed friends; and we saw it more as a social organization with a certain amount of edgy component to it. JS: How many people were in it at that point? LJ: At that point, there were probably -- maybe 50 members, 60 members. JS: Okay. LJ: It grew at its height to probably 150 to 200. It was never a huge organization. So we put together [01:04:00] the rap sessions. At that point, we had a telephone where people could call in and leave a message. And people would call -- you know, desperate mothers, people whose children were being taken away from them; people who were, you know -- women in abusive relationships with men; all kinds of things. I mean, it was just, like -- we were not really prepared, technically, to do those things, but people would come to the -- the group, and they’d just stand up and say, “I don’t know what to do. I love my children. But I’m in love with this woman.” You know? And so eventually, we formed more and more rap sessions out of this. JS: Oh, yeah. LJ: But we did all sorts of social activities. We did dinners. We had a pre-Thanksgiving dinner every year, which was for women who were isolated from their families and didn’t get a Thanksgiving [01:05:00] dinner. We had Christmas parties at our house. We had Valentine’s parties. By this time, we had bought the big house. We had four or five fundraisers a year. We had subgroups of all kinds. I -- we had a group that loved to go out orienteering and mountain climbing. We had people who loved to play softball. We had people who loved to just have a book group. We had people who just wanted to come to the raps or lead the raps. We had people who liked to plan dances. 41 �We had a huge calendar. Sheri and I, for about 20 years, used to get our calendar at the beginning of the year, and we’d mark in all the stuff that we were doing. In addition to all the work she was doing, all the traveling I was doing, we’d fit in whatever we could in terms of when the parties were going to be, where they were going to be, at our house, or who was going to do this or that, and we’d have all 12 months planned, [01:06:00] because we had so much activity going on. We were busy. Every single week, there was something going on. At the height of it, DOB had six -- I think there were probably at least two raps a week, and we had a group for women, you know, 18 and up -- you had to be 18 to join, so we couldn’t be accused of child molesting or something. Then we had a group for women who were a little bit older, up to, say, 50, 60. Then we had a group for really older lesbians. We had a group for mothers. We had a group -- another group. I think we had six different groups. And we had leaders for all these groups. And they would meet. And then we developed plans. We had little seminars we held for ourselves on, what should we be doing? We realized that none of us were professionals. If somebody was suicidal -- [01:07:00] and there were suicidal people, women, who came in, who were escorted off to the hospital by some of our leaders. And there were people who came in, you know, inevitably -- thank God, guns were maybe not as prevalent as they are now, but women who came in who were slightly disturbed. We’ve had some people who were carrying, you know, guns. At least they told us they were. And we just said, “Well, just 42 �keep it in your pocket. We don’t want to see it.” And we had our discussions. We also had some very aggressive people who were nasty. They were not physically nasty, but boy, they didn’t like me, and they didn’t like anybody. They didn’t like Sheri, so they -- and I just ignored them and said, “Look, you can come, but you’re not going to be nasty, in my group at least. So decide what you want.” (laughs) I had to be -JS: And all this went on at the big house? LJ: This went -- well, not all at my house. [01:08:00] All of the raps went on at 419 Boylston Street. JS: Okay, good. LJ: Until the American Baptist church approached us one day, probably after we’d been there a couple of years at 419, and said, “We had our outreach group on how to help oppressed groups in our society.” JS: Okay. LJ: “And we decided that lesbians are an oppressed group.” And we said, “Yes, indeed.” “And we invite you to rent, at a very nominal rent, a room in our church, at the Old Cambridge Baptist Church, in Cambridge.” JS: Do you know, I met the current pastor last week. LJ: What is her name? Or is it a man? JS: His name -- it’ll come to me. I can’t think of it right at the moment. LJ: Whatever. I -- I probably don’t know him. JS: Yeah. I’ve got it written in my book. 43 �LJ: That’s okay. JS: Do you want to take a break? LJ: Yeah, let’s take a break. JS: Oh, wait. We should wait for Sarah to turn the machine off. LJ: Yeah. JS: So do you want to tell about -- LJ: [01:09:00] Yeah. JS: -- some -- LJ: Oh, yeah, they invited us. JS: The American Baptist church -- LJ: The American Baptists. And I believe -- JS: -- in Cambridge. LJ: In Cambridge. And it was, I think, a gay minister at that point, but the congregation agreed that they could rent -- at Old Cambridge, that they could rent a room to us. And it was, sort of, a choir loft they rented to us for -- I don’t know, 60 bucks a month or something like that. And we were able to afford that rent. And so we held our raps there. And we were outgrowing it. It was on the second floor. So we were able to get enough donations so we could rent another room that became available across the hall, which was a great big high-ceilinged room. And we had a library there. We had all our raps there. We used to have -- we even had some dances there. And, you know, programs for people, like our business meetings were held there. And we had that room for, oh, a good 15 years, I would say. JS: [01:10:00] I thought of the name of the current pastor. 44 �LJ: What is it? JS: His name is Cody Sanders. LJ: Cody Sanders. JS: He’s just been recruited there. He’s been there for, I think, around a year. LJ: Really? Mm-hmm. I -- I guess -- JS: He came from the South, maybe -- LJ: The South, yeah. JS: -- South Carolina. LJ: Cody is, sort of, a Southern first name -- JS: Yeah. LJ: -- isn’t it? Yeah. JS: Shall we -- LJ: I didn’t -- I am -- yeah, you want to take a break? SB: No, no. JS: We were thinking -- no? SB: Go ahead. JS: Okay. LJ: No. Okay. You’re fine? Are you fine? JS: Yeah. LJ: You need a break? Need the bathroom? JS: No. LJ: Okay. Fine. (laughter) Anyway, we went over there. I was just talking about going over to the Old Cambridge Baptist Church. And the Old Cambridge Baptist Church was great 45 �to us. They also let us rent a room downstairs, in which we had our pre-Thanksgiving dinners every year. And -SB: Could you just tell me what year that was that you moved over? Do you remember? LJ: Oh, the year that we went there? SB: Yeah. LJ: [01:11:00] I’ll have to get -- I can probably verify this from the Schlesinger records, but I think -- let me see. Nineteen seventy, ’72. It was somewhere in the vicinity of 1975 -- SB: Okay. LJ: -- I think. Somewhere around there. Yeah. So we -- we would go downstairs, and they had a kitchen downstairs, you know, as churches do. It was an elementary kitchen, but everybody [clubbed?] together [of all?] the -- all the people, and Sheri cooked many a turkey in her time, and we would bring them all over there. We wouldn’t cook them there. And we’d have a full Thanksgiving dinner, you know, all the fixings. And then there was a woman at one point, a young woman, who was a pastry chef, and she made about six different kinds of pies, and brought them over there. So we would have this full Thanksgiving dinner as a -- JS: For, like, how many people, would [01:12:00] you say? LJ: Well, we’d probably have a hundred women come. JS: Okay. LJ: And then we would always have a skit, which was put together by people, which was -one of them, one of the first ones, was on the aunt who comes to Thanksgiving dinner, the single aunt who comes to Thanksgiving dinner, (SB laughs) who is -- JS: It’s like what PFLAG does -- 46 �LJ: That’s right. That’s right. JS: -- in preparation for the holidays. LJ: That’s right. Who was a lesbian aunt who comes to the Thanksgiving dinner. And it was -- they had scripted it, but it was, sort of, ad libbed. And then they did a variety of other things in various years. The first of these Thanksgiving dinners -- I’ll give credit to this - there were two of them, two years, that were held on Bowdoin Street, at the Cowley fathers’ -- at the Episcopal church, which has now been sold and is no longer consecrated as a church, at Bowdoin Street. JS: It is now what? LJ: It’s now condominiums. JS: [01:13:00] Oh, I see. LJ: Yeah. They moved their congregation to St. Paul’s. And so anyway, the Cowley fathers welcomed us and gave us -- allowed us to rent their basement and have a Thanksgiving dinner. And that was really early on. (coughs) Pardon me. In the early ’70s. SB: Yeah. Wait a minute. END OF AUDIO FILE 47 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/f14f5fd8aacd4f1a2a58c998ec4173a2.MP3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=A6vZpVCDGEga1qmrpY0eE63kZPV4nF-RvQM2BGJfZ-XfrA7ftgjHfYLE2zs2VKe9gNxJpk%7EXx-HtyAtW926hxu3ZTuEf5fesJGYg0eO8zCE7KuvFiazGOHeJDFW%7ECb0H74UcBFrl10QdKilkobPDuxDHIN95yKmsqSFuT6280OsvNp4Zjb9k%7E20uXmleJbSCsPDHzFrQCliMmI0CVP4U0J0Pvq7PsiZwVDXvSMgXJKPdF2uluM5bWM3z5MXSnVBaMj6WXYGIhCs5orgevyjOlx94upRTEIe2x9T265kOAxtdbEkP8qNzY71rdobyqxgTvrjH1gMs11RGLluo7TKoCQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM bdd0653b68a389cc6b14d7bdd9af0d41 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/07e239ca7aa7b87d350d0f345022f4e4.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=M47jHm5we7k1R09fG3Bu1cDDxZC%7E6Xxu6ttrrLsx-zNzalWxHDy5LZRHYLuBPtOLCgyT5khA0a7NC89RKWrqJ3qbEKpZU503hXI0nLNOpLysQeO5ABbciMUxhyqQmgozZZOvs2%7Eftflxf4ODtYMDWidg7qPcJTTpUY-Qe5%7EZvPQ7dUkbDgs1OOdm9tLw50Teum%7Ewm-ascTnirCrpeOyzSpODaHcO2FZqdqC2H%7EQ%7E2aA7GOPTkzU%7EBya4nResSPI1lHLLSIY7u1xeHfNd%7E9cGHnALyf7ABu65NnNc-VHty7lC3r8UP7bi2pJUlusdYPGBsFL%7ELRPmxqMK0vUHYO3l%7EQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ab1eec3dd4f55ec97ee7d2d3f984f7bd PDF Text Text Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Lois Johnson Interviewers: Sarah Boyer, Judith Sullivan January 22, 2016 Interview Part 3 of 4 1 �LOIS JOHNSON: -- us to do that, and so we had some wonderful Thanksgiving dinners there. One of them, I remember -- I know this is turned off at the moment, but -SARAH BOYER: No, it isn’t. JUDITH SULLIVAN: It’s back on now. LJ: Hmm. SB: (laughs) You want it off? LJ: No, no, no. Not at all. SB: Okay. LJ: No. We -- we came, and I guess somebody had forgotten to open the door for us, which they usually did. They didn’t give us a key, but they opened the door for us. So I don’t know if it was Sheri -- it wasn’t I -- or somebody had to climb in a window and go around (laughter) and get -- and get it open in time so we could serve, because we had all these women coming. And there were about -- a committee of about six of us who were doing the initial work. So anyway, the Thanksgiving dinners were extremely important to people. JS: Yes. LJ: It was a wonderful time for everybody. And then the Christmas parties, we -- we had dancing [00:01:00] in our living room, which was a huge living room, probably -- well, huge to us -- 18 by 20, you know. Big enough so you could do the ’70s line dancing. And you’d have -- we’d play a lot of records, and have a lot of music. And in the earlier days, people would insist on bringing liquor. We didn’t -- you know, we weren’t against, you know, if you wanted to bring something, but we did not encourage it, because we didn’t want people to get drunk at our house. And so we made punch, and that -- you 2 �know, one of the things I always remember for myself is, we’d get up at 7:30 in the morning when we were having a party. Sheri would go downstairs and cook. I’d clean the whole house. Four stories. Eh, didn’t -- nothing to me. Change clothes, go upstairs, have something to eat, come downstairs, and then run up and downstairs about 20 times letting people in the door, until I said, “I’m a little tired,” and I’d say, “Joan, could you do that for me?” (laughter) And so -- and [00:02:00] we had music like crazy coming out the windows. We’d open the windows because there were so many women. We’d have a hundred people at a time at our house. We also, as a sideline here -- I don’t know if I should mention this -- we -- well, I’ll mention it another time. It’s contemporaneous with this, but whatever. Let’s see. What else did we do? We had dances. We hired the hall at Old Cambridge Baptist. We had sleigh rides. We had -- we had everything you could possibly imagine. I think the thing -- as I’ve probably said this before to many people, but I’ll say it on tape, because it’s very important to us -- now, starting, say, oh, maybe even 15 years ago, or whatever, we’d go to -- when we’d go to an event -- like we’ve gone a lot to the, you know, the LGBT stuff that [00:03:00] we’re going to now, like the women’s brunches, or OLOC, or whatever, or even gone to some dances ourselves in the past 15 years, and sure as you’re blonde, at most every one of these, a woman will come up and say, “You know, I know you don’t know me. My name is” -- whatever it is. And now, sometimes I’ll say, “Yes, I do remember you.” And she’ll just say, “You know, I just want to thank you for having DOB. I would never have made it unless this organization had existed.” Or, “I 3 �was suicidal at the time, and there were people -- I didn’t think there was another lesbian in the world, and my husband hated me and was divorcing me. I was losing my children. And I came, and there was someone there.” Now, that’s not to [00:04:00] aggrandize ourselves. We were very fortunate we had the health, we had sufficient employment and money, we had the time, and we could do it along with a -- say, a core group of maybe a dozen women who stayed with it all the time, and other people who drifted in and out doing various things. But that, to us, meant the most of anything. JS: Yes. LJ: Yeah, it’s -- because we were able to save people. Save people from all the things that lesbians have suffered from and are still suffering from, say, in Mississippi, Alabama. (laughs) God only knows where. JS: Many places, even around here. LJ: Many places. SB: Even around here. JS: The ones that are not coming to these dances and brunches. LJ: I know. I know. JS: There’s plenty of people out there. LJ: Who are isolated. And women -- there’s a tendency for -- you know, like a lot of the people that we met, we’ve -- we’ve stayed in touch with some, [00:05:00] but a lot of people, sort of, went off. Once, you know -- the thing was, there were two sobriquets about women, lesbian women, at that time. One is, they meet somebody knew, they 4 �disappear, you never see them again. They meet somebody knew, within a week, they have a U-Haul, (laughter) and they’re moving in. SB: First date -- LJ: First date. SB: First date, kiss, second date, the U-Haul, or whatever. Right? LJ: The second date, the U-Haul. (laughs) SB: The second date is the U-Haul, yeah. LJ: Second date, the U-Haul, yeah. SB: Yeah. JS: But it was like a beacon here, (laughs) you know? LJ: Yeah, it was. JS: I mean, anybody who wanted to, really was desperate to find you, did, probably. LJ: Yeah, yeah. And one, especially, I’ll put on this tape, because we love her so much, and she wouldn’t mind, and she -- her name being mentioned, because she’s the most out person I’ve known to man. The Reverend -- the Right Reverend [Elizabeth Cayton?], who came to us, she [00:06:00] and her partner, and they came because -- thank God for answering machines in those days, because it came in on an answering machine. It was either ours or the one at the office of DOB. Elizabeth and [Barbara?] had known one another for a long, long time. They lived in Fall River, I guess. And then they realized, as time went on, they -- that they were in love with one another. And so they wanted to -you know, they just wanted to have a life together. They were both married, of course, and they both had children. 5 �Elizabeth was -- is Portuguese American, and she had -- she was a very strong Catholic. She had been brought up as a Catholic in Fall River, and had a very devout grandmother, and so forth, and a devout mother and father, and came from a working class Portuguese family. And [00:07:00] when she came out, and when her mother realized, you know, what a lesbian was, or whatever, being a Catholic and particularly of those times -- this was in the ’70s -- she rejected her daughter. And she testified against her daughter at the trial where -- or not trial, or wherever -- the hearing where it was decided about who was going to get the children, the father or the mother. And she lost both her children at that time. They were -- I think one was five and one was seven. When she came to us, she was just a broken woman. She was a nurse at that time. But she and Barbara were together. I don’t know if they had visiting rights with the children or not, but it was very difficult. Anyway, subsequently, because she [00:08:00] and Barbara were very strong people, they lived with it. They worked against it. They worked hard. But they became members of DOB. They came to our house. They got in with the group. They hadn’t really known any gay women. They -- they were not really living in Boston at that time. They had to go to -- they had to go up to Maine in order to find a job in nursing, I guess, and they moved around hither and yon, but they spent a lot of time down here, too. And they became fast friends with us. We were fast friends with them. And eventually, she was able to get her children back. But in the meantime, she missed her youngsters so much that she had a child by artificial insemination. And she had a 6 �lovely young woman who is now married and has a baby. And their life came full circle again, and the children [00:09:00] were given back to them. The mother -- it took a long, long time for the mother to come around and love her child again, you know, because she considered her an enormous sinner, because that was the doctrine of the Catholic church. It still is, to a degree. And so -- but that -- that, to me, was one of the most important things. And she -- you know, we became her mothers, even though we were only maybe 10 years older, 15 years older (laughs) than she. And we still have this wonderful relationship where Elizabeth is a close, close friend, even though she’s in Delaware now. She’s retired as a priest. She ultimately -- she finally went to EDS, and she became a priest, and she had a parish for a number of years. And then she -- she did an enormous amount -- always been an out priest, you know. And she’s been a lesbian Episcopal priest woman. [00:10:00] And she did a lot down in Newark, New Jersey, with the gay movement down there, and with liberation for people, and in -- within the Episcopal church, also. And she’s now in -- in a hospice care. She’s doing hospice care in Delaware as a pastor. JS: She must have been one of those original 11 that were -- LJ: Not quite. Just a little bit after that, I think. Yeah. But anyway, Elizabeth is wonderful, and she’s always in touch, and when she comes up, I’d like you to meet her sometime -- JS: I’d love to meet her. LJ: -- if we can set it up for all of you. But -- but she was a perfect example of the -- really, the ultimate of deprivation that happened in those days, and that DOB at least was here 7 �and there, I think it helped to -- to save her, to urge her on, so that she could do all she’s done. And she’s accomplished marvelous things in her life. She has done -- she’s what [00:11:00] I call a wonderful preacher. Oh, my God, can that woman preach. And she preaches from stories in her life, and stories, you know, of other people’s lives. Yeah. She’s great. And she’ll make you -- raise you right [up out of?] your seat. (laughter) Yeah. Anyway, let’s see. Where was I? I was talking about Elizabeth, and I was talking about DOB. At the same -JS: I think we’re probably past the -- the Baptist church -- LJ: Yeah, we’re past [it now?]. JS: -- support, and now we’re at the Episcopal church support, and now we’re -- LJ: Well, the Episcopal church was the first, and then the Baptist church was the one that kept us. We -- we had our offices there for all the rest of our life as an organization, for the rest of the -- JS: And your house, and now, we -- we might be getting toward the end of the DOB. LJ: We -- I think we are, pretty much. In around -- where was it? What year was it? It was in -- we were active through the ’80s. As it [00:12:00] got to the late ’80s, we realized that things were beginning to change. There were other organizations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, a core group of us felt that DOB had fulfilled its purpose and should be retired before it became, sort of, an organization that wasn’t functioning. So we had long discussions and long -- all kinds of research we did on it, and ultimately what happened is that we did vote at a business meeting to close the organization. And we -there were some people, however, who did not wish to do that, so they kept it as a rump 8 �organization going. I don’t -- I don’t think it’s still going. A woman named [Stephanie?] kept it going for about -- at least five years, maybe more. JS: Did she keep the same name? LJ: She did. Yeah. Though that was not particularly anything we wanted her to do, but she did. But the organization, formally, as a 501(c)(3), [00:13:00] which it was for all those years, was retired. And it had been in business for about -- at least 25 or 30 years, approximately. JS: And that was in what year? LJ: I’d say that was about the early ’90s or the late ’80s. I can’t set a figure on it. Yeah. JS: Okay. So there must have been somebody who was president after you? Or did you close it? LJ: No, I -- I closed it. I closed it, yeah. And so it was -- it was a long, long history. Other things -- JS: It was a wonderful run that you had. LJ: Oh, we had a wonderful run. And we were able to do an enormous amount. I mean, when we go into the history of DOB, there were a lot more activities, you know, that then happened. JS: Sure. LJ: It, kind of -- JS: Yeah, we have to remember this is your life. LJ: (laughs) Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s right, yeah. Contemporaneously with this, as we all remember, Elaine Noble was running for state rep. And that was 1975, I think it was. [00:14:00] So we were deeply into DOB, but at the same time, we were trying to raise 9 �money for her, and we worked for her. And at our house, we had two women’s orchestras. One was called the Deadly Nightshade, and another one -- she will remember, I think. But we had them. This -- I always love it -SB: Bands, were they? LJ: They were -- pardon? SB: What was the Deadly Nightshade? JS: It was a band. LJ: It was a women’s -- there was a women’s -- SB: Liberty Standing? They were a women’s band. LJ: I know they were, too, but that wasn’t the one. SB: No? LJ: Sheri will remember. But they were -- they brought all their instruments to our house, and they played in our living room, and everybody danced all over the place. And we had an open bar (laughs) in the -- in the kitchen, which, if we -- if anyone had known it, then we’d probably get in -- you know, into great trouble. But it was mainly beer. But (laughs) they wanted to sell drinks, so they sold drinks. So we said, “Go ahead. Go right ahead. (laughter) Do what you have to do to raise money.” So we raised quite a bit of money for her, [00:15:00] probably five thousand bucks between a couple of fundraisers we did. And we were active in her campaign. JS: For the band? LJ: Not with that one event, but -- JS: Who were you raising money for? LJ: Elaine Noble’s candidacy. 10 �JS: Oh, her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. LJ: Yeah, for Elaine, yeah. JS: Sorry, mm-hmm. LJ: Yeah. So we worked on that very, very hard. Other things that happened, you know, in our involvement in the gay movement after that is, we were -- we were tired when that happened. We didn’t -- in one sense, we didn’t really want to retire the organization. In another, we knew that it was time, and we knew that it was probably time for us to go into something else, too. But we were really, both of us, burned out, I think, and we were also somewhat bereft when it ended, because we missed it terribly. We -- we were friends with a lot of people, and, you know, we weren’t feeling isolated or anything, [00:16:00] because we knew so many people, and we were at different stages -- a different stage in our life, that we would have been about -- when did that happen, ’89? Oh, getting into our sixties, I guess. But -- so I toyed with the idea of starting an organization -- giving myself a year and starting an organization for older gay women, and then I said, “I’m too busy. I can’t do it. I can’t do it,” because by then, I had transferred to real estate, in 1979. JS: Okay. LJ: And I had a whole real estate career -- SB: When did you do that? Nineteen seventy-nine? LJ: -- nineteen seventy-nine -- of forty years of learning the real estate business. And all the time I was doing these other things, too, I was working part time in real estate. (laughter) I can’t imagine how I had so much time. I rented apartments and sold you -- sold a few buildings in the South End all during the ’70s, also. (laughs) [00:17:00] I don’t know 11 �how I did it. I’m grateful I could. But anyway, I’ll go into my career there in a minute. But we worked for Elaine, and that took about -- you know, I guess we worked about a year off and on for her, and she did a lot of stuff at our house doing fundraising. So that was a contemporaneous thing [with which?] we got busy. After that, for gay activity, something came along called BLGPA, Boston Lesbian and Gay Political Alliance. And Boston Political -- and Gay Political Alliance was a bit more sophisticated, and was a political organization as compared to a social organization. And we -- we worked in that, helping them with informational things, where people would go out and -- [00:18:00] and do zaps, or speaking engagements. We had done speaking engagements back at DOB, anyway, but this was more sophisticated. And we worked in that for two or three years with Eric Rofes, who unfortunately has passed away, and several other people, several men who have -- he didn’t pass away from AIDS, but he -he passed away from natural causes of some kind. So we were very active in that, and off and on in whatever other organizations. And then when LGBT Aging Project came around about 15 years ago, we jumped on the bandwagon with both feet, because we wanted to do something for older women. So we’ve gotten heavily involved in that. And before we -- even there was an LGBT Aging Project [00:19:00] brunch, there were many, many speaking engagements, so Sheri and I have done a tremendous -- particularly Sheri -- have done a tremendous number of 12 �speaking engagements over the years. Then we jumped foot first into the -- the marriage thing. We were solicited by -- I forget who it was, what organization. But we first started out with -- let me see who she was. Maybe it was -- maybe it was the LGBT Aging Project, because there was one woman who is not active now who solicited us. And so I did quite a bit of speaking in connection with marriage. JS: And you were in your sixties, now, or beyond? LJ: No, this -- in my -- in my age? JS: Yeah. LJ: That was 15 years ago. I’m 84, so I would have been 70. SB: Late sixties. LJ: Late sixties. JS: You would have been in your late sixties. LJ: [00:20:00] Late sixties, yeah. Late sixties, early seventies. And both of us did that. We did films. We were in some films for that. We -- we just did whatever we could, because we felt -- you know, we had a personal stake in it, and we also had a stake for all women who should and -- could and should have been able to marry because of their engagement with all kinds of things that -- in their lives. So we worked on that. And we’ve been at a lot of social protests, (laughs) you know. And we’ve -- oh, gay pride marches. We -- I’m skipping back now to around 1970. We weren’t involved in the first gay pride march. Some people from DOB were, but we weren’t, for the obvious 13 �reason. We weren’t in (laughs) DOB at that point. But around the -- I guess it was the second year, or [00:21:00] maybe the third year. They were having a hell of a time, (laughs) because it was mainly men, and there were some women, but they weren’t having -- they were having -- they -JS: You mean the organizers of the gay pride parade? LJ: The organ-- the organizers were having a hard time with, you know, this one was that [way?], and they’re fighting, and blah. You know, all that infighting. So they knew I had a pretty good reputation as a parliamentarian, so they called me in, and they said, “Please conduct the meeting for us.” So I was lucky. I could do it. I said, “You each have 10 minutes. There will be no infighting. You’ll have to sit down if you do. Tell us what your ideas are. Get up here, get it organized, et cetera.” And so I did that, and so they asked me to get into the organization of organizing it, which I did do. Sheri and I did it for a couple of years. And that was, of course, on a much smaller basis than it is now, but -- JS: The pride parade? LJ: The pride parade, yeah. JS: Wow. LJ: So we organized it for a couple of years. JS: Amazing. LJ: Along with some other people. [00:22:00] You know, we’ve had our paws in there. Not necessarily wanting to be Mrs. Bigwig, but wanting to -- if you don’t do it, who is -- who else is going to do it? So you’d better go do it. So that’s what we did there. So I skip back again now to career, my own career. 14 �JS: Okay. LJ: When I finished with WGBH, which happened in -- oh, around ’78. The money ran out on one project. We tried on some other projects, but there was really not enough money around, and ultimately, they decided to downsize, and I was one of the people who got downsized. So all that time, while I was working at GBH, we were both of us supporting a house, a huge house, which needed a lot of work. And so I realized I had to do something with that, so I -- I got a part time job as a -- a broker. [00:23:00] I took my broker’s license in 1969 as a real estate broker in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. And I loved it so much. I said, “I love this.” (laughs) So I did it on the weekends. I not only worked five days in -- you know, for GBH, but I worked Saturday and Sunday on real estate for a guy named [Al Rondo?]. He was one of the first companies down there, a wonderful man, Albert Rondo, who has now passed away. And Al gave me a chance. He said, “Oh, you’re a new licensee. Okay, Lois, I know you. I’ll take you on. And you don’t have to sell houses right now because you don’t know enough, but you can rent apartments, and then you can bring me some leads, and I’ll take care of it from there, and I’ll compensate you.” So it was a very good job for me, and I did it. And then when the [break?] came after there was no job left at GBH for me, I said, “What am I going to do now? Hmm.” I said, “I think I [00:24:00] really, really, really want to do real estate.” So I had another contact, which I’d gotten because we’d been politically active in the South End, with a guy named [Moe?] Frye, who was running, if 15 �you can believe it, on a Republican ticket, but he was a reasonable Republican. That was back in the -- oh, the late ’60s, early ’70s. JS: Moe Cry? LJ: Pardon, please? JS: What was his name? LJ: Maurice Frye. JS: Oh, Frye. LJ: Maurice Eastman Frye, yeah. And he was an old style Republican like John Sears and all those people in Boston. And so he had -- he owned a real estate agency on Beacon Hill called Street and Company, with his partner, Mr. Street. So I s-- I went over. I said, “Well, I don’t want to work in the South End. It’s too incestuous to live and work in your same community, so I don’t want to do that.” So I went over, and I talked to Moe, and I said, “Moe, you know, I really” -- I knew him as Moe, because I’d worked for him in his campaign. [00:25:00] Everybody else called him Mr. Frye. I never called him Mr. Frye. (JS laughs) I called him Moe. So Moe and I (laughs) [come on?]. And I said to him, “Well, Moe, I really need a job. I have this much training in real estate. I’m willing to learn more. And I’m willing to work seven days a week. Are you willing to take me on?” And he said, “Sure.” So he took me on, and my first year, I earned $1,600. (laughs) That was about all. And we managed through. And then I began to learn more, and she was learning a little more. And ultimately, I was a broker there. I learned from some magnificent people who were there, [Leah Buck?] and [Ken McCray?], both of whom have passed away. And they 16 �taught me everything I knew about Beacon Hill. We were specialists in Beacon Hill, Back Bay, [00:26:00] South End, Bay Village, all in town. And they -- and Street and Company had this impeccable reputation of absolute rectitude. You know, you didn’t have to think that you were dealing with any floozies, or nutcakes, or idiots if you were dealing with them. And they were honest as the day is long, and that’s why I could stay so long. JS: Wow. LJ: Because the business of real estate can be very difficult. JS: Sure. LJ: And ultimately, it was a very fulfilling business for me, and I loved it. And I still love it. I still -- I still have a license. I’ll keep it another couple years, and I’ll do whatever comes along, you know, if there’s something. JS: What is your title there? Or your title? LJ: I was a -- I was an affiliated -- so independent contractor broker. Actually, sales associate, technically speaking, but I have a broker’s license. But the broker of record is Street and Company. [00:27:00] And they still have wonderful guys running them. Jim Fay and Brooks Porter bought them out about 20, 25 years ago. JS: Any other women? LJ: Let’s see. There was a woman named Leah Buck who worked there, also. And she was one of my teachers. She was wonderful. JS: Other than that, you were with all men. LJ: Other than that, I was with all men. But Ken was a gay man. And there had been women before, but they weren’t gay. I was the only gay woman there. And of course, it was a 17 �little funny, because we would march down Charles Street in those days in the gay pride parades. But that was before I was affiliated with them. And so I just -- I laugh to myself, because I just -- I’d march down Charles Street anyway, even though I was working there. And so [Joe Govern?], who is our dear friend, who just loved us, [00:28:00] and loves us, would be out there cheering us on, on the street, while Sheri was using her bullhorn at the beginning of the parade by this time (JS laughs) in the ’70s (inaudible). SB: Just so you’re -- LJ: Yeah. “Two, four, six, eight,” et cetera, you know? (laughter) And then we were -- we were carrying the DOB flag, also, at the front of the -- the organization. JS: So you’re -- you’re marching in it. LJ: Oh, of course. Oh, yeah. We marched in every parade. JS: And not being out in your business, really. LJ: Well, you know, to a certain degree. You know, at that point, we -- I didn’t use the word, but they had been so -- I mean, it was a very welcoming business, you know. And finally, when I came out around -- everybody knew. Everybody knew. JS: Sure. It’s, kind of, one of those -- LJ: Yeah. And there was no -- there was no discrimination. JS: -- hazy, kind of -- LJ: Yeah, yeah. JS: -- arrangements. LJ: There was no discrimination against me at all there. I was very free to do what I wanted [00:29:00] to, and I did. Yeah. So that -- that was my career history. 18 �JS: When -- along this time, when was it that you gave yourself a label? You said for a long time, you couldn’t tolerate thinking of yourself as a lesbian. But at some point you did. LJ: Oh, when I -- when I accepted that? JS: Or was it gradual, and you don’t know? LJ: It was gradual. It was a very gradual thing. More and more liberating your thought so that you -- and also, with the -- the coming of all the things that were happening on the -on the social scene and on the political scene across the country, and realizing that this is -- being a lesbian or being a gay woman is as natural as being a heterosexual person. And just confronting people and having speaking engagements, and just enriching your mind, and also [00:30:00] letting go of your own stereotypes of yourself, which come from your own religion. Now, I have not been active as a Christian Scientist, though I am [now?] -- that is the [leading?] that I have. You know, when I’m given a choice to make in terms of any ethical issue or -- or any spiritual issue, I turn to God. And as we all do, we turn to our God. But I will not accept the fact that there appears to be no official acceptance of a gay lifestyle in the Christian Science church. About 10 years ago, a young man -- 10 or 15 years ago, a young man came to me, who is a Christian Scientist. And he said, “I’m familiar with you, and I know that you’re a Christian Scientist. And [00:31:00] I’m leading a -- a group -- or I want to lead or found a group to incorporate more Christian Scientists who are gay in coming out. Would you join us?” And I said, “Young man, I wish you every luck in the world in doing that.” I said, “I 19 �have spent a lot of anguished nights and days in my youth dealing with being gay and being a Christian Scientist. And I am not about to revisit those days. I do not go to church for that reason, and I will not go to church for that reason, until somebody says that they’re not going to excommunicate a practitioner for coming out and marrying her spouse. I am not angry with the church. I’m not opposing. I accept the teachings of love [00:32:00] and all of the other wonderful things that are there. But you’re not going to get me to put myself through anything more. I have other things to do in my life. Thank you. Goodbye.” And that’s the way I feel. Yeah. (laughs) But, you know, as far as acceptance is concerned, I -- you know, it took a long time. I even remember [myself?] going on retreats, thinking that maybe I need to think this over, et cetera. I went on a retreat. It was a Christian Science retreat. I stayed there for one afternoon. And the people were nice, but I was supposedly meditating, and I said, “To hell with this. I ain’t doing this. I want to go back and see my baby. [I want to go out?].” JS: (laughs) And you’re around -- in your thirties, forties? LJ: No, I was with Di-- I was with Sheri. And I was prob-- JS: Your thirties, forties, maybe. LJ: I was probably in my forties. JS: Forties. LJ: Early forties or something. But, yeah. JS: How -- [00:33:00] how interesting that is, that you re-- you actually went on this retreat -- LJ: Yeah. 20 �JS: -- to consider if you should change your ways. LJ: To consider. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. JS: Oh. Wow. LJ: Yeah, yeah. You know, see how -- see how insidious religi-- JS: Check in. LJ: -- well, you know how deeply religion can pour into the psyche. JS: I know all about it, yeah. LJ: Yeah. You know all about that. And I bet you know all about that, too. (laughs) SB: Brought up Catholic. LJ: Oh, yeah, were you brought up Catholic? SB: That says it all. LJ: Yeah. Guilt, guilt, guilt. [Hello, hello, hello?]. (JS laughs) No. No, it’s not necessary. And I feel -- JS: Well, it may not have been out of guilt you did it. LJ: No, and I don’t think it was. JS: It was about -- LJ: It was about -- JS: -- wanting to revisit yourself. LJ: Yeah, yeah. It was. It was. So let me see. Are there any other things? SB: Do you have anything from those questions, the four questions? LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JS: Well, I think we’re moving to -- oh. I think we’re moving toward the -- like, you’ve talked about [00:34:00] your business, now. 21 �LJ: Yep, yeah. JS: And there was a point where you left it. LJ: Yes. JS: Or, I mean, you’re still in it, but -- LJ: I’m still in it, but formerly, I had to leave it because of my accident, because I still am not -- well, even for a year or so before that, because of sleep apnea, I didn’t have the energy to climb the stairs anymore. But I was showing stuff. Joe and I were doing a partnership. And I’m still partnering with him if I have anything. JS: Oh, that’s great. Well, I think from what you’ve said already, it sounds like, although you’ve left the other organizations and your leadership in them -- LJ: Yeah. Yeah. JS: -- you still consider yourself a leader by going to them, representing the elder lesbians -- LJ: Yes, yes. JS: -- especially now, at this point -- LJ: Yeah. JS: -- through the film. But you didn’t talk about the film yet. LJ: Oh, my God, I forgot the film. (laughs) Oh. You want to talk about the film? SB: You’re on top of things. Honest to God, I totally forgot about the film, too. LJ: (laughter) I forgot about the film, too. JS: Well, I’m thinking about [00:35:00] the leadership -- LJ: The leadership [for those?], yeah. JS: -- and how it -- because you’re still a leader. LJ: Yeah. 22 �JS: So, I mean, how is that manifested now? LJ: Well -- well, basically, going back to the beginnings of our association with LGBT Aging Project, it began with the marriage thing. And so we got very involved with that. Then it went on to loads and loads of speaking engagements, which we had done before that. I mean, it went before that. And we -- we have been fortunate to have been called upon a lot, because of the experiences in the past, so that is where some of the leadership comes from. And then -- pardon me. When the brunches come along, or the dinners, and so forth, we became active in those, because we really felt, as older people, as we were beginning to be older people, we didn’t want to isolate ourselves. And we were happy to -- one of the -- [00:36:00] the things that happens to me is, just because of my nature, I become a leader wherever I go. It’s -- it’s the fate of the Leos in our life. You know? You say something, and someone says, “Oh, she’d make a good officer.” JS: (laughter) You know what my supervisor says? “It’s the way we’re wired.” She was not talking about leadership. She’s talking about the way we are, the way we think. LJ: It’s the way we are. It’s the way we are. JS: The -- what we respond to. LJ: Yeah, it’s what we respond to. We do. So basically, now, what happened with Gen Silent is that, I guess, Stu came to [town?]. He had this idea, and he went to them to look for people to put into his film. So Lisa -- JS: We, meaning the Aging Project went to Stu? Stu came to town, [00:37:00] and he went to -- 23 �LJ: No, Stu -- Stu went to the Aging Project. And the Aging Project [are?] -- we’d been very active in -- at the very beginning with [Lisa?] and with Bob. So they thought of us. And -- JS: And with the people before Lisa, too? The woman who was -- LJ: Let’s see. Let me see. I think I’ve lost your train of thought. JS: Well, it’s okay, because it may be that Stu came when Lisa was there. So you pick right up there. LJ: Yeah. Okay, fine. Stu came after Lisa and Bob were well established. And I believe -- I don’t know -- the brunches were on, I think, still -- had begun at that time. But they were looking for a lesbian couple. They had found an excellent couple in Alexander -Alexander and his partner, [00:38:00] who were in Gen Silent as primary people. And they had found a transgender woman. But they were looking for a lesbian couple. So they found they us, or they were -- we were recommended for them. And so Stu came to us and decided to use us, and that’s how that happened. And so the film was a wonderful experience, because based on the premise, which people may or may not know who listen to this or read this, that concerns isolation of people who are gay, those who have been out, who are afraid to be out when they go to an institution if they happen to need it for medical reasons when they are older. Sheri and I had never thought particularly about that. We realized that you had to protect yourself. If anybody had ever been [00:39:00] nursing homes, it’s been her and me, because we cared for her mother, found her a nursing home; cared for my sister; cared for my aunt; found them nursing homes and places to go, have visited countless nursing homes in the 24 �process, and have been in many, many nursing homes ad nauseum. (laughs) I (inaudible) to delete that. But -- so we didn’t feel that we would hide, but we also knew that it could be very, very difficult for people, so we were quite willing to do this project. So he came to the house. He filmed us, and he did a lot of voiceovers with us. And it was put -- incorporated. He did a wonderful job of putting it into -- I think it’s an outstanding, useful film, which is being used now mainly as a -- a teaching film [00:40:00] for professionals, but has been shown, I guess, all over the world. And -JS: That’s what I’ve heard, yeah. LJ: It gives some history and context to it, because we knew enough of the history, so we could give context and also -- what’s his name -- pardon me. (coughs) My voice is giving out. Could I stop for just one sec? JS: Do you want to, kind of, reach the end after you’ve had a drink? END OF AUDIO FILE 25 � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/134aac5bfe0b1063ab59a9b972e5cc5b.MP3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=VUcSQ8RgrUI02LFXlpvbuUgs8ysQs-J2mGQ-ZYaSyfo888OLgHHjpZdgB0wsANVpLMOo-Y2%7E769TAWIay6PQe08cx7sLIQ-HBGOwe97ifrGuFeMupPp57QUF4-NxY%7EqMupPb%7EJ8z6qOD0QhP328ccn2e%7E4WMZ4hzGJ1RFqW3j-o4GsrmZ7iDRxzyCw5cd8qq75OdBHUVDPmRq-SCasBS78oP6tz6SE2ZNSSSd%7Ejfta80HdOiIxeoLu2x6UFKrrd4vt9AOmApptCKdGzCQ2IMqHgiMJA8gzuiyEaGg1x70%7EBQdziPYeTF0kQ8sss-giZSWvGAsY63S24ybW3W0pOWLQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 395a1f5e00264d6cca98cd6962dd2b26 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/9a97455b2a62b1727eda617b36db6f21.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=Yw8CkMnj%7Emo9V0Pz-fQu5yjoAetUun-7mUpRCTJ7nAfI9LO-3yVuzaZfPnPq5PtPqaQZL3yV2IKQlLM1MH1%7E3AMcsFY6DVgd5IN%7EU2IgDRF8I-gNKguvRPL25%7ETbzIm2OtwzjY6yugWBdT0BWHvUb7L%7EU0c7hEMjMY1j4opTMO2bIes8ubeIX2AQyTAvyt47mVyaY-ecUJZ0Pii4D%7ECs866G3v%7Em106loWuquQhy5h2JPXBqyT1iSjkaSC78RDoxdy6l5Q2wqSmynPYfPfPlLk64cV5It4vIzu6TB9BJwo4BhtJtaEgKZ4Lavw9GJVYF6Vz-VOSY3pKoV7h%7EYDCUMQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 95f91dc3e56f9c9b0a96d148642ec7c8 PDF Text Text Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Lois Johnson Interviewers: Sarah Boyer, Judith Sullivan January 22, 2016 Interview Part 4 of 4 1 �JUDITH SULLIVAN: LOIS JOHNSON: JS: Ending, yeah. Okay, fine. Are we ready to go? Then we can start up again and we don’t have to -- SARAH BOYER: LJ: So make it so it’s, kind of -- Yeah, I started it up. Okay. Basically, Gen Silent, I think, was one of the crowning achievements of the LGBT Aging Project, and for us, too. And we really are very appreciative of the fact that we could participate, and that we look forward to being able to do other things. Meanwhile, we intend to remain busy in the LGBT Aging Project. We also have shown our film here at the place where we are now resident, which is Springhouse in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts, which is -- JS: And you moved here when and why? LJ: Pardon, please? JS: You moved here when? LJ: We moved here in April of last year, and we are very happy here. It’s a very welcoming community, and the people who brought us in, brought us in specifically to show you the changes [01:00] in life, because we were a gay couple, and want to encourage other gay individuals and couples to come here, and to feel welcome and none -- it’s a nonprejudicial community. All that’s required here is for you to love your neighbor and to -- you know, to live peaceably with people, and that’s what we do, and we are -- are beloved by people, and we love them here. And I give them all my best. (laughs) So we look forward to being able to participate in lots of other things. At 84 and 81, our energy is not as much as it should -- we would like it to be, but we’re using whatever scraps we can get to forward the movement and also to keep ourselves going. 2 �JS: I think that’s a marvelous place for us to stop. LJ: I think it is, too. JS: You are terrific. SB: Can I just -- can I just -- I think it’s a fantastic interview. [02:00] I just have a couple of questions. LJ: Okay, fine. Yep. SB: Yeah. JS: With this one? SB: Oh, I’ll save on this one for the ending, but maybe we don’t need to put it on here. We’ll just stop the -- END OF AUDIO FILE 3 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Sullivan, Judith Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Johnson, Lois Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lois Johnson, 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016; 2016-01-22 Description An account of the resource Interview with Lois Johnson for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Judith Sullivan and Sarah Boyer. Part 1 was likely recorded sometime in 2016. Parts 2, 3, and 4 were recorded in one interview session on January 22, 2016. Subject The topic of the resource Johnson, Lois; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/228783603c87d23e49d5d4ab0573b82d.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=BJzclkB5AdgGD0F1CTkpdl6G%7EyRE4ZdfOdZNIsM%7EjdYJI0tIgKuUSfdeY5znFQSk8WZn77N4FyDuXjcjkdTDt9iQDPYdbFS4EI%7EXIrnKhZ4Bh6DOoVmx8Qkt%7EyoJytTPUfAUWuKP8OGBhPA3oMxuVhYfmNC%7EZ4sykAYddyAOgVCADoqoy8Do9B%7E3Uz1NpE0i%7ECsrg2uPiGnGMX1iMkB80Rrc%7EQnWJprn85vo-elc5P4vKau2Ou13BD%7EHFcpTT-dQnzM%7EA7QiuuqYT7OwWSYyVuM0NFRrg5q%7E9DRXn9MN0-4N%7EU-I8f9ZDx1210WwmL-aCO6KAAT2wuf1kpv7%7Ea7yow__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 2235ef48e395109f6c8f229845ce7266 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/0ac878b07a4c8a3fdcdae5db67108d8c.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=CcAvlJYB9Sa-vWxTWzeI0mwoXfOpolaxdU1BS8hxbZTvLH%7E-yg6g7ql3-TFd8fOK0gy4KK3-mW3N4SViaHIZBzKOoM4aUaLYM73rraOaIsrdaKPnIV05dZl158sKARRQt0POh4jZ8Zb6CmL9KKXobrGagy9XshAdsV8teX-BGm8w5N%7EqEdhOFS-e3fiFW8D38-10%7EuCEqQ1%7Exc92wOSUTV6qQaIkJdguk1hP3bG7uPxWk0kfrRy8vTMRmF-bf8JuUrLOUKvRKnp0yX9qHE5wzx60DKcJWjCwj6EmFxRICOeFAuasQC%7EsPt7Ouw%7E0tViDxYU6HvfZsBMSbyKfriRSJg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 915c501ee1674e44a3770a0bac90224e PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Sarah Boyer Interviewer: Lois Johnson July 24, 2019 1 �LOIS JOHNSON: My name is Lois Johnson. We are at Spring House, which is in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts. The date is July 24th, 2019 and we are having this interview for purposes of a history of Boston Daughters of Bilitis, which we are writing. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Actually, we’re doing it for the history archive. And we’re doing it also for the history archives in the city of Boston. Could you please give me your name? SB: My name is Sarah Boyer, and I was born in 1947, so I’m 72. [00:01:00] LJ: Good. And where are you living currently? SB: I’m living in Cambridge, on Antrim Street. It’s at Inman Square. I have my own apartment. LJ: So, you’ve been kind enough to be a person who’s going to give us some history, your own personal history, which is a very important thing that we are recording for posterity. So, could you give me to start with, an idea of what your young life was like, where you were born, where you lived, what your family was like, and get us started? SB: Lois, I’d just like to say this is an honor. I mean, [00:02:00] it makes me want to cry to be honest with you, because no one’s ever said, “Hey Sarah, would you like to talk about your life?” And to have you do it means all the more to me because of the work that we’ve done together. It’s been very important for me, and for you when you continue to do this work under sometimes difficult circumstances. When you first asked me to do this project with you, it was under difficult circumstances for me. And it was probably at least two years ago. It was probably more than that. LJ: I think it was. 2 �SB: Yes. And we’re here today doing this, and we’ve interviewed people and I am so thrilled to be doing this with you. [00:03:00] I just have to say that. LJ: I’m so grateful that you’re doing it because you’re an expert. You’ve done this for the city of Cambridge for 17 years, and everybody looks to you as the professional, which you are. So I’m thrilled to be doing it with you. SB: I don’t know how -- I’m not used to this. I was born in Canaan, Connecticut. And we actually didn’t stay there. We moved to Garfield, New Jersey. My father was a traveling salesman. LJ: Really? SB: Yeah. I mean, he worked for Kraft Food back then. And the reason I know that is because he told me later on, that every morning when he would get his car, there would be a car behind him from Kraft Food making sure that he was going on his rounds. [00:04:00] That’s tough. LJ: That is tough. SB: But my father had no problem because he was a workaholic, and he would go around to different stores. And he would sell the product, and then he’d distribute it to them. LJ: What was the products of Kraft in those days? The same? SB: The same kind of thing. Although, I don’t know if they make Kraft caramels now. LJ: I don’t think so. SB: But that was the big thing for us, was when he brought home a bag of Kraft caramels. But my mother did not use the Kraft macaroni and cheese. She did not. She was a cook. She was a real cook, so she didn’t do that. And Garfield was inner-city, really, [00:05:00] but we lived on a very short street, and the boy next door was my best friend, 3 �Billy Martin. And the only thing I can -- I can remember a few things from there but one of the things I remember is that my father and Billy’s father started digging up the backyard, and they found a bedstead when they dug up the backyard. And then they found out that their houses were all built on a dump. (laughter) It was really weird. But anyway -LJ: Where is Garfield and Canaan? SB: Geez, I wish I could tell you. I think it’s near Patterson. LJ: Which is pretty near the coast? SB: No, we were not -- I don’t remember being near the coast. LJ: And where is Canaan? SB: Okay, Canaan, [00:06:00] Connecticut is in northwest Connecticut. It’s about 15 miles from Great Barrington, and 10 miles from Millerton, New York. So it’s up in the corner of the state. I have these pictures of my grandparents sitting on the stoop with us in Garfield. LJ: We’d like to have some of those, take pictures of the pictures. SB: Oh yeah, I’ll dig them up. It was a tiny house. My father was really just starting out and my mother was a stay-at-home mom, so -- I mean he came from a very well-off family, but I don’t know he just -- I’m not quite sure of the details but he didn’t have the money when he got married and had kids. I don’t know what happened. Anyway. LJ: How many kids in your [00:07:00] family? SB: I was just going to say three. Four, you know about my brother, who died early. He died in May. So there were three girls and practically one right after another. And my mother was Catholic, so you didn’t use birth control. So my sister was born in 1945, I was born 4 �in 1947. We were almost Irish twins. And then my younger sister was born two years after I was. And then 10 years later my brother came along. LJ: My goodness. SB: So yeah. So for a long, long time it was the three sisters. And my sister was born in Garfield. Well, she was born in Patterson at the hospital, and I just remember her being in the playpen out in the front yard. And so, [00:08:00] we weren’t there that long. And after that we moved to Bloomingburg, New York. Now Garfield was like city really, but Bloomingburg was -- LJ: Country? SB: Country. When I say country, I’m talking 300 people in the whole town. And (laughs) I got into the first grade there because there was no kindergarten in Bloomingburg and my mother wanted me out. I was disturbing her, somehow. So I got into first grade when I was five years old. And from the get-go, I was a troublemaker. I really was. I had trouble in school that way. Let’s see. [00:09:00] What I remember was the girl in front of me wore pigtails, and she turned around and looked at me and stuck her tongue out at me. So back then there were inkwells in the desks, remember? LJ: Oh yes, I remember those. SB: I took her pigtail, and I stuck it in the inkwell. And I got caught. She didn’t get caught for sticking her tongue out at me. So back then, I had to go sit in the corner on a stool with a dunce cap on. I mean, we’re talking 1952 or something like that. So they were still doing things like that. But everybody loved Mrs. Martin because she was a sweetheart. But apparently, I wasn’t -- you know, I was doing my naughty stuff. LJ: Why do you think you were doing that? 5 �SB: I don’t really know. I don’t know. [00:10:00] LJ: Did you feel as though the family wasn’t recognizing you enough? SB: No, I do remember my father -- at that point I think he was starting -- no, he wasn’t. He did like taking pictures, and he took pictures of my older sister and I, when my older sister had her first Communion. And you know we were so close in age, I said to the nun, “How come I can’t have my first Communion?” And the nun said, “You’re not old enough.” She said, “Well, you can be the angel.” So I wore this white dress, very pretty and everything, so I didn’t feel so bad. But my father’s taking these pictures, and he’s yelling at us, and he’s yelling, and my older sister [00:11:00] -- I don’t know, for some reason it didn’t seem to bother her, but I was crying. So there’s looks on my face like I’m crying. And he was angry a lot. He was an angry man for a lot of his life. I mean, off and on. LJ: Did you ever find out why he was angry? SB: Well, yeah. I mean, he had a drinking problem. He was an alcoholic, and he did bear quite a burden with my mother and bringing up us kids, which I can get into later. LJ: You can do that later, yes. SB: But anyway, so I really got to him because he -- it’s almost like he couldn’t control me. [00:12:00] He was trying to control me all the time, and I was fighting back all the time. And the other two never fought back. They just went along with him, so they never got the negative attention that I got. So anyway, we only were in Bloomingburg for maybe a year, and then we moved to Falls Village, Connecticut, which is right next to Canaan. And it’s in the northwest corner of Connecticut, and it’s very rural and really beautiful in 6 �its own right. It’s part of the Berkshires which are beautiful. And it was a beautiful place to grow up. It really was. LJ: Could you go out and play? SB: Yeah, we could just go out and play and -- can I help you with something there? LJ: I needed to get my sunglasses. SB: Oh, let me get -- oh, I’m sorry. LJ: No, no, that’s okay. SB: Are they -- they’re not in there. LJ: They’re in the back. Did you -- [00:13:00] can you find them? SB: Oh, yeah. LJ: Good. I’ll put them on. I’m sorry to have to wear them. SB: No, no, that’s important. LJ: There. A werewolf. SB: No, no, I love those glasses. They’re perfect. LJ: You like them? Good. SB: So, Falls Village was a beautiful place to grow up. I mean, I was there from the second grade to the eighth -- through the eighth grade, and it was very rural. We had a little downtown, but they were 10 kids in my eighth grade class when I graduated. LJ: Only 10? SB: Ten. And I have the picture of us together. And I had -- my best friend lived across the street, and [00:14:00] we used to put on carnivals and stuff for our parents, all our parents and the kids and the siblings and everything. Bonnie, her name was Bonnie Blass. And 7 �my grandmother lived next door, and her house faced our house, so we’d just go through a field and we were at my grandmother’s house. It was beautiful there. LJ: So that’s why you went there because Grandmother lived there? SB: Yes, exactly. Actually, I think my grandfather gave my father the land where they built the house, and my father could get a mortgage for a $19,000 house back in 1953. And it had two bedrooms upstairs, one bedroom downstairs. I didn’t get along with my father. I was scared to death of him, [00:15:00] to be honest with you. But I got along with my grandfather. I just loved him so much. H was -- he loved me so much. He loved me unconditionally. So he would take me -- he’d be driving this ’49 Ford -- it looked like a beached whale -- He liked to play golf, and he’d take me to the course, and then he’d go into the bar, and he’d get behind the bar and get me a Shirley Temple. And he tried to teach me how to play golf, but it was a waste of time. LJ: You weren’t interested. SB: I wasn’t interested in that. LJ: You were only interested in being with Grandfather. SB: Yes. That’s all I cared about. LJ: What did you call him, Grampy? SB: What did I call him? Gramps or Grampa, Grampa, yes. And he would give me -- he smoked cigars. His breath was terrible, [00:16:00] but he gave me the ring from his cigar, the ring that’s on a cigar, and I’d put it on my finger, and I’d be just twisting it around. And I pretended that it was a wedding ring. Anyway, I just have to tell you this one thing about my grandfather. This says it all. He had an incredible sense of humor and we’re all having Sunday dinner together and -- I don’t know, you remember those big 8 �Sunday dinners that went on forever? I was so mad. It was two o’clock in the afternoon; I wanted to watch George Burns and Gracie Allen, right? Well anyway so we’re all together at my grandmother’s house in the dining room, and my grandfather -- we must have had roast beef for dinner -- So he says, “Hey Susie,” I think he called me Susie, “Would you like a second helping?” [00:17:00] And that’s all I needed because he said it. So I said, “Sure, Grandpa.” So I’d eat up my second helping. “Hey Susie, would you like a third helping?” and I’d take the third helping. And this went on. Then he said, “You know, you’re going to grow up to be big and strong.” And he looked at my father and he said, “She’s going to marry a Republican and she’s going to be very rich.” (laughter) Well neither one happened. We were -- they were all FDR Democrats, okay? So it was just a joke. I mean, it was really a joke. So, I’m trying to think. I had -- there were five - I think there were five boys and five girls in my class. And every Friday night, [00:18:00] there was a square dance. My girlfriends were all in my class, but then I had some in other classes, too, some girlfriends from other classes. LJ: Were there any boys in the class? SB: Yes, there were five boys. And I remember distinctly in the eighth grade, I had a boyfriend. His name was Freddie. And he was Black, but you couldn’t tell by looking at him. I think his father was Black and his mother was white. And so we got the pictures back -- I think my father took the pictures. By that time that’s what his job was. He was a school photographer. And I showed my mom. I said, “Hey Mom, this is a picture of Freddy, my boyfriend,” and she looked at it and she said, [00:19:00] “Well, you’re going to have plenty of boyfriends.” I think she was able to tell that he was Black. She didn’t say anything else. But I had another boyfriend, Rocky, and my father would take Rocky 9 �and I to the movies. And that’s all I knew were boyfriends. Of course, that was not until like the seventh and eighth grade. But Rocky was really my friend, and I used to go over to his house a lot when I was in the fourth and fifth grade and whatever. But you know, I got good grades of course, except in math. I was no good from the get-go. And in behavior, remember comportment or deportment? LJ: Yes. How did that come out? SB: Not good. (laughter) [00:20:00] Not good at all. I remember one of the things was “respects the rights of others.” I got an F. (laughs) I don’t know where they got that from. LJ: Where did they get that from? SB: I don’t know. I don’t know. LJ: Did you have some particular kids that you didn’t like? SB: Not really. I don’t quite understand it. I don’t understand that part of it, but the stuff that was going on at home probably affected me in school, and that’s what happened. I just remember going in the back of the school and trading with other girls. We traded our mothers’ makeup. So I’d bring in my mother’s powder and switch it for some lipstick or something. But I remember putting nail polish on my nails. It was just paint, [00:21:00] it’s red paint, and my mother said, “Get that off your nails. You’re not going to put that on your nails.” But it was -- in some respects it was an incredible place to really grow up. LJ: It sounds quite bucolic. SB: It was bucolic, and the extended family would come up from New Jersey and New York for weeks on end in the summer so there was always somebody around. LJ: Who came up, aunts and uncles? 10 �SB: Aunts and uncles. I had one cousin that came up all the time. She was five years older than me. And one aunt, her sister, and one uncle -- actually they were my grandmother’s sister and brother, so they were my great-aunt and my great-uncle. They had a camp, a cottage next to Twin Lakes. And so we would go and stay overnight there, and it was just a little cottage. [00:22:00] LJ: Where is Twin Lakes? SB: Twin Lakes is in Salisbury, Connecticut. LJ: The same area? SB: The same area, yeah, northwest Connecticut. It was like 10 miles from our house. And then we went to Lakeville Lake, too. But anyway. I learned how to swim. LJ: Lakeville is in Massachusetts? SB: Yes, but there’s a Lakeville, Connecticut. Now, if you can picture this, it’s all about 15 miles south of Great Barrington. LJ: Yes, I know where Great Barrington is, in the western part of the state. It sounds bucolic. SB: Well, it was bucolic, but something pretty traumatic happened. I think I was in the seventh grade, or maybe the end of the sixth [00:23:00] grade. My mother was 41, and she got pregnant. And I remember she was pretty upset about that. (laughs) She wasn’t using birth control really or anything, I don’t think. And she had the baby, and it was my brother. And my father was thrilled to death to get a boy. And my mother was, too. And we brought him home and my mother -- the pictures I see of my mother feeding him and taking care of him -- she was overjoyed. But I don’t know how long afterward, she started to stay in her bedroom, and she wouldn’t leave except to take care of my brother, I guess. But then she had my grandmother. And my mother started to [00:24:00] -- I 11 �didn’t know this, I didn’t know what was going on, because I’d knock on her door and she’d say, “Leave me alone, I’ve got a headache.” And she got depressed. And everybody thought it was postpartum depression. [There was no diagnosis of this back in the 1950s.] And she was so depressed that she had to be hospitalized. And back then, she went to a state hospital in Connecticut. She was out of the house for two years. They kept people for a long time. And she had shock treatments, okay? So we didn’t know what was going on. My father and my grandmother -- I think my grandmother said, “Your mother’s gone away for a rest,” they didn’t think we could understand why [00:25:00] she was gone. So, my grandmother basically pinched hit, and my father hired this woman from downtown to come and be there for us when we got home from school, so we were covered. LJ: That is terrible. SB: But she did come home once. They let her home for the weekend, and she was -- she scared the daylights out of me. She was really scary because she was -- LJ: Was she angry? SB: No, she wasn’t angry. She was just so spaced out and depressed. And I remember saying to her at one point, I said, “Ma, are you going to come to my eighth grade graduation?” and she said, “I think so.” And I kept thinking, “Oh my God I hope she can come; I hope she can come,” and she was let out of the hospital in time for her to come to my eighth grade graduation. LJ: Thank God for that. SB: Yes. [00:26:00] But obviously it had an effect. LJ: Of course it did. It imprinted on you. What about your brother? 12 �SB: My brother -- my mother tells the story that when she came home from the hospital, she went up to his bedroom, and he looked at her and he said, “Mama?” She said, “Yes,” and she held him. So, my brother really got the best of my mother, I’d say. LJ: Because he was the eldest? SB: No, no, he was the one that was born the last, and then she got depressed. LJ: Was it ever diagnosed as to what it was? SB: Well, they didn’t diagnose things correctly back then. [00:27:00] And they said that she had schizophrenia, and she didn’t. She was just deeply depressed. LJ: Did she and your father get along? SB: No. They were going to get a divorce every time you’d turn around. They fought a lot. They made up, everything was nice for a while, and then they’d have another fight. This went on practically all their lives. LJ: This sounds miserable. Did that have an effect on you, do you think? SB: I think so. For my younger sister, she took off as soon as she could. She got married when she was 19 just to get away. I didn’t do that. I stuck around for a long time for better or worse. And my older sister also took off. So my two sisters went to California, [00:28:00] and that’s where they are today. LJ: And you were the youngest? SB: No, my older sister, Bunny, then me, then my younger sister, Jean, and then my brother Eugene, who died in May. LJ: What did he die of? 13 �SB: Nobody really knows. He was only 61. He was 10 years younger than me. And he had a very short case of ALS, but he had other neurological problems going on that nobody could figure out. He had too much protein on his brain, and his brain had atrophied. LJ: That’s terrible. SB: And there was no genetic thing about it. It was like, nobody could really figure out what was wrong. LJ: Sometimes there is no answer. SB: That’s [00:29:00] right. There wasn’t an answer which makes it harder. LJ: Where did you go to school, and did that take you away from home? Or you went to your regular public schools, and then after that, did you go to a college? SB: I just want to tell you that we left Falls Village after my eighth grade, and we moved to Cohasset on the South Shore [of Boston], and I went to high school for four years there, okay? And I don’t know. LJ: Cohasset is a nice place to be. SB: It’s a nice place to be, yes. LJ: Were you living in Cambridge at that time? SB: No, no, I was living in Cohasset. I went to high school there. And then, I went to Simmons College. [00:30:00] Let me just tell -- in terms of knowing anything about homosexuality or anything, I knew nothing. I looked at an old diary that I had put together when I was a junior in high school, and I was talking about these two boys being fairies. And I went to a slumber party with my gang, there were a gang of us, and there were three girls in a bed, and I was in the middle. And the girl in back of me was touching me, and I just froze like this. I was scared to death, okay? So I went to college. 14 �Simmons College, it was an all-women’s college. And there was a woman there, [00:31:00] a young woman who I was very friendly with, and I wanted to be her roommate sophomore year. And we were going to do that. But then she told me that she was going to be roommates with someone else. LJ: I wonder why that changed. SB: And it changed -- I look back on it now, and I think about it, they were lovers. But at the time I didn’t have enough in my head to know. LJ: Well, had there been any indications in your high school experiences to you, any little flickers of things that you remember now where you look back that indicated that you might have had more than an -- well, I won’t say normal, but ordinary interest in women? SB: No. None. Absolutely none. And I think it was [00:32:00] because nobody, nobody talked about that at all, and the only way you ever went out -- I mean there was these strict rules of what girls could do. And I found out that there were some girls in my class that were screwing around. They were going to bed with guys. And it just horrified me. And the rule was, in order to go out on a Saturday night you had to go steady with somebody. So I ended up with this guy and I went steady with him for three years in high school so that I could go out on Saturday night. It never occurred to me to break those rules. LJ: Was that the rule your family laid down? SB: [00:33:00] They didn’t lay it down, but they were certainly positive about it. They thought that that was good. And it was easy (laughs) to pull the wool over my mother’s eyes because she -- LJ: She was very Catholic? 15 �SB: She was Catholic, but she was also kind of laissez-faire, and she didn’t pay much attention. So we’d sneak down the back stairs and go out of the house at two o’clock in the morning, and go down to the beach and all this stuff. She didn’t know what was going on. LJ: She didn’t know? SB: No, she didn’t know what was going on. And my father was away on business a lot. So when he was away on business, that’s when we’d sneak out of the house and do what we wanted to do. LJ: At two o’clock at the morning. SB: Yeah, yeah. I left the church when I was 14 because I started reading about the Holocaust and I could not square there was a God, [00:34:00] a Catholic God, and there were six million people that were killed like that. So I went to the released time that they had. They let the Catholics out for an hour to go to Catholic doctrine class, catechism class or whatever, and I said to the -- it was a layperson. I said, “You know, if there’s a God how come he let six million people die like that?” And she said, “Well, I don’t know but you’re just going to have to have faith.” Well, that wasn’t good enough for me. So I basically left the church when I was 14, and I didn’t get much flak for that, because my mother was not going to church either anymore, really. She was kind of fed up [00:35:00] with it. But I’d pretend to go to church sometimes. She’d give me a dollar to put in the basket, and it never ended up in the basket. (laughs) LJ: Where did it end up, at the candy store? SB: Well, sometimes the candy store but more likely, we went to get cigarettes with it because they were like 28 cents a pack back then. So I could get four packs or whatever. 16 �Anyway, yeah. A lot of my friends were smoking, and I started smoking when I was 15. Terrible. LJ: How long did it continue? SB: Until I was 33. LJ: Then you were smart enough to stop? SB: Yes, because my mother had emphysema, and I realized that that was going to happen to me if I kept that up. So I’m glad I quit when I was in my thirties. It [00:36:00] was a good idea. I started to grow up a little bit. (laughs) LJ: Learned the right things to do. So, your mother and father did stay together? They didn’t get a divorce. SB: They did stay together, to the detriment of all of us, probably. They shouldn’t have stayed together. But on the other hand, my mother had no skills. LJ: She had no source of income. SB: She had no source of income. LJ: And it would have been very bad for you. SB: It would have been very tough. It would have been very tough. She just couldn’t do anything like that, outside the home. She was a great cook. She was -- she did everything in the home. LJ: But she didn’t have marketable skills. SB: Right. LJ: I wanted to ask you a question here. It’ll come back to me. [00:37:00] Oh, I know. So we have a sense of your childhood and the relationships of people and everything. Now 17 �could we get some sense of when you first felt as though there was an attraction to other women? SB: Yes, yes. Well, let me just tell you, after college, I spent 10 years having a good time. LJ: What did you study at college? SB: I studied Community Work. And no one told me that I had to have a master’s in social work to get a social work job, so I went around knocking at these doors of nonprofits and everything and saying, “Here’s my resume,” and they’d look at me and they’d say, “No, we can’t hire you, you don’t have a master’s degree.” So anyway, I knew I’d have to go back to school eventually, but I didn’t feel like rushing it. So for those 10 years, [00:38:00] I’d say I pretty much didn’t have any great goals, that much, which was very unlike me. I’m a goal-oriented person. But I had a good time. And I was going out a lot with men. I was starting to find a career, trying to figure it out, and I took a course at Boston State College at Boston State, the old Boston State, in education. And I thought, “Well, maybe I want to be a teacher.” And I did this paper on Maria Montessori and I really didn’t know anything about her. And when I read about her, I thought, “Oh my God, I want to be like that.” So I found out there was a training course I could take in New Jersey, [00:39:00] so I went down a New Jersey for a year, and I took a course in teaching Montessori. And then I sent my resume out all over the country, and I got a job by phone in California, okay? I was thrilled. I mean, the furthest west I’d been was Albany, New York. (laughter) LJ: Time to go. SB: Way time for me to go. 1973. So I answered an ad in the Phoenix. Remember? LJ: I remember the Phoenix. 18 �SB: Yeah. And it said, “Two women” or maybe “two girls,” I don’t know, “want two others to drive out to California and share expenses.” I said, “That’s [00:40:00] it.” So, they left their phone number or something, I don’t know, but I got in touch with them and they said, “Okay, great.” So, we set it up, and I have to tell you this, this is funny. My parents gave me a ride. They were living in Rhode Island. So I had to go to Rhode Island to meet them. So we’re going down this dirt road and we end up at this house, and there’s a woman standing outside, and she’s got these great big dogs with her and they scared the living daylights out of me. And I got out of the car and I said, “Are Ellen and Karen here?” They were the two women, Ellen, and Karen. She said, “Yeah, they’re inside.” I went like, “Oh, God.” LJ: A big butch. SB: A butch, right? I didn’t know. I mean, I had some kind of inkling, but not really. So, my parents said goodbye to me, okay, so I go inside and there’s Ellen and Karen. [00:41:00] And they were really nice. And it never occurred to me in a million years that they were a couple. And Ellen looked like Judy Collins. Oh my God. But I mean, I looked at her, I thought, “She’s really attractive,” but I didn’t -- you know. So we had another woman that showed up too, so they had two cars. So the two cars had to kind of go tandem across the country. And what do I remember about that trip? We took Karen’s cats. So we’d stay at the Motel 6s along the way when the room was six bucks. That’s how it got the name. The room was six bucks. So we were paying a dollar and a quarter apiece or something for a room. And we had the cats there, too. [00:42:00] LJ: That’s amazing. 19 �SB: The only thing that hit me was that Ellen and Karen slept together in the same bed. And I thought to myself, “Why don’t they -- why can’t I sleep with Karen one night, and Ellen can sleep,” I mean, here I am stupid. LJ: You’re not stupid. SB: I mean, I didn’t know anything. Nothing. They were great companions, particularly Ellen, because she had a good sense of humor. Karen was kind of a little stiff, but anyway. They were fine. And the only thing was -- I’m trying to think if it was. Ellen seemed to drink [a lot]. She was drinking in the car. LJ: Was she the one who was on the outside, the butch? SB: No, no. We didn’t -- that was the last time I saw the butch. So anyway, I just remember she got some weed, and we were smoking it in Montana, or something. But anyway. So [00:43:00] we dropped the other woman, Mary, Mary Marshall her name was, God, I can’t believe I can remember it. We dropped her in Pomona, that’s where she had to get off, and the three of us ended up in a motel room in Santa Monica because I didn’t have an apartment, and they didn’t have an apartment. So we stayed in this motel room for a week. And we each went to look for apartments. But it must have been like the second or third night, Ellen came up to me and she said, “There’s something I have to tell you.” And I said, “Well, go ahead.” She said, “Karen and I are a couple.” And I looked at her, and I said, “I don’t care, just don’t get me involved.” (laughter) Which is really -- LJ: That’s very likely. SB: Which is really funny, [00:44:00] because I end up in Downey, which is south of LA, about 20 miles south of LA, and they lived in Silverlake, which was the gay district in LA at the time. So anyway, every weekend I would go to their house. And I said, “Take 20 �me to a bar. I’d like to go to a bar.” So they said, “Sure.” So we’d go to these bars and I mean, it was diesel dykes. (laughs) LJ: Everywhere. SB: Everywhere. LJ: Sizing up all the femmes. SB: I guess so. I mean, I’m sure there were people who weren’t doing that, but that was maybe sort of the end of the time, I don’t know, where people -- women had to -- part of it was playing a [00:45:00] role so that you could figure out who you were, and the other person would know you’re a lesbian. So, anyway, the diesel dykes scared me, okay? So I didn’t -- and after all, I wasn’t a lesbian. I was actually -- I was living with this guy in Downey. So anyway. LJ: Somebody you met out there? SB: Somebody I met out there. So then what happened was -- oh okay. So we’d go to these Friday night dances at this big warehouse in LA, and they were lesbian dances, and I wanted to go. I was curious. I wanted to find out about it. So I thought it was wonderful that we could all dance together and just -- it didn’t feel like this restriction about being with a guy where you had to -- [00:46:00] where I felt like I had to do everything right. I didn’t feel that way with women. LJ: You could relax. SB: I could relax for the first time in my life. LJ: And celebrate being a woman. SB: And celebrate being a woman, exactly right, Lois. And what happened was, after the dance was over, which was like midnight or one o’clock, most people went out for 21 �breakfast. That’s what they did out there. So Karen didn’t go that night. She was going to USC and she had to study, or she had to do a paper. So it was just Ellen and I. So Ellen and I are going down the street, she’s driving, and she stops at a stoplight, and she turns to me, and she kisses me. And I went, “Oh my God. [00:47:00] Oh my God.” The thing was, Lois, it was like I couldn’t -- what I couldn’t believe was that I felt as attracted to her as I did to any man. I know that doesn’t sound like it’s politically correct, but at the time it felt -- I was sexually attracted to her but I was still -- but it was this -- and I couldn’t believe that I could actually feel that way. It was amazing to me. And of course it was the wrong thing. She was with Karen. Well, being the rebel or whatever the hell I was, I ended up that summer living with them. Karen would be off at USC with her studies, and Ellen [00:48:00] and I would be at home. And I had this, I don’t know, months-long affair with her. And I think Karen was starting to get what was going on. And I said to Ellen, I said, “Ellen, why don’t you -- aren’t you going to leave Karen for me?” She said, “No, I’m not.” I said, “You’re not? What are we doing here?’ I mean, I was just like a 15-year-old kid with a boyfriend who was leaving me. I didn’t know anything. She wasn’t going to leave her bread and butter -- not her bread and butter, but her relationship she’d had for years and years. I still have the book, the diary I kept while this was going on. And it was heartbreaking. [00:49:00] It was absolutely heartbreaking. I mean, I fell for her like my first love. Maybe even more, though. It was like, this was the first time that I really felt like, “Wow, this could really be something.” LJ: A whole side of your personality suddenly emerged. SB: Exactly. It was incredible. So I went home that summer, and I called her. I kept calling her, and she was so glad to hear from me, but she wasn’t going to do anything. But I 22 �thought to myself, “I’ll go back there, and I’ll make her,” blah blah. And I went back, and she didn’t, and I stopped seeing her because even I knew that this was really hurting me, to keep seeing her. LJ: Because [00:50:00] you wanted to be with her so much. SB: I just wanted to be with her. I just wanted to have sex with her. I just wanted to love her. And it was just breaking my heart. So, I just stopped seeing her. And I had a friend that moved out to LA during that time, and she was a close friend of mine, so we hung out together and stuff. And she was someone who was afraid of coming out, and she admitted to me that she was a lesbian. And she couldn’t come out at work. She was a secretary, blah blah. LJ: She’d lose her job. SB: Well, not really. But she was very inhibited. She’s very inhibited. So she had met this lesbian couple through the thing -- do you remember the Wishing Well? LJ: Yes. [00:51:00] SB: Okay. That’s where she met this couple. And in fact before I -- maybe it was the first summer that I came back, she had me to her house. She lived on Beacon Hill, and she had this lesbian couple come for dinner. And their names were Jeanne and Sue. And they were very nice. I liked them very much, and everything. And so what she did when she moved out to LA, she invited Jeanne and Sue to come out to LA to visit. Well, Jeanne was not with Sue anymore. She was with somebody else; I forget her name. I think it was Marie. You okay? LJ: My glasses were just pushing. Yes. I’m okay. I’m listening. [00:52:00] 23 �SB: So, she invited them to come out and so they came out. Jeanne and Marie, I think her name was. So we did the tour. We took them all over the place. I had a 1960 Plymouth or something. It was a dog. (laughs) It had push buttons, push buttons to go forward and to go back. LJ: I thought maybe it had a clutch that you had to push in, and then just slowly go as the car went (sound). SB: I know what you mean. Right. No, this was an automatic, but it was push button. It was crazy. Anyway, so we showed them the town and everything. And I started looking at Jeannie, and I thought, “I don’t know, I kind of like her, but I better mind my own business because I don’t want to get into another situation.” [00:53:00] So they left, and they went back to here. They were living in Leominster. And maybe five days later, I get a letter from Jeannie, and she said, “You know, that was a wonderful time with you, and I have to tell you that I’m attracted to you. And Marie and I are just casual so don’t worry about that. And I’d just like to know if you’re interested.” (laughter) LJ: That’s something, isn’t it? I mean, that’s very formal. “I’d like to go with you; here’s why I want to go with you.” (laughter) That was wonderful. Did you pick up on that? SB: Well, I did. Amazingly enough, I picked up on it. And we had 90 dollar phone bills back then. Remember when they charged [00:54:00] for long distance? LJ: They charged you for everything. SB: Yes. And we were expressing our love over the phone. And she applied for a job at Lesbian and Gay Community Services in Los Angeles. An administrative job. And she flew out, and she went for the interview, and they were going to hire her, and she said to me right then, she said, “I can’t live here. I can’t live here. I come from this town in 24 �Massachusetts.” And you know, LA is fine for a couple of years, but who the hell wants to live -- I mean it’s a place for temporary people that are just transitioning. LJ: It’s a launching pad. SB: It’s a launching pad. You got it. It launched me. (laughter) [00:55:00] So, what happened was, at that point, I was no longer teaching Montessori, I was just doing temp work. And I thought, “There’s no reason for me not to leave.” LJ: You can get a job. SB: I can get a job. I’ll just go back with her. So that’s what I did. In 1976, I went back to Leominster, of all places. And she was living in a house. She didn’t own it or anything. So, we started housekeeping together. And she was a social worker, and I did temp work for a while, and then I got a job in town, so I had to take the bus and everything. But she told me at the beginning, she said, “I found a lesbian group that we can go to.” I said, “Fantastic.” She may not have said lesbian, though, it might have been gay women, you know. [00:56:00] LJ: Lesbian was a bad word in those days. SB: Right. This was 1976. So, I said, “Well that’s nice. What kind of a group is it?” And she said, “Well, it’s a lesbian separatist group.” And I went, “What?” (laughter) I mean, I was new to things, right? I thought, “What? Are you kidding? How can you be separatists? You’ve got to work.” So anyway she said, “Well, let’s just go.” And so, we went to this group. It was in Littleton. And you mentioned Jan Chase, right? LJ: Yes, indeed. SB: Didn’t she come from Littleton? LJ: Not from Littleton, but we went to Littleton because she had a summer place. 25 �SB: Oh okay, so there’s a different one. There’s a farm there, Chase Farm in Littleton. LJ: Yes, I know that. SB: Anyway, [00:57:00] so I went to it. It was on a Sunday afternoon, and it was led by two women, scary women, and there were a bunch of -- well, there weren’t a bunch. I mean there were probably 10 women there, and nobody looked very threatening. (laughter) LJ: They all looked sort of -- SB: No, I mean, by that point -- LJ: They were afraid of losing their lovers, that’s what they were afraid of. SB: You think? LJ: Yes, things were so secret in those days, that you grabbed onto somebody, and you didn’t want them looking at anybody else. SB: Oh yeah, true. True. LJ: Not me. I mean, I don’t think I was that way. I might have been. SB: But I know what you mean. LJ: People were afraid because it was very hard to maintain a relationship. [00:58:00] SB: Yeah. These two women really had us over a barrel because there was no other group in that area. So we stuck with them for over a year. And in fact, we went into therapy with those two women, Jeannie, and I, because we were having some difficulties. They were our therapists, which wasn’t a good idea at all. One of them had actually been in prison for drugs. Found out later. And she was a manipulator, and she was manipulating the other woman who was -- had been a nurse, had had an ordinary life, and she was living off of this other woman. That’s what she was doing. And she was very conniving. LJ: Were they of similar age? 26 �SB: Yes. Very conniving. [00:59:00] And she was really not good. But anyway, I made a lifelong friend there in that group. And the rest of the women were fine. I mean, we got together with them and had parties and talked about different issues and everything. But the whole thing about being separatist didn’t make any sense to me at all, because how the hell was I going to make a living -- LJ: If you were a separatist. SB: Right. LJ: Farming? SB: Farming. There you go. I could have been at Chase Farm. (laughter) LJ: The flowers don’t object. SB: The flowers don’t object. Oh God, Lois. That’s perfect. So, anyway, I told Jeannie, I said -- I was there a year in Leominster. I said, “Jeanie, I can’t do [01:00:00] this anymore. I can’t live in Leominster.” She said, “Well, I can’t live in Boston.” I said, “Well, you’re going to have to move closer to Boston.” So she said, “Okay.” So, we moved to Arlington, and we brought a roommate to share the rent because neither one of us was making that much money. And so that was kind of a weird situation. She was straight. LJ: Oh, she was straight. Thank God. SB: (laughter) Thank God? LJ: Otherwise you’d have come home and find maybe somebody in bed with Jeannie. SB: Right, right. Well, we were close to her, but it was not a good setup because -- oh God, I can’t believe what we did. We did this thing every Thursday night called creative aggression, and we (laughter) -- 27 �LJ: I’ve never heard that one before. SB: Oh yeah, it was a [01:01:00] big thing. We had these Bataka bats, and if we were angry about something that the other person had done – they [the bats] were made out of foam, and we’d just get our aggression out. It was crazy. So finally, Dawn understood that she’d better leave, because she was a third wheel. LJ: She was getting beaten up by sponge. SB: By sponge. (laughter) But we went through the Blizzard of ’78, together, and I’d probably gained 10 pounds from her brownies that she made. But anyway, I was teaching in Winchester, Jeanie was a social worker in Arlington, and Dawn was living in North Cambridge. During that time, I went to women’s concerts, you know, when they’d have the women’s music, like at Sanders Theater? [01:02:00] LJ: Oh, yes. SB: I went to all of those. I went to a group called Clear Space in Central Square. LJ: I remember that. SB: It didn’t last that long but that’s where I met Barbara Webber. LJ: Oh really? SB: Yes. She was there at least for one or two times. And I was doing the Take Back the Night [an annual women’s march]. I was involved in that. And going to New Words a lot, and stuff like that. LJ: All that stuff that was there in the 70s, from the 60s. SB: Right. I’m trying to think. And I was going to Gay Pride with Jeannie, but we were hiding behind people. LJ: On the sidewalk? 28 �SB: Yes. Because I would have been fired. [01:03:00] I was teaching young children, and she might have been fired, I don’t know. She was a social worker. But we were hiding because we were afraid of the TV cameras. I still have a couple of pictures of the Pride thing. So anyway, Jeannie and I lasted for five years, and we just figured out we were not compatible, after five years. But we continued to live together which was a terrible mistake. (laughter) LJ: Well, financially, it probably made sense. SB: Well, it kind of did at the time. It was just the easiest thing to do. But she came home one night with a guy. I was furious. LJ: A guy? SB: A guy, right. I mean she -- LJ: Had there been any hint that she was bisexual? SB: Yeah. But I thought those days were over. Apparently not. [01:04:00] So that’s when I thought, “I got to get out of here.” And I did. I left Arlington, and I went to live with a couple of friends of mine, a lesbian couple, in Belmont. And I was there for about a year or so. And I felt like the third wheel because they were together, and I was single, and it just didn’t feel right. And I’d always wanted to live in Cambridge anyway. I didn’t want to live in Belmont. So I started looking around and I found a single mom and her daughter. LJ: Was she a lesbian? SB: No, she wasn’t. Her name was Wendy. I can’t remember the name of the street, but it was back where the police station was in Central Square. [01:05:00] It was back of there, on the side street. And the apartment was in bad shape, but the rent was incredibly cheap. 29 �And I had decided at that point that I did not want to teach little kids anymore, that I really wanted to teach adults how to read, because the friend that I made in the lesbian separatist group had a father who couldn’t read. And he was telling me about it, and it just hit me that, “Wow, wouldn’t that be something if I could help people to learn to read?” And I knew that there were people, adults who couldn’t read. And so I decided I’d go back to get my master’s degree in education at Northeastern. And so, for about four or five years, I pretty much stuck to [01:06:00] studying at Northeastern. And I worked at Northeastern and MIT, and they paid my tuition. LJ: Really? SB: Oh yeah, Northeastern paid all of it and so did MIT. I never had -- LJ: That’s fantastic. SB: I didn’t pay one red cent. And at night, I was teaching. I was starting to teach adult basic ed at the Harriet Tubman House, down in your neighborhood. LJ: Which is about to not be Tubman House. SB: You know that? LJ: Yeah. They’re going to build something over it. The lease is up and it’s going to be taken down, and they’re going to build a huge -- SB: I am so upset about that. LJ: I am, too. SB: I am so upset. I wish there was something that we could do. LJ: Yes. So anyway, you got your education. 30 �SB: I got my education, and because -- [01:07:00] I did it part-time because I had to work full time. So I [took the courses] at night and that’s why I took so long. I got my degree in 1985, my master’s degree. LJ: In education? SB: In education. And I enjoyed it very much because the Reading Clinic was fantastic. I had this great kid from Roxbury and at first, he looked like he wasn’t going to go for anything, and I got him to put on a radio program of his own and do different things with him. It was really interesting. So I was thrilled. But I got the degree in reading for K through eight, or K through 12, but I didn’t want to teach in a public school. I wanted to teach adults how to read. And that’s what I ended up -- an opening came up for an adult basic ed teacher at the Harriet Tubman House full time. [01:08:00] LJ: Really? So you went over there. SB: And I went over there, and I was there for five years. Five years. LJ: This was in the late 80s. SB: Yeah, I’m trying to think. Yes, it would be in the late 80s, yes. That’s right. LJ: And we never met you until later on. SB: I know. LJ: You didn’t get to DOB. SB: I didn’t get to DOB. I knew something was going on at the Old Cambridge Baptist Church, but I think I was in Arlington and I just wasn’t paying attention or something. Really. And Jeannie was more of an introvert. She didn’t want to -- she didn’t particularly want to meet new people or anything. So anyway, so let me see. Okay. [01:09:00] So. 31 �LJ: You were talking about -- SB: Go ahead, Lois. LJ: Yeah, no. The late ‘80s. So, where did you teach? What did you do with it? SB: I went back to the Tubman House. They had an opening for a full-time teacher. And they gave it to me because I worked there at night. LJ: That’s great. SB: And Janet Nicholas was my supervisor. And Janet is the wife of Susan Jacoby, that Sheri is in a group with. LJ: So that’s what you were talking about. SB: Yes, that’s what we were talking about. So, Janet and I, we were already friends because we did literacy volunteers. I did literacy volunteers for a while. And I had this man -[01:10:00] this is weird -- to teach how to read. And I said -- and he did tell me that he’d been in prison. And I said, “Can you tell me what you were in prison for?” And he said, “Well, I won’t tell you until the end of the program.” So, we had so many weeks with this person. And at the end of the time -- I mean he was good. I really enjoyed teaching him and everything. At the end of the time I said, “Okay, it’s time for you to tell me what you were in prison for,” and he said, “Well, I was in there for murder.” I went, “Oh my God.” (laughter) LJ: Where’s the door? SB: Why didn’t I get the -- oh, my God. And I sat there stone-faced like, “Oh, okay.” LJ: You didn’t elaborate. SB: No. I said, “Well, I’m sorry to see you go,” [01:11:00] but, oh my God. LJ: He really murdered somebody? 32 �SB: Yeah. Well, you know what it was? He said it was somebody he knew, and he got really, really angry. I don’t know whether -- I can’t remember whether [he used] a gun or a knife. He was in a barroom, okay? Part of his parole was he couldn’t go into another barroom. Of course he did, and then he went back to prison. So anyway, yeah. So that was all very interesting. (laughs) And teaching at the Harriet Tubman House, I just loved it. I loved it so much. LJ: How many students did you have in a class? SB: Let’s see, I probably had about 10 in the morning. I had women who were -- they were on AFDC, [01:12:00] Aid to Families with Dependent Children, and they were remarkable. The fact that they could even walk through the door. . . LJ: They had experiences, I’m sure. SB: Oh my God, the stories. I mean some of them, they didn’t get any sleep the night before, because in the project that they lived in, there were gunshots in the hallways. I had one woman coming down from the North Shore, a motel, taking a bus down and going to the Tubman House. I couldn’t believe it. I said -- I kept trying to tell people how incredible they were to walk through the door at their age to do this. And then I had a night class that met two nights a week, and they [01:13:00] were working. Everybody in that class was working, and there was a guy there who was working at GE, and he had a pretty good job. He couldn’t read. He had a guy, his friend, reading the instructions on how to do something so he knew what to do. It was incredible. LJ: A terrible deprivation. SB: And his brother was in prison, wrongfully accused of murder. So I said, “We’re all going to write a letter to Willy’s brother,” and we wrote this letter to Willy’s brother and he was 33 �-- Willy told us that he was very happy that he got the letter. And in in the time that I was at the Tubman House, he was exonerated, so he sued the city of Boston, I think, [01:14:00] and he got quite a bit of money. So it was really an experience for me. The jobs I’ve had, I feel like they are part of my activism. They may be different from being out there and protesting and everything, but they really formed me in my thinking about people. So let’s see, I was living in Cambridge and -LJ: You were living with -- SB: The single mom and the daughter. But they were going to buy a condo. LJ: You didn’t have a lover at that point. SB: Well, for a very short time I was involved with a gay man who couldn’t [01:15:00] admit that he was gay. And he said, “You understand that.” And I said, “Well, not really.” (laughter) LJ: Not really. You want one or the other, baby. SB: Yes. So, I moved out of that apartment and I moved to North Cambridge. And I started to do volunteer work, along with everything else. I was volunteering for the North Cambridge News; it was this little local newspaper. And I was telling my father about the people I was -- I started interviewing people in the neighborhood, and my father said, “Why don’t you interview Tip O’Neill?” And I said, “Oh, he doesn’t have time for me.” And my father said, “You don’t know that. Why don’t you give it a shot?” So I went to see the cobbler where Tip O’Neill went to get his shoes fixed, and I had interviewed him, and he said, [01:16:00] “Oh, I’ll get you an interview. I’ll get you an interview, don’t worry about it.” So, a couple of days later, Tip O’Neill’s secretary called me and said, “You’ve got the interview, but you’ve only got 15 minutes with 34 �him.” So she told me when it was, and I went to the library and I just [did] research, research, research on Tip O’Neill. And the day came, and I had this job, full-time job, as an editor in Central Square. I forget the name of the company. Oh, HW Wilson. But anyway, I went on my lunch hour down to the O’Neill building that had been named for him. And I walk -- I go up to the 10th floor, and I walked in the door, and here’s this woman sitting behind a [01:17:00] desk, and the desk has a bumper sticker on it, and it says, “I survived parochial school.” (laughter) She looked like she came out of the 40s, with her hairdo and everything. So I introduced myself, and she said, “Oh I’ll get Fran,” and Fran came out, she was his secretary, and she was a tough cookie. LJ: She had to be to work with him. SB: Well, sure. You had to organize him or whatever. She said, Okay, he’s coming up from the Cape, but he’s going to be late.” So she says, “You sit on that couch with Sal,” and I’m sitting on the couch with Sal DiMasi, remember him? The one who got caught doing something? I can’t remember now. But anyway, so an hour goes by, and then another hour goes by. And I’m sitting there thinking, “I’m going to get fired [01:18:00] from my job.” And all of a sudden, the door opens, and this huge man comes in, and he walks through and goes, “Hi Sarah, how are you doing?” I said, “Oh, fine.” Right? So, he goes into his office and he says, “Fran, bring me my comb.” So she goes over, and she gives him his comb. Combs his hair, and then he goes, “Okay, Sarah, come on in.” I’m like, “God.” Right? So, I went in and I said, “Oh, I’m scared to death.” (laughter) I couldn’t help it. And he said, “Don’t worry darling, you’re right at home.” Well, not really. But anyway, so I sat down, and my knees were -- they were going like this. LJ: Shaking. 35 �SB: I’m going like this. What do I have? I’ve got a tape recorder from Radio Shack, and I’ve got these [01:19:00] mini cassettes. Oh my God. LJ: And you’re not quite sure how to use them. SB: And I don’t know how to use them. And I’m going, “Oh my God,” and I looked at him and I said, “Well I read someplace,” I don’t know how I did this. “I read someplace that you saw Babe Ruth at Dilboy Field in Somerville.” Well, that did it. LJ: He went on. SB: He went on. And then I had to corral him back and say, “Well, can you tell me what it was like to grow up in North Cambridge?” And that was the last question I asked him. I only asked two questions and I got about two hours with him. LJ: You were only supposed to have 15 minutes. SB: Right, right. You got it. LJ: He was having a good time. SB: (laughter) He was. I mean, he loved it. And so did I. And at the end he gave me -- I had my book on him, Tip O’Neill, Speaker of the House, or something. And I said, “Would you please [01:20:00] sign this book for me?” And inside he said -- oh, he said something like, “You’re brilliant, you’re beautiful, you’re blah, blah, blah, Speaker Tip O’Neill.” Then underneath it said, “Now it’s up to you what you do with this interview.” And I looked at him and -- this, really -- I said, “You’ve kissed the Blarney Stone too many times.” (laughter) And he said to me, “Sarah, do you want a picture of us standing by the flag?” I’m thinking to myself, “No, not by the flag but okay, yes I would, I would.” LJ: Anything you say, dear. 36 �SB: Anything you say, right? So guess what? The picture never came out. It never came out. I had to go back and ask the secretary if she could get him up there to get a picture. [01:21:00] So she did. And she actually was a wonderful person. LJ: Was this done when you were doing this type of work for the city of Cambridge? SB: It was right before. So that did it. After I did the interview with Tip, he had written in the book, “Now it’s up to you what you do with this interview,” and my editor of the North Cambridge News said to me, “Why don’t you do an oral history project?” I said, “What is an oral history project?” (laughs) And he told me, and I said, “Oh my God, I’d love to do that.” So that’s how it started. And I had a little money from -- my aunt left me a little bit of money where I could work part-time and do this project part-time. And that’s what I ended up doing. I ended up working for the Cambridge Housing Authority part-time. [01:22:00] LJ: Did you create the idea? SB: Yes, I did. They had money at the North Cambridge Stabilization Committee, because the Red Line was going to Porter Square and they were afraid that the neighborhood was going to get to destabilized, so the federal government actually gave the city money, and part of it went to the North Cambridge News to help people keep track of what was going on. And so I got money. I got a grant. I wrote a grant, and I got it for that. LJ: That’s very exciting that you did that all by yourself. SB: I didn’t know what I was doing. I mean, I made it up. (laughs) I’m not kidding. I made up the whole thing. LJ: Well, it shows how creative you are. 37 �SB: Well, [01:23:00] it was the best thing I ever did, because it was what I should have been doing. And I did it. Now, during that time I went to a lot of veterans’ organizations in North Cambridge. There were three or four of them. And I went to one to talk to people about this project I was doing. And there was a man there who -- and I said, “Sign up, please sign up and I’ll interview you.” So they were a little -- North Cambridge was like really kind of provincial. It’s like, everybody stayed in North Cambridge. They didn’t go anywhere. LJ: Was it an Irish village? SB: Irish. French Canadian, pretty much. So anyway, this guy comes up, and he signs up, and he’s joking, and he is hilarious. [01:24:00] He’s hilarious, okay? And there was something about him. Honest to God, Lois. So he turned around, and he was walking down, and I thought, “I like that guy.” I liked him. So I interviewed him, and it was just one hilarious moment after another. I fell for him. LJ: Did you? SB: I did. I did. I was with him for five years. He had a drinking problem, and he ended up having kidney failure and he died. He died too young. I think he was 63 or something like that. But I don’t regret [01:25:00] being with him. LJ: No, why should you? He was a human being. SB: I really, really loved him. But it was problematic, needless to say. But anyway, it was a lot of fun. LJ: It was a lot of fun, and it was a precious moment in your life. SB: It was. Thank you. Thank you. So, after I did this project on North Cambridge, I went to see the mayor, because I was friendly with the mayor at that point. 38 �LJ: Was it -- SB: Sheila Russell. LJ: No, I thought I knew the mayor. I guess she was prior to that. I can’t remember her name. She was a Black woman. SB: Denise Simmons. LJ: Oh, yes. SB: No, this is before Denise. Sheila Russell. She came from North Cambridge. And I had [01:26:00] to learn -- Joe was the guy’s name that I went with. He was a firefighter, and he knew all the ins and outs of the city. And he told me, “You’ve got to get friendly with these politicians.” LJ: Or you wouldn’t get anywhere. SB: You won’t get anywhere. He said to me, “Don’t you want,” this is a real working-class attitude, but thank God for him, he said, “Don’t you want a check every week?” (laughs) Well yeah, I do. LJ: I’ve got to pay the rent. SB: Yeah. So, I had her go to the city manager, who’s actually the person in Cambridge who is in control, not the mayor, and ask him if I could do another project. And I got in touch with him, and I said, “I would like to do another project,” and he said, “Well, you can do Central Square.” [01:27:00] He probably thought that would scare me off, because everything was changing in Central Square then. It was getting gentrified, and it was changing a lot. But I took up the challenge, what the heck? And he said, “You’re only temporary, you know.” Well, I was temporary in Cambridge for 17 years. (laughter) LJ: Which meant they didn’t have to pay your health insurance, et cetera. 39 �SB: They did. They paid my health insurance. I have a pension from them. I had every benefit except for long-term disability. Every benefit. LJ: Wonderful. SB: I couldn’t have asked for anything more. And I had practically total autonomy, because I was working for the Cambridge Historical Commission, and they really didn’t know what I was doing. (laughter) [01:28:00] LJ: All they knew were history, and that’s all they needed. SB: Their focus was on the buildings in Cambridge. It wasn’t on people. And that was my focus, was people. And I always wanted to interview the people that nobody else would even think of interviewing. That was my idea, was ordinary people, because that’s what Tip O’Neill wanted. And that’s what I figured out, that’s what I wanted to do. LJ: That’s the type of person who says, when they sit down with you, “I don’t know why you want to interview me. I haven’t done anything in my life.” SB: Exactly. LJ: And you search, and you find they’ve had a very rich and full life, which they don’t really recognize. SB: You’re exactly right. And then, when that happens, [01:29:00] that’s what happened the first interview I did with this woman in the Cambridge Nursing Home. I said, “I want to interview you,” and she said, “I didn’t do anything.” And that was true of a lot of women that I interviewed. And I said, “Well, why don’t you just start talking? Tell me where you grew up,” blah blah blah. Come to find out she was a radio operator on Long Island during World War II. Amazing. She brought up two children on her own because she got a divorce. You didn’t do that back then. She ended up in electronics which was not a 40 �woman’s field. I mean, she did a whole bunch of stuff. And what I did was, I transcribed the interview myself, and then I blew it up so she -- her eyes weren’t that good, so she could see it. I said, “Now, you just read this please, and I’ll be back tomorrow, and I want to hear what you have to say about it.” [01:30:00] So I went back, and she’d put stickers all over it and she said, “Now I know what you’re talking about.” And then I felt like I had done my job. You’ve got it, Lois. LJ: Yes. Humanity. SB: Yes. It was just the best. Just the best. LJ: So when did the wonderful man that you were with, when did he die, at the end of the relationship or when you were just beginning? SB: No, I was with him for about five years, and I couldn’t stand the drinking anymore. So I broke up with him, and he went downhill. He just went straight downhill. LJ: He must have loved [01:31:00] you a lot. SB: I think he did. Yeah. He died in 2004. And you know, I never thought that I’d ever have another relationship, because I’m thinking to myself, “Okay, so I was with a man, now what am I going to do?” And I get this phone call from Jeannie about six months later. And she’s living down at the Cape. This was the woman I lived with in Arlington. And she says, “How are you doing?” I said, “Pretty good, how are you doing?” She says, “Why don’t you come down and see me?” So I went down to see her, and we got back together. (laughs) LJ: It went from there. Did we ever meet her at RALLY? SB: No because it was a long-distance relationship. And she wanted me to move to the Cape, and I [01:32:00] did not want to move to the Cape. I wanted to stay here. 41 �LJ: Yes, where all the action was. SB: Where all the action was. Why would I want to go to the Cape? So anyway, that put the kibosh to it. But I was with her for about five years, again, and then broke off. I figured after that that there was never going to be another relationship. I was getting too old, blah blah blah. LJ: Let me tell you one thing. You’re never too old. SB: I found that out. LJ: (laughs) Tell us about that. SB: Okay. Nineteen -- 2018, not 1918. (laughs) 2018. Well, I’d been involved in RALLY and Ole, and -- LJ: [Ole?]. SB: [Ole], I’m having a ball, [01:33:00] right? And I decide to go to the Ole weekend. I’d been to a couple of them, and I decided to go to the one in 2018. And my friends Faye and Louise, I think I rode down to the Ole weekend with them. I did. I did. And I was sharing a room with Suzanne Laurelle. Saturday night, we were playing poker. And Faye came up to me on Sunday and said, “What do you think of Pam?” I said, “Pam who?” (laughter) And [she told me, and] I said, “I don’t even know who she is.” She said, “She was sitting right next to you.” And I said, “Well, I wasn’t paying attention. I was paying attention to the poker.” And she told me [01:34:00] that she had asked Pam what Pam thought of me. And apparently, Pam had been interested. She told Faye that I was a delight. Little did she know. (laughter) No, I’m just kidding. So anyway, I said, “That’s nice.” I didn’t think much of it. But Faye said to me -- she was the yenta, whatever you call it in Yiddish, the matchmaker. And Faye said, “Well, why don’t you -- 42 �we’re all going to Plymouth on Sunday afternoon to have dinner up in Plymouth. Why don’t you ride to Plymouth with Pam and then you’ll get to know her a little bit?” LJ: And then find out. SB: Yes. So I said, “Okay.” Pam came around and I said, “Hi, Pam. I’ll go with you to Plymouth.” And the first thing I noticed with her was [01:35:00] that she was incredibly observant. She’s driving the car, and she’s looking at all these things on the road, and she could see everything. And we just went to Plymouth and had dinner. I mean, I didn’t -she seemed like a really nice person. That’s all I knew. And what happened then? So, Faye said, “Why don’t you ride home with her?” and I said, “No, I’m not going to do that. I’m riding home with you.” So I said to Pam, “Well, Pam, it was really nice to spend time with you, and maybe I’ll see you sooner or later,” sort of like that. So, I went home, and I didn’t hear anything from Pam. And I started to think about it, and I [01:36:00] thought, “Well, I’ll make a friend if nothing else.” And I called her up and I said, “Do you want to go to the S&S for dinner?” and she said, “Oh, I’d love to.” So, I met her at the S&S, and I mean, I just could not believe how relaxed and wonderful it was to spend time with her, because she was funny, and she was understanding, and she was kind. She comes from Oklahoma. (laughs) And I thought, “Wow, she’s really something.” And I found out she was a year older than me and everything, and she was talking about that she had only come out five years ago. LJ: Really? SB: Yeah. LJ: She must have had a family, then. 43 �SB: No, she didn’t. [01:37:00] So, anyway, that was our date. And then, I think she called me the next time and said, “Do you want to do this?” I said, “Yeah.” She remembers exactly the date that we kissed near the S&S. (laughter) I think it was June 6th, but anyway. LJ: That’s a good indicator. SB: Yeah. And our relationship has really grown. And I really love being with her. LJ: That’s wonderful. SB: We’ve been together for over a year now, and it’s been wonderful. It’s really been great. I mean, we don’t live together. [01:38:00] Given my life story, I’m not sure I’d want to. I don’t know. I mean, I might want to with her at some point, but I’m feeling -- LJ: Right now, this is right. SB: This is right. We give each other a wide berth, but we see each other quite often. We talk every day. And I just think she’s one of the best people I’ve ever met in my life. LJ: That’s great. SB: And I never thought it would ever happen again. LJ: That’s the best kind that happens, it suddenly descends from heaven upon you. SB: It just happens. LJ: And it happens. SB: Yes. I’ve never found -- I’ve never been able to go out thinking, “I’m going to meet somebody,” and it happened. [01:39:00] It never happens that way. For me. LJ: No, it comes out of -- not out the woodwork, but it comes out of the blue. SB: Do you need your -- LJ: I need that. 44 �SB: Yeah. Don’t you think? LJ: I think so. For things that are destined to be. Whoops, I dropped something. SB: Can you get it? LJ: I think I can. So, you were going to just let that develop. You’re having a good time? SB: We’re going to my 55th high school reunion this weekend. LJ: Wonderful. (laughter) SB: I mean, I came out to the people at my class at my 50th, so I thought, “Well, I’ll ask Pam to go with me to the 55th.” LJ: That’s wonderful. You [01:40:00] have more courage than I ever had. I wanted to go to my 25th back a long way, but in those days, it wasn’t the thing to do, so I never went to one. SB: Well no, of course not. No, I mean, how could you? I mean, you remember the days when it was illegal. LJ: Oh yes, I do. I do. This has been a wonderful, wonderful time. Let me see if there’s other things that we should cover. I think you’ve given us just a wonderful idea in great detail of how normal it is for a woman to [01:41:00] love a woman. Is there anything else you’d like to add to that or that you want to enlarge upon? SB: I guess I’d just like to say that I’ve always been a fighter, and I fought with my father. But that wasn’t too great. But something good came out of it. And it was the ability to feel how people who have been marginalized in one way or another, how they [01:42:00] feel, and to work toward making things better for people. I mean, I’ve been involved in issues around women’s rights and abortion rights and civil rights and also, the rights of 45 �people who’ve had mental illness. So, that’s been all very important to me, and I’m just glad I’ve had that opportunity to help people. LJ: And you have, from what we’ve heard in this interview; you’ve had a wonderful career. And you still have so much to look forward to. SB: Yes. You’re the best, Lois. Thank you. [01:43:00] LJ: Thank you. SB: Thank you so much. LJ: Anything else you want to add? SB: No. LJ: We have now completed a wonderful interview. And we are turning it off. (laughter) END OF SARAH BOYER FILE 46 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Boyer, Sarah Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sarah Boyer, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-24 Description An account of the resource Interview with Sarah Boyer for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson. Subject The topic of the resource Boyer, Sarah; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/8401607da094eb1e58e531056feb25bd.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=glCK%7Ectn8dLkbVTyPBtDkQNXmHCy2hmoxYrRhIU2I2A6DLo2Im9e6o0RwbvYtAXHBs2ThNyy5oKBQ1nucV%7ElHZDqqJHawlwjux30ssmKZUgzkyjT64ghhcFbleR5ADNB5zLnl0-XJQu5uGxCCG6Nxp7H%7EOlu09U9rNjAeK4yFysaDpwqTLqYrn4foZKkCGyOakBgiEoSsmXxAU8wtqwjPNlkol5gw9ZmEAjfB%7EL8f6Ifkz4SSvyVc-LoyQL8rfb6ADTvP6k5Q2Dsx9M6tBtf7o8eIUt0mUm4iDTQKixvekJ8tE%7ECr%7E1FYMwq60DjlNwlsXDiQGot06K0-Gg52ZKLHA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM dc10e9311206a185dedaaab0d37bdaae https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/82b408c1b8132463041eccbb6f3ae243.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=qWmm6nlam0bT49CbGx%7E5thqBoqeDwY7Mu9XdWzhU8bI9rPh6MPZ5ptOKCMAKBlj3MdbAjmCIZWVWA-FQmoY6TQmIW1IpN4pKS8%7Ef6Chnsjmo9RSKN4nqXxVcsRlyxDQbTy0CD2kUH5lsZ0AnqK71EyOj6wRA9%7EShDODQT9WahA6uVpsZJCbIinrdAVggyOKl-8dVlQ29iuiHqHv6SBbLnYjN4F2fk07JVYZY--OEYEk%7Ewg0gg29sQbpUtreV6zrsvVGXnokZnzHV%7E%7EwcYQosF3jHjNy5hHgDNBhPmTKcNCpmTvsbnZxLQ%7E48B1NoVkwDslWYnEAzpJUQvxsdhQgldg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM d3260fb5b6007a6ca4b3130cda8cded2 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Joanne B. Interviewer: Sarah Boyer October 15, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: Today is Tuesday, October 15th, 2019, and I’m in my house with Joanne. And we are going to have a conversation about Joanne’s life, and we’ll see what happens. (laughter) Joanne, it’s really a pleasure to have you here. I’m so glad I met you at Kate’s Café, and of course I didn’t realize it was you (laughs) when I made these arrangements, because we didn’t know each other -- I didn’t know your last name. But anyway, [00:01:00] do you want to just give me a little background? Where were you born, and what your early life was like? JB: (laughs) SB: I mean, I don’t mean to make it, you know, sound overwhelming. Just... JB: Well, let me say. (laughs) Sure. I can do this in three sentences. SB: Really? JB: I’m kidding. SB: (laughs) JB: I was born in Chicago, and I grew up there and went to college at the University of Chicago. And then I ran away to California, because I had friends from college there. In California, I met people from New York City, [00:02:00] and I decided that I would just take a bus ride to New York City and stay for a couple of weeks, see the city and then go back to California and find another job. Well, I never got -- I never went back to California. I lived in New York for, oh, for quite a few years, and yes, I would guess that that’s where I came out. But I moved from the city to Long Island for graduate school and came to Cambridge in 1976. I came to Cambridge because one of my roommates gave me a list of good places to live in the Boston area, [00:03:00] and Cambridge was 2 �one of them. I looked in The Real Paper and found a roommate. So - I don’t know what else. I’ve lived here a long time. SB: Yeah. So, you grew up around Chicago or in the suburbs? JB: In the city. SB: Mm-hmm. Could you talk about your parents a little bit? JB: Well, I had a -- My mom and dad lived together. They were, I think, happily married. We lived in a house in Chicago. The house was my grandfather’s house, and my mom and dad bought it, oh, maybe when I was two or three years old. [00:04:00] I lived there and went to school down the street. I was a tomboy, but (laughs)I dated. When I got to high school, I dated guys because that was the custom. SB: Right. JB: I graduated from grammar school I’m thinking in 1955. SB: Okay. JB: And [from] high school in, I think, 1959, so that will give you some idea of how elderly I am. SB: It gives me a good idea, even though I’m younger than you a little bit, it gives me a whole thing about the 50s. Although, we all [00:05:00] grew up differently. Were your parents, by any chance, politically involved? JB: Well, I’m going to say yes and no. Interestingly, you know that Chicago was run by a Democratic machine? SB: Yeah. JB: And my parents, on the other hand, were Republicans. (laughs) SB: Oh, they were? 3 �JB: And so for the longest time, I thought that I was Republican, too. (laughs) And I found out differently, and so I consider myself certainly more liberal than -- significantly more liberal than I used to be. I don’t think I’m as far left as some of my friends. I think friends would consider me pretty conservative. But my parents weren’t politically active at all. SB: Oh, okay. I see. [00:06:00] JB: I was the one that marched in the march for the Equal Rights Amendment in Florida, who went to the Women’s March recently in Boston, so I became the more political one. SB: Right, right. Would you say that a lot of your friends were tomboys, too? JB: Oh, that’s a good question. No, I think it was me. SB: Just you, pretty much? JB: Well maybe one, maybe one other girl was, now that I think about it. Yeah, Pat, I think. Because she and I used to act out plays, movies we made up, and they always involved some [00:07:00] kind of, I’m going to say the kinds of adventures that boys had. SB: Yeah. JB: Riding our horses... SB: Were you into the cowboys and Indians? JB: Yes, yes. SB: Because of the westerns on TV? JB: Yes, yes, yes. SB: Okay. JB: Yes, yes. And we were also spacemen. (laughter) So we had kind of a foot in each, each decade or something like that. 4 �SB: Right. What did you see on TV or whatever that gave you the ability to be a spaceman? JB: Oh... Tom Corbett Space Cadet. SB: Oh, my god. Was it on TV? JB: It was on television. SB: Oh. JB: Oh, I loved it. SB: Wow, I never saw it. JB: Oh? [00:08:00] SB: No. JB: I don’t think I’m making that up. SB: No, I’m sure you’re not. JB: There was also Flash Gordon. SB: Flash Gordon, that rings a bell a little bit. JB: That was also on television. SB: Right. JB: And the cowboys, [Roy Rogers and Dale Evans], and the Lone Ranger and Tonto and Gene Autry, of course. SB: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. I was just writing a story about that and how my father made us stick horses that we would ride around on and stuff. Did you play with dolls at all -or anything? Or play kitchen, or? (laughter) You know, all those things that they had back then? JB: Yes, I still have [00:09:00] one of my dolls, actually, and it’s a boy doll, interestingly enough. But mostly, I made up games that my sister and I played. We played pretend 5 �school because she hadn’t gone to school yet. She’s a couple years younger. I made a pretend school for her and told her what school was like and stuff. I made up characters, you know, other students in our “class.” (laughs) Yes, she had dolls [00:10:00] that she played with, but not me so much. SB: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So, did you share a room with her? JB: No. SB: No, okay. JB: No, that was a pretty big deal. We each had our own room. SB: Yeah. Did your parents -- I take it your parents did not care that you were a tomboy. They didn’t give you any grief about it. JB: That’s true. I think they were surprised that I wanted to wear pants all the time. But I wanted to wear pants because I could be ten thousand times more active than if I was wearing a dress. [00:11:00] So, no, they didn’t give me any grief about that. SB: I don’t know about you, but there was a dress code at school that we had to wear a dress or a skirt to school. Is that true? JB: Yes, we did, too. It was impossible to... No girls wore slacks. SB: Yeah. JB: But the friend that I hung out with and I asked if we could roller skate to the elementary school, because there was a smooth sidewalk, and we thought that would be great, that we’d get there a lot faster, you know? Because we walked. And they just said “No.” (laughter) [00:12:00] SB: Yeah. Do you remember -- Did you have any feeling that, given what society was like back then, did you ever feel like you did not fit in, or that you might have different 6 �feelings about girls that were different from your friends? Did you have any of that coming up when you were young? JB: Well, sure I did. I don’t think I’ve ever fit in. I don’t even think I fit in with the lesbian community. [00:13:00] But I think it was more in college that I knew that I was way different. And I dated guys in college, but that wasn’t the correct thing for me. Maybe for somebody else, but it wasn’t the right thing for me. SB: And you knew that. You knew that, but did you feel like you had to do it? That you had to continue to date men? JB: No, I felt it wasn’t fair. I felt that it was a wrong thing to pass myself off as being somebody else. [00:14:00] I turned down guys that wanted to get married. And I said, “No, I have to know myself more than I do now.” So, somehow that was the wrong thing to do. Yeah, it wasn’t until New York that I finally found my way into a more lesbian scene. Certainly not in California. But New York City was like an eye-opening place. I stayed at the [00:15:00] YWCA there, and I met a woman that I really liked a lot. She was the one that said, “Oh, Joanne, there’s a lesbian bar in your neighborhood,” and that kind of thing when I’d finally found my own place. And so she introduced me to that world. I have no idea which way she finally... (laughs) which aspect of her sexuality she finally -- I don’t know what she’s doing now. I don’t know if she’s married to a man or a woman, let me put it that way. Yes, New York was an eye-opening place. SB: So just to go back a tiny bit, [00:16:00] you went to the University of Chicago. JB: I did. SB: As far as I know, that was a pretty liberal place. 7 �JB: That’s true. (laughs) I don’t think I was very liberal in those days. And yes, there were groups for gay people. I would see those, [and] I would think, “Well, that’s interesting,” but I never had enough nerve to become part of one of them. I think they were probably for either men or women. [00:17:00] But I wasn’t brave enough to step that far out of what I knew. SB: What did you get your degree in? JB: Sixty-four. SB: No, but what did you get it in? JB: Oh, biology. SB: Oh, so, did you go to California for the job? JB: Well, I went to California to get away from home. I had tried to join the Peace Corps right after college, and I was deselected from the Peace Corps. SB: What does that mean, “deselected”? (laughter) It means you were selected and then you were deselected? JB: Yes, yes. (laughter) Yes, unselected. So, I was feeling horrible. SB: I’ll bet. JB: And I didn’t want to stay in Chicago, and I didn’t want to live with -- I wanted to see the world, I guess. So I went to California. SB: Yeah. [00:18:00] JB: I lived in Palo Alto. You can’t get around without a car, so there’s a limit to how much you…there was no transportation between Palo Alto and San Francisco the way there is today. So I was pretty isolated there, I would say. Maybe yes and no. Because I had roommates. 8 �SB: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. I forget the distance between Palo Alto and San Francisco, but did you go into San Francisco a lot? JB: No. SB: No, you didn’t. JB: No, because I was getting around by bicycle. [00:19:00] (laughter) I think that the distance is, I’m going to guess 30 miles, but I’m not sure anymore. It wasn’t really an option for me at that time. SB: Right. How long were you in California? JB: I would say a couple years. I’ll say two years. And, what made me go to New York was, I wanted a city because I was living way out. To me, Palo Alto was the boondocks. [00:20:00] And then when I found out in New York that you could get around by subway, you could even go to the beach on the subway, then I had transportation. At the Y, I met a woman who told me that she would pray for me to get a job. SB: Really? JB: Really. So I thanked her, and thought, “Oh, give me a break.” But the next job that I went out [for], I got. SB: Guess it worked. (laughs) JB: Really. And I went back to thank her, and she was so excited about a job that she had just gotten translating, she couldn’t hear what I was saying to her. I got a job right away, [00:21:00] and much more easily than I ever had been able to get a job in California. So I stayed. SB: That’s wonderful. 9 �JB: My roommate sent all my stuff, which was in boxes, and I had enough boxes to fit into a cab, not more than that. (laughs) In those days, and if I think about what I have now, (laughter) it’s another story, you know? SB: Right, right. We travelled light. JB: Yes, because we hadn’t accumulated all this stuff. SB: Yeah, yeah. What part of New York did you live in? JB: I lived in Chelsea. I lived just north of the Village. [00:22:00] It turned out that I lived down the street from where I worked. I could actually walk to work. SB: Wow. That’s wonderful. JB: So that was fabulous. SB: Yeah. What did you do? JB: I was a lab tech. Let’s see, I worked, and then after a while, it got boring, so I found a job at NYU. I had to take the bus there, or I could even take a cab if I wanted to, if I was late and stuff. I met a lot of cab drivers. (laughter) At NYU, I met [00:23:00] a guy who was going to be my mentor. He went out to Stony Brook to be on the faculty there, and he asked if I wanted to go to Long Island. I said, “Sure,” and I went out. SB: But did you continue living in Chelsea? Could you do that, and take the train out to Long Island? JB: Oh, I moved. I moved everything again. (laughter) I don’t remember whether I rented a truck, or whether the guy next door put all of this stuff in his Jeep. I don’t remember. (laughter) SB: Yeah. JB: So I lived out there and went to school out there. 10 �SB: Did you get a doctorate? JB: Yes. SB: At Stony Brook? JB: Yes. SB: Okay. JB: State [00:24:00] University of New York at Stony Brook. SB: Right. That took a while. How many years did it take? JB: Couple of years. Two, three years. SB: Well, that’s not bad. Did you get it in biology? JB: It was in pathology, actually. Basic medical research, I think it’s called. I was going to save the world from disease, you know? SB: Yes, right. JB: And, theoretically, if you learn what causes a disease, you can design medications that pinpoint what’s wrong more easily, rather than just taking stuff off the shelf. So, of course, I was (laughs) going to do that. Easier said than done. SB: Did you stay there, [00:25:00] at Stony Brook, after you got your degree? JB: No. I looked for a post doc all over the United States. I looked for places that were in large cities, because I knew that I had to be close to a gay/lesbian population. And interestingly, when I lived in Stony Brook, I would go back and forth to New York City. Because I had a car, I could drive in and that. SB: Oh, right. 11 �JB: And so, that was easier. You know, that was different. I guess I could have worked for someone at Columbia, but I knew there was a funny dynamic going on in that lab, so I came to Boston. I figured it was a large enough city. [00:26:00] So I’m here. (laughs) SB: Yeah. (laughs) Do you remember about when you moved here? JB: Yes, for sure, it was 1976. SB: Oh, 1976, you said that. And I take it you got a job in your field? JB: Oh, yes. SB: Yeah, what did you do? Did you teach, or…? JB: I did research [on] cells that live in your lungs; they’re called macrophages. Where I did my graduate work, there was more communication between myself and my mentor than there was ever again. [00:027:00] And so most labs -- I went from lab to lab, and I don’t think that I understood... I don’t think I had enough help to get my own grant, so I never did. So I was always going from one lab to another. And it just never worked out. But I had to work. Yes, I had to have an income. SB: Right. JB: So, finally, I decided to do something easier. I would go into teaching. And I decided [00:28:00] that I would teach middle school science. Well, it was a disaster, an absolute disaster. I had tons of information in my head. But to talk to children was something impossible. It was just something that I couldn’t really do. What I found that I could do was tutor, and I could work with students one-on-one, and that’s what I’ve been doing for like the last 20 or so years. I retired maybe, 2017, 2016? I’m not 100% sure. SB: You mean you totally retired? JB: Yes. [00:29:00] 12 �SB: Okay, so you’re not doing any tutoring now? JB: That’s right. SB: Oh, I see. JB: I have to be able to hear the students. SB: Yes. JB: And if you can’t -- and children’s voices -- SB: They’re higher. JB: Yes. SB: Yeah, that’s where the problems are. JB: Big problem. SB: Yeah, yeah. That’s so interesting. I was going to say, when you said, “I decided to do something easy, go into middle school.” Middle school, God! (laughter) JB: Yes. SB: I mean, I’ve been a teacher, and I avoided that (middle school) like the plague. (laughs) JB: Yes, yes. Well, I will say that I’ve learned by doing a lot. (laughter) But that’s all I can say. SB: Yeah. JB: But I really had a job teaching in Tewksbury, and it just [00:30:00] did not work out at all. SB: So you mentioned that someone -- either your roommate or somebody you knew in New York -- introduced you to a gay bar down the street. JB: Yes. SB: And would you say it was pretty well mixed, or was it more men? 13 �JB: I would say for sure it was women. SB: Oh. Many more women? In fact, it was a lesbian bar? JB: It was a lesbian bar, absolutely. SB: Wow. Was that was your introduction? JB: Well... SB: To any -- a group of lesbians? JB: Yes, I think, I would say so. [00:31:00] SB: At the time, was that the only way to meet other lesbians? JB: As far as I know. SB: As far as you knew, when you were living in New York? JB: Yes. SB: There weren’t any bookstores that were women’s bookstores, like New Words was down there, or the Women’s Center, anything like that? JB: No. SB: Just bars. JB: No, I would have liked that. (laughter) But I don’t think there was anything else. I was a smoker then. Didn’t bother me at all. I’ve never been much of a drinker so that didn’t affect me. [00:32:00] SB: Now, when you moved up to Massachusetts, what was the social scene then, in 1976? There was DOB. JB: Yes, but there was a group that was looking for older women, over 30. (laughter) And I think it was a discussion group or something. I don’t know if we read books or if it was a discussion group. They met in Cambridge. 14 �SB: Was it Gay Professional Women? JB: No. I have been to that group, [00:33:00] long ago, I think once. So they met at someone’s house, and we talked. I met a lot of women. Two of those women said to me, “Joanne, [do] you want to come to this book club that we’re starting?” And I said, “Oh, yes, I do.” (laughs) So, I went out to Framingham to a book club, and met another whole batch of book readers. SB: Wow. JB: There was a women’s bar in downtown Boston that I went to. SB: You mean, The Saints? [00:34:00] JB: Yes, I went to The Saints, and there was another bar that was close by. SB: Somewhere Else? JB: Yes, exactly. Okay. So, I went to both of those places. SB: Yes. (laughs) JB: Because that’s how you met other women. SB: Right. Right, exactly. I went there, too. JB: (laughter) Yes, Remember 1982? SB: September 15th? (laughter) JB: Yes. But I liked dancing, too. SB: Yes. Yeah, that was great. We’d close the bar. We did drink, but we didn’t drink till we were drunk. It was more dancing; it was so much fun. JB: It was, it was. And I always wanted The Saints to come back. SB: Oh, yes. JB: And there were fundraisers and stuff for them. 15 �SB: I know. [00:35:00] JB: I would bring friends of mine to go dancing with. SB: Sure. Oh, yeah, it was just great. Did you ever go to The 1270? Do you remember that? JB: That sounds very familiar, but I’m going to say maybe once or twice. Maybe once. SB: Yeah. Well, you know, it was fairly close to Fenway Park. JB: Yeah? SB: And there were three floors of dancing, and they each had different kinds of music. JB: Yes. SB: Yeah. That was great. So how did you find out about DOB? JB: I’m going to say maybe Sojourner? SB: Oh, Sojourner? Right. [00:36:00] JB: Maybe someone from the book club told me? I really don’t know. SB: Yeah. JB: But I know that I certainly went again because it was down the street from me. I could just walk to it. SB: Yeah. Did you attend any of those rap groups? JB: Yes, I think that’s mostly what I did. There was one time when we read plays, and we each took a different part in that. I liked that. I don’t know how we were as actresses… (laughter) We thought we were fine, I suppose. [00:37:00] There might even have been a book group with DOB, too. SB: I think there was. I think so. JB: But I liked that as well. I think they had dances there, too. SB: Sure. 16 �JB: And they also had a Thanksgiving. SB: Yes. JB: Loved that. And that’s how I met Laura Catanzaro. I met her because we’re both in the same building, and I knew her as being another condo owner, but [00:38:00] I went to the DOB Thanksgiving when they had it at Ryles. SB: Oh, they did? JB: Yes. SB: I didn’t know that. JB: I don’t know if the S&S brought all the food or whether DOB made the food. I’m not sure how that worked. But Laura walked in, and I said, “Oh, hi!” And she said, “Oh, hi!” (laughter) SB: Nice. JB: And so that’s how I knew where she was coming from. SB: Mm-hmm, that’s great. JB: Yeah. SB: Yeah, yeah. When you moved into Cambridge, New Words was there, is that right? JB: Yes. SB: I went to New Words, not regularly, though. I would assume they had speakers…? [00:39:00] Did you want a relationship with a woman? JB: Oh, absolutely. Oh, for sure. SB: How do you feel about talking about that? JB: I think there’s how I felt a long time ago, and how I feel now. I’ve been in a good handful of relationships, but I feel today kind of burnt to a crisp by relationships. I feel that I’m 17 �good as a friend, but as a partner, that’s something very different. [00:40:00] I didn’t know that then, when I came to Cambridge. When I first came, I wanted to be involved, no question about it, and I wanted to eventually live with someone -- have a loving, caring, relationship. But (laughs) the person I am today is, I’m really wary of that. So, I’m a good friend, but partnership does not work. Of course, it’s her fault, you understand. SB: (laughs) Right, right, I know what you mean. JB: You know? SB: Yeah, yeah. JB: I don’t know how to do relationships. [00:41:00] Intimate relationships, let’s put it that way. As a friend, I’m good. SB: You’re not the first person I’ve talked to about that, and... JB: No, when you get to a certain age. SB: Well, I’m in a relationship, but it’s difficult sometimes. (laughter) I’ll just put that out there. (laughs) JB: Yeah, I believe that. I think things might work if we lived separately. SB: Yeah. JB: Yes, maybe, this far apart? (laughter) SB: Right. Yeah, yeah. How did you start this Stump Sprouts Weekend? Or, how did that all come about? JB: [00:42:00] Some of the women, a couple women that I met at DOB actually, said, “Joanne, you want to come out to this weekend? It’s a great weekend, it’s a great place, blah, blah, blah.” At that time, there were women that came from Eastern Mass. and 18 �Western Mass. that met at Stump Sprouts. Stef Marcos was the one that put it together. She got tired of doing that, and so, myself and Mary McCabe put it together for a long time. Then I took over. I think it was Stef Marcos that introduced me to [00:43:00] [and] got me organizing the weekend. SB: And have you carried it on every single year? JB: Oh, yes. SB: Wow. So, this weekend has been in existence since, what would you say? JB: Oh, my goodness, I was looking at lists of members, of participants, like 2004. And before that. SB: Before that. JB: I call it a women’s weekend to introduce it, to make it available to just women in general. SB: Yes. JB: It’s really not a lesbian weekend. Boy, have I gotten flack from people about that. [00:44:00] (laughs) SB: Oh, really? JB: Oh, yes, there were some people that I met at one of these Newburyport potlucks, [who] said, “Well, is it a lesbian weekend?” And I said, “No, it’s a women’s weekend.” “Well, I want to do a lesbian thing,” you know, blah, blah, blah. So, I said, “Well, I invited everybody.” Anyway, that’s where I’m coming from. SB: Right. Would you say that -- I mean, do straight women come? JB: Oh, yes. SB: Oh. 19 �JB: I will say yes, because I also asked Women Outdoors people to come. [00:45:00] So, Women Outdoors is open to both lesbians and straight women, and I guess people in between, (laughs) I don’t know. SB: Oh. I don’t know about Women Outdoors. JB: You don’t? SB: No. I have two friends now that I do a lot of outdoor things with. JB: Yes. SB: But sometimes they’re sick or I’m sick or whatever, and I’m looking for a group that does outdoor activities. I’m limited somewhat by my arthritis, but... JB: Right. So I will send you -- they have a website. SB: Oh my God. [I] can’t believe this. JB: [00:46:00] It’s for women. SB: It’s for women. JB: So, yes, there are lesbian and straight women that belong. SB: Wonderful. Wonderful. I guess my feeling -- well, this is not my interview. But I just want to say, I applaud what you’re doing. JB: Well, thank you. SB: I think it’s hard sometimes because, for good reason, lesbians don’t want to be involved with straight women. But on the other hand, let’s try to break down the barriers. JB: Yeah, it’s hard, but I feel [00:47:00] that it’s too restricting just to hang out with lesbians all the time. I mean, if lesbians are 20% of the population, then there’s a whole world out there. SB: Right. 20 �JB: I might say that it’s more that I’m anti-patriarchy, but I’m not anti-men in general. I have to see where they’re coming from, who they are, and decide whether I’ll be friends or not. [00:48:00] I don’t want to exclude them from [being] friends of mine, either. That’s where I’m coming from. At the same time, no man has ever come (laughs) to Stump Sprouts (laughter) for this weekend. There is a husband and wife that own the place. SB: Do you find it difficult to maintain your position? (laughter) JB: It depends on which... SB: Which position it is. (laughter) JB: In what situation you’re talking about. Oh, yes, I do. [00:49:00] I belong to a writing group, and I’m not out to them at all. I really like both these women. They’re straight women. But I come across as straight as I can with them. It’s hard to be out. And certainly when I was teaching, I was “in the closet,” so to speak. I was your intelligent tutor, but not your lesbian tutor. Let’s see here, Women Outdoors. SB: The writing group that you’re in, [00:50:00] you’re still not out to those women? JB: Right, right. And I like them a lot. What I write is not lesbian stuff. The characters are not lesbians or gay men. (laughs) SB: What kinds of things do you write? JB: I write fiction. I’m trying to get published in a literary magazine. (laughs) SB: That’s great. JB: I’ve been to Grub Street, which you know is this writing group in downtown Boston. [00:51:00] And I met a lot of characters there, characters that I put into my stories. So, I’ve been writing about them. I like Grub Street a lot. SB: Yeah. 21 �JB: I recommend Grub Street for fiction and nonfiction and memoir stuff. They’re good people. SB: I’m in a memoir-writing group out of Arlington Adult -- well, Community Education. JB: Okay. SB: And this is my third class with the same teacher, who’s very good. JB: Oh, good. SB: Yeah, I was looking around, and I just saw three places. I didn’t think of Grub Street at the time, and I thought of three different places, and this one was like the middle cost. JB: Okay. SB: And I just took a chance on it, [00:52:00] and it just worked out. Yeah. JB: Then I would go for it. SB: Yeah. But I’d like to try Grub Street for a class one time, anyway. JB: Mention my name. (laughs) SB: I will. JB: I wish that would get you something, but… (laughter) SB: So, would you say you’re pretty content with your life as it is now? JB: Well... SB: Is there anything that you would like to do that you’re not doing? JB: Well, that’s a good question. Yes, I would like to have even more friends than I do. [00:53:00] But, for the most part, I’m pretty content. And I would sure like to get published. (laughter) Here’s my list: I would like to be less achy in the morning getting up and a tad healthier than I am. But for the most part, with enough coffee, I think (laughter) I can be in good spirits. 22 �SB: Yes, yes. Is there anything else you would like to talk about [in] your life? [00:54:00] JB: Yes, because I kind of talked about wandering around from place to place. I want to talk about writing a little bit more. SB: Yes. JB: And one of the neat things -- let me go back to New York City. SB: Okay. JB: In New York, I met a woman in a gay bar, and we were involved for a couple of years, and I had always wanted to go camping. And so had she. SB: Oh, wonderful. JB: So she said, “We’ll talk to friends of mine,” and I said, “Well, we ought to read about it.” So, we put our two heads together and we came up with [00:55:00] what tent to get, what sleeping bag to get, and I began camping and hiking with her. And that added a whole extra dimension to my life. I just loved that. And I certainly camped and hiked when I came to Massachusetts. But I want to do that again. And I want to be not so achy getting up so I can do that again. Women Outdoors used to have a magazine, and I wrote up a ton of adventures that I had with another friend of mine, a straight woman who lives in Virginia. She and I did a lot of hiking in the west, so that’s also part of my story. We did a lot of hiking in the southwest. [00:56:00] Yeah, I want to do that some more. Some more, big time. SB: Yeah. Boy, I really hear you about that. I’ve got to get my knees straightened out. I’m not going to wait until I’m crippled and I’m on my last leg (laughter) to do it. JB: Right. SB: Because I want to have enough time left to really do some of these things. 23 �JB: Oh, for sure. Even close-by stuff. SB: Yes, exactly. JB: No, I miss it. I miss it a lot. SB: Yeah. But you still do things with Women Outdoors. JB: Oh, yes. SB: Good. JB: I think part of why I didn’t get [00:57:00] enough people for Stump Sprouts is that I hadn’t done enough with them this year, because I’d been so achy. That’s really hard. But, yes, I still do things with them. SB: Yes. Well I certainly hope that things get better. Are you doing any PT or anything? JB: Oh, yes. SB: Yeah, good. JB: I finally have a good doctor at Beth Israel. SB: Good. JB: And I’m getting another spinal injection, so that will help. Because last time, it worked really well, so it’ll happen again. SB: Good, good. That’s great. I know exactly what you’re talking about. From the moment I started camping… well, actually, I had a pretty bad experience my first time, and I told the person I was with, “I’m never going again.” [00:58:00] Famous last words. JB: (laughs) Really? SB: Because for the next 20 years, I went with him and another friend. We went out to the west, and [have] been all over the country. Oh, my God, I just feel so lucky that I did it when I did. 24 �JB: Oh, me too. And yes, I had a terrible first experience, too. (laughter) But it wasn’t enough to stop me from doing it again. I guess I saw that there was potential there, and to have Dulcie decide that she wanted to do it, too, that was something else. SB: Oh, that’s so wonderful that you were able to do it together. JB: Yeah. SB: So, did you say you wanted to talk more about your writing? [00:59:00] JB: Oh, yes. I want to say that some of my writing began when I wrote up -- Women Outdoors used to have a magazine. So I would write about my adventures with Marian in the southwest, or wherever, and I realized that there’s a limit to how long I can keep doing this. I couldn’t keep being in dangerous situations and come out in one piece. So I thought to myself, “You know, Joanne, maybe you’re going to write fiction.” (laughter) So, I went to Grub Street and took a course in fiction writing. [01:00:00] And then all these characters came to mind, and I kept writing, and writing, and writing. SB: That’s great. JB: So, that’s part of who I am. SB: Yeah. I know. It’s been a great interview. JB: (laughs) Well, good. I think people like to talk about themselves. SB: They do. (laughs) I’ve interviewed probably 600 to 700 people in my time. JB: Wow. SB: And I can count on one hand how many people said, “Ask me a question. I don’t know what to say.” [01:01:00] JB: Oh, my goodness. 25 �SB: And, of course, I had the master storyteller Tip O’Neill, and I asked him one question, and he was on a roll for two hours. JB: (laughs) Oh, boy. SB: So people do like to talk about themselves. JB: Did you do newspaper work? SB: Yeah, but it wasn’t anything like working for the Globe or anything. I worked on a little local newspaper, the North Cambridge News. It was in the ’90s. And what I liked to do was profile people, and that’s how I got into interviewing Tip O’Neill. Then from there, the editor of the paper said to me, “Why don’t you do an oral history project?” And I said, “What’s oral history?” (laughter) And he told me, and I said, “Well, that sounds good.” JB: Right. (phone rings) SB: So... [01:02:00] I kind of took it from there. I mean, it’s sort of a long story, but some other time. JB: (laughs) Okay. Do you want to get that? SB: No. JB: Okay. SB: Yeah. JB: You know, often, when I get phone calls during the day, I don’t know that I want to get [them] either, just because it’s often -- even though I’m on this “Do not call” list... SB: Oh, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t seem to matter anymore. You get all the scams and everything. JB: Yeah, yeah. 26 �SB: Should I shut this off? JB: Yeah, I think so. SB: Okay. JB: Yeah. END OF JOANNE B. FILE 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. B., Joanne Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joanne B., 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-10-15 Description An account of the resource Interview with Joanne B. for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource B., Joanne; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2d1c9ba296eb446da050f5e57976ad0d.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=JUfPh8jS9cgG0EDrOtneW-kAwinDznMsdKZw4iVusM27E5W9ni9MCvn4HXgD%7Ep1E6X8Dwc2EWQhOBuIUqUI%7EF7Y7tqxutxF2jblyDGUezR6y7GDSfcFDk1%7EBk6SbBkO2BscpM3UIbsHy8QsWFpO3OZOTWbDLHrMhpUVaiES5%7EmsqTCxIMWzdZl3bRlWT1JKzBSnS614KB9bZoFlXiR1N8njWT7a75IJoWanPs9w13XAsoyK6mpzUaxbJgJUA9TTrqF0DYAm33CMLoSMutmpUvIlgHMFHKfusLFGInJK4P5xpk8CuCK36Th3H7b4Ei1QDGdbiV5GgpYUcJ0RNzNurWQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1a57cea959263241188183a008391506 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/fa2b5704ad51a000080f5adb46715af0.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=BFuHXX9rTjR4HrGqJAxPBio8MdJDZVpjfUsYkMSdw%7EfGng7EgzW3uge4tF08LqZu6M5OmnAIdZgFLFXJ1bFpwn-w5q-EcJzqlgCu4lNNlA5s82hllFE5yrxP2Z8afffxL1pranxwqjPIWLnG7C8gQ4EmL8YUsSoUAOLCRv-9TriIjP1rpGaBbvJj0SJEN8LYmArjTABdEZUvGtqN8mQDq61TYafiXemuA6z8vYRkWpQKJdamwMxNXSkTlbYMfIk90NG8pDOPgnSR8ve8NlVyiyoJn2NjFJYPDvsObDDlF1CETPaav1pN2OMjzl9UAiUUBecwuKvaphX6vs5MmxNfuA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM d1abc0bdbdfa05dbe734514fb1909b9f https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/91b9b06dc8936800d246e65e1dc55bcf.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=P%7E6NaH4FyxKGrhCcK7sQV-dD%7EY5UdFROkDL0yrNlVc4mCIgO3l5E-6Ctfq0w%7EEPWqEMCxyIyqkSYkdofqj3cuNN2xST99TtJFeNdD7AtejZwSizq-88eTbVdLYbsDpJBYgdeoflkngUQwpMGNAK0mhsNKXOHSWXLNv7OUsTglvWPV0Ef%7Ewc9MqGJfrxzMep2cnTe9oBl4uUjkCEON5KuFxG-Gc9DJrFE3xhyKubT7Ra8M0AWBYbbriAowUEftpgQYQBGZG8tF9MOOmfyEweauXfP9USPyKr6Kg%7EjaVec8C646duCoaJqWbIhgVqmvsCqKIqVRBzw9uwGJVgyqAviUA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 6bbf140a107a099dd0b7cb923cc0ca24 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Barbara Webber Interviewers: Jamie Redgrave and Sarah Boyer Date: Circa 2016 1 �Beginning of Webber interview, Part 1 of 2 BARBARA WEBBER: Okay. SARAH BOYER: And what led you to come to DOB for the first time? What was that all about? BW: Forget dates because...let’s forget I’ll put them in later if you want. I took a workshop where I met...though I knew about Lois and Sheri. I had met Lois; we were in the same workshop in Cambridge, and that was one thing. Then I think she said that she needed help, and I happened to have had some group skills background, not therapy, just leading group skills, and somehow that...later I went to Lois and I said, “Well, can I help?” And exactly 24 hours later [00:01:00] I was running groups. And I was very pleased to both do service, to do service with my people. It seemed to work, and I happened to have a small skill set that helped. And it was just wonderful. So I remember doing three groups a week, which was a little bit much. I think Lois was carrying two or three, and Renee Shapiro, at one point, was carrying two or three. We were staggering under the load, but we then got more ... so it...that was a little hairy but I...so that’s...I just moved in and it seemed to fit. SB: So it had already been formed. BW: DOB was formed, it was an entity, and it was, I’m pretty sure [at] the OCBC -- Old Cambridge Baptist Church. Pretty sure. It could have just been in the transition time but -- so that -- I joined then [00:02:00] and went in, not with one foot, I can say that. Swallowed up. Jamie Redgrave: Do you remember what it felt like to walk in the door that first time that --? BW: Oh, that is a story we’ve told it a -- many, many people have told it. The person I had lunch with just said, “God, I remember those stairs, they went up forever.” (laughter) We had a song that somebody wrote that was sort of like “Glory, Glory, da-da-da-da-dee,” whatever that 2 �song was. She wrote a whole set of words about coming to the red door and going in. You know, many people have stories of driving around, driving around, and driving around, before they finally parked the car, crawled to the back of the church, went in the door, went up -- God, I can’t remember the story -- five flights of stairs and then went ringggg... (makes noise of the doorbell). (laughter) And yes, that’s -- does that answer your question? [00:03:00] I don’t know what I’m saying. It felt -- when I first went there, I was, I guess, going there to work. I became very fond -- the Old Cambridge Baptist Church, I became very fond of it, and who then would house us, and I felt very wonderful there. And the first room that we were in was so small that people were standing up -- this is factual -- standing on the radiators so people could sit between their legs, and they could sit on the steam radiator so that they could get a few more, and then they would be out the door and down the stairs, all the way down the stairs. And finally we went across the hall to another, bigger, much bigger room, but we were -- but literally blowing out the doors. SB: Wow, that just is so descriptive of that time. [00:04:00] BW: It felt just fine to me. Just great. SB: So tell us a little bit about the beginning of how you worked on these groups and what they were. BW: Well, again, these were not therapy groups, they were not AA, let’s say recovery AA groups; they were simply group gatherings and discussions and safe places to talk about anything: coming out, going in, just talking and realizing that we’re an incredibly diverse group we’re -- but we all shared some commonality. You’d see heads bobbing along, yeah, ‘I drove around the block, too, I’m terrified, literally, I have children.’ That’s what [00:05:00] -- the group was lively. We moved into age groups, we moved up the chain to 35-plus, I think to 50- 3 �plus, I can’t even remember. We had to split it by age because there were differences, but we did not split according to those just coming out [from] those out for a long time. It was more by age, and the older crowd just didn’t have a place. Now there’s tons of places but they didn’t--at the time--have a place. JR: So that was a conscious decision to not split according to how long you’d been out. BW: I’m not sure why; we just didn’t. I don’t remember that being... We had many decisions. [If] something happened of a negative nature in one group, we would be on the phone. I would be on the phone with Lois if her group followed mine on the next night. I’d say, “We have -appear to have a difficult personality showing up.” I [00:06:00] got through, but it may blow up in your…We passed on. I think the positive stuff we all knew. It was great. JR: So if there was a difficult personality you would let Lois know in case that person was coming the next night or --? BW: In case they were coming again. If Lois hadn’t run into... she would call me, Renee would call me. There were people, [who] we had to make it very clear [to] this was not therapy. All they needed was to be clear. In a very few cases we would get the name of a woman’s therapist, psychiatrist, and call. I -- Lois, we would call quietly and explain our difficulties and explain they’re very welcome, but we needed their help. And in two cases -- in one case I know that worked like a charm. Just understood this was a different environment, and we went through [00:07:00] the rules, like there were rules, and that worked. Otherwise we’d have difficult personalities [that could just come.] We could do most, but it would be mental health issues. And of course there was no no drinking. There wasn’t any kibosh but there was no... Another organization, OLE, [Older Lesbian Energy] was founded by people who didn’t wish drinking in a group, but this one, that 4 �was not talked about. I mean there were all... you know, you had women sitting there saying, “Well, what is a dyke?” Okay. A dyke is someone who wears farmer’s jeans and a checkered black and red flannel shirt. And I looked down at what I was wearing and I thought (I had just come from the office) ‘I don’t think so. (laughter) It’s not a uniform.’ (laughter) So we had to sort of quietly [00:08:00] get other people to talk, “I’d like you to,” but they were convinced so to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I don’t know that they may not -JR: So sort of stereotypes. BW: Yeah. Were strong of course if you’re the persecuted minority, you have some pretty strong stereotypes of your own. You might not know it, but boy, you do. And you had to do the same thing as you do in any group. The talkers had to be gently shushed, and the others gently brought forward. I personally had two or three occasions where I was just darn glad I had training. I was just darn glad -JR: You had training before you did this? BW: Yes, and again, I was very clear this was not therapy; this was running successful groups. It’s not doing any... And group dynamics are different, but this one I had somebody coming across the room to not kick, I don’t think, but to shake her fist to make her point, [00:09:00] and I shot out of my chair... JR: You or at somebody else? BW: At somebody else. And I was able to get out of my chair fast enough to just get between, just stand my body in between, and they all went back, and it wasn’t... I didn’t see fisticuffs, that’s not a woman’s usual route anyway, but it was like, boy, I’m glad I smelled it coming. And I got out of my chair quick, and onto others -- just explaining that this is not appropriate behavior in an... 5 �There was a woman who came with a gun. She came with a gun in a legitimate policing-like fashion. Seemed like a very nice woman... scared the living bejeepers out of us. So how do we deal with that? I don’t know. There was the drunk lying in the hallway... had to call the Cambridge police on that one. I just thought maybe this is it. He was very good with the guy who skittered out of there. But [00:10:00] that was just one of the small things. What else can I tell you about? JR: Well, you said you had training before so -- BW: Just a little bit of group training in the whole -- what was that movement -- I don’t know what you’d call it, they were all -JR: Like consciousness raising? BW: Well, it wasn’t consciousness raising, but it was in the area of consciousness raising. It was before Esalen got really going and the group up in Maine. [don’t know what this group was. SB] But there were a lot of structured groups that happened that were not therapy. And the trouble is it can attract people who think they are [in therapy], and you need to be quite careful... just know enough to know that you need to go get additional help for these people, know that they can’t function easily. JR: And you did that training before --? BW: To the best of my ability... SB: How long do... were you leading groups [00:11:00] in ...? BW: I don’t know. When was I not? (laughter) I guess it stopped at some point. We’d have to ask Lois; I don’t even know. It went up all the way to the end. We started... Toward the end we were losing enrollment in groups so we had less groups. I was glad. I mean, three was just too many, and two I pretty much did. I think we went, all of us...some of us, carried two and then 6 �three if somebody was sick. But coming from work...and I worked up in Haverhill, coming from work...Everybody was doing their own one of these, but you’d come in a snowstorm and you know, ‘Boy is this dumb; I’m going to have so much trouble leaving,’ but there was that sense of commitment to this and other women’s groups. We had to be open. Somebody’s going to come, and wouldn’t you know, that night I had a half a full house, people who were just marvelous, [00:12:00] two of whom this the first time they ever went. I knew this was right. (laughter) Yes. JR: So you felt that a lot, right? “I knew this was right.” BW: I knew this was right. You need to do the basics, just...you need to open up and be there and be kind. Provide the space and safe[ty]. I didn’t know at the time that it would [be called] a safe space. I do now; I didn’t then. It was. We did many other things other than that... SB: I was going to say...can you talk a little bit more about other things that you were involved in? BW: We always did a Thanksgiving dinner. Thanksgiving’s on a Thursday, so we usually probably had it on a Saturday [actually, it usually was on the Sunday before Thanksgiving SB] to ‘clean up the pieces of, you had to go with the family, and [00:13:00] make nice, and it’s a great strain. Now come be with your people and rest and relax and be thankful.’ It was an enormous undertaking. Okay, that’s in the basement. You’ve got to get the chairs out, you’ve got to wash the dishes beforehand because you don’t know when the church will ask to have the dinner, you’ve got to wash and dry them, get them ready, get all the tables set up, get the chairs out, which were under the stage, pull...Oh my God, I don’t know how we did it. Then after it’s over, we have to rewash all the dishes, the pots and pans. Turkeys were brought in from all over town; we didn’t cook the turkeys there. JR: Yeah, Lois talked about that. 7 �BW: Oh she always used to have fits. “Oh my God, what have you done!” (laughter) I don’t even know what you could get, but we managed it. Never, never, never put stuffing in the turkey. We can’t do that. [00:14:00] But we never had any trouble. We had a wonderful woman, after a while, who had worked in a nunnery...where? SB: A convent? BW: Or a convent or a boys’ place, where she was the cook. We used to handle it, but there’s a lot of people out here. Those are big pots (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). She came in…”Big pot, hell no. Get a bigger pot.” (laughter) She practically stood on a chair and [dumped peas] in that...I remember thinking is that all you cook for that many people? (laughter) And the peas just kept coming. (laughter) She thought nothing on the thing. Well, ask Lois. Her name was Mary; she was very nice. Hers was a contribution of skills; she could cook for huge groups. And it was fun. So you do the Thanksgiving dinner and everything that goes with it. You then do [00:15:00] ...coordinate the play. The play, or the performance, or the singing, or whatever you were doing... JR: BW: So that happened after the dinner? After the dinner you had this (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) chitchat. You did it after the dinner. At some point we decided to become wait staff because it was too hard to get everybody out. Tried to do it; it didn’t work out too well. SB: Some of the plays or performances -- do you remember any that come to mind that...? BW: I remember that...I think it was called the Dobtones sang and danced a couple... [spells out:] D-O-B-T-O-N-E-S 8 �and who was...? JR: Who was in that? BW: I can tell you but I’ve got to think a minute... [00:16:00] I was usually moderator, and I remember doing a line: “See Dick run, see Dick run, see Jane run.” We’d do little skits, and I don’t remember what the name of them were...the Dobtones, we’d do those, we’d do some singing. Sometimes there would be a whole play put on, and people would be dressed up for some pictures. Sorry, we moved; I can’t get at anything I have. People would [00:17:00] -- you know, [put on] the moustache and that hat if they needed to be the boy. Renee Shapiro was very thin and not looking very butch, which she ain’t (laughter)... with weights and looking very (inaudible) in her suspenders. But that was from some play. I’m sorry I don’t even remember now the plays. One of us... she left, but she was someone who could do plays. I’ve said, “No, any group can do a play.” So it went from her thing, and again...so the titles were maybe... We’ll try to remember...Then we had events. One event involved bringing... SB: Okay. (break in audio) End of Webber interview, Part 1 of 2 Beginning of Webber interview, Part 2 of 2 BW: So we would have... periodically we would have events, and [Lois Johnson] was wonderful. People loved her. And I noticed water coming in under the door, and somebody else 9 �noticed it. And she went on singing. And Lois caught my eye, and the two of us went through the door...this is on the basement level, this is in the winter; there’s water coming. So Lois and I opened the door, closed it, she went on playing, and we went up this little hallway...squish, squish, splash, splash. I said, “Lois, this is not looking good,” and she said, “I’m ahead of you, and I can see the problem. It’s pouring under that outside door.” It’s pouring under the outside door. It’s pouring. I...what we later learned, a drain had backed up, and it was going right down and in, there was no halting it. I mean literally we were drenched, and we went back and Denise, God bless her, said, [00:01:00] “I’ll go on playing.” And we said, “No, there’s electronic equipment around you.” We cancelled, and there was much grumbling, but Lois was right, safety first. So that was one of those God, who could believe...she still... Denise still sometimes refers to that. She said, “I’ll play.” She was a real girl so that was... JR: What did you do around -- Oh. SB: Go ahead. JR: I was just -- fun things, adventures that you can remember? BW: Oh, God, I can’t even remember. They did...they probably did some outdoor things, I didn’t do...it isn’t that I didn’t want to, it’s more like the dates that they had. And then they went for walks and bicycle rides. And they always ...the big thing was the announcement form; just a calendar that [you]wrote on one side, and there was writing on the other about the event. But there was... bicycle rides...what else? They probably had bingo night ...not bingo...probably card night, [00:02:00] [that] kind of thing. And after the groups...after we did a group, we often went down to the...what was...was it the Mug and Muffin? What was in Cambridge? SB: The Mug and Muffin, yeah, where you could sit there all night. 10 �BW: Yes, yes, you’re there all night, continue on, and it was ...I always felt very obligated, as did others to...Sometimes these women just wouldn’t tip, they ...just wouldn’t. So you would just throw down money because it just...we can’t come in here in a group and not do right, but not everybody felt that way. Different points of view. So the discussion would continue, and those were always great. You got home, and you were a little tired at work the next day. (laughter) SB: And two o’clock in the morning talking, right? BW: Well not...I probably did do 2 but mostly 11, 12; you really needed to get up early, you needed to get home. [00:03:00] Then I was trying to think the...it’s nonpolitical. So you would have to do some of your political stuff that...Lois created the thing, and it was very right to save the group, which later on wasn’t quite as necessary, but you know, no politics. That was to keep the thing together. Then maybe we could...I don’t know, I’m just as happy to keep...but you do...could do politics after, and you could exchange information on either a march or a dance or a whatever. DOB had dances. There was the OCBC. We had dances. And sometimes we advertised another group that asked us to, who would be in the OCBC and DOB would turn out, or we’d do our own dance. We had huge parties, huge parties, at Lois and Sheri’s house, [in the] South End. God, there was a saving act, to be in a home. You can’t beat it. You just can’t beat it. [00:04:00] You know, with your own judgement what fine, extraordinary people they are. I could not praise them more if I tried. They were in the tough days. They were worse even before them, but they picked up the banner when times were really tough and never stopped, never stopped. I just can’t praise them ...well, they really were phenomenal. They had their own beliefs, and they were strong...but okay, but I don’t care. They made it. And they opened their house to everybody. And it just...I 11 �can’t remember...did we not...we didn’t have alcohol at those functions I think...I can’t remember what we did. You wanted to keep everybody safe. JR: I think what she said was that they didn’t intend to, but sometimes people brought stuff. BW: Right, and they didn’t want that either... JR: At their house. BW: ...But they quietly let it...and some people brought it to be social, and it was just...asked to be put aside and please take it home. [00:05:00] You know, they had a brownstone that went up, up, and up, and up, and there were people on every floor. And at Christmas time there would be...we would sing, oh Lord. We had a good time. (laughter) It was really nice. Lots of people came just to the parties, the big parties, and then a smaller crowd did the rest of it. But that’s all I...I’d have to look at one of the calendars. I’m sure there were other...there were parties; the Christmas one was the big one, and to have it in the house was fabulous. JR: Were there any negative things that you can remember that sort of dampened things? Anything that you can recall? BW: Well, you know, [00:06:00] money was a problem, but I wouldn’t call that negative...I mean, that’s true of any nonprofit, so we always had to make sure there was enough money. And we did do things that you might consider fundraisers. There were some people they might or might not [have] called that negative. There were different personalities that...sometimes I found that a negative. I care what the personalities are; they would have viewpoints so you’re starting to have an internal schism. ‘I want to run for office,’ ‘no I want to run for office,’ And my person... (inaudible) I’ve done enough minor leadership roles in my career. I don’t give a rip if I’m -- (laughter) I’ll happy to be full core [?] in it, but I really didn’t care. Some people had never had a leadership position...Lois...I think we were all very good about helping people move 12 �ahead in offices. We had [00:07:00] very good librarians. We had one of the best, I think, lesbian libraries going because of... more than one, Lois can label them all, but more than one really competent librarian. They’d be given a budget, and they ordered the best and the finest. That was it. Really that was an extraordinary library. For a little bitty organization we had a powerful library. I think Schlesinger has...I think we gave it directly. Ask Lois but I think so. Now I don’t consider this a negative. I think when you have these little schisms, you also have lots of people, and clearly, one organization wasn’t going to work. Other organizations were there, or other organizations rose up. What we could tell people...what I could always tell but I’d say we all did...if you were...wanted to be of a particularly kind of political, radical voice, and there were many people in Cambridge who wanted that, I would strongly suggest [00:08:00] that you [they] try the groups at Cambridge Women’s Center, another truly fine organization, but [it] had a different slant and politics worked there. So please, ‘you might be more comfortable.’ ‘You’re welcome here but you might be more comfortable there.’ Some went back and forth. Then there were crowds who...what was the one...GPW. Gay Professional Women. Then there was one called Gay Professional Women that a certain group was probably most comfortable there. I kind of like a group you all [can] come [to]. I just prefer that; I’ve worked in community colleges, which says you all come. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SB: You remember Clear Space? (overlapping dialogue) 13 �BW: Yeah, the Clear Space; oh, we went nuts there. [It] was the only one that I personally know of that wasn’t focused on something like Gay Pride marching, [00:09:00] that were men and women together consciously. We tried...Clear Space was just a nice effort. JR: That was men and women together? BW: Yes, they tried to form a group. The men were very...were terrific. [We] tried very hard to attract women and did real well but it just...it didn’t float. SB: It didn’t float. BW: It didn’t last. Things like OLE, Older Lesbian Energy, I was very much part of that, too. They came along, and people were comfortable there. I don’t think they felt any tension, OLE versus DOB. I think they felt it...they served partially the same crowd; it’s just that OLE was meant for older...(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) older lesbians, but there was comfort because many people went to both. The GPW, the Gay Professional Women, made some people feel more comfortable and happier. OLE... JR: Was it a class thing do you think? BW: I think that’s class...Then, if you get the definition of gay [00:10:00] professionals. If you think you’re a professional, you are. I don’t care. If that...and that probably was the basis of it, but...and it meant more in houses in Lincoln or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Marblehead, or...but I don’t know, what do you want to say? I think some people were more comfortable there, but there was not intentional dislike of anything else. They said this felt more like home; maybe it felt more like the dormitory or...(laughter) I think...I don’t want to knock it because it certainly did a very good job. JR: Yeah, it was good to have all of these options, wasn’t it? 14 �BW: Yes, and it was nice. And then...to some extent after...I don’t [know] if you’d call it a schism, but some groups drifted in other directions; some people quit. I don’t know how I would [have] ever met...you know, this is a chance to [00:11:00] do service with two people who have made a big ...but it was a chance to hear 100,000 stories. If I’ve heard one coming out story, I’ve heard five million coming out...and if I’ve heard five million, Lois has heard 10. They’re endlessly fascinating. I don’t know how you feel about it, but they... JR: Oh, no, I do. BW: Endlessly fascinating. I just...I think of some of the people...I think, and I hope I did...You know you hope you did right. People...some people bothered me, and it was that their need was so high that you would...I found other people doing the same. You would give them your home telephone. “Please call me. Call me and let’s talk about this more,” or “Here’s the number [of a] woman who’s also married with kids your age.” We did have a group for mothers that talked about that because [00:12:00] even though this is one of the greatest states to be divorced in, in terms of not losing your children, no woman I ever knew wasn’t scared to death that they [would] lose...their children. And that was a very serious consideration. So there were groups more focused on that. We did groups where they...we’d called it [a] discussion group, but we’d invite people in. Once we invited...I don’t know...S&M I think is what the...things that weren’t as...now I say that as, “Eh, who cares.” But it was quite...you know, people, how...what does that mean? They were a smaller group, and they were willing to come talk to us. And I think that was very instructive. They explained how you were supposed to act with...what is it...When someone says “stop” it totally means...Here’s the signal to stop absolutely or whenever things that are [00:13:00] built in. But to some people, it was truly a completely unheard of 15 �thing; others were, like, “I’m curious.” So we went all the...I don’t know, I guess for DOB that was on the edge. (laughter) And we welcomed them, and I’d say we learned. JR: So this was a group of women that were interested in S&M, and they were coming to tell the entire DOB, here’s what we do. BW: Who wished to come. JR: And here’s the rules. BW: And here’s what it means, and here’s what the life is like. I mean, I don’t know, and I guess I would have to say [it was] lesbian S&M, though I never asked them. But I’m just saying that was a little off...that wasn’t usual. [There] would be more dances and. . . SB: There were proms, too, where people could...women could bring their partner; where when they were in high school or whatever they couldn’t bring the person that they really cared about. [00:14:00] Isn’t that right? BW: Right. It just...all sorts of...just all the learnings that had to go on of people who had suffered. And I sat there one night, and I watched someone get it. ‘I’m gay.’ You could see the lights go on. And the other part... unfortunate part of that, following the lights, then followed by euphoria. . . We’re talking about a mother with the station wagon, the suburban home, the three children, and the golden retriever, who was going home to announce, “Hi. I’m gay.” (laughter) And I thought...I actually went down the stairs, I grabbed her by the shoulder...I never do this ...and I said, “Could you wait just a minute? Let me... just a minute.” And I talked to her after to say, “I understand. I’m so glad you’ve found yourself, I’m so glad. Promise me you will do [00:15:00] nothing. Promise me you will tell nobody that’s not in this group. You come back to any one of these groups, and you talk your brains out. Please do nothing. And I think later she thanked me, but I thought... 16 �JR: Did she listen? She did. BW: Well, I don’t know. She...but it was a case of “uh-oh.” SB: Yeah, yeah, no, I can see what... BW: The most dramatic euphoria. We’ve all been there. Euphoria. It was like ‘I got it.’ (laughter) SB: I remember that feeling. (laughter) BW: Some people talk about getting the women’s concerts and all ... yes. (laughter) We thought ‘Woah, no. Woah.” (laughter) This very wonderful, wonderful woman. She probably would laugh her head off now...There’s always the things you go through in your head. ‘Can [I] have my husband, who’s a nice guy, [00:16:00] the nice home, and can I have my lover, too?’ (laughter) I mean basically that was the issue, and I just sort of remember thinking, well, after a certain point...let’s color it adultery here. I mean, we need to understand...this is a very nice guy apparently. I can’t tell you what to do, I certainly couldn’t, but please think through. But if you all can do it together, I’m fine. I know that it’s been done, but I just thought... SB: Very tricky. BW: Very tricky, yes. Again a case of perhaps talking with... the safest place to be is in our groups. You can talk about ...and you could be as straight as a stick, I don’t care. It’s safer with us than with a group of straights. Individual straights are nothing short of wonderful, [00:17:00] and there are all sorts of stories of people whose best friend dropped them off...who researched and found Old Cambridge Baptist Church...and say, (laughter) “In there.” What else can I tell you? JR: What do you think was the greatest contribution that DOB had to make to the lesbian community? 17 �BW: Being a safe place and being there. A place to gather. Safe. A place to gather and think and decide without censure, without people telling you what to do or not to do. But just a place where you could think about things that you probably couldn’t discuss elsewhere. And to gather strength from that. The corollary to that is the absolutely wonderful women and friendships you made. [00:18:00] And Lois and Sheri can tell you more stories than I can about how many people found their partner, but it’s just great. I have great friends from DOB, great friends, and the same thing with OLE, but that’s a separate organization. SB: When you look back can you think of other ways the DOB might have been more effective in reaching more lesbians? Or no? BW: I don’t know. As you well know, we’re not all the same. We ...could we have reached out to the younger group... SB: Especially at the end. The end times. BW: I honestly think [DOB] did an extraordinary job [00:19:00] in an era where there was...until there was more solid footing. I don’t know what else. I think it was the oldest running chapter of DOB in the country, sort of like an independent entity. There was a DOB, Daughters of Bilitis, was [founded] by Phyllis -SB: Phyllis Lyon and Del. BW: Yes. Martin. In California. And there was something like the Wishing Well, which was also the writing stuff that happened, too. And the ‘Stories of Salvation’ that they provided. They were the only act in the world. The men have some similar stories to us, and one guy said, “And why does he march?” He said, “I march so that guy in Vermont who’s going to kill himself can see that there’s hope.” He said, “I was that guy but I didn’t, I want to march for [00:20:00] all those guys out there.” And I thought, okay. 18 �JR: It gave you a purpose in your life, too. Right? A way of feeling like you were giving back to the community? BW: Oh, yes, that you were giving back. But of course anytime you give back you gain more than you ever...I mean, the friends, the times we had, we struggled, oh, Lordy. I once had to tell somebody that they couldn’t come. We finally decided that was the only way we could handle one issue. Oh boy. I mean, we all struggled: the money, the keeping it going, getting the bigger room. We had a therapist who used the offices and paid money to DOB to use the offices for her clients. She was...Marian Tredeau. She was genuinely marvelous, a marvelous human being, and had in her own personal life [00:21:00] gayness. She herself was not, didn’t matter what she wanted to give, and she wanted to have her office there so that in a way it was accessible. Totally separate from DOB, had to be, but it was a marvelous thing. JR: What was her name again? BW: Marian Tredeau, T-R-E-D-E-A-U. Her daughter probably is still in Vermont. She’s died since, but she was great. So I don’t...could we have changed? Of course, everybody could be better. I don’t see how we could have been political and kept the thing together. People who need to be political... we are totally dependent on the hot energy from those women that burned so hot, and they burned so hot because they have one goal only. Politics is above everything, and I’m going to go...and they get through the brick walls so the rest of us can follow. [00:22:00] Well, I’ve learned through life that I do better back here. I don’t mind being on the edge just trying to go over the edge and then through the wall. Personal relationships are more important to me than the cause. And that’s...you can’t really be effective and have that be true, I don’t think. Maybe so. I don’t know. JR: But you thought there was a place for the political, that it was necessary. 19 �BW: Oh, absolutely, we would never...absolutely. You just...I think that the ruling at first confused me, and then I thought how could we have made it? The thing shattered and blew apart. DOB did not. It was there. It trundled on. SB: And I remember an incident at the Women’s Center about letting a trans woman... BW: I don’t know why people got so angry. SB: ...into the Women’s Center and she was rejected, [00:23:00] and it was just wrong. BW: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Yes. I don’t know what’s...we ...oh, God forgive us for being... JR: Were the other DOBs also nonpolitical like this or was this a...? BW: I don’t know. I mean, they’re gone. I don’t know. They were long gone before we were. Maybe that was...I don’t know, but there were many chapters. And I’m pretty sure Wishing Well or that thing where you would write someone...but it only went to the editor, and she would then send it onto the person that you wanted to meet with. JR: Ah, so it was a way of communicating secretly. BW: Yes, and now the spinoff into other organizations like DOB was massive protection of your membership list. Massive. The things we went through, my God. JR: Do you [00:24:00] remember like what were some of those things? BW: Oh, well, I mean you had to...you couldn’t leave it lying around, you couldn’t leave it out. It was a little before the...totally before the computer era. Might’ve been. And how we got people on, I don’t remember. But we couldn’t leave it around, and you couldn’t share it with another organization; you couldn’t tell people who were on it, but it was very important. And then getting them...getting the labels on, and stamped, and then into the mail with it. And the people who did that newsletter every month put that... 20 �We’d have a business meeting, and then you’d create all the events, and then the newsletter had to go out along with the labels which came from the membership list. (laughter) But protecting that...I mean nowadays we all had...you probably have membership lists on your computer...you don’t think anything...you’re not sharing it with the world but it isn’t secret. JR: Yeah, I remember [00:25:00] Jeanne Córdova wrote in her autobiography, because she was the head of DOB in Los Angeles, about a police raid that had come to her office trying to get the membership list... BW: In the ’50s? JR: Yeah. BW: In the ’60s...’50s? Jr: Probably in the ’50s. BW: And so we can’t...all that...well it was legitimate, it was carried on, and you just had to protect...probably protect beyond... JR: So where did you keep it? Did you keep it in the office there, or did somebody take it home? BW: Oh, we didn’t keep it in the office. To my knowledge it was taken home and then probably under lock and key in somebody’s house. JR: Probably Lois. BW: Wasn’t mine. It wasn’t...I think Lois had it. Check with her, but I think Lois had it. But we had to...there was more focus on...And it wasn’t the only organization. Other lesbian organizations had to think, and you thought...In the early days, you thought about it a lot; in the later days it was much [00:26:00] less of a huge concern. 21 �JR: So things gradually got a little better. SB: Gradually got better. BW: People being out, I don’t know how to measure that with you because I think that the...Only a small percentage were out in the beginning, and then as we all grew, many more were out, and that impacts the membership list...who can be in the room when you’re discussing. I don’t know. All that stupid secrecy. JR: Personally, you said you came to this group because you met Lois at that workshop. BW: I happened to meet Lois at the workshop, yes, and... (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JR: And did you already know who you were at that time? BW: Yes, and I was...you can get yourself to know, you know all the stages, and then you’ve got to gather...then you’ve got to go forward. The only way I know to go forward was [00:27:00] just to go with groups, which makes sense to me because that’s how I think. She did it all in her head. JR: And was this workshop that you met Lois a part of that? BW: No, it was an independent. We paid, I think, a therapist and somebody else was running it or maybe two therapists. It was just a gay...no, we were all women; it was a lesbian-related workshop. And it went all...(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JR: So you were a lesbian already at that point? BW: I knew it, but what is being a...Now that I’ve become one of them what the hell does that mean? (laughter) I hadn’t ...Lois was quite clear...I hadn’t jumped all the hurdles yet. I mean, I knew that I was, but there’s another whole social integrated...another whole [00:28:00]...I think you become whole in a social setting. JR: So Lois said that to you at that time? 22 �BW: No, later. I think I called Lois a little later. I think. I called Lois, realizing who she was, and I think Ronnie Cunningham had mentioned her to me. And I just said, “Oh, you’re the head of it. Let me...and she said, as I said, I was working 24 hours later. Lois did not let...grass did not grow under her toes. (laughter) She has administrative skill. Amazing. And there’s a lot of souls in Boston that they picked up off the road and kept going, and they don’t talk about all of them. People needed help. Both Lois and Sheri, together or individually, just opened their doors and hearts to try to help. Amazing job. But that maybe is [00:29:00] the most critical thing. I think DOB had its time; it was essential. It is no longer. I think it did its duty and that’s...I remember one woman got some money from the death of either a parent or a family member, and she went right out and bought big huge poles that we could put a big sign on and march. She bought that equipment, (inaudible) styles, she did that, [Pat McCord?] and donated it. So we marched in style. SB: Do you remember...did you participate in Take Back the Night marches? BW: Not too many. In Cambridge but more of them were in Cambridge. I did not. No. I believed in it, and I supported it, but I was not there. [00:30:00] You were. Good for you. (laughter) Making a safe place. Fights still have to be won. I don’t know what comes out of DOB, I don’t know. Certainly the threads are in OLE, the 40-plus groups, because we used to call them by ages. 40-plus, 30, 30, 35, 40, 50. I don’t know if we got up to 60. We may have. JR: But there’s meetups now, you know? The over-40 and the Rally. I don’t think those are exactly the same, though. They’re more social. BW: Right. I can’t remember one of the over-40 groups, where I certainly was over 40 when I went. They were up in Newburyport and other environments. Really nice. I just went on a Sunday afternoon. Had a delightful time and then would come...go [00:31:00] on and do the rest 23 �of my Sunday. It wasn’t an organization that went on and on. It met I think once a month. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) What have I not answered that I might know? What can I do for you? SB: I think you’ve done...you’ve answered... BW: I think you’ll probably hear the same thing from everybody, I strongly suspect. JR: You know, everybody’s story is a little different, and memories are a little different, and it’s been wonderful hearing yours. SB: Yes, it’s been great hearing your story. BW: Well, I don’t know that I...I had actually written stuff down. I was trying to think, what on earth...? JR: Yeah, is there anything else that you remember that we didn’t ask you about? BW: If I could find...I had some -- and I thought well, I should go through the box. Well, having moved, I’m telling you, I...where the hell it went? (laughter) JR: If you find it, you can give us a call. BW: I will, sure. I think that...[00:32:00] in the progression of things, it was one. OLE has a story, and that should probably be written, but it’s different than DOB. Theirs is a different route. But again, out of California, it was because the people who started it had been [at] a social worker conference in California and just put a notice in at the conference: people who might be gay or whatever, you want to gather? The room was blowing out the door. (laughter) They were like, what? (laughter) Oh, okay. Well, they came back and started up here. Again, California to here, but it’s a different story. Might be that it...that’s it. End of Webber interview, Part 2 of 2 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Redgrave, Jamie; Boyer, Sarah Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Webber, Barbara Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barbara Webber, circa 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 2016 Description An account of the resource Interview with Barbara Webber for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Jamie Redgrave and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Webber, Barbara; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/6779f08ed054d5cdf8f509953759a0e4.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=mKyEjyHYIfktCEhayLQzxpyYsGnhefKrdzYPF-qtPrPkDEdFZOeYN-Bj0qp1j6QW6nyYlFF-DgyT0qVfSO4ehzYHQJeAvTeXzCtskMXGs8Edw88MCvhTgt33vX%7E1lY8%7EgkchR269SI9sJy0hdmmMPLZilOibMM7IJDJIyppATte3kdKGZuc4fnr1rcDhdnmViM42QM-oCbDjhlrUrwB65eASIqiAh5Px6hjCk-ThQEaiISO8JdFPcUj97Jbe2DgjlJHBGZ43T7JV0GR6EaPtdoYN4YmW20wr691CcryKniXSa3eKUYflP-yBi6VVYZM7txHv0XWwqN7Ks9CMmWZkHQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 0b9cdcf0bb432c4239dfe02da38a8954 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/aa195e246e8d3004c1a0e81c098addc3.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=pn1TVcfc1GgeVi6-kFpxV-KerFB6oKl6fi1rAjAWzTFm6okxnYIgRHNEe6sMpHinN9dOlSF-8LbDDOJ%7Er8SOSxj4Cg24BH52Alg4p4fEXCr-aoK3CF-%7ELD5mbP72r7GrhHmxIdqrsxCZ6ZuA163AGb5V5I8p0kl3bxlZ62Pxj4YYI3X4LfVzmIuw%7EVTnHsBpqcdhEAmG9N97zX5JFPYxWfn6T%7ECKuJPndh1vKznjoSM3CwhqAh3jeR6qeS4SL%7EC3tLwhYD2B%7Ex2-qCb5nQkRKnEwux-ihTUYVvSWpy88NO5ogJTkd6qq16E2kKXDeX44sh-jwmZdrqD-aILSytI1Fg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ae302c670420df2ffbd533eea146afbd PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Jzach Sullivan Interviewers: Sarah Boyer and Laura Catanzaro November 1, 2020 1 �This interview was conducted and recorded via Zoom with the technical help of Laura Pattison. At the time, the interviewee, Jzach Sullivan, was in Florida. Laura Catanzaro: Laura P. (Pattison) is on the phone with Lois Johnson. And she is going to try to walk her into this meeting. Now that it has begun and there’s the three of us here, four of us, really, with Laura, she’s going to see if she can get Lois on. And then she’s going to be around. But we can begin the meeting. And if Lois does come on, we’ll take a little intermission for meet and greet. But perhaps Sarah could lead us into this DOB interview. [00:09:00] SB: I will be happy to. Jzach, first I just want to say, thank you so much for your financial support of this project. I don't know what we would’ve done without it. I mean, we used the bulk of it to get transcripts of the interviews. And they’re usually pretty expensive. So that was, like, close to 25 transcripts we had to do. And some of them were very long. And I just want to say, I so appreciate your support with this project. I can’t tell you. And also for your willingness to do the interview. It’s just great. This is our first Zoom interview, so we’ll see what happens. So, to start, [00:10:00] could you just tell us a bit about your background? You know, like, where you were born? Where you grew up? What your family was like? JS: I was born and raised in Massachusetts. I grew up in a small town called Townsend and that’s in north -- I think we would call that north central. Fitchburg, Leominster, in that area. Both sides of my family have been in the Bay State since it began. I come from what they call “the royalty of New England,” you know, the Pilgrim people. [00:11:00] My ancestors were heavily involved in politics in Boston, being the governor and 1 �mayors, Dudley and Woodbridge, and all of that. I’m also a genealogist at this point in my life. We’re quite proud of our heritage and responsible. And that’s why Boston and the surrounding towns are so important to me. And organizations and people. And most especially in my life, women. My home life, growing up, wasn’t so special. I was the black sheep of the family. And became even more so after I divorced my husband and [00:12:00] threw him out of the house in 1978 and became a single parent. I went to college for the first time with two small sons that were five and seven. I was 27 years old. And I went to college on my GI Bill package from being in the Navy. I came out in 1978 and fell in love many times. [I] ended up leaving Massachusetts in 1979 to go live in wild and wonderful West Virginia. I followed a girlfriend there. I stayed there for five years and came back to Massachusetts [00:13:00] as fast as I could. That was in 1984, after a five-year absence. And that’s when I discovered DOB and Cambridge. I was living in Cambridge, up in Porter Square. I got the gay community newspaper and would see the lists of activities. That’s how I found DOB. When I returned in 1984, I didn’t really know any gay or lesbian people in Massachusetts at that time. I was more dedicated to taking care of my kids and [00:14:00] having a life and getting it back together. I had left West Virginia because I had a breakup that was kind of tough and I wanted to come back home. So then I discovered DOB. And here we are today. SB: Could we just go back a little bit? JS: Sure. SB: -- yeah. When you were in grade school or high school, did you feel that you were different in any way? You mentioned that you were the black sheep in the family. Can you expand on that a little bit? 2 �JS: Certainly. [00:15:00] When I was in the first grade, I fell in love with a redheaded, freckled girl. I won’t say her name because you know how that goes. I was just so smitten with this person. She’s six or seven years old, and she said she couldn’t be in love with me because I didn’t wear pants. That was 1957. What happened one day was, I wore a pair of pants under my dress and snuck out the door to get to school. In those days, you got in a lot [00:16:00] of trouble for doing such a thing. But for that moment with “Jane,” I thought this was the start of something good. That was my rationale as a child. Yes, I did feel that there was something very different. I did come from a very small town filled with Pilgrim descendants. My father was the kind of person that would throw rocks at people from his motor vehicle. When you see your father throwing rocks at women in their yards, calling them, “You goddamn lesbians,” and you’re just a little kid, you’re not very free to ever tell anybody. So that was a secret I kept for a very, very long time. I think [00:17:00] my mother was onto me for a long time. You know, I was an athlete in school, and I hated wearing dresses and skirts. I graduated from school in 1969, and girls were still not allowed to wear long pants to school when I was going. I really detested wearing girl clothes. There were a number of girls in my town when I was growing up that my mother didn’t want me to be alone with and to be playing with. And the funny thing is, every single one of those girls today is a lesbian. SB: No surprise. JS: And I was like [00:18:00] clueless when I found out some of them were. She only missed one girl. I will say she’s probably my best friend growing up and today. And 65 years later, we are still friends. We talk often. We kind of joke about that. But we were just friends, and our grandmothers were friends. But we never, never discussed the queer 3 �issue or being gay or homosexual as it was called for everyone in the ’60s. I found a book in my parents’ room when they were gone one day. It was written by a Dr. Morris Fishbein. And it described a homosexual woman as “someone with [00:19:00] longer arms than most women and more hair on their body.” And it described the whole thing as a sickness. Now, as a kid, to me being sick meant you felt physically sick. So in my child’s mind, trying to rationale being a homosexual, I didn’t feel sick. So I thought, “Must not be me.” I thought you were supposed to feel sick with this. I’m just a kid. So that was my rationale. So then we know what takes place in your mind. It’s called repression, and these things get squashed down. They stayed deeply buried in me for a very, very long time. I can tell you that [00:20:00] when I was married to my husband, every single argument and insult he threw at me when he was angry with me was, “What are you, some kind of a goddamn fucking dyke?” You know, I might be pregnant, and he would be talking to me this way. And I would be like “What the he--” you know? So that’s the kind of mental abuse that I had to put up with. Finally one day I listened to him, and that was the end of that. Like so many of the people that we know, the ’60s were not kind. Neither were the ’50s for many people. I mean, it doesn’t feel particularly kind in the 2020s. So that’s part of my background. SB: Right. I understand what you’re saying. [00:21:00] Could you tell me -- did you feel -was it that you felt the pressure to get married because it was all around you and you felt like you had to do it to be “normal?” Or what happened with that, if you don’t mind my asking. JS: No. So many people that know me and know my family and know about how I grew up go, “You know, you really should write a book, because you really come from a classic 4 �group of wackos.” I was 17 years old when a friend of mine that I was close to -- and she’s lesbian too -- introduced me to her cousin. And he was a big [00:22:00] boy. He was graduated from school. I was going to be a senior. And we kind of hit it off. He was not bad-looking when he was younger. And I thought, ‘He’s about 6’2” and looks kind of rugged and strong. Geez, if my father gives me any more trouble, maybe this one here can take a couple rounds out of him, you know? Be my protector.’ And I did what everybody else did in my family. Thank God I didn’t get married at 16 like some of them. But that’s what everybody else in my family did, and I just fell right into line with it. But it didn’t occur to me to think about any other kind of life. It really didn’t. I didn’t have a clue. I did what everyone else did. Got married. [00:23:00] And I stayed married for seven and a half years. I got married in 1970. I was in the military as was my husband at the time. I didn’t meet him in the service. He went in the service because he got drafted in ’68. I graduated from high school in ’69. I had taken a series of tests to join the United States Navy. I saw joining the Navy as my only way out of Townsend. I was going to get a bus ticket, and I was going to eventually be able to use the GI Bill to pay for a college education. My father told me [00:24:00] one time, point-blank to my face, that I was nothing but a stupid girl and he wasn’t going to waste his money on sending me to college. Off I went on an adventure. Eventually it paid off and I was able to go to school full-time as a result of having that experience. SB: How was that experience for you? JS: Well, it was eye-opening. I never got to live in a dormitory-style room with 70-plus women before. [00:25:00] There certainly was some tension amongst some of the young women. And I could see things that made me look a little closer as far as how close 5 �women could be, and certainly have a tremendous amount of passionate feelings. That was just the beginning. But here I was, engaged. So the repression was still working. I got through boot camp and went to aviation school to learn how to become a log bookkeeper. Eventually I got stationed in Quonset Point, Rhode Island. And [00:26:00] That was my first big military assignment. Mind you, I’m not even out of high school an entire year. And now I’m in the Navy and I’m at Quonset Point, and I am assigned to a barracks [with] very open rooms. There were cubicles, and I had a roommate. This particular roommate -- a nice young gal -- was from Vermont. She was glad that she had another New Englander for her roommate, because everybody else was from all these crazy states. Some of us Northern girls didn’t quite know how to deal with the Southern mentality at that time. We were just kids. So she was like, [00:27:00] “Yay, we’re from New England. We can speak the same language.” Back in those days, we had to be 21 to drink. We were all underage, but it didn’t stop us from drinking. The Vietnam War was going on. We were seeing horrible things, and we were drinking a lot. She (my roommate) said, “Let’s go out and sit in my car.” Her car was the size of a washing machine. It was one of those little old foreign cars. I think you could only put two people in this car. So she says, “Let’s go out to my car and drink.” I said, “Fine. Let’s do that.” We were drinking a bottle of vodka, straight. I’m in the front seat. She’s in the back seat. Because that’s where we could fit. We were getting [00:28:00] pretty plastered. Next thing I know, she’s got my jacket by the back, and she’s trying to haul me into the back seat with her. That was totally eye-opening for me. And I was like, “What the heck?” And I said, “I think we better get out of the car and get inside before anybody sees [us] or we get in trouble.” So we stagger off into our room and we never said another word 6 �about that. That was March of 1970. I ended up getting married in July of 1970. Just before I got married, my roommate had been going to Fort Devens in Ayer, Massachusetts. [00:29:00] There was an Army base there. She had made some friends with some WACS. She got involved with some gals up there. She ended up coming back to the barracks in Rhode Island one time telling me she had feelings for me. It got a little sticky. We had witch hunts in those days in the military, and they caught on to her. What a stinking nightmare. I wished I had not been involved in that part. SB: What happened? JS: Oh, they ended up throwing her out. She also tried to commit suicide one night. LC: Let me interrupt just one minute, I think we have Lois [00:30:00] on the phone. LOIS JOHNSON: I’m here. LC: There she is. SB: There she is. LC: She’s here. SB: Lois. LJ: Hello, hello. LC: Lois, hold tight. Let Jzach finish her thought. And then I will continue the interview and then you can jump in whenever you want after that. Does that sound good? LJ: Okay. What I have to do is get myself into the bedroom. Because I just want to be quiet and I want (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LC: No, no, no. I want you in here. LJ: Oh, okay. Fine. Okay. Here I am. Yeah. What can I do [next?]. 7 �LC: Okay. Continue. [Jzach,] you may want to say a few words to Lois, but continue -- your thought, which was really amazing, what you were just saying. LJ: [Was that on?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). We’re just audio. JS: You want me to go ahead? SB: Yes, go ahead, Jzach. JS: All right. So, [00:31:00] what ended up happening to my roommate, she tried to commit suicide one night. She came into the room, and I had to stay with her and keep her up and moving because she was trying to overdose. We couldn’t tell anybody above us because it would’ve just complicated things even further for her. She was having a hard time dealing with being who she was and her feelings [for] me and at that time, I just couldn’t return those types of feelings. It was a big mess all the way around. Eventually she was discharged from the service. [00:32:00] I got married in July, and I had all this to think about. I wouldn’t tell my family. I wouldn’t talk about those kinds of things. As a matter of fact, I didn’t even talk about it to the guy I was going to marry. Never. Never did I ever talk about that with him. Eventually, in the fall, I ended up getting out of the Navy, in October of 1970, because I was expecting a child. That became the end of my military service because in 1970, any woman who was pregnant had to leave the service. It’s not like it is today. You can be in the service. You don’t even need to be married. You can still [00:33:00] have your kids. It was a difficult period. LJ: Sounds like it was really difficult. JS: I’ve tried every way I know, and I’m good at tracking people down and finding them. I have not been able to locate her yet to see what happened 50-something years later. But I’m not giving up yet. Still trying. 8 �LJ: What’s her name? JS: So how are you, Lois? LJ: I’m well after I get through trying to get on so that I could hear your voice at least, Jzach. And I wish that I was on video -- JS: All right. I can hear you. LJ: But it will be okay, you know? We hope. [00:34:00] Yeah. What was the name of the woman? That you were talking about. JS: Her name was [Donna]. LJ: Donna. Donna. JS: I’m not going to say her last name. SB: That’s a good idea. LJ: Oh, no, no. No, no. I know it’s private information. JS: No, her name was Donna. (inaudible) I don't know what happened. But she was a good, good kid. It was just the ’60s, ’70s, and it wasn’t the right time. Wasn’t the right time. Such a shame. SB: Jzach, did you have, at that time, did you have feelings for women and you just repressed them? Or did you just separate everything and say, “Just going to get married. [00:35:00] That’s over.” JS: I think there were definitely feelings there. I certainly used to wonder about the two women that lived in my little hometown that were known to be lesbians. One of them was a nurse. They were the ones that my father would drive by their house and scream names and throw rocks from his truck. My first job while I was in high school was 9 �working at a supermarket. I have to tell you, it was pretty exciting when those girls came to my register. Because it was like, “Oh” -LJ: I can imagine. JS: -- “so that’s what they look like.” Wow. I was like, “This is what, mmm.” But, you know, then you go home to a very depressing [00:36:00] situation, and the repression just takes over and just buried all of that. But I certainly knew what a couple of lesbians look like. But, still, there weren’t any other role models to want to grow up to run off and get your first kiss from. But what’s really kind of comical is, when I was in high school I thought for a while I’d love to be a gym teacher because, why not? Of course the mentality in my home was, any woman who was a gym teacher had to be a lesbian. I could hear my parents talking about that. One of my gym teachers ended up getting married and having five kids. The one that would give me a ride home after softball sometimes. My [00:37:00] mother would be furious that this teacher gave me a ride home, and I was clueless. I will use this woman’s name. Her name was Louise Nutt. When I graduated [in] 1969, she said to me, just before graduation, “After you graduate, I want you to come to my house. I want to talk to you.” So late that night after we graduated, I got a friend to drive me to Louise Nutt’s house. And I had a six-pack of tall Budweiser. It was very late, and Louise was asleep, so I left Louise the six-pack of tall ones and talked to her a few days later. She said, “Yeah, it was really late and I went to bed and didn’t hear you [00:38:00] knocking on the door.” Well, that was a shame for me. Because years later, after I was divorced with two little kids, she had a talk with me. She said, “I saw something in you. Because you were underage I couldn’t talk to you. It would be too much trouble. It was too dangerous. But I wanted to talk to you because I 10 �saw something in you that you should’ve known about.” I said, “Yeah, I know what you're talking about.” She said, “It was too dangerous, and that’s why I waited.” I was 18 when I graduated from high school. She said, “You were then of age and nobody could’ve done anything.” If I had had that talk with Louise, I believe [00:39:00] my life would’ve been much, much different. SB: In terms of -- JS: Because I did really like her. Well, if I had had somebody talk to me honestly about life and sexuality, it could’ve been a big turning point. LJ: I’m going in the other room. Because I want to listen. LC: Wait a minute. I’m going to mute Lois for a second. Okay. Go ahead (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Jzach. SB: Lois, do you want to ask a question, or do you want to -- LC: Lois is muted right now, so [00:40:00] let’s go on a little bit and then ask that again. SB: Okay. Okay. So, we’re up to your marriage. And you said you were married about seven and a half years. JS: Yes. Seven and a half years. Yeah. SB: And what got you out of the marriage? How did you do that? What was the process? JS: It was a mess. Come to find out, I came from a home where there was a tremendous amount of physical abuse. My brother and I suffered greatly at the hands of my father. So I went from the fire to another fire. [00:41:00] My ex-husband was also a batterer. I had gotten out of the service [and] had a child in May of 1971. A year later, my husband was still in the military. He was in the Navy, and we ended up having to go live in California for a Navy base assignment. It’s there where he became a physically abusive 11 �person. He was in the submarine service, so up until a certain point, our marriage was pretty good because he was gone at least six months out of the year. So it was perfect, you know? He would be gone three months, in three months, that kind of a thing. So [00:42:00] he was really never around, so no big deal. It’s when he was around all the time that things got nasty. There was a time in 1973 [when] he physically abused me and put me in the hospital, and I lost a baby. I stayed in the marriage. I came from a family [where] physical abuse and divorce was. . .[inaudible] So I had no one that I could call. I couldn’t call my father. I couldn’t call my mother. I was stuck. I was 3,500 miles from Massachusetts, so I stayed. [00:43:00] The physical abuse continued throughout the seven and a half years. Finally he scared me because he told me I could have an accident and fall down the stairs, and no one would be none the wiser. I didn’t tell too many people about the kind of crap that was going on in my home. He ended up denying ever abusing me and putting me in the hospital with a miscarriage. It took me months after he said that to save up a little bit of money and wait for the right opportunity [00:44:00] to safely say I wanted a divorce. In the spring of 1978, finally that happened for me. What had happened was, I had developed an interest in photography. I went to work packing fish in Gloucester, Massachusetts, to be able to save up enough money to buy the camera that I wanted. My ex-husband would say, “I’ll buy you the camera; I’ll do that.” I was like, “No, it’s going to cost about $1200. I don't want to take that out of the house money. [00:45:00] I’ll go to work, and I’ll earn the money and buy it myself.” And that’s what I did. I took the extra money that I made and I started putting myself through workshops, adult education, to learn how to become a photographer and do darkroom work. He used to say to me, “Well, I can do this. I can teach you how to do that.” I was like, “Nope. I 12 �want to do this on my own.” He would get very upset with me, but I was so determined to learn how to do this by myself, on my own, with no help from him. This was something I could do. I think about this, it’s so crazy. I went to a professional workshop up in Essex, Mass. It was run by a man named Stephan Gersh who had at one time been an assistant to Ansel Adams. It was called the [00:46:00] Essex Photographic Workshop. Do you remember the Boston Globe? They had a photographer by the name of Ulrike Welsch. She comes from Marblehead. I took a photojournalist workshop with her, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Ulrike is one of the girls. I had such an incredible time being with these people. The workshop was going to be offering a program where they were going to take a group of photographers to Nova Scotia for a few days, and they were going to hang out with the fishing village people and do some documenting photographically. On Easter Sunday in 1978, I came home from a church service with my kids and my sister [00:47:00] -- I had a little sister living with me -- and I said to my husband, “Someday when the kids are grown up, and we can afford it, I would like to have the opportunity to go do something like that.” He flew into a rage. and said our marriage was a joke and a farce. If I could do something like that, then he could go to South America and go scuba diving. I’m thinking, “Yeah, please. Jump into the fucking river and get eaten by piranhas. I'd love it.” I said, “You know what, Keith? You’re absolutely right. We’re 27 years old. Why don’t we get a divorce and live our own lives, if you’re so [00:48:00] unhappy and I’m unhappy. That way there, we’re young. You can find someone else to enjoy life with and do whatever you want to do. And that will be that.” He’s like, “Fine. Fine. That’s good.” I was like, “Yay!” That was Easter. I was like, “Oh, that was so easy,” you know? I didn’t get punched. I didn’t get anything thrown at me. I didn’t get 13 �trashed. I was like, “Boy, I should’ve done this earlier.” But day after day after day, I was waiting for him to pack his bag and leave. Finally, I came in one day with the kids, and he’s reading the newspaper. I said, “Have you found a place to go live yet?” He puts the paper [down], and he looks at me. [00:49:00] He said, “What are you talking about?” I said, “Have you found a place to go live yet?” He said, “Why would I want to do that?” I said, “Well, we had that conversation on Easter about getting a divorce. I was serious. Why do you think I’ve been sleeping on the couch all this time? I want you to leave.” [He said,] “What are you talking about?” I said, “I want a divorce. You’ve got to leave, and you’ve got to leave soon, because if you don’t, I’m going to find a way to legally get your ass out of here. I want a divorce.” So he left on Mother’s Day. Finally. Like, ugly. He was so beside himself. He thought I was kidding. fFnally, on Mother’s Day [00:50:00] of 1978, I was liberated. SB: Can I just say, you have such strength. You’re such a strong person. JS: Well, I got to tell you, at the time, I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. But, thank you. There’s so many of us that have had to do that. You know? Look, I didn’t care how stinking poor I was going to be. I wanted him out of my life. I just wanted him to be gone. I just needed to be set free. SB: So did you move down [00:51:00] to Cambridge pretty soon after that, or did you stay where you were? JS: Oh, no. I stayed in Gloucester for a short time. And I have to tell you, coming out was the last thing I ever had on my mind. I just didn’t want to be a punching bag anymore. Being a queer was not anything in my brain. I just wanted that guy out of my life. Gone. It didn’t matter to me that I was going to figure out how to go to work, or how to go to 14 �school, or that I wasn’t going to have money, or I would have to apply for welfare. I just wanted him gone. If he wasn’t going to drop dead, I just wanted him gone. He had to leave. It [got] really tough [00:52:00] after that. I have to tell you, it really truly was not a plan to come out or find out what being gay was all about. Not one thing to do with it. There must have been a Goddess that was watching out for me. This sounds like such a corny story. I was not only coaching a young girls’ softball team for the City of Gloucester in a league, but I played adult women’s industrial league softball with a bunch of other married girls. There were, I found out later on, a lot of lesbians. What I would [00:53:00] have to do is go coach the little kids, play their games, and then run over to an adult field and play my games after. So anybody here play softball? You get kind of possessive about where you stand in the field and your position is like yours. I didn’t care about that kind of stuff. I just wanted to have fun. I would go to these adult games, late, and my friends would say, “There’s a new girl on the team, and she’s out in your position.” I would be like, “Huh. So?” “Well, that’s where you belong.” The girl that was taking my position came every time with another woman. [00:54:00] I started watching those two women -- how they walked together, how close they were together. And they always left together. We needed to have softball meetings, club meetings, and I would go over to these two women -- they lived together in another part of Gloucester. I went to their house with a bunch of other gals. I stayed after the meeting one time. We had been having a chat. We’re sitting in the living room of their home, drinking wine. Lesbians. We just [00:55:00] started having a casual conversation about my impending divorce and how life was changing and life in general. When out of the clear blue, one of the girls says to me, “So. Are you a lesbian?” Just like that. I just sat there like a deer in 15 �the headlights. I looked at the both of them, back and forth a couple of times, and I said, “Yes, I am. [00:56:00] “Yes, I am.” They were like, “Here’s some music you can listen to.” You know, they gave me all the queer al-- you know, all the lesbian albums we had at the time. I think there were four. Back in 1978 (inaudible), how many lesbian albums were there? Well, there was Meg Christian, [Alix Dobkin] -SB: Chris Williamson. JS: “Here’s all the music. Oh, and take all of these books.” All the books there were. Maybe there were five books on being a lesbian at that time. “Here. Take all of this stuff. And here’s some gay community newspapers.” I had to put [them] in a bag and take [them] back home. That was my indoctrination. A couple of weeks later, they were like, “We’re going into ‘town’ [00:57:00] tonight. We’re going to go out dancing.” That’s when they took me to Somewhere Else for the first time. I got to go to this bar and see nothing but women in there, and a dance floor with nothing but women dancing. I was just thunderstruck, you know? And that was that. Well, it got a little more interesting, [but] I’m not going to discuss [that] here. Those two women, they thoroughly indoctrinated me into the ways of the lesbian. It was a full moon. [00:58:00] More wine. It was lovely. Yeah, but they made a monster. They just left me with a thing afterwards where I always got in trouble when I was going out and carousing when I was younger. I thought you had to pick up two women at a time. (laughter) That’s okay. I thought (inaudible). I thought it was like a couple. But it was funny as hell. Oh, boy.But I still have contact with one of those women today. She’s 78. I’m not going to be 70 until November. I’m still a young thing. [00:59:00] It’s been a wonderful career. In 1979 I moved to West Virginia, lived 16 �for five years with a girlfriend there and came back a college graduate. I moved to the Cambridge area in 1984. SB: Right. And that’s when you said you got in touch with DOB. JS: Yes. SB: And [01:00:00] can you describe your first experience going to a meeting? JS: I found DOB [in] June of [01:01:00] 1984. Let me just backtrack just a short time. When I was in West Virginia, I had a girlfriend. Not the one that I originally moved down there to be with. Whenever we would have difficulties in our relationship, I used to say to her, “You know, this is really frustrating. We don't know how to deal with some of these issues or talk to each other. There’s no place that we can go for counseling.” There wasn’t anything. When I was married to my husband, we could go to a marriage counselor. Straight people had all the advantages. They had places that could be supportive and try to help them sort out any difficulties, [give] some guidance. Or if you were lucky and you had a decent family, you could ask [01:02:00] somebody in your family for help. Well, I found that gay and lesbian people -- and especially when I was living in West Virginia, -- there was no organization. We had bars. That’s all there was. Nothing else. You couldn’t go to a church. That I felt was always a big issue in the community. So now I come back to Massachusetts, and I think that was like the start of when people became organized. You had gay teachers being organized. You had gay and lesbian lawyers with organizations. We had DOB which was getting more -- it didn’t have to be quite as closeted as when they originally started out and being secretive about where they were meeting. It was just on the cusp of being [01:03:00] more out and more open. I thought, “Wow, this is really terrific. I can go talk to a bunch of other women. I’ll 17 �be able to hear them speak. It won’t be dark. There won’t be any alcohol and no cigarette smoke. This is like going to Heaven.” It was perfect. And you could go out to eat afterwards to Mr. Bartley’s Burger or down to Harvard Square and get pizza. This is perfect. Everybody loves to eat at DOB. So it was just really wonderful to meet with a wide range of people with all the lights on and just talk about -- it depended on the evening when you went there what you might have for a discussion group. So that to me was a terrific welcome home present, to be able to go and meet all these women, meet [Sheri] and Lois, [01:04:00] and it was just a new experience. Here I’d been out for what, ’78 to, not that long. That was the beginning of a whole new era for me. I got more and more involved with DOB, and I became what they called a “rap leader.” I can’t even remember what night of the week was mine. We had more of an open forum discussion [where] people could come and meet. We always had a crowd at those meetings, no matter what the topic. You always had friends around from week to week. We did outings. We played softball. We ate a lot. [01:05:00] We had parties. It was really nice. It was particularly nice that it didn’t involve the bar scene, and that your circle of friends became much wider. It was amazing. When I first started going there, I was 33 years old. And Lois and Sheri, they were like in their early 50s. They were young. It was a lot of fun. [I] made a lot of good friends, and I’m in touch with many of the women that I met back in 1984 and continue with the friendship right up until now. [01:06:00] SB: That’s wonderful. That’s great. JS: It sure is. It really is. That’s how I first started getting involved. SB: Now, how did you bring your photography into DOB? I mean, did you just start taking photographs for different events? 18 �JS: Well, I have to tell you. It’s really funny. I started getting interested in photography in like 1975, 1976. Once I developed that [01:07:00] pure interest in taking photos, I’d never go anywhere without a camera. Everybody knew me. It was like, “Oh, do you have to bring that camera bag everywhere you go?” “Yes, I do. Yes, I do.” I have a degree in journalism, and I did my work as a photojournalist. One of the other things that happened when I came back from West Virginia was, I had to unpack the moving truck all day on a Saturday. It happened to be Gay Pride Day in Boston. When I was [01:08:00] unloading the truck, my brother-in-law, who is a friend of mine, said, “Oh, your people had their party today.” I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “Your people had their party.” I’m like, “What do you mean?” He goes, “It was Gay Pride in Boston today.” I’m like, “Really? I missed it?” That would’ve been my first Gay Pride thing. So I was like, “Oh, bummer.” Well, as soon as that Gay Pride Committee had their first meeting after the parade, I was there for that meeting. I said to them, “Do you have a photographer on staff? Do you have anybody documenting this?” They were like, “Who are you? No, we don't have that kind of a budget for anything.” [01:09:00] Back in those days, it was like a dozen, if that many people showed up to be the Gay Pride Committee, and if you had a credit card, you were on the committee because they were going to tap you. We had no money. We had no sponsorship. I said, “I tell you what I’ll do. I’ll join your Gay Pride Committee, but I’m going to be your photographer. I will buy all the film. I will take care of everything. All the images are going to be mine. But you can use them whenever you want. But this needs to be documented. This is a big thing.” They were like, “Okay. You can do that.” And that’s what I did from 1985, my first Gay Pride parade, up until 1992. I got involved with many gay and lesbian organizations. I did the New England Names Project. [The New England Names Project...was once centered in Boston. But at one time the group would meet and put together quilts for those 19 �who had died from AIDS. Also they planned events for displaying the Quilt at colleges, churches, etc all around New England. It was a mixed group of friends, lovers, parents, assorted relatives and caring people who wanted to memorialize dear souls who had passed.] [01:10:00] I photographed for the leather community in Boston, men’s and women’s. Did the AIDS Walk. I documented anything. A big demonstration for ACT UP; I would go to demonstrations. Just like Ellen Shub was a lesbian photographer and Marilyn Humphries. They were documenting it. And back in those days, you’d only see three women photographing all the time: Ellen, Marilyn, and me. Anything that involved gay and lesbian people, I was going to take pictures of it. When we were growing up as kids, what did we have for images to look at? Nothing. There were no photos. I felt that it was important to [01:11:00] record this history so other young people could see it. Of course, who would’ve dreamed that cell phones were going to have cameras attached to them and that for the rest of our lives nothing on this earth was going to go undocumented. Nothing. [You can’t] sneeze or pick your nose anymore without somebody taking a picture and putting it on social media. So to me, being at DOB and photographing the dances and softball and parties at Lois and Sheri’s house, that just came under my umbrella of documenting what I considered [01:12:00] to be history. And it is now history. I was just very driven to record whatever I saw for the gay and lesbian community. Now I have tens of thousands of images of things that I shot. [I] have been talking with the Boston History -- the gay and lesbian history museum -SB: Yeah. The History Project. 20 �JS: Because when I get to that point in life when I can let them go, they’re going to get everything that I ever shot. [01:13:00] Certainly DOB can have the images that I shot for their history archives. But the Boston group is where I want all my things to go. LC: I’m wondering if we might have a selected version, like let’s call it a slim coffee table tome, any DOB pictures. I think we already have a few of them. But any DOB pictures, black and white or color, that are your favorites, plain and simple. Your favorites. And then [01:14:00] we would put them on with the other pictures that we have. And if you know who the people are in those pictures, that would be very useful. We have pictures, and we don’t always know who’s who. JS: Yeah, I can do that. Well, if you can at that point, if you can tell me when you think you have a date in mind for doing that so I can get my stuff organized. Because here I am in Florida. I only have my laptop with me. I have a bigger computer setup in New York with everything that I’ve scanned, and it’s there. So I’m thinking I’m going to have to have my computer box, whatever they call it, shipped down to me so I can attach it to a monitor so I can do the rest of my photo work. [01:15:00] I packed lightly because I wasn’t expecting to be here. And it’s so hard for me to be separated from my other photographic stuff for so long. But I would certainly be happy to supply some images. They cover dances and concerts that DOB would put on. And the girls sitting at tables at Gay Pride on the Common. All kinds of things that we used to do together. Pictures of Lois and Sheri at their home. I consider it a very important body of work historically, everything that I captured. JS: I have -- you can go on Facebook --You can look at them on -- I don't have a website. I have a artist’s, what we call an artist’s page on Facebook. And Laura, if you were to look 21 �at -- it’s called, three words, “Gay Pride Photographer.” If you put that in the search bar on Facebook, “Gay Pride Photographer,” [01:17:00] that’s going to be some of the work that I’ve created. It’s not everything, but it’s a lot. “Gay Pride Photographer.” LC: You only make haste slowly in terms of our lifetimes. But I don't think in this COVID era you have to say, “Oh, my God, I got to do this.” If you have to get your CPU, your hard drive, for other reasons, by all means. Or you really want to, for this reason. It’s not like we have to have the pictures. In fact we don’t have to have anything physical. We could have something digital because it’s going to probably go online via this channel of the History Project. [01:18:00] Once we get all the interviews done and the book completed. Everything has slowed down, needless to say, because of COVID. I think the main thing is to take advantage of this time as best we can to do what we love in it, and not just what we have to. SB: I’m putting together, with Lois -- we’re putting together the narrative for the book. So that’s what we’re doing right now. So Jzach, I had a couple more questions for you, okay? JS: All right. All right. Go ahead. SB: Yeah. How did it affect your life, do you think, being in DOB? JS: How did it affect my life? [01:19:00] SB: I mean, in the long term. How do you feel about the experience of being in DOB? JS: Well, considering the number of women that I am still in touch with today that I met at DOB starting back in 1984, that they are still in my life or I still correspond with them in some fashion, that we have remained friends for this long a period of time and haven’t lost touch with one another, to me is very important. I know more about those friends 22 �and talked to them more than I do my own family. My blood family. They are a family, and I need that sort of longevity in friendships. [01:20:00] It, to me, is very critical. It was a wide range of people that were involved at DOB. You had working class women. You had women that were college-educated, in all professions. To have that sort of mix of people as friends, that’s also something that’s very important to me. We were politically connected. They were caring. There were some times when my boys were having some trouble with schoolwork, and one of my friends from DOB [01:21:00] had a degree in mathematics. She said to me, “Oh, your kids are having trouble with math? I’ll come over.” So they had like a private tutor come over and explain complicated math. That was a good thing. It’s about the long-lasting friendships that were made. There were some things that we went through with some of our friends that were difficult times. Women becoming ill. Women committing suicide. We had to deal with things as a group of friends. [We] got more support from those people than our own families. [01:22:00] And we had a lot of fun together. We used to put on the DOB Thanksgiving dinner. What a blast that used to be. Sometimes that was the only big celebration some of us were going to have as a big holiday. I had two boys, and they were always welcome in that group. That was important to me, and it was important to them. And here we are all these years later. I ended up talking to Lois about this project and, she mentioned that it was very costly. [01:23:00] My partner and I decided together that we would back the whole thing because that’s the kind of impact it had on my life. When I moved back in 1984, I was coming out of a very difficult breakup. DOB offered me a new community and some emotional and mental support [so] that I didn’t feel alone. For going through a breakup or not having a family that I could count on, there was DOB. [01:24:00] They 23 �offered a wide range of support. For some of us, it came at critical times in our lives. It had a long-lasting effect on me. When I figured I could do something to pay back, I [did]. It’s important. This history shouldn’t be forgotten. It really shouldn’t. SB: And it won’t be, in large part, thank you -- thanks to you. It won’t be. JS: Barbara Mitchell is my partner. We’ve been together [01:25:00] almost 25 years now. Women’s events and organizations are critically important to us, especially when you look at the political situation that we’ve been forced to live in these last four years. There’s a lot more organizations out there that are going to need people to keep them in everybody’s minds, you know? We need all of this. So she and I were both very happy and delighted to be able to do this. And like I said before, if the budget runs out, I will be there to finish it up. So, you know, if anything goes over budget -- LC: Thank you. SB: Thank you. JS: I don't want Lois to have to worry about it. [01:26:00] SB: Thank you so much, Jzach. I guess I just -- JS: We’ll take care of it. SB: Thank you. Thank you very, very much. When I saw your last name, Sullivan, and then you started talking about all the [01:31:00] people, the Pilgrims in your family, I’m thinking, “Well, what about those Irish? What happened to them?” JS: Well, you know, I will tell you that my name is Sullivan. When I was married, it was a Finnish name. When I got divorced, I wasn’t very smart. I only asked for basically four things. I asked for the right to take my children out of the state of Massachusetts. I asked to be able to take them out of the country if I wanted to. I asked to change their name to 24 �mine and to take my name back. I wanted nothing to do with anything associated with my ex-husband. So [01:32:00] I took back my own name. I gave it to my boys. I wanted to make sure I could leave town. That’s what I asked for. So Sullivan is the name I (inaudible). Plenty of Boston Irish, trust me. Most maddening people to try and do genealogy on. They’re not very original. Everybody’s a Patrick, an Elizabeth, a Timothy. And it’s like ugh. Try to do genealogy on that crowd. Oy. God, they’re the most maddening relatives I have. Not very original. LC: [Sarah] (inaudible) [I’d like to] butt into the interview with a question… I wanted to ask you, [01:33:00] Jzach, about your boys, about your children and these amazing transformations. It sounds like you could have lived three lifetimes, at least, if not more. And your relationship with those kids, those kids’ relationship with your evolving life, and also with notions of masculinity and femininity for you, [and] for them, too. What are your thoughts in that regard? JS: Well, I will tell you that when I first came out in 1978, my boys were just going on five and seven years old. And for my birthday I -- by then I had a girlfriend. This is the one that came from West Virginia. So for my birthday, [01:34:00] the boys went out with her and shopped. I ended up getting a tie, a necktie, and a bar -- Old Spice on a rope, and a bottle of Love’s Baby Soft perfume for girls. The kids picked this out themselves. LC: About says it all. JS: They were great kids. The kids, when they were younger, they were good. You know, they went everywhere with me. They went to college with me when there was no babysitter. They did everything. Their father had nothing to do with them. They went to every Gay Pride with me and took photos. [01:35:00] Went to DOB softball games. 25 �They went to DOB Thanksgiving dinners. Knew all the women from DOB. Now my oldest son will be 50 this coming year. My youngest one just turned 47. They have friends that are gay. My ex-husband, throughout the divorce, never once gave me a hard time about being a queer. That’s because his father was a well-known, a flaming [01:36:00] queen. My ex-husband’s father was gay. He and his wife never divorced. So being a lesbian and being gay never came into play. [Not] at any time did I ever have to worry that he was going to try and take the kids away from me. Number one, he didn’t want them. And being gay was going to be a touchy issue. Because it would’ve come up that his father was. I have seven grandchildren. [01:40:00] I have a partner that I dearly love and am committed to our relationship and to our happiness. That’s how committed I am to that. I’m going to be happy no matter what. It’s all I can do. I spend a lot of time teaching history and this project, and all history and the history of Massachusetts is [01:41:00] very, very important to me. I feel like I have some historical ancestors and female ancestors that I owe a lot to, and that’s what I’m trying to do. I have a lot of great inspiration to work from. I’m very, very blessed and fortunate. I have a wonderful life. As crappy as some of it might sound, I think I’ve always had a really terrific life. There’s certainly parts I don't want to live over again. [01:42:00] But overall, I’ve had a really wonderful life. This kind of endeavor, helping Lois with this project, makes it even better. It’s my pleasure. LC: Lois, if you can hear us, if you want to say something, or ask anything, now’s the time. Yeah. It isn’t happening. Okay. Next time. SB: Jzach, this has been such a great interview with you. I’m so happy to have met you. You inspire me. And this interview will inspire many, [01:43:00] many women. It’s just like 26 �I told you when I called you; we’ll get a transcript of this interview, and we’ll send it to you and you are in full control of what you want in, what you want out, whatever, how you want it. Okay? And I just want to thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you. JS: Well, thank you. SB: You’re an incredibly strong and happy person. That’s a good combination. LC: And not a bad photographer, either. JS: Thank you. Hanging in there. [01:44:00] But thank you both for helping Lois with this project. I know she’s had difficulties. I think we all have mornings when we can’t move very well or feel very good. We all need help with some of this modern technology. So thank you both for helping her with this project and making it move forward. I owe you that, and everyone else that’s going to reap the benefits of this endeavor owes you a great amount of gratitude. So thank you and I hope someday when this virus passes and we can be out and free in the world, I’ll get to meet you both when I come up. It had been my hope to see Lois [01:45:00] and Sheri. Before all of this, I was going to take a drive up and visit with them, and look where we are today. Hopefully, sometime in the near future, it would be lovely to meet both [of you]. And I could photograph you. LC: I bet you’ve already photographed me. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JS: That’s what I do. LC: Over the years. JS: This is what I do. It’s about history. We have another place here in Florida about 30 miles away from here where we live from time to time. It’s at the lesbian community, Carefree? Yeah. What a time that is. It’s [01:46:00] quite amazing. 27 �LC: I Zoom with another group called OLE, Older Lesbian Energy. There’s a woman, Maureen and Carol. Maureen is really Irish. I mean, she was born in Ireland, raised in Ireland. JS: What’s her last name? LC: Coughlin. I think C-O-U-G-H-L-I-N. Maureen (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JS: I know those girls. LC: Do you know them? JS: Yeah. They got a big fat cat. LC: Yes. JS: She was involved with some Montessori school or something, wasn’t she? LC: She was when she was up here. And she had a cat -- JS: There you go. LC: [There] was also a big fat cat called Guinness. Rightly named Guinness World of Records. And (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JS: Well, I met them [01:47:00] this past year because…What we have down here is a really top-notch doctor that all the girls from Carefree like to go see because she’s one of the girls in the club. She’ll only take new patients on these days if you’re a lesbian. The letter has to be hand-carried. So Carol took my letter and my partner’s letter to Dr. Leppert. Yes, I know those girls. They live right on the corner [of] our street. LC: And Maureen has a great Irish accent. JS: Oh, she’s lovely. They’re lovely people. They’re very sweet. And listen, you can’t be there very long until you know everyone. [01:48:00] 28 �LC: Are you scared in Florida because of an increase, a third or second wave? What are your (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? JS: Very nervous. Well, fortunately, down at Carefree, there has not been one case yet. Nobody has got it. Yes, we have concerns, all over Florida. My partner gets bronchitis every year, sometimes twice a year. She got very ill this past year. That’s why we didn’t even make it to Florida for the winter because she was ill. I am the only one who goes out and does all the grocery shopping. I go out once every three weeks. I do this [01:49:00] massive shopping. My girlfriend is an old hippie. I wanted to be a cop. So we’ve got two different attitudes about life. When I go grocery shopping, I feel like I’m a combination between a gladiator and a Green Beret. I don’t let anybody get near me. If you get too close to me and you touch me, I’m going to stand my ground with my cane. I don’t (inaudible) work because I want to keep her healthy. We don’t go out to eat. We don’t have anybody come into our home. We don’t socialize with anybody. We do nothing. We go nowhere. That’s it: grocery store, home. Grocery store, home. We have it [01:50:00] all delivered. At this condo complex we’ve been in, we have been the only ones in the entire complex. We have three buildings and four units per building. We’ve been the only ones here for four months so it’s been perfect. We’re extremely isolated. Yeah, we’re nervous. We’re very careful because I’ve got my own stuff. I’ve got this little heart problem, and we’ll get through that. But, yeah, we’re nervous about being down here. Yeah, we have each other, and we have two German shepherds. It’s like, “What else do we need?” ’m a little bit introverted. And it’s [01:51:00] perfect. I don't have to make any excuses as to why I don't want to go out. Stay home and leave me alone. But we’re doing good. When we want to be more involved with people, we can go over to Carefree. 29 �You can stand in your driveway, and there’s a parade that goes by. You can stop in the middle of the street with your golf cart and sit there and talk all day with somebody. Or they do line dancing in the street. It’s socially acceptable. So they dance in the streets. There is some kind of a community thing. We do the best we can. [01:52:00] I figure by the time we return home to New York will probably be May of 2021. We came down here in March [2019]. So it’s going to be over a year. We’re nervous because we lost some friends in New York right away, back in March. I know of some younger lesbians back in New York City that were just barely 50 years old and healthy people that were dead in less than 72 hours. A gay male friend of ours, young guy, he was not even 60 yet -- I spoke with him on a Saturday afternoon. He said he and his partner both had fevers and were feeling terrible. By Monday morning, my friend John was dead. [01:54:00] This happens so quickly. Joe, his partner, had to go back into the hospital and deal with blood clots in his lungs and his ankles from the COVID. A lot of people in (inaudible) County, there’s been more than 2,000, maybe 2600 people in my county die. SB: I think Lois is trying to get back on. Lois, hi. JS: Is she (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LJ: Hi. SB: Hi. Do you want to talk to Jzach? LJ: I’d love to talk to Jzach. JS: Hi, Lois. LJ: Jzach, you’re fabulous. That’s wonderful. I am so happy -- JS: I think you’re more fabulous. LJ: Happy, happy. 30 �JS: Lois, I think you’re more fabulous. You and Sheri. LJ: Oh, [01:55:00] no. The two of us together (inaudible). We’re so lucky. We’re in a beautiful place, at Spring House, which we hope someday, if you can come up to Boston you can come to see us. That would be great. You’ve given just a fabulous interview. I’ve been listening to every word and so has Sheri. She’s in the bedroom at the moment. Sheri, you want to say hello? No, she’s in the bathroom. I can’t get her at the moment. But it’s wonderful. JS: Well, thank you for this opportunity. LJ: Your generosity and your kindness [01:56:00] in supporting the project and also to hear about what it meant to you to be in the organization.. . Because Sheri and I say all the time when we think of this, DOB was a lifeline for everybody, including us, including those who preceded us, those who came after us. And we are ever so grateful to Del and Phyllis and that small group of women who founded this [DOB] so many years ago, 1955, in San Francisco. I guess that Phyllis has gone on now, too. I don't think she reached 100, but she was way, way [01:57:00] into her 90s. Because I’m 89, and she must’ve been 90-- 97 or something like that. So we miss her. JS: Yeah. She was right up there. LJ: She was. Well, we’ll all go on together to form another DOB in heaven. LC: That’s right. JS: That would be good. I’ll see you there. LJ: I’ll see you there. JS: I think they’ll let me in. LJ: Yeah. I’m so glad. I don't know how I managed to -- what was that? 31 �JS: As soon as I can, life lets us, I would love to be able to come up there and visit you and Sheri. LJ: We would look so much forward to that. That would be just great. [01:58:00] JS: Yeah, I’d love to see you both. LJ: We would certainly love to see you. We’re glad that you are defending yourself about COVID because we are defending ourselves. Our particular place here has not had any cases, thank God. It’s been a very strict lock, but they have protected us. And for the most part, we are happy. We’re not happy to be locked down, but we’re happy to still be here. Well, thank you so much, Jzach. JS: Thank you, Lois. Thank you and Sheri. Yes, absolutely. LJ: I will tell her, when she comes out of the bathroom. (laughter) Okay. LC: Thank you for sharing. [01:59:00] LJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m looking forward to -- LC: You be good. You be good. LJ: You be good, too. Thank you for all you’ve done. Thank you. LC: Okay, shall I end the meeting for everyone? SB: I think it’s the right time. LJ: The time has come. Ciao. Thank you, and a kiss. SB: Thank you so much, Jzach. JS: Thank you both, Laura, Sarah. Thank you so much. I look forward to meeting you. LC: We look forward to meeting you, too. LJ: We’ll have a party. JS: Good. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 32 �SB: We’ll have a party. Right. JS: I want to come up to Massachusetts. Go to Cambridge and get good Indian food. (laughter) LJ: Good. Good. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LC: Okay, everybody. Bye. LJ: Okay. Bye. END OF JZACH SULLIVAN FILE 33 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sullivan, Jzach Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jzach Sullivan, 2020 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-11-01 Description An account of the resource Interview with Jzach Sullivan for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Sarah Boyer and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Sullivan, Jzach; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2c1a79e7f2b9b1da397078a103dcc916.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=pE7tTJpx0dRW21He7qYmOafi7rVdq3OR6nWBFnJtJHrFWs7Cb0AHwLQ8r-K1O8-9OtPgjXcvJeqn8JjD13kIIsgJJbVrrbprWxW2eD3EiSZly7KpHbLxWpxf9k%7Ev2Op5N61liMF98kgcxBgBDu%7E9VPKrvfuE%7EcM7Y1V6luY2yMACmCgKu1FnROIgfF6gw%7ESCT8%7Eyq%7ELvpbxiP%7EbHtGHh2foNU2XsBS25fqis8-UK-A86DPQcVrYAqgKE96nATT98CzmHC9wNFOLnK4bK0EsiZNZzRsn8V4kUJg%7EnTwVi2CNzxpEE7Oltz6Az-QiZ9V%7EBCJyvBO1pcd7msvLZAxrrWw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e737fca0ac68be544679c1f9dacd80e8 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2a8191d667fb37919b77dda702f6936c.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=GwUzvSIOWmvbWZqZspJEMxjpqKweMNsMacpaqG2wSy-cmYmyrA%7EnXYBZBLq0NzabUtTHR3zI0KuuYXFTU%7EvrAVaOeG5-q9oQ8NIcpAoblH7wiq08YTJYgidqS2j5RX5eqyAxVmJUpu4xuiZGyoPiAeM-h6Br1aN6IltPZxcFrVqi10PzBm-umHfOer%7EAwBcDk1AB8nHZzV8haQcS-lr3fbJgFgGQG-P6uexh1ti7r0YcAE4gFfzeEEiFRZc3ZgxRpkCqkmGUOd%7E7QiKY%7EnjqfO2xPKqN2B%7EProWQM%7EtYhIPbilO60OOsmS9LGg2jMVtkuD-yLgG44toeS7jhN61eAA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 6197053ca271783a115927fa61647322 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Karen Sontag Interviewers: Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer June 15, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: Okay. Today is June 15, 2019, and I’m with Karen. . . LOIS JOHNSON: Okay. I’m looking forward to this, Karen. Could you please give us your name, your age, and where you’re currently living? KAREN SONTAG: My name is Karen Sontag. I live in Newton, Massachusetts, and I am 58 years old. LJ: Thank you. Okay, this interview is going to be part of the project which we’re currently doing on the history of Boston DOB. Boston DOB was founded [01:00] in 1970 or so. Tell me a little bit about your early age, where you were born, where you lived, what your parents were like, etc. Just give us a little sense of that. KS: Sure. I was born in 1960, and my parents at that time lived in Newton, Massachusetts. My father was an attorney. He had been a state rep in the late ’50s before I was born. [02:00] I grew up in Newton. I attended the Chestnut Hill School. I attended the Winsor School and graduated from there, and then I went to Bennington College in Vermont. Then, I moved back to Boston. LJ: Then what did you do when you got -- once you got back to Boston? KS: My first job was as an editorial assistant for the Atlantic Monthly, and one of my duties was to sift through the pile of unsolicited manuscripts, mostly short stories, and pick out any ones that had promise and send them up to the editors. LJ: That must have been wonderful, though, to work for the Atlantic Monthly in those days. KS: It was exciting. We also maintained the archives, a card catalog of everything that the magazine published and editorial files and all kinds of things like that. LJ: Boy. (laughs) Tell me, did you study [03:00] library science at -KS: No. I was a literature major. 1 �LJ: At Bennington. KS: At Bennington, yes. LJ: What was Bennington like in those days for you? KS: It was interesting. I was a somewhat sheltered kid from the suburbs. I’d gone to a high school where they were very strict with us, and this was in the era of punk rockers, so there were a lot of wild kids at school. But it was a great, artistic community. And one thing that I remember and really prized about the experience is the faculty members really treated the students with respect, almost as colleagues and really took them seriously, and that had a great effect on students, because they in turn took themselves seriously because they were treated with respect and interest by the faculty. LJ: That certainly is different from most -- many places. Bennington has a wonderful reputation. [04:00] And what were the schools like that you went to when you were younger, your primary school, etc.? They were private schools? KS: Yes. They were small. The Chestnut Hill School, and it’s still in existence over on Hammond Street in Chestnut Hill, was very small. And I went there through I think the fifth grade. I think there were 9 or 10 students in my fifth-grade class. And then -LJ: My goodness. KS: Yeah. The school ended at the sixth grade, and students would go on to either a public school or Beaver Country Day or the Winsor School. And my parents made me take the test for the Winsor School, and they said don’t worry, you won’t get in. (laughter) And by some fluke I did, and then they said how can you turn down an opportunity like this? As of sixth grade, I started the Winsor School, and I did graduate from there. [05:00] 2 �LJ: That’s wonderful. It has an outstanding reputation in the Boston area. What were the things that you enjoyed the most in your primary school? Did you have an artistic bent? KS: Probably recess (laughter) and running around and getting into trouble. LJ: That’s good. You had a feisty personality as a kid? KS: A little bit. I was a handful. LJ: Wonderful. That’s what we like to hear. What were your parents like? KS: Well, as I said, my dad was an attorney, was very hard-working. He maintained an office in Government Center. And my mom had worked prior to my being born I think as a legal secretary but didn’t work after I was born. And she did a lot of charity work, particularly with a group called the Aid for Cancer Research. They would have this annual ladies luncheon every year as a fundraiser, [06:00] and then they had a board of doctors who advised them what they should do with the proceeds from their luncheon every year. They made gifts of wings and equipment to various hospitals. I believe they’re still in existence, too. LJ: That’s wonderful. KS: The Aid for Cancer Research. LJ: Was your mother -- was she a doctor? KS: No. She wasn’t. The interesting thing about my parents is my father was Jewish and my mother was Catholic, so in the ’50s, when they were dating, that was a big deal. LJ: That was a big deal. KS: That was a really big deal to be -- and then to be a child of an interfaith marriage, I was raised as a Catholic because my mother was very religious. My father was okay with that. 3 �LJ: That’s interesting. I’ve heard that before where there was a Catholic and Jewish combination. Usually it was a Catholic mother, and they really wanted their child to be brought up Catholic. [07:00] That’s very interesting. You went on from that, and you went to -- because you were interested in literature -- to this place. And how long were you there? KS: There being -LJ: There being Atlantic Monthly. KS: Oh. About 10 years. LJ: Really? KS: And then I got more interested in social justice, and I went to graduate school part-time, while I was still working, to a program in conflict resolution at U Mass Boston; so [I] studied negotiation, mediation, etc. Shortly thereafter, I started working for the Mass. Office of Dispute Resolution, which was a state agency that worked with other state agencies and municipalities, so I was there for about eight or nine years as well. LJ: Tell us a little bit about the kinds of things [08:00] that you worked with there. KS: Well, we did training and negotiation skills, meeting facilitation, conflict resolution -- for employees of state agencies like -- I’m trying to think. We worked a lot with -- I’m not sure what they call it now, but back in those days, it was the Department of Mental Retardation. I think it has a different name now. We worked with all kinds of state agencies, municipalities, conflicts between town fire departments and the town, or conflicts within organizations. It was a very interesting time. A lot of environmental cases. We also ran programs in the courts, small mediation programs that were managed by our office. 4 �LJ: So, does that area -- does that still exist? KS: No. The office has sort of shrunk down through budget cuts, and I believe now it’s called [09:00] the Mass Office of Conciliation, and it’s an institute of U Mass Boston. LJ: Oh, I see. KS: It’s no longer a state agency, but we had a good run, and we did a lot of good work. LJ: What are you doing now? KS: Now, I worked for a small consultancy called the Greater Boston Manufacturing Partnership, and we do continuous improvement work in manufacturing and healthcare. And I’m more of an operations person, really a business writer. I write grants on behalf of our clients, I write case studies about the work that we do, and some training materials, etc. LJ: That’s unusual. Is it a state -- no, it’s not state. KS: No, it’s a nonprofit. It’s a mission-based organization. LJ: Is that located right here in Boston? KS: We are now in the Fort Point area of Boston, off of A Street. LJ: The place where [10:00] all the feistiness is going on. (laughs) KS: Oh yeah. The Seaport. You just wouldn’t recognize it. It’s pretty crazy. LJ: And you hope that the ocean does not come in soon. KS: So do all those high-priced condo owners. (laughter) LJ: Who thought that they were getting a deal. (laughs) Well. Would you tell me a little bit more about your family as time has gone on? Are you an only child? KS: I was an only child. My parents both died in 2009. I spent the last 10 years of their lives being a primary caregiver, as I was the only child, and I think many people have that 5 �experience, and it’s very challenging, especially if you’re trying to work. I mean, I used to work for Cambridge Health Alliance somewhere in there, and I was supposed to be doing new employee orientation one day, and I get the call from my mother, “Your father’s on the way to the MGH [11:00] by ambulance,” and all those kinds of things. That’s very stressful. It’s funny. I just saw an article in the Atlantic recently about daughters as caregivers, and how working mothers have so much support in our culture and so much recognition, but daughters as caregivers really do not. And it -- it’s incredibly stressful because usually people become more needy and more dependent as they get older, not less, and there are just so many crises that happen. LJ: It’s time-consuming. KS: Yeah. LJ: And if you don’t have a partner or a husband or a wife to help you with it, it really consumes your whole life. KS: Yeah. Or siblings. But even in families where there are multiple children, it often falls to one or two, and usually to the daughters. [12:00] SB: That’s right! LJ: Usually it’s a long line of women who give hours and hours of labor per week to the parents or to whomsoever. That’s an admirable thing that you did. Now, you were employed all the time that you were doing that? KS: Yes. LJ: What kinds of hobbies do you have, and what do you enjoy socially? KS: I’m a big music fan. I love jazz, I love folk music, pop music, so I go to a lot of concerts. I enjoy that. I like being in the Boston area for the cultural offerings, the readings, plays, 6 �different things like that. We pay a premium to live in the city, and I try to take advantage of some of the offerings. I also in recent years have started to travel a lot more. [13:00] I do a lot of trips with Olivia Travel. Are you familiar with them? LJ: Oh, do you? KS: I do. It’s a very safe and companionable way to travel. Next year, for my 60th birthday -I’ll be 59 in August, but next year, I’ve signed up to go to India with Olivia. SB: Oh my God, wow! LJ: That’s wonderful. KS: Yeah. Olivia’s doing a huge variety of trips, so I’ve -- since my parents passed in 2010, I’ve done quite a few trips with Olivia. I was in Japan earlier this spring. LJ: My goodness. SB: Oh, that’s wonderful. God. LJ: You do get around. (laughter) KS: Yeah. I’ve also done some trips on my own. And you never regret having those experiences. In 2016, I went to Cuba, which is something, courtesy of the Trump administration, that most of us can’t do now again today. SB: I’ve done it, too and I did it when Obama was [14:00] -- before Obama, but anyway. KS: I did, too. Yeah, but he went in 2016, shortly after I was there. And other places as well. In 2015, I was lucky enough to visit Turkey and Istanbul. And at that time, Istanbul was still a wonderful, secular city where you’d see women walking down the street in full chador next to women wearing hot pants. That has unfortunately been eroded in the last few years. The world is a really dynamic place, and you never regret having visited some 7 �of those places. And when things happen in the world, you feel more plugged-in when you’ve been to a place and experienced it. LJ: I think it’s wonderful you’ve had all those opportunities to trip. I would like to know when did you realize that -KS: That’s -- Oh, I know her. Laura. [15:00] SB: There’s Laura. You know her! Is that right? KS: From the Arlington Street Church. Hi! SB: Hi! LJ: Hi. How are you? LAURA CATANZARO: Hi. Hi. LJ: Hello, hello. SB: Karen. KS: Hi. LC: Hi. Sorry to be so impossibly late. It’s just one of those days. LJ: Yeah. Well, we’re glad you’re here, my dear. Good to see you. Sit ye down. LC: I’m going to record as well, just to have a backup. LJ: You’re just going to record it? Another one? (laughs) LC: Oh, have you done it? Finished? SB: No, no, no. LJ: We’re in the middle. SB: We’re right in the middle of it. LC: Oh, there, yeah. I’ll just jump in. I’m sure we don’t need it, but if we do, we’ll have at least half. 8 �KS: Okay. LJ: Are we stopped or still going? SB: No, we’re still going. LJ: We’re still going. SB: Just go right ahead, Lois. LJ: Okay, fine. All right. I’m at the point where I wanted to ask you, you identify as lesbian, and if so, you [16:00] -- when did you first have feelings about women that you thought were a little different or unusual? KS: Well, I probably did back in high school. It’s -- because it was an all-girls school, and I went there in sixth grade, and so there were girls up through high school year, so I think I started to have crushes on women then. And then in eighth grade, there was one particular girl that I really had a terrible crush on, and she didn’t come back to school after the fall semester, and I was just terribly upset. As it turned out, her family sent her to the Sorbonne for the last half of her senior year, but I had no idea that those plans were being made. So I think when she didn’t come back to school after Christmas vacation, I probably walked the halls like a woman with no [17:00] country, and so much so that my parents were called in, because they could tell I was depressed, but -- they knew something was wrong with me, but of course I couldn’t tell anyone. LJ: No! KS: No, not back in those days, so I kind of soldiered on. I think I was made to go see a psychiatrist and everything, but we got through it. I went on, and I did -- I did date boys. I didn’t ever have a particularly close relationship with one, but I did have a little boyfriend in high school. And my parents were very strict, so it wasn’t like I was 9 �running around all the -- everywhere with him. And then I went to college, and I think that’s when I really started to have those -- more of those feelings. I don’t think I -- I did have a little bit of a crush on one of the teachers at school and hung out with her a bit. She was the head dyke on campus. She took me to a party where I met [18:00] Adrienne Rich, so it was all exciting. In Williamstown. But I was still -- coming from the kind of background that I came from, my mother was a big Catholic, my parents were very, very straight arrows in every sense of the word, I was really a little afraid and a little afraid of how they would react. But finally, after I graduated from school, there were a lot of friends from college in the Boston area, and a lot of them were going to different clubs. One of them was called the 1270 on Boylston Street. Another was the Marquis in Central Square. So I think one night, I went out with a bunch of them to the Marquis, in part to show how non-homophobic I was, and I met my first girlfriend at the Marquis. Her name was Sophie, and I met her and talked to her. And then months later, I went back to the Marquis, and there she was, standing at the same place at the bar, and [19:00] then that took off. I think I was -- that was probably 1983. I was 22, and I had my first relationship. But I was very secretive about it. In those days, I worked at the Atlantic Monthly, and was at 8 Arlington Street, and she worked downtown as well for an investment office. I would walk a couple of blocks over to the Ritz and use the pay phone in the Ritz basement to call her because I didn’t want anybody to know. LC: That’s pretty funny. 10 �KS: And then finally, there was a friend at the Atlantic named Jan Morris, and her mother was a lesbian, and she and some of the other girls just took me out for drinks one day and said ‘get over yourself and stop being so silly, it’s all cool’. There, I was accepted. LJ: Wonderful that you got to that point. That was your first girlfriend. KS: My first girlfriend. LJ: And how long did that last? [20:00] KS: We had some on and off, but about 10 years. LJ: Have there been other women in your life? KS: Oh yes. A few. (laughter) LJ: Tell us a little bit. KS: I don't think we have enough tape here for all of that. (laughter) You know, I think it’s -you do tend to go from relationship to relationship when you’re younger. I – when I was younger, I tended to date older women. My first girlfriend was 11 years older, and I kind of kept up that pattern and dated quite a few older women. And it’s interesting because now some of the people I date are in their 70s and 80s, and just interesting. A lot of them have just turned 70. So I had various relationships over the years. I think that tended to die down a little in the years I was taking care of my parents, but I recently started [21:00] dating someone pretty seriously. LJ: That’s what we like to hear. (laughs) KS: Yeah. She’s a big baseball fan. LJ: Oh. Are you a baseball fan? KS: No, but I -- we went to Pride night at the Red Sox last week. SB: I was there! 11 �KS: We’ve been hanging out in all the same -- were you up in the Sam Deck at that party? SB: No, I didn’t go to the party. (laughs) KS: Okay. LJ: Well, that sounds as though it’s a promising thing. Could you tell me a little bit about your hobbies? I think that in your particular interests, I think you have covered some of that, but is there anything you’d like to tell us about other things that you like to do besides work? Or maybe you don’t have any time, you’re working so much. KS: I’ve always been interested in the women’s community and women’s culture. [22:00] I, as you know, went to DOB groups for many years. I went to groups at the Women’s Center in Cambridge. I went to some of the women’s music festivals around the country, the Southern Music Festival, the New England Music Festival. And I was lucky enough to go the Michigan Women’s Music Festival three times. Once in 1990 and once in 2010, and then once in 2014, which is the year before the last year that it was held. LJ: That was something that a lot of people wanted to go to, [but] didn’t have the opportunity. Could you tell us a little bit about when you first learned about DOB and when you first came and if you had any particular interests and what you might have done within the DOB structure? KS: I’m not sure [23:00] how I learned about DOB, because this was way -- this was -- we’re probably talking 1983, ’84, ’85. There was no internet. Back then, before we had the internet, we had bulletin boards. There were certain places around that were known for having really interesting bulletin boards, like J.P. Licks still has a bulletin board in the back now, but that’s probably something -- that’s probably how I learned about it. There was a notice on a bulletin board someplace, and I remember -- by that point, I had moved 12 �to Davis Square, Somerville. I lived in David Square for 25 years, from about 1985 through 2009, in the same apartment. I had access to the Red Line and could get around that way. I think I told you before, I remember in the early years, going into a rap [24:00] upstairs in the church in that room that DOB rented, and I had my little Laura Ashley dress on from work, and some woman telling me I was not in the right place. (laughter) LJ: Did somebody say that to you? KS: Yes, yes. But that was -- I didn’t know enough to appreciate it at the time, but the amazing thing about DOB was -- and being lesbian, it brought together people from all walks of life. I’d be in there in my little dress, and there was a woman who’s still a friend of mine today, Dee Greenberg, and she was wearing black leather from head to toe, and everything in between, and people who come from very different backgrounds. We had this one sometimes clandestine thing in common that we were all lesbians. And we would talk. I kind of miss that. And Michigan was that way, too. It bought together women from all parts of the country, [25:00] from all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds. And now, gay life is very segregated in lots of ways by background, by interests, by different things like that, and that’s, I think, a loss. LJ: That’s an interesting comment because the reason that DOB closed was that we thought that DOB interests -- not DOB, but lesbian interests were becoming more fragmented, and we didn’t think of it as something that was necessarily bad, but it meant that we were not, as I said, the only place that you could go, and so there wasn’t as much interest. But perhaps things are going to change again, as they always usually do. But I don’t know. You might [26:00] give us a little bit more interest about that, I mean commentary about 13 �that. Have you found any organizations that are just -- people with many interests come to or just segment it? KS: Well, I think the meet-ups, which have kind of taken over at this time, they’re a little bit segregated. I mean, they have the South Shore Lesbians, they have the North Shore Lesbians, they have the Lesbians Who Golf, they have the Activist Lesbians. So there is still this kind of segregation, but I think we’re now again in a political time where we may all need to come together again to make sure that our rights aren’t taken away, to defend the rights of women. So there may, as you say, be another great gathering again, but... LJ: Well, have you ever been to Rally? [27:00] KS: Yes, I have. LJ: And to OLOC? KS: Yes. LJ: Yeah. So they have filled that area a little bit. KS: To some degree they have. I mean, I think we’re all really going to miss the dialogue that OLOC promoted. LJ: Yes. Yeah. And also, we would miss a monthly Rally, because I believe that’s changing also to something smaller. KS: It takes a lot of energy to run one of these groups. I was involved for about seven years with a meet-up called LASS. It was the Lesbian Aid and Service Society. And there were six of us who ran the meet-up, and we were there to provide non-professional help to women in the community, women who had sudden illness or accidents. [28:00] And we did help a lot of women, but we also did find that we were based in the Boston area, 14 �but that the community was so disparate, it was really hard to serve people. We also ran on volunteer energy, so we really didn’t have the person-power to serve the chronically disabled, people who had pretty consistent ongoing needs, but we were there to provide a ride for somebody home from a procedure, or to have a second set of ears for a doctor’s appointment, or to do an errand or get some food for somebody who was house-bound, somebody who had broken a hip or whatever. We did quite a lot with that. Then, we took over the mantle of having the annual women’s Thanksgiving Dinner in the Cambridge area. We ended up using the UU church in Arlington for two or three years; we liked to have that -- as DOB I think started the tradition. [29:00] Then I think another meet-up called Over-4D did it one year, but then we took it over, so we did it for I think three years, to have a women’s Thanksgiving -- a lesbian Thanksgiving dinner, really, the Sunday before Thanksgiving, just in recognition that many people didn’t have a place to go on Thanksgiving, but also didn’t have a place where it was okay to be lesbian, and that was celebrated. LJ: That’s very interesting. I didn’t even know anything about that. My goodness. That is -that ran for a few years? KS: Yeah, seven or eight years. And it started -- the original founder who didn’t stay with it had a sudden medical emergency requiring surgery and just -- her looking at the mess it caused in her life and really not having any place to go or anyone to call to really help out with certain things. And so she was the [30:00] founder. And then six of us took it over. I think with anything in the women’s community, there’s always a lot of dialogue, there’s always a lot of dissent, and that can really bog things down. 15 �LJ: It can. I think that has both positives and negatives, but it seems that you’ve done an enormous amount of volunteer work, a lot of interest in that. Do you think that you -that’s something that you probably will continue with even as you age into your -- maybe beginning to get towards 60, it’s something that you feel you’ll be able to do more of? Or not more of, but a similar amount time devoted to it? KS: I hope so. At this point in my life, I’m a little bit challenged by working full-time, [31:00] having started a new relationship, trying to take care of a house, trying to get regular exercise. There’s only so many hours in the day, and all of those things are a little challenging for me right now, with the time. LJ: I’m sure it is, because houses do take a lot of time, too. Well, let me see. We’ve covered a lot of things that’s there. Anything in that we have not talked about that you would like to talk about? In a relationship, too, maybe a little bit -- I think you gave us some things about DOB. Is there any more things you would like to say about that? KS: I know I became a rap leader at one point, and I don’t remember. The raps had different titles or different -LJ: They did. KS: But I don’t remember which one I took. It was maybe every other Tuesday or something like that. LJ: I’ve got you down in my list [32:00] somewhere. KS: Oh, really? LJ: Yeah. There’s some older material that I managed to get, and I’ll tell you at some point, but I can’t tell you right now. I saw your name there, and I said, “I know that woman.” (laughter) 16 �KS: Just to say a shout out about the raps. You know, it’s such a nice way to meet people. You could really see them over time, and you could hear what they had to say. You know, the internet’s never going to replace that. I mean, some people hate Facebook, some people love it, but there’s just something about getting a bunch of people in a circle and talking about a particular topic. We don’t have as much opportunity for that kind of dialogue these days. LJ: Real people that you can look at and say that would be interesting. That’s true. [33:00] I think that was a -- of course, excuse me, please, that was something that really started the ’60s, in the ’70s, and seems to have become just oh, let me look on my Facebook or let me look at something else in my telephone and not really say to the person could you answer such and such a question? Or how do you feel about something? I think that’s a loss. KS: I agree. LJ: Now, is there anything else you’d like to tell us or riffed on? KS: (laughs) I’m just thinking. I mean, I remember the DOB did other things that were -- there were dances. I think DOB had some dances and all kinds of activities. LJ: There were -- and you came to 156.[Lois and Sheri’s house in the South End] KS: You must have had a -- yeah, [34:00] a party. Yeah, I remember that. LJ: People getting to meet people, yes. KS: Yeah. Those were all great things. LJ: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us in general about? Or anything that you feel we have not covered? 17 �SB: Well, I was just wondering, you mentioned that you did things at the Women’s Center. Were there a lot of women at the Women’s Center who also participated in DOB? Or was it pretty separate? KS: I think they were -- at least for me, they were separate. I mean, I think when there were fewer DOB meetings or when DOB really stopped operating in the way that it had, I think many people or the next generation would go to -- I don’t know if they still called them raps, at the Women’s Center. SB: Yeah. They do have raps. KS: They had a big living room there, and they had certain -- maybe once a month, also with topic, or maybe separated by age, so they’d have [35:00] leaders. And same kind of thing. Go around and -SB: They still do. KS: Yeah, they still do. SB: Yeah, yeah. KS: They still do. I haven’t been over there in years, but... SB: There was something I wanted to ask you. So you came at the end of Lois’ presidency? KS: I believe that was the case. I remember a big deal where there was, as you mentioned, that contest between Jean Koh and Stephanie, and they were always sort of mortal enemies. It was all pretty dramatic back in the day. And then I don’t know why Jean let it go, and then Stephanie soldiered on for many years and even did a Thanksgiving dinner, I remember, at one hotel, I think. I believe she paid the rent on that office for years. Then maybe there was a smaller office. [36:00] I don’t know. She’s -- she’s intense. I mean, she really doesn’t like to let things go. 18 �LJ: No. SB: So, Jean was the president after Lois. KS: Yeah. There was an election, and I think Jean became the president. LJ: Yes. At that time, we had been sort of an oligarchy. (laughs) I don’t know how that happened, but I guess it did. I’d been president for about 14 years. I’d kept it together. I was determined that the organization was going to be successful. Anyway, this isn’t about me. It’s about you. And I believe it was Jean after that. And I know that we had a formal meeting, and at that formal meeting, DOB decided that its mission had been accomplished. Stephanie did not feel [37:00] that way, so she kept it up in a way that she felt was useful. I’m sure she did a lot of good. That’s why I’ve been trying to get in touch with her, but I’ve not received any comment back from her if there is a proper number. KS: Well, that gmail address I gave you is pretty recent. I know Stephanie also went on and did quite a lot of travel with Olivia. Quite a number of trips, and I believe we’re both going to be on a trip to Italy in the fall because there’s a Facebook group, and she’s been active in it. But she doesn’t really seem to want to talk to anybody, including me. (laughter) LJ: Maybe that’s why she hasn’t responded to me. Is it stephboston? KS: I gave you a gmail address, which was new. LJ: I know. I don’t have it on me. KS: Yeah, so that was the last one. I don’t know where she’s living. She lived in Bay Village for [38:00] many years. LJ: I know that. KS: She may still live there. 19 �LJ: Do you think she lives in Somerville? KS: She did live in Somerville, and then she moved back to the city to Bay Village. And I’m really not sure where she’s living, but she’s retired from the federal government. LJ: Has she? Yeah. Well, I’ll keep trying. I had it as stephboston@gmail.com. KS: That might be it. I think that sounds right. LJ: Yeah. KS: Yeah. LJ: Yeah, well I wrote to her last week, and I haven’t heard anything so far. I never want anyone to think that I’m trying to exclude them in any way. I would like to have her in this book or whatever it’s going to turn into. So I will ask you, without being repetitious hopefully, is there anything else you’d like to say? KS: I’m trying to think. I mean it’s -- [39:00] I’ve come a long way. I think I told you back in the early years, I had gone -- seen women in my college who were gay as undergraduates and who would go on and get married. I kind of thought that’s what my life would be like, but 30 came and went, 40 came and went, and it never happened. And I’m not sorry. I don’t dislike men, but I’m very happy in relationship with women. LJ: Good, good. SB: Do you feel that being in -- I mean, you came in sort of at the end of DOB with Lois. Do you feel at that time that you felt pretty safe about being out as a lesbian? I mean, did you just think about different situations that you were in, like at work or [40:00] -- just different events or something, did you feel safer because you had been in DOB? That DOB supported you? 20 �KS: Yeah, it definitely normalized it for me. I mean, I think as I mentioned, I was a little afraid when I first came out about my family’s reaction. I was afraid to be out at work, but as the years went on, those things, those fears eased up. When I came to DOB in the mid‘80s, it was still pretty vibrant. I mean, you’d get 30 people in a room for a rap, and it was all new to me, so it was pretty exciting in those days. SB: Were your parents supportive? KS: Well, as I said, my mother was very Catholic. I think sort of what I hold on to is every once in a while, she’d get mad at me, and she’d say I don’t approve of your lifestyle, blah, blah, blah, but she loved all my girlfriends. [41:00] (laughter) That was something that they were sort of accepted as part of the family and welcome at the house or whatever. That was something that I held onto. Even the year my mother died, she and the woman I was dating at the time, they were like this. [putting two fingers together) My mother told her things she didn’t even tell me. So I think it would have been okay. LJ: Was it easier for your father, do you think? KS: Maybe. I think he was more in the world than my mother. You know, he was an attorney, so he sort of saw more things than she did. So I think possibly. Not that we ever discussed it at great length, mind you, but... LJ: No. But at least you got that feeling that he was more worldly than your mother. KS: Yeah. LJ: And his religion wasn’t holding [42:00] him back as much. KS: No. Not necessarily. LC: I have a question. KS: Okay. 21 �LC: And it may be like too big a question for the end of this as it my want. I like to ask big, philosophical questions. But particularly because of the ASC connection, Arlington Street Church, I’m just wondering what your thoughts are, looking back and even looking forward, especially since there’s been a lot of change. We can get married now, at least for a while anyway. But I’m wondering what your thoughts are about being lesbian and your spirituality. And I’m not talking religion, per se, although religion has its mores and its morals and its morality. What is that intersection [43:00] of things spiritual in being a lesbian for you in this era and with the support of groups like DOB and everything else in the Boston area that we have and that you have also helped to create? KS: Well, I think I wrestled with that as a young person quite a bit. The Catholic Church really gets its hooks into you. So at least in the early years, I was very fearful about that. And then one day, I just came to the realization that God made me and God made me this way, and I didn’t choose to be a lesbian, to be deviant or for any other reason. And who knows why any of us are gay? And I just kind of relaxed about it, and I think ASC in particular, I could [44:00] -- I could see a largely gay community in which there were people who were gay and holy, and gay and spiritual, and gay and in whose -- I was in awe of them for their service to others. So I think it really -- I started going to ASC I think in 1989 when Kim became the minister. And you could just really -- it was helpful to me in that, especially because -- I don’t think you were here, but my father was Jewish, my mother was Catholic, I was raised as a Catholic, so there was already a lot of churn for me with spirituality. So the Unitarian church was a very comfortable place for me to be. I had a friend in college who was a Unitarian and who studied to be a Unitarian 22 �minister, so I didn’t grow up knowing about the UU faith, but he sort of got me involved in it. [45:00] And it has been very helpful. LC: Great. Thank you. LJ: That’s a very interesting question. SB: That is. LJ: Maybe we’ll do -- not here, but we’ll do a riff on it at some point. Maybe a meeting of some kind. KS: And I think DOB, too, I mean just to see that there were productive members of society who were gay, and as I said, I was in my 20s in those years that I was involved. There were older women who led all different kinds of lives. It was definitely helpful and supportive. It was good to see that. LC: Certainly, faith through action, all the things you did, LASS, those actions, this action, the four of us sitting here, [46:00] are constructive, are for the good and for the God or Goddess. KS: What was that movie with -- Sling Blade. Did you ever see that movie? LJ: What was it? KS: A movie called Sling Blade. Oh, you should -- it’s a really interesting movie. It’s about this sort of developmentally disabled character, and he’s in the South, and there’s -- you really should see this movie. It’s a great movie, but there’s a gay character, and he takes an interest in this young boy. And at one point, this somewhat violent developmentally disabled character says to him ‘you don’t have to sleep with a woman to be a father to a boy.’ But it’s a really powerful scene. This movie was quite popular. It’s probably came out about 20 years ago, but it’s called Sling Blade. 23 �SB: Yeah, I can picture the actor now. [47:00] KS: Yeah. What’s his name? SB: I mean -- yeah. I always liked him, too. I always thought he was good. KS: But you know, here was this very basic person who really thought in terms of black and white for the most part, good and bad, but even he could see that this gay character was morally superior to the parents of this child and was really better off for him. I was... LJ: That’s interesting. I haven’t seen that one. KS: Now, that’s -- it’d be easy to call that up on Netflix or Prime or something. LJ: Oh yeah, yeah. LC: And not mix it up with Blade Runner. KS: No, no. (laughter) LC: What is his name? KS: Billy Bob Thornton. I remember now. SB: That’s it. That’s it. KS: Sling Blade. Let’s see what year it came out. LJ: Well, that would be a great difference than the way until recently -- [48:00] KS: 1996. LJ: -- very recently, we’ve had some films that have given new positive character to lesbians, because all I remember are the ones from the ’70s, like the ones with (inaudible) the person said -- it was a very -- not a very interesting movie. And then there were the ones where the lesbian always gets either taken out somewhere or is shot in the end or decides that she’s not gay anymore, etc. There were some very negative films in the ’50s, ’60s. LC: The Children’s Hour. 24 �KS: Oh yeah. No, very depressing. LJ: Yeah, yeah. KS: Yeah. What was that -- I’m trying to think. John Ritter was in it, and he actually played the gay character. It came out in 1996. A lot of it is a little hard to sit through. [49:00] It says mentally disabled Karl Childers, Billy Bob Thornton, is released from the mental hospital where he has spent most of his life after murdering his mother and her lover. He soon forms a bond with Frank, a boy whose father committed suicide. When Frank’s mother, Linda, let’s Karl stay at their house, her cruel boyfriend, Doyle, tries to get Karl removed. Determined to protect his friend, Karl devises a way to save Frank from years of Doyle’s abuse. I don’t know why that came to mind, but it did. I recommend it. It’s worth seeing. LJ: It would be interesting to see. LC: It’s what can happen on a human level that is so important in our -- the narrative of our lives. And now, it’s -- there’s a thing about what do we do about and with and accepting trans people? Well, we have to look at our own way of being human. And do we say [50:00] okay, well this woman now wants to be a man, but she was a woman. What is the -- not just the choice in the moment, but a kind of a structure overall that allows you to be human and not makes you be inhuman in the name of religion or anything else, just like Christianity had been, you know? SB: I mean, there’s women’s organizations that won’t accept trans women; Over 40D as far as I know still does not. KS: That’s not -- actually, they recently re-voted, but yeah, this has been a -SB: But the national chapter of OLOC does not. 25 �KS: Really? Interesting. SB: Yeah. I mean, the whole thing about that we have been so oppressed in our lives because we’re lesbians, to go out and [51:00] do that to other people, to me is just -- doesn't make any sense. KS: Well, it’s been a very divisive issue in the lesbian community and one of the things that I think contributed to the Michigan Women’s Festival ending. Personally, I am a trans advocate. I have a lot of very close, thoughtful, smart friends who feel that there should be spaces that are reserved for women born women, for that particular experience. Just like at Michigan, there was a women of color tent, and out of respect, white women didn’t enter that tent. This was a huge issue. I mean, it really -- this issue raged probably for the last 10 years of Michigan. And the year that I went was -- which was a year before the end, or the last time I went, they hadn’t -- the folks at Michigan actually had some really wonderful dialogue work [52:00] that took place between women that felt trans women shouldn’t be welcomed at the festival and women that [felt they] should. Some of it was facilitated by J. Bob Alotta who has been -- she just stepped down from her post from that big Astra Lesbian Fund in New York. But anyway, they did some incredible work there, but they’re still -- I think all of us know people that just feel strongly that these spaces and groups should be reserved for people that grew up as women. And even though I don’t feel the same way, I respect that they feel that way. SB: I guess for myself, I just remember what one woman went through at the Women’s Center back in the -- it must have been in the early ’80s. There was a trans woman. There was physical violence [53:00] against her; she was thrown out. I mean, it was just awful. 26 �KS: It is difficult for people. I mean, if you’ve friends who have transitioned, it is a kind of -maybe difficult isn’t the right word, but it is a challenging thing. I have a friend from college who recently transitioned, and it’s a shift. It’s hard to... LJ: Well, at DOB, in the ’70s, we had a long discussion about this and wrestled with ourselves, and we voted. We had a formal vote on it, and we voted if you identify as a woman, that’s fine with us. You can come, and it’s just okay. [54:00] But I guess that some women did not particularly agree with that. Of course, the vote was fairly close, and we did have some dissension over that, but it was very important to us that -- there was a woman named Martha. Martha is a man, must have been a very formal person, because there were some laughable moments that Sheri could tell you about with Martha. Martha’s physical appearance was woooo! You know, the huge, tall man, and also wearing skirts. It just -- she didn’t look like a woman. Maybe she matured to look like one, but she identified that way. Then, we had another woman who [55:00] really was -who had been a man, and she really looked like a woman by the time that she got to us, and so we just felt that way. We felt particularly -- this was in the ’70s and the early ’80s -- that there was so much angst for these people that we had a great deal of compassion for them. We didn’t want them to feel as though they were floating out in space somewhere where no one would accept them, one side or the other. So I guess we were unusual as a group that we did accept, because I knew there were many people who did not accept. That’s a very good question, which could serve as the beginnings of a whole day-long discussion. SB: Oh, sure. [56:00] LJ: So, thank you so much. 27 �SB: Thank you, Karen. KS: Oh, you're all welcome. You’re welcome. SB: It’s very good. You are so articulate. LC: Yeah. KS: Thanks. LJ: As Sarah explained, this will be transcribed, and you will have a chance to look over the transcription. If there’s anything that you wish to change or take out, that’s fine with us. This is yours, not ours. This is a piece of your life. It is not ours. The way that it will appear, we are hoping is that we’re -- with all the interviews we’re going to have, which by the time we get finished, as we’ve said, we probably hope to have 25. We might have more. We might have less. From those, we would like to [57:00] excerpt certain sections from each person’s interview. There won’t be room, I don’t think, to put total interviews in, but there will be enough to define that person. So, we’ll see where that is, and you’re giving us with your permission slip, the chance to do that. KS: Certainly. LJ: Did you have any questions you wanted to ask me? KS: No. I’m all set, if you (inaudible). Thank you for the opportunity. SB: Thank you very much. LJ: Well, thank you so much for being available and coming and spending time with us, because it’s been a little difficult to find folks. LC: Well, they’re coming out of the woodwork a little bit. It’s always in little spurts, and then nothing. 28 �LJ: I know. Little spurts and then nothing. I must tell us all, too, which most of us know, but I want you to know, is that there’s a woman named [58:00] Jenny Sullivan. You remember Jenny? KS: Oh, she was just -- I know her. I’ve been back in touch with her. She now, speaking of transgender, goes by Jzack. [Jzack is not transgender; she recently changed her name.] LJ: By Jzack, yes. And I have to get used to that. But she has done a marvelous thing. She -we got in touch with her. I think we’re trying to contact her in terms of -- excuse me. I’m having my cough. LC: Take your time, Lois. LJ: Of having -- of doing this. And she, in her response, gave us $10,000. KS: Wow. That’s amazing. LC: Yes. LJ: To put into our checking account, and we’re using it to get the interviews done. KS: Oh, great. SB: For getting them transcribed, you know, and that. [59:00] KS: Oh, nice. LC: It’s expensive. KS: Equally valuable, her photographs. LJ: I know. Yes. LC: They’re incredible. SB: You okay? LJ: And we were extremely -- I’m fine. We were extremely grateful to her. END OF KAREN SONTAG FILE 29 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sontag, Karen Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Sontag, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06-15 Description An account of the resource Interview with Karen Sontag for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Sontag, Karen; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/3d9bafcb003162009c1e1c1a38667070.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=XQvAUl5V2DNoDD01D66B%7EF65k9%7EW8d3raj0WQKMFKYwhlICtEVa8Zs5O3s%7EwtUEphLygedX-W20Bi3CTuPe9v3BDoxJZGXUxK-cSiXC6GNMf7ZvQZr15f9hJCi8I0VUmxpKcAitvLAl0fzAss56H4l0No5JJzZo-s%7EjBkg5vPfPu4fpybvG%7EF3%7EjUvx0utVgP1waF2hz%7EqxR7jiau2Rp-H6eRamm303lH8nVg1wKM%7EOaum3TekTEa2wm52XcsqDkYp3I2dpAIzvMcofTjXssC6b9YsWis5CJ62t-n%7EYCJA0MwxAD1vi2OBx5Xv73Bod42MZRw8aiBvhJrjT1m%7E542Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM caeaa17f84fa63dfc22f2289781b14cb https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/8df75f50b92362e0cc5e6b366f8cdde7.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=T3ukaRIcPkF6Zva2PJhKp%7EwrZOyMvRExEpnfntWWyLBykQ5mzPDMS3fYMYnkWr1b%7En5R8-6OeRdPXjkq3Tysb4VAXg-8ghu78zoJLuVKpeHt39yE1Vh96w60fuihC0zIW9JmjobvJSd2gj0QaxL50JJjteZfDqgtDRkFpIYyu4r4hJf9ckRKs3dWJDiDHteqRdphI0jGIuQhfrjyC7UrJdrMZAVGrKAIFIQ6GKEd7M0rg-ZWMA8w8-rsEEl65ZM-sJrRQYjl2gwJPFpj-72E3dTvC3pa17Cb4W-bm7qcAH9W2KmaABWa7EHPlSHTwizRnDYbQYacx91TJuO7G91vwg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 14026409148e307a7eb24f863a8c2d4b PDF Text Text Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Ann Maguire Interviewers: Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, Laura Catanzaro January 13, 2020 �ANN MAGUIRE:. . .And different things that have happened in the evolution. And really, Boston, in many respects led the way. You know, Harvey Milk, supervisor blah, blah; Elaine was elected three years before him, and a state-wide office, she was a state rep. Harvey was a city supervisor. SARAH BOYER: AM: Right. Which is a lot easier. LOIS JOHNSON: Than being the state rep. AM: Than being the state rep. LJ: It is. LJ: Well, if there’s anything that I could do, or we could do, with the gerontology project at some point. SB: Yeah, that’d be great. LJ: We’d invite them here for dinner. (laughter) Okay, well, why don’t we get started? SB: Okay. Today is Monday January 13th, and I’m here at Spring House with Lois Johnson, [00:01:00] Laura Catanzaro, and our interviewee, Ann Maguire. We are so happy to see you and to be doing this interview with you. I know it’s going to be really good. Thank you very much for coming. AM: It’s my pleasure. It’s my pleasure to see [Sarah] and Lois, I haven’t seen you [Lois] in a long time. LJ: We haven’t seen you for years. AM: A long time. SB: So, Lois, you can explain maybe how the interview will go. 1 �LOIS JOHNSON: Yes, I think I said this before, but I’ll repeat myself. These interviews are being done for a book which we are doing, this committee of three plus a couple of other people who aren’t here, for a history of Boston DOB, particularly because there have been many histories of DOB, but most of them have slighted Boston. They have not given any details or given the [00:02:00] credit that’s due to so many people who worked in the early days way into the ‘90s to help advance us as we are advanced now. So, I have with me Ann Maguire, who’s been a woman who’s been so active in everything over the years, and we are privileged to have her come here and help us with this project. Ann, would you begin by giving me some idea of -please excuse me if I am repeating, because I do know you, but for the people who will listen to this, I want them to have the detail -- could you give us some early details about where you were born, where you lived, what your parents were like, what your heritage was like, anything in that regard. AM: I was born and brought up in Worcester, that thriving metropolis [00:03:00] in the heart of Massachusetts. My parents, my family were Irish, and Irish Catholic at that time, and lived in Worcester until I discovered Boston. But I loved Worcester and came to Boston and lived there basically pretty much my whole adult life. I still am part of Boston in ways, even though I now live in Provincetown mainly, and Marblehead. LJ: Both places, Provincetown and Marblehead? AM: Both places. LJ: So, you went to the public schools in Worcester? AM: I went to -- LJ: Or parochial schools? 2 �AM: -- well, I went to Notre Dame Academy for about a year and a quarter until six of us got thrown out because we were driving by the nuns one [00:04:00] night -- you know, when you’re doing foolish things when you’re younger -- and we’re smoking, drinking, and chewing gum, none of which you could do in uniform. (laughter) Anyway, they stopped our car and threw us out. So to make a long story short, I graduated from North High School. And from there I went on, I went to undergraduate [at] Bridgewater State University, and Boston University for graduate school. LJ: What were your majors? AM: My undergraduate major was health and physical education, and my major at Boston University, my master’s, was in health sciences. LJ: I was going to ask you, what were your parents like? Were they very strict with the [00:05:00] children? Or were they more indulgent? AM: I basically just had one brother who was almost eight years older than me. And I think that they just cared that I was okay, that I was happy. My mother, when I was a teenager, said to me, “Do you like that girl?” And I was like, no, what you are talking about, you know, how you go on instant defense big time. And I said, “No, no, I don’t know what you’re talking about.” And there was a bar in Worcester called the Old New Yorker on Main Street, and I used to take my dad to work, and I drove by. And he said to me one day, [00:06:00] “Do you ever go in there?” Now this was before I was obviously of drinking age or anything else. LJ: About how old were you? AM: Probably at that time I was -- LJ: Well, to drive you had to be 16. 3 �AM: -- 17, 18, something like that. And “Oh, no, no, I don’t go in there.” I never heard what he said for the longest time, and what he said was, “I just want you to know it’s okay.” And it was the only gay bar -LJ: That’s wonderful. AM: -- and it was the only gay bar, and because I was on such defense, “No, no, not me.” You know, like when you’re a kid, “Are you smoking?”, “No, not me.” Later, and I’ll say this, and [I’m] proud of this, my brother became head of the education department at Holy Cross. He had his office on the main floor, and he had a gay library for gay students [00:07:00] so that they would know that it was a safe place to stop in there. Because you sort of really didn’t do that, and then as a dean at Holy Cross you didn’t advertise you were whatever. LJ: Open, yeah. AM: But he did several things that I am, to this day, enormously proud of. And he did it to help lesbians and gay men. LJ: Was he gay himself? AM: No. LJ: He wasn’t. AM: No. And so I was very blessed with the family that I had, cause so many of the young people that I knew and I was sort of socializing with, and our community in Worcester, we got to know who each of us were. Some of them had horrible relationships at home [00:08:00], some of their [parents] wanted to throw them out, they wanted to do different things. And at that time, don’t forget, the American Psychological Association said, ‘You’re sick”; the law said, “You’re wrong”; we could go through everything, and it was all negative. And to try and find some place… That’s why when Dick Pillard opened the Homophile Community Health Service, it was 4 �such a welcome asset to the community. A person would come in [and ask,] ‘Who do I talk with?’ In the ‘70s, I was also doing a program called Gay Way on WBUR. LJ: I remember that. AM: And it was a live call-in talk show once a week for an hour. And I would try to have a guest. There weren’t lot of people out to be guests at that time, who were out there talking about… Now I could get [00:09:00] someone from every school to come in. [Then] we would talk about homosexuality in some way. Once we got off the air, the phones would light up. ‘I just need to call and to touch base, just need to talk to you,’ or ‘Am I okay?’ I had a young guy call me and say, “I think I like men, but I’m not sure, I don’t like girly men, drag queens, I don’t think that’s who I am or what.” I eventually told him, “Would you meet me at Sporters next week?” He said, “Sure”. He didn’t know what it was or anything; [I] gave him the address. We go into Sporters, and we [00:10:00] stand there, and all the guys are there. He’s not seeing any sort of girly men, and he is just saying, “I thought we were going to see some gay men.” And so I went, “Hello?” LJ: They’re all gay. (laughter) AM: …And just different people, just needing – ‘Am I not sick?’, am I okay?, [who] just needed a reassurance, just needed someone to talk to. Where else did you call? Where else did you go? Where else? Now we have Ellen DeGeneres, and we have everybody else on TV and movies and whatever; back then we didn’t have that. So it was really a very amazing… but the phone call center would get -- As soon as we would go off the air – [women] that wanted to talk for a minute. LJ: Oh, they did. SB: Were you the host? 5 �AM: Yes. SB: You were it, you were running the show. AM: Yep, host, yep. [00:11:00] LJ: She had a wonderful show. SB: How long did this last? LJ: It started in ’74 to 1980. SB: That’s a long time. LJ: Everybody was just so eager to either be on the program, or to ask a question or whatever. It was really the first one in Boston, [where] people could say something other than “Yes, I’m going to school.” Or whatever. AM: Yep, and it was just to try and say, ‘You’re okay’. Call, call in! ‘[If] you don’t want to do it while we’re on the air, I’m here for a little while afterwards, call in.’ And I’m telling you the lines would just light up. And I would get guests in those days that -- in some cases it was hard - because [00:12:00] they didn’t have a lot of places to refer to, or a lot of places to [go to], but we would just talk, and they would love it. LJ: Everybody did. LAURA CATANZARO: Sometimes it just takes one connection to save you, to save your life, and certainly DOB was that for some women. AM: It was that for some women. They would come in the first time and be like looking at all these women sitting around the room [and say,]’It’s okay, I think it’s okay, and is everybody here?’ LJ: It was amazing. 6 �AM: Or others said, ‘Hey, how you doing, I play sports with you,’ or I play, whatever, which was a big connection back then, sports for women. [00:13:00] LJ: How did you learn about DOB, Ann? AM: I think I learned about it -- back then there was a group of lesbians around, you know from around Elaine’s time, which was ’74 and on. Any time something was happening or something was being — when did — LJ: DOB came online in —- well, the early DOB came around 1969; then it really got organized in the ‘70s, and Sheri and I came in around ’71 or ’72. AM: That’s what I was saying, the beginning, yeah. LJ: Yeah, at the very beginning. AM: And with the little organization of lesbians that I knew at that [time] you would meet -- LJ: Personal friends. AM: -- personal friends, and then they would know somebody else, [00:14:00] so it got enlarged by one, and then that person would know somebody else that could enlarge [the group]. And it was, ‘What’s DOB going to be, where’s it going to meet, who is it, how do you find out about it, is anybody going to know about it?’ There were a lot of women that still wanted DOB to be private. LJ: Be a secret society. AM: Yep, be a secret society. In those days that’s what a lot of it was. It was an interesting time back then. LJ: It certainly was. Now you had a connection with the Homophile Community Health Service? AM: I did. 7 �LJ: Could you talk about that a little bit? AM: Back then Dick Pillard -- there wasn’t a lot of lesbian and gay doctors, lawyers who were out, and people from -- [00:15:00] [who] wanted to do this group. Part of it [was] to be [a place] where if you just had questions, if you just wanted to meet somebody, if you just wanted to talk, to have some folks, [you could]. You didn’t need to be a shrink and enroll everybody for so many sessions, but just to be there. And I was one of those people. So when you came in, I might, just like the young gentleman I took to Sporters -- he was fine once he figured out there’s men at Sporters. (laughs) Or others just to reassure them. So that was one of the things I was doing. He (Pillard) was trying to do more if folks needed to really meet with somebody and talk to a shrink. [They] probably were thinking they were really not healthy or whatever. [00:16:00] I’ve met many people over the years that have come back and said, ‘Thank you for that, and thank you for Gay Way,’ cause that was their connection. They could listen to Gay Way in the house, you could in those days [put] little earphones into the phone, or the car, or whatever, and it was a connection. LJ: It certainly was. AM: So I think of all the things I’ve done in my life -- LJ: That had the most impact. AM: Yeah. LJ: Yeah, wonderful. Could you describe the office where it was held? AM: Oh my gosh. LJ: 419 Boylston. AM: Thank you. (laughs) LJ: I have my own stories about 419 Boylston. 8 �AM: Boylston. I did [00:17:00] -- One of the things I also did too was to go out and speak to different places. There was a clipping I had of me going to speak in Worcester for the Homophile Community Health Service just telling folks in Worcester who they were, and [if] you needed something come on down, and whatever. LJ: It was an office on the fourth floor as I remember. AM: Mm-hm. LJ: And it was the first place where DOB had the opportunity to meet with people, and have a rap. AM: Well, in later years every -- you had something going every day, a running group today, and a this group the next day, it would be this is on Tuesday, and this is on Wednesday, and DOB became very active over time [00:18:00] just doing stuff all different days of the week to try and reach out and help women, and give them -LJ: To give people a chance. AM: -- Yeah, to meet and to do stuff. LJ: What other things did you do -- or first, let me go back a little bit, you were so fortunate to have parents who were not judgmental, but when did you first feel romantic attachments to women, and sort of what did you do about it, and who was your first person that you got close to? AM: I started feeling romantic attachments once I -- thinking the woman was [00:19:00] interesting, attractive, I was whatever -- couldn’t quite figure out what it was, to eventually make a big step. I did that with a woman, a nurse from Worcester. And [this is] sort of an interesting story in a way, that she had a brother who was mentally retarded, and every day her father used to say to her, “I wish it was you and not your brother.” And she turned to alcohol and had been 9 �drinking. To make a long story short, she jumped in Jamaica Pond [00:20:00] one day. I had said [to myself] ‘Call the shrink,’ about a week and a half before, and said to her, ‘I think she’s really pretty suicidal.’ ‘Dear, I’m the psychiatrist, I would know if she was suicidal.’ So, it’s a good thing when this next conversation happened that she was not close by. I told her that she had died, and she said, ‘Now, dear, if you would ever like to come in and talk to me…’ (laughter) LC: No way. LJ: Oh my God. AM: So I made it a habit of telling the world. LC: Steer clear. AM: Steer clear of this woman. LJ: Yes, indeedy-do. AM: So anyways, she was the first person. I’ve had some different [00:21:00] partners along the way. I met my present partner Harriet about 35 years ago, and so she came as a package deal, two daughters. They eventually brought home two wonderful guys, thank God, [and we have] four grandkids who are all absolutely supportive of us. Ben, the oldest, wrote his college admission about his two gay grandmothers. LJ: Wonderful. LC: That’s great. AM: And so, that’s my life now. But I totally appreciate that because of what the kids do, and what all of the friends I have now, I’ve been very blessed [00:22:00] with friends,[and] have a very large extended family. But anyway, going back to the first person. The first person was Pat, and how I came out -LJ: How did you manage it? 10 �AM: I was into bowling at that time, really into bowling, ten-pin bowling had hit Massachusetts. So I was bowling and really doing well. I went to a bowling tournament, and these two women came in late, and one of them is changing into a bowling shirt, and she’s got a t-shirt underneath. Most women don’t have t-shirts on, and I made it a point to go over and meet them and talk with them. And about a week and half later, driving down the main street of Worcester, they pull up next to me, and said, [00:23:00] ‘Hi, hi, we waved. Hey, want to go get a drink?’ ‘Sure.’ Was I of age? Absolutely not. Had I ever been at a bar before. No. None of those things. LJ: How old were you? AM: But anyway, I followed them -- LJ: About 16? Or 17? AM: I was 17 going on 18 I think at that time, probably going on 18 cause it was bowling. To make a long story short, so I followed them, we go to the New Yorker, park, go in, and we’re sitting there. They knew a bunch of the women there, and so they’re saying hi, and introducing me, and I’m busy meeting all these folks and everything. And the waiter comes over and says to everybody, ‘What do you want?’ [She] comes to me and goes, ‘What do you want to drink?’ I’ve never ordered anything, but never mind that, ‘A beer’. Brings over a beer, and now I’m fascinated because here I am, sitting in a bar, [00:24:00] underage, getting a beer, being served. I’m sitting there, and all of the sudden I start -LJ: Looking around. AM: -- looking around. And talking to all these women, but looking around, and then I realize all of these women are with women, and all of these men are with men. And I made it a point to 11 �meet as many as I could, cause I knew I was going to come back, and I did the next night. (laughter) And that was my coming out. LJ: Really? That’s interesting. AM: Yep, that was my coming out. LJ: That’s wonderful. At least there was a bar, at least there was some place. AM: One bar, that’s right. LJ: Not that it was the best place maybe to be, but at least you saw some people. AM: At least I was in the right sport, doing bowling, where [00:25:00] there were other lesbians. LC: And they must have had a little inkling about you, like this is a baby dyke who will become a lesbian. AM: I think they would not have necessarily taken someone who was super straight to the New Yorker; they had an inkling. But for me that was how it happened, and it was as wonderful as it could be. LJ: How did you happen to come to Boston? AM: I was going to college. And I was with Pat. LJ: Where did you get your other degree at college in Boston? AM: Undergraduate I went to Bridgewater. LJ: Yeah, Bridgewater. AM: Now it’s Bridgewater State University, used to be Bridgewater State College. [00:26:00] I had, after high school, gone into a surgical technician program where you work in the OR. Doctor says ‘Scalpel,’ you give him a scalpel. So you’re called a surgical technician. And so, I was doing that. If they had emergency surgery and needed staff, I could take calls on the 12 �weekend. But I had started taking a course at one of the local colleges, or whatever, cause I knew someday I wanted to go to college and finish it. So I was doing that. I decided [to] go on. I can do college classes full-time and take calls on the weekends. I was with Pat, and Pat was a nurse, [00:27:00] as I had said before. LJ: Like a nurse practitioner. (There were no nurse practitioners at that time.) AM: She was a nurse, and we moved to Boston. I could take classes, she could work to whatever, and so, that’s how we got here. It was wonderful. I loved Boston. SB: You probably maybe thought it was going to be more open, and you’d be meeting more people in Boston. AM: I think that, but I think it was also she wanted to go. [There was]a hospital she wanted to work at. I think [I] probably [wanted] to get away from Worcester and home. LJ: This was the first person. AM: Yes. And yep, that’s how I go to Boston. LJ: And you’ve done a lot of things in your life, and [you’ve made] a lot of [00:28:00] contributions to the gay community. Could you talk about one of your major things that you did, which was the bar in the financial district in Boston? AM: Somewhere. LJ: Somewhere in Boston. (laughter) AM: Somewhere in Boston. A friend of mine, Bob White, who ran the 1270 and other bars, the two years before that in Provincetown -- had said to me, “Would you ever like to do a summer bar?” I was teaching at that time at Northeastern. And I said, “Oh sure, run a lesbian bar in Provincetown in the summer? Yeah, I think I’d like to do that.” So, I did Sisters for two years in Provincetown. And then he said to me, “Would you like to do a lesbian bar in Boston?” 13 �[00:29:00] So, I went in and resigned from teaching, and we worked on creating this space called Somewhere. I loved the name I chose because [of the song] “Somewhere there’s a place for us.” LJ: And always when people were walking around, they’d say, “We have to go somewhere; well, where are we going?” AM: I did that also [so] you wouldn’t have to say -- if you were with friends – ‘the real name of the lesbian…’ “Where you going to go tonight?” “Oh, Somewhere.” That was it. I loved Somewhere. [I] started it in ’77, and for so many women -- like those that came back for the reunion and other times -- it was a place to go and be okay. [00:30:00] I’ll give you an example of one of the things I loved that we did at Somewhere. Several lesbians came in, they were deaf, they go up to the bar and they asked for a piece of paper and a pen to write an order. And I’m thinking, if something happens to them, what are they going to do, ask for a piece of paper and a pen if something happens. We have to figure out how to communicate with them. There was a woman there I knew who taught sign language, and I said [to her], “Would you teach sign language to us to at least get a name or something, some finger spelling and whatever.” She said, “Sure.” So, I made it mandatory for the bartenders and waiters, waitresses. I said [00:31:00] to the women who was sitting at the bar, “Any of you interested in doing a little sign language?” “Oh yeah, I’ll take that class.” (laughter) And we had 40 in our first class. SB: Wow. LJ: Wonderful. AM: So, here is this group that came in all the time like this. All of a sudden now the women are coming over. (laughter) The group just opened up, literally opened up. Patty, who was this deaf woman, who was sort of the leader of the pack, has talked about how much that meant to 14 �them. I have her filmed on this too. There was this whole other world that opened up to them, all of these other women, to just be able to walk in, who wanted to talk with them, and back and forth. [00:32:00] We did lots of things. We brought in anybody running for political office. [They] had to tell us who [they] were and what [they] were all about. LJ: DOB had its birthday there. AM: Yeah, [we] had parties. We had two women who got married; their whole families came. Upstairs they were doing the -- (inaudible) [singing] “The bride cuts the cake.” I’m like oh my God. (laughter) It was a space that was just interesting. Just before Thanksgiving, a woman came to me and said, “You know, a lot of us can’t go home together for Thanksgiving, and we just [want to] do a little something here and get together.” So I said, “Okay, but you have to understand, [if] you’re going to be [00:33:00] here, you have to help [to] either shop, cook, clean, serve, do something, the whole party.” And we had about 90 women that came and loved it; they had a place to go as opposed to not having a place to go. And [we] just did many things over time at Somewhere. We had a woman who was a resident at Rosie’s Place, basically, who came one night, and I realized [that] cause I had met Harriet at Rosie’s Place. Harriet was on the team that ran Rosie’s Place, and I volunteered there. So I sort of knew Rosie’s Place. Anyway, this woman came in, and sat [down] and I said, “Would you like a cup of coffee or tea or a drink or something?” So I gave her a drink. She [saw it was] time to go, cause you have to be at Rosie’s by a certain time, or you did back then, to get a bed for the night. She goes, “Well, I need to get back to -- I said, “Are you going to Rosie’s Place?” She said, “Yeah, I’m going to Rosie’s Place.” Okay, so I call a cab. On the way out in those days you had cigarette machines in the lobby. I don’t have any cigarettes, okay, so we get her a pack of cigarettes, take her out to the car, [and] she’s in the cab. I said to the cab driver, “You’re taking her to Rosie’s Place, we 15 �know your number, and you better show up there.” So, she would come once in a while. And the women who sort of hung out, this crew on the bar, sort of got to know her, [00:35:00] whatever. To make a long story short, she died. And I let people know that she had died, and there was sort of a wake for her. And I said, “But there’s no flowers.” These big, old, hardened dykes [gave her] flowers. It was interesting what people did. LJ: And do. AM: And do, in all of the different -- LC: Concurrently when signing was happening at Somewhere, there were concerts with signing going on. I had never been to a concert that had signing going on until I went to women’s music. It seems like ‘Okay, if it’s happening here, the energy for it to [00:36:00] happen, or even the openness for it to happen in a bar, there’s a sort of concurrent enlightenment going on in sort of particular eras,’ let’s say, and this was the early ’70s, mid-’70s? AM: It opened in ’77. LC: ’77, so late-70s. Wow. I think women started a lot of things that then later on got into mainstream, even language, politically correct, PC, we were using it way before the mainstream. AM: Absolutely. LC: Something like that: you’ve got to sign so that people who don’t hear can understand you. AM: Yep. It was amazing some of the women that started at Somewhere, some of the musicians. We had lots of women’s music. Tracy Chapman. SB: Right. LJ: Yeah. LC: When she was at Tufts, she was in Boston. AM: Yep. 16 �SB: Do you remember a band, Liberty Standing? A friend of mine played in that, and she said she was at Somewhere. AM: She might have been, absolutely might have been. We had Carol and the Burgundies. Oh my God. Two women with Carol in the middle, little Carol dyke in the middle. LJ: Then there was, oh, what were the ones that were -- Sheri could remember the names, but we had two different women’s bands where we were fundraising for OLE. AM: Yep, we had lots of women’s music there, it was wonderful. LJ: That was a wonderful thing that you did there. I remember the physical location on Franklin Street, and the fact that it was the whole building, wasn’t it? AM: Yeah, a couple floors plus obviously downstairs too. LC: What had the building been before [00:38:00] you got it? AM: It had been a bar that was some strange straight bar. LC: And the fact that the Saints was just around the corner. AM: Sure. LC: The financial district in Boston is teeny, but was there -- Oh, there’s this big huge space, wonderful space around the corner, was that part of the thinking of your financial partner? AM: I think it was a space that you could sort of be ]in] at night and hopefully not get -- a little bit more of a private space. So, the Saints was here, we were here, and there was a little bar that started around the corner. LJ: There was another one, I don’t remember what it was. AM: Down here called the whatever, I forget what it’s called, started over there. Didn’t last too long, but it started over there. [00:39:00] And the Saints was very different. You walked in, you could get a beer and a mug and walk -- they didn’t have dancing. It was one level, it was 17 �smaller. Somewhere was very different in that it was two levels, and we had a little kitchen; we would serve different kinds of food at night, on Sundays we would do who knows. LC: And you had champagne on New Year’s Eve. AM: We had champagne on New Year’s Eve. LC: A fountain of it. AM: Yes. And we had a DJ upstairs, and lots of dancing. And for many of the women that was the highlight to be able to go up and dance. It had [a] pool table, pinball machines, all kinds of stuff. I had [00:40:00] known someone at the district police station who I could talk to. What I wanted was not [to] have hassles by the cops; to tell them who we were, what we were doing, and if they had any issues, come talk to me, or I would go talk to them. If there was some jerk that came in, I wanted to be able to call the sector car and have them stop by. And [I] became good friends with them cause they loved it; they knew we were fine. So if I had a couple jerks that came in and wanted to do whatever, I would call them up and say -- I forget, it was like car number 46 or something, “Stop by.” They would stop by and here’s some jerk inside going blah, blah, and the cop would just go over and tap them on the shoulder.(laughter) [00:41:00] That would stop that. SB: That would be it. AM: So, yeah. LJ: Did you have much interruptions like that? AM: No, [we] had just one time. There were a group of young people that had been out on one of the boats; they used to have little rides around the water, and a lot of them would be drinking, a lot of them [under]age. And one night some of the women had motorcycles and they came by, and they were going to toss the cycles over. 18 �LJ: Because we’re dealing with the whole situation. Still it was illegal. [Damage to the bikes.] AM: Yeah. But you just [00:42:00] did what you had to do. LJ: You helped so many people with that for a place to go. AM: Well, that’s what I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be a safe space. LJ: Ann, you’ve had many other aspects to your career, you worked for Mayor Menino at one point -- would you give us a little bit more about Gay Way also, because that was a wonderful initial outreach to the whole gay community. You told us some things, but how did you begin it? AM: I knew Elaine Noble. We were sort of part of the same small group. LJ: Would you explain -- AM: Elaine [00:43:00] was thinking of running for state representative, and to make a long story short, she asked me if I would run her campaign, so I ran her campaign. And at the same time, BU had this radio program that we could do. Well, she couldn’t really do it running for state rep. So she said [to me], “How would you like to do Gay Way?” Well, that’s how I got to do Gay Way. LJ: Keeping busy. AM: Yep. And [I] ran Elaine’s campaign. And I will say we made history: the first time in the United States that a lesbian, or a gay man, was elected to a statewide office. LJ: What year was that, Ann? AM: November of 1974. And generally at a [00:44:00] local state rep race, you just have the local media there. We had ABC, NBC, CBS, I mean, everybody was there cause of [this] making history. 19 �SB: What was it like running the campaign for Elaine? Can you talk about that? AM: I had never run a campaign before, but I knew you need to at least win by one. And I also knew, and this was my mantra that I used for Menino and others, you have to work hard, you have to really want it, and be out there working. We went to every building, every apartment place, we knocked on everybody’s [door]. LJ: In the Fenway particularly. AM: In the Fenway, in particular, in the bottom heart of [00:45:00] BU. And [people said], “You’re running cause you’re a lesbian?” “No, yes, I am a lesbian, but I’m running because I think we need this in here, and this, and this, and this, and that’s what I’m going to do. Here’s what I want to do.” And come election night we won. But we literally outworked everybody. Everybody else thought they were going to win because [there’s] just a big old lesbian in the race. But we kept on it. And I also probably was someone who said to a volunteer, “How many doors did you knock [on] tonight? [00:46:00] Well, no, what about these two? ‘Well, I didn’t do them.’ “When are you going to do them?” We had lots of volunteers. LJ: You had your office in the Fenway. AM: Yes, on Kilmarnock Street. We went out there, and we worked and worked hard. I kept in the office every place where we’d gone, where we didn’t go, what we needed to do, and we did it. LJ: You had a lot of volunteers. AM: Yes, wonderful volunteers who wanted nothing more than to see Elaine elected. And so it was wonderful. LJ: That was really quite an accomplishment. [00:47:00] AM: Do you want me to talk about other politicians? (laughter) 20 �LJ: You’ve spoken about Daughters of Bilitis, but could you give us sort of a rundown as to what other things you were involved in [in] Daughters of Bilitis? The other thing --was it helpful to you in any particular way, or would you have just a few words to say about the organization as it was? AM: I think DOB was really a welcome haven for women who really needed some place to go where there were other women that they could talk with, they could socialize, they could play. They had different stuff that they did at different days of the week, [00:48:00] exercises, this and that. I think for many women it was really a haven. It was going there and just knowing there were other women there, just knowing that women were doing stuff. ‘Let’s go bowling tonight, we’re going bowling, just doing regular stuff, having others talk about who they were, what they were doing, what they had done, and whatever…’ Where else do you find that? I think sometimes we only think of whatever DOB did, but a lot of what DOB did was just being in the chair next to the person and knowing that they were there. LJ: That you were okay, [00:49:00] that you weren’t crazy, or that you weren’t defective in some way. AM: Yep, yep. SB: Did you do any of the rap groups, did you lead any of the rap groups? AM: No. SB: But you were in them? AM: I did go to a few here and there, whenever, yeah. I think that DOB had many pieces, not all big pieces, but every one of them made DOB and was important. I really mean that. And the thing that happened I thought with California, there was more in-fighting and different stuff. LJ: Yeah, it was. 21 �AM: [We]didn’t have it over here. This was really all about being there and being okay for each other. [00:50:00] LJ: Thank you for that. Ann, you’ve done many other things in your life. Is there anything in particular that you would like to talk [about] or enlarge upon that we’ve talked about this afternoon? AM: Well, I finished Somewhere, [I] sort of turned it over to Leslie McGrath, who was a friend of mine, and went to work for the City of Boston. Ray Flynn was the newly elected mayor, and he needed a liaison [to] the lesbian and gay community. I applied and never thought I was going to get it cause I had supported Mel King who was his opponent. But low and behold, he said, “Okay, you’re the liaison here.” [00:51:00] (laughter) And it was good cause I got to do lots of stuff and help people, bring City Hall out to people and make it work for them, and I really enjoyed that. LJ: Was that the first time there had been a liaison? AM: No, under Kevin White. LJ: I guess there was one under Kevin. AM: [It] started out with Robin McCormick. LJ: I remember Robin. AM: At that time there was a lot of issues within the gay male community, a lot of violence, different things, and no one was really working with the police to solve them because they were afraid of the police. The police, on one hand, was grabbing them out of bars, and you know what I mean, trying to -LJ: Jumping them into the -- 22 �AM: -- yeah, but anyway, Robin was able to go and get them [00:52:00] to talk with him, and to talk with the police. Brian McNaught came in and was sort of for Kevin White, and he was very different. Kevin White was very different as to his approach. He wanted everything checked: what was going on, whereas with Ray Flynn, he was sort of like – ‘Hey, you’re the expert.’ LJ: You take it, you do it. (laughter) AM: You do it. And [I] got to do lots of stuff. And then [there was] Tom Menino, who I think the world of. I first really met him [00:53:00] when he was a city councilor. At that time I was doing the city AIDS committee. AIDS at that time was just coming to light – ‘What is this disease? And what are we doing?’ So, we made a committee. I went to him, and I had to go to all the different city councilors, and ask them, ‘we want to do a needle exchange.’ ‘Oh, not in my neighborhood, oh, no, no, oh, no…’ I went to [Tom] and I said, “We want to do a needle exchange.” He said, “Does it save lives?” I said, “We think it does.” “Okay.” LJ: Yeah, that was Mayor Menino. AM: That was it. LC: And this was for Roslindale. AM: Yes. LC: That was his district. [00:54:00] AM: Hyde Park/Roslindale, yeah. And just different things. I don’t know if you know I ran his campaign for mayor, and he won. When I started it, he was in fifth place. He was a city councilor; some of the other councilors were Rosaria Solarno, Bobby Rufo, and others. Anyway, come September and come November, he came in first. [I] really thought the world of him. Before [November’s election], we chose not to march in the St. Patrick’s Day parade because 23 �they didn’t allow lesbians and gay men. [00:55:00] So he gets elected mayor in November, and the phone calls start. The mayor has to march in the St. Patrick’s Day parade. I hear this, and I go down [to see him]in February, and I said, “I hear you’re getting a lot of phone calls around St. Patrick.” [He said,]“Didn’t I tell you I wasn’t marching in that parade?” (laughter) I said, “Yes.” Oh, and guess what parade he led that year? LC: Gay Pride. SB: Gay Pride. LJ: Gay Pride parade. LC: Wow, and this was ’70? AM: No. LC: No, ‘80? AM: No. SB: No, way -- AM: ’80 -- LJ: It was early 80s I think. AM: [00:56:00] ’90 -- no, it was ’95. ’94, ’93, ’92, ’91, somewhere in around there. And he was one of the few people I had ever met, a politician, that I knew I could count [on] when they said something. It wasn’t like we’ll see which way the wind’s blowing today. LJ: Which way is the wind blowing now. SB: Right, you really trusted him. AM: I did. And he was a good, good man. And so I was blessed to have met him. LJ: In the 80s, the beginning of the AIDS crisis, you were involved in doing other things to alleviate [00:57:00] that problem, weren’t you? Would you like to speak to that a little bit? 24 �AM: We were certainly doing a lot over at Boston City Hospital. Big news, we wanted to [have] an AIDS ward because instead of having someone with AIDS on the fourth floor over here, and someone with AIDS over there, [we wanted] to try and consolidate how we were doing services. How we could best help and serve people who were HIV positive. That was one of the things that we did. We did a lot [with] the young people. As a matter of fact in Provincetown there were a lot of young men, especially men with AIDS, who didn’t have any place to [00:58:00] stay. The Foley House had AIDS housing in Provincetown. We tried to do that. We had some elderly housing in different places [where] we could really make it work [in] services we could get. [We asked ourselves], what kind of money could we bring in from the federal government, how it could be used for research, for this, for that, what is it that we could be doing as a city to combat this AIDS crisis. Education, who did we have to educate, where would that happen, would it be [in]schools. Just the whole spectrum of looking at this brand new disease, and how we’re going to confront it, what we’re going to do. [00:59:00] LJ: Ann, you’ve given us a wonderful interview. Is there anything else that you would like to speak to? AM: It certainly was fun going to meetings at your house. (laughter) LJ: How well I remember when we won, question mark, a television set, if you have to remember that. AM: Yes. LJ: Which resided on Barden and Johnson’s top floor for many a year, until it suddenly (inaudible) SB: What was that about now? 25 �LJ: I remember you in our kitchen with an illegal bar that we had, where we were dispensing all kinds of drinks, particular beer, while people were paying prices that were helping us to gather money for Elaine. [01:00:00] I don’t know how much we gathered, but we had a hell of a lot of fun. (laughter) That was fun. AM: We did indeed. LJ: And you did come to some of [the] other open houses, too. Along with [a] hundred other people. AM: Yep. LJ: Indeed. Is there anything that my cohorts here would like to know about? SB: I was just interested in this, you worked with these three men, these three mayors, and here you are, a lesbian. And I’m just curious…do you feel like you might have had them look at things from a different perspective? I mean, I know Mayor Menino was wonderful, [01:01:00] but like Kevin White and Ray Flynn. AM: I didn’t work for Kevin White. SB: You didn’t work for him? AM: No. SB: Ray Flynn was something else though. I mean, he was -- AM: Do you know I got him to march in a Gay Pride parade heading up to the State House back over to City Hall, just that little piece, but he did it. SB: But he did it. AM: And the other thing is, he didn’t want to get involved. He felt if I’ve hired you, you should be able to figure this out. LJ: Work on your own. 26 �AM: Get it done, and whatever. SB: He was like that with everybody then. It wasn’t just you. AM: That’s correct. SB: Right, okay. AM: You know, there’s a [01:02:00] lot of stuff that you do that’s not really public. We need to help this person, or we need to do this, [to] really trying to make City Hall work. A lot of that was able to be done. He became a head of the U.S. Conference of Mayors Task Force on Hunger and Homelessness. He came back and moved me out of that position into doing all of the hunger and homeless programs for the city, which I loved doing. And part of it’s fun. Come Christmas I had to make sure I knew [01:03:00] who had had a fire a couple days before, and they had kids, and I had to have presents for everybody because Christmas morning he would call and say, “Meet me at whatever.” So I’d go Christmas morning and have all the presents, and he’d get out of his car, and I’d give him the presents, and [there] just happened to be Channel 5 and Channel 4 there watching us walk up to the doors. I was able to do a lot at that time. LJ: Was that with Mayor Menino? AM: No, that was with Ray Flynn. [01:04:00] One of the things you do is you learn how to get stuff done. It doesn’t all have to be balloons and whatever to get stuff done. And it was okay. And with Tom, Ann Maguire, lesbian, is going to now run Tom Menino’s campaign, just in case you didn’t know before. That’s how the press release went out. SB: We always liked that guy. (laughs) LC: That did so much with one phrase. LJ: It did. Are there any other things that you would like to speak about? Cause if you do, we would welcome any -27 �AM: There are many people that did a lot [01:05:00] during the years. We don’t know their names, we don’t know all that they [did], but they did stuff. Even if it was just coming to [the] Homophile Community Health Service, sitting there in case somebody came in, [and] being able to talk with them. There were so many people that did something, and whether it was to ask their neighbors for a vote for the Gay Rights bill, to make sure their rep, their senator, voted for it. It was never one person. It was really just this absolutely glorious group, whether it was DOB or some of the other groups that came on, that made it okay. [01:06:00] Absolutely made it okay for others. LJ: For all the young people, or who were young at that time. AM: Oh God, do I remember back? (laughter) LJ: Dancing around. AM: Yeah. LC: I have a little postscript question. It seems that most of the big things you did [were] because you said yes to them, you said yes, I’ll run somewhere, or yes, I’ll be the liaison, even if you haven’t done it before, you say yes on the big level. And then the little yes, like let’s try this, and you do it. And then okay, now the next bite, or the next step. And [I’m] just wondering in a way philosophically in your life, in this lifetime, [01:07:00] you have done so much, what is going to happen in the, let’s say, near future in terms of being a senior lesbian now, and what would you say you’ve learned in this lifetime? AM: I think the thing that I know is that we can’t stop. Just because the Supreme Court said, ‘Okay, now you can get married.’ Okay, what’s going to happen with the next judge or two that comes in. It’s only going to take a vote or two to change what happens. [01:08:00] We see the 28 �Methodist Church wanting to divide now, and what are they going to do? There’s stuff happening all of the time, so it’s not like here we are, okay, let’s sit down in a little chair and -SB: Congratulate ourselves. LJ: It’s never a fait accompli. AM: It’s not, and we need to understand that there are people that are involved in all those other scenarios. I mean, look at what happens to lesbians and gay men in Uganda, gone. What is happening? You know what I’m saying? So, it’s not like there isn’t something. There’s not necessarily something right here at this moment in Boston, but there is stuff that’s happening. And I think for us to always be involved politically. [01:09:00] I just want people to vote because your vote means something. Even if it’s voting in a meeting, it doesn’t have to be a political vote, it just has to [show] care about what’s happening. LJ: Participation. AM: Yes, participation. SB: I mean, did you read about the abortion clinic in the globe that’s low on funds, and they don’t know if they’re going to make it or not, I mean, in Massachusetts. AM: Yep. SB: That’s the kind of thing, who would guess, but you know. Can I just ask you about one -- AM: You can ask me anything. (laughter) SB: -- when did you decide to sort of -- I don’t know if you consider yourself retired, but when did you decide to leave Boston, or go to the Cape? [01:10:00] Did you leave a job and then just retire? AM: In ’95 I resigned from the City of Boston, and my partner Harriet and I bought a place in Provincetown that we’ve run all these years. It’s [the] Bayshore and Chandler House. There are 29 �two properties, and we oversee it. I have an amazing staff that’s been there with me for 23 years now. I treasure them. Anyway, we do that. SB: That’s like a B&B? AM: They’re all individual units, [01:11:00] individual condos, yes. They’re not just a bedroom, they’re a full unit. We have a place in Marblehead, because as I mentioned, Harriet came as a package deal, two daughters. Both of those families are in Marblehead, so we need to be in Marblehead too. But on the Cape there is a group called HOW, Helping Our Women, that I’m on the board of. LJ: What’s the name? AM: HOW, Helping Our Women. We do lots of things. The biggest thing that we do is get people to the doctor. Cape Cod Hospital is in Hyannis, and obviously [a] Boston Hospital is here. A lot of the [01:12:00] women that we see have been waitresses or chambermaids, they’ve retired, they have social security, period. They don’t drive, they don’t have a car. So how do you get to the doctor, even if it’s to Outer Cape Health Services? The big thing we have [is] wonderful volunteers. You tell me you can volunteer Wednesday morning, okay, do we have anybody that needs to go to the doctor on Wednesday morning? We have a woman who lives in Truro, doesn’t drive, if she takes a cab to go to Stop N Shop to get her groceries, that’s her -SB: Pretty damn expensive. AM: -- that’s her food money. So I have a volunteer that goes and picks her up like once a week on a Wednesday morning or whatever, drives her there, she does her shopping, she either reads her book in the car, or does her own shopping, [01:13:00] helps her, takes her home. So that money that she has from her Social Security can go to food as opposed to a cab. Just little things. We have a relationship with Cape Air. Doctor says to the person, you need to go to 30 �Boston, you might as well tell them they need to go to Cleveland. So we get you to the airport in Provincetown, they get you to Boston to Logan, we have someone pick you up and take you to Mass General or wherever you need to go. So you don’t have to worry about it. Say for instance you have breast cancer, and you need to start radiation, you’re going to go five days a week, every morning. Now that’s five different volunteers, or one who will do it for the week, or whatever. Can you imagine trying to [01:14:00] get a cab every day? There are some rides that are arranged for the lower part of the Cape, and other parts that if we get you to Wellfleet, the bus takes you from Wellfleet to Hyannis or wherever you need to go. So there’s some of that, but we do a lot of volunteer driving. You don’t have any oil, we will pay to fill the oil tank, not give you the money, but pay the oil [company]. Doctor says you need vitamins or something, you don’t have health coverage for that, we call Stop N Shop, they give you those, and we pay Stop N Shop. We also have a stipend program. [01:15:00] Once a month a check for $65. We do lots of that stuff. You come in, you need something, sit down and relax. We also have a little food pantry at the HOW office. We have different stuff so that when you come in, no one goes in and checks, ‘hey, you took three cans of soup’, you know what I mean? Just go in and take what you need. That’s what I love about it because it makes a difference. SB: These little things really are huge. AM: To these women. Yeah. SB: And do you get a lot of grants? AM: We get some grants. We take no state or federal funds just because we don’t want to be ever told -LJ: You can’t do this. SB: You can’t do it anymore. 31 �AM: -- you can’t do it, and who you can serve, and whatever. LJ: That’s wonderful, Ann. AM: It’s all volunteers. We [have] parties, and [01:16:00] fundraisers. That’s how we do it. LJ: We’ve been talking about people who are generous; we have been very fortunate to have a large grant from an individual who had been in DOB. Did you know Jenny at the time? She was, I think, on her way to transiting at that point, but none of us knew anything. SB: Jenny Sullivan. AM: Oh yeah. LJ: You knew Jenny? She and her partner gave us a $10,000 grant to work on this. So, we are indeed grateful. AM: Please tell them I said thank you. LJ: I will. AM: I love HOW, I love how it works. Doing the stuff that makes [a] life difference, makes life okay for you today. [01:17:00] And it’s a good board. LJ: That’s good. Wonderful. SB: And you never retired. LJ: You haven’t retired. AM: That’s my little thing that I work on now. SB: Little thing. LC: Well, good to know about it. LJ: It is indeed. AM: It is. And the Cape can be lonely. 32 �LJ: I was thinking of that because the windswept dunes in December are a little -- you feel somewhat lost, unless you have a purpose in life, which you definitely have. Well, Ann, thank you so much. AM: My pleasure. LJ: We really appreciate it because you’ve been an enormous part of the gay community for so many years, and we appreciate everything you’ve done [01:18:00], thank you. AM: Well, thank you. And I appreciate all that you’ve done. LJ: Thank you. AM: I mean, seriously. I was in your house how many times? LJ: Probably at least 50. AM: Yep, absolutely. SB: I just want to say it’s really been wonderful to talk to you. AM: And you. SB: Yeah, it’s just been a privilege really to meet someone like you. You never stopped. LJ: No, you never stopped. And you’re still not stopping. AM: And what are you doing? It’s a privilege to meet you too. SB: Well, I’m sitting here talking to you, and I’ve been doing that for about 20 years. LJ: She’s our expert. AM: Good, good, good. LJ: Who would have thought that when we started this that we would have the wonderful presence of somebody who knows how to interview, who instructs you. [01:19:00] SB: The two of us, the three of us. LC: Well, Sarah was the oral historian for the City of Cambridge for a number of years. 33 �SB: Yeah, I did five books on the neighborhoods. Actually one book on World War II and the home front. LJ: You gave me a book which is huge. SB: Oh, the last book on Area Four, the Port, yeah. LJ: The City of Cambridge. SB: Central Square, East Cambridge. AM: I remember -- SB: Can I ask -- AM: -- certainly Rose, what was the women’s bookstore? SB: New Words. AM: New Words. And then what was the women’s -- SB: Oh, the restaurant Bread and Roses? LC: Bread and Roses and Amaranth. SB: Modern Times. AM: Bread and Roses. SB: Bread and Roses. LC: And now it’s an opposite kind of name, Daddy O’s, but the chef is a woman. [01:20:00] The owner of that restaurant is a woman. But it’s very expensive cause it’s very good. LJ: And can I mine your memory a little more? AM: Oh, see if I know any of these people. LJ: If you know any of these people. SB: I’m just going to shut this off. Thank you, Ann. AM: You’re welcome. 34 �END OF ANN MAGUIRE FILE 35 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Maguire, Ann Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ann Maguire, 2020 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-01-13 Description An account of the resource Interview with Ann Maguire for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Maguire, Ann; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/e510c84400ff96a11e316e2a99376061.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=OSmU-6NClzFeegLTIQajrOI4RNxUhBx-ZnCgprbSLkvkrcFXpX3VDSFym7aJR2sHWRRNeXDXwq5ldTt%7ERFCPHz4n6vPOgPDK%7Ev68jwHrjkipwalsA50Pw9Icwz5kXkKz2N44GwZ2OwWKpje%7EgHHg7q1JzH9CHq3fccuodlzRcO00B%7EZpK%7EMwtgE7pm%7EEgsX2kdd9Pj-1Pe16GUxkIYRyCTRmndIU1ipF0r5xzrY96Q%7Eyu1PedmuEUbMO9pHz%7Eerrsg1acnDwFxaSHs4NVFOIJlY2EmCvkKi5nWP1SPOt9JNeON4bsWT2d1kgJM7x5%7E0gcPWaK9Bd5GZWlnHY%7EO3vBQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 749c4ef14fc986d27da71882d43604be https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/a07ac60b16a1d232d841332046109e1d.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=MtZ7o9-AZkio1umxsUOchCpzg0bRW-wzDyftQlRGkbTGwqQ3gL9d3x2njs9kHFbQ1khND2Z0gzpaWCgU2Tb2bj6KnGljFn4RzEQtAKLZdvrehKxCCPjLH62SSM8rqZj7ZmNDxG2yHOl%7EtjmqD5Jlb7Od6ZQJ7z5AKEW6lu-Pj5gRhBUzyetqT3KC6BFFnZbO%7EQpZOUNJKZpe3NdsFQwaQnZTZZPj-FnNGH4L2KfB%7E3z58RwOmfS4Le32qsW599Gl9TLyLWgIA2fSrOGXh5yyyEj5YzCBBl4dE%7EJHER3N-G-HBT6Pd2S8VpKu1iB2QATT5FG7rwZEjJ3K8gq4CVsUnQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM dff24e91a751c36caa1b1d9ca1a15278 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Suzanne Laurelle Interviewers: Sarah Boyer, Lois Johnson, Laura Catanzaro February 10, 2020 �SARAH BOYER: Today is February 10, 2020, and we’re very happy that Suzanne Laurelle is here to be interviewed for the DOB Project. My name is Sarah Boyer and I’m with Lois Johnson and Laura Catanzaro. And thank you so much, Suzanne, for coming. Lois, do you want to start us off? LOIS JOHNSON: Yes, indeed. (moment of static) SB: Don’t touch it. LJ: We are here with Suzanne Laurelle, and we’re very privileged to have her with us. She has a good story to tell us and we, again, give our thanks for what she’s done before in an interview, and she is now going to redo this interview. Today is February 10. [00:01:00] It’s around quarter of two, and we are here at Springhouse in Jamaica Plain, 44 Allandale Street, and I am Lois Johnson. Okay, let us begin. Did I leave anything out? Fine. Suzanne, the way we’d like to start this is for you to tell us a little bit about your early life, about your childhood, your interests, your schools, going on into teenage, and so forth, and so forth. Anything you’d like to tell us about that, your hobbies, your family. SUZANNE LAURELLE: I was born and grew up in Revere, Massachusetts. I had an older brother and a younger brother. [00:02:00] And most of my years I was pretty much a tomboy, so I fit right in with all the boys in the neighborhood. In fact, when I was probably 10 or 11 or 12, we all had go-carts, and I beat all the boys, and they didn’t like that. So I did have a couple girlfriends until about the sixth grade when suddenly one day the one girl I was really friendly with said, “My mother said I can’t play with you anymore.” And that was the end of that. And so, in junior high, I was kind of a lonely child. And I came home a lot, and just ate and watched television and read, or whatever. 1 �But when I got into high school, I did meet a couple of friends. And I played basketball in high school. I always enjoyed sports, and I played softball in the league, Police Athletic League, in the summertime. So I don’t know that I had any real hobbies, other than just enjoying sports and playing sports. We had a fairly typical, I guess, middle class family. [00:03:00] My parents weren’t well off, but we didn’t lack for anything. We had a big family, my mother’s family. Italian family, and we gathered for holidays. And I had an aunt and a couple of cousins that we did a lot of things with in the summertime. Every single Sunday, for a number of years during the summer, we went swimming somewhere. Somewhere in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, whatever. We took off for the day and we went swimming. So we were, like I said, a pretty typical family. By the time I got into high school I was, like I said, I made a couple of friends, but I never really felt I ever quite fit in. The whole idea of being lesbian or gay was just totally foreign to me and pretty much everybody else in that time. This was in the ’50s. It wasn’t out and about like it is today, where people, young kids can see what that lifestyle is and who they are, [00:04:00] and I had no clue. I did have a couple of, kind of, passing incidents with other girls in high school where something didn’t feel quite right. I think they were coming on to me, but I didn’t have any clue what that was all about. So I just kind of brushed it off. And I went on to college at the University of New Hampshire, and I felt disconnected again there. Didn’t really make friends. I felt lonely. My grades failed. I just couldn’t seem to get my act together and feel like I fit in. I had graduated with honors from high school, while I couldn’t seem to manage studying and getting anything done in college. Then there was a girl who lived down the hall, Marylou, and another one Jeanie, who lived across the 2 �hall. [00:05:00] From time to time, there was some whispering about the fact that there [was] one in the other’s room with the door closed. But I didn’t still understand that. Then one day they invited me to go for a ride to the beach at Dover, the seashore. In those days, you could sit three people in the front seat. So, somehow or other I managed to get in the middle seat in the front, one on either side. (laughter) I don’t know, just happened. We got to the beach, and we pulled up at the seashore, and we’re kind of looking out. All of a sudden, there’s a hand on my knee. And I was, “Oh.” And I just didn’t get it. I didn’t know what was going on; I just kind of froze and sat there. So it didn’t really get any further than that because I guess, if I didn’t respond, they said, “Oh well.” I don’t know. Then, after the middle of my sophomore year, my grades were so bad, I dropped out of school. [00:06:00] I just wasn’t happy, and I left school. I didn’t know what I wanted to do then, so I just got a job and went to work. On and off I had some kind of attractions to females, but I didn’t really understand it. I thought I just liked them. I never dated through high school; I didn’t go to the prom. Nobody asked me, and I couldn’t find anyone to take me. I didn’t have any relationships with boys in high school or even in college, in fact. I just had a pretty lonely life. Anyway, eventually I met a friend of a friend, and we started to date, and I married in 1963. Basically I agreed to get married because I figured nobody else would ever have me, and this would be my only opportunity to get married and have kids, and live the life I was supposed to live. [00:07:00] In the ’50s, that was what you did if you were female. You got married, you had kids, and you lived happily ever after. But the happily ever after part didn’t happen. After about 15 years of difficult marriage stuff and counseling that didn’t help, and little kids growing up… At first I thought I could never leave, get 3 �divorced because I couldn’t handle two little kids on my own. But by the time they were in, I think, fifth and sixth grade, I just couldn’t handle it anymore. I did get divorced and embarked on a life of single parenting. I was in college nights again at that time, at Northeastern, going to school. I got involved in a group called The Beginning Experience, which was an organization that offered weekend workshops for people who lost a spouse through death or divorce. [00:08:00] I was involved in that for four or five or six years, I don’t know. So I was able to process the loss of marriage and divorce. Did a lot of good stuff there, and I met a good friend there. It was probably 19 -- early ’80s. I had told her about a trip I made with a friend, and how difficult it had been for me. I felt shunned by her. It was just a torturous weekend. A woman I was obviously in love with but didn’t understand. My friend said to me one day, “Do you think you might be a lesbian?” I went, “Ohhh, wait a minute,” and then things just started to make sense to me. I could see that some of the relationships and feelings I’d had with women - everything started to make sense to me at that point in time. LJ: How old were you at that time? [00:09:00] SL: I was about 45. Then I didn’t quite know what to do. The whole idea of being a lesbian just scared the hell out of me because I didn’t know what it really meant. It felt to me like I was thinking about moving to a foreign land where I didn’t know the language or the customs. This same friend, who was a straight woman, knew a couple [of] lesbians, and she connected me with them, and they told me about DOB. So that’s [the] first dip of my toe into the lesbian world. I tiptoed into a rap meeting one night at the Old Cambridge Baptist Church. Barbara Webber was leading the rap that night, and I was just inside the door, looking around. She spotted me, and she came over and gave me a 4 �great big welcome, a greeting; she realized it was my first time there. She introduced me to a couple people. The meeting was okay. I mostly sat and listened. [00:10:00] At the end, Barbara came over to me, and she said, “I’m glad you came. I hope you come back.” And so I did. I started to come to some of the rap meetings, and got to know a few people. I was working at Bentley College at the time, and I realized there was a woman I knew I had seen at one of the DOB rap meetings, that was leading a group that met at Bentley College. I can’t even describe the group. Her name was Irene Miller, and she was leading a group that was professionally oriented, a professional networking kind of group. I was involved in that. Then I realized I had seen her at a DOB meeting. We were talking on the phone one night, and I timidly asked her if she’d even been to any meetings at Old Cambridge Baptist Church. [00:11:00] And she said, “What? A DOB meeting?” And I said, “Yes.” She said, “Oh, okay.” It was like okay, whew. We got to be friends. So that’s kind of how I made my way into the community. Later on I heard about OLE, Older Lesbian Energy. I started to do some things [with] them [and] got pretty involved with OLE. [I] actually became part of the coordinating committee, and was involved with them for a long, long time. [I] was still an active part of the group when it disbanded in 2009. There were two women who were running it at that point in time. Carol Rizzo and Jane, whose last name I forget, had passed away. So, there was a large meeting of some of the older women who were part of the group. It was decided that no one really was interested in [00:12:00] carrying the group forward, but we didn’t want to disband. So we decided we would have an informal group. We had a Google group list that Sarah de Ris and I still manage to this day. A number of us still gather. Some of us get together to sing, some get together to play poker, and once a year we 5 �have a weekend in Provincetown, where we gather. So I’m still connected to all of those OLE people, many of whom [were] also DOB people. People were part of both groups. So that’s how I managed to make it into the community and find my way. And now it doesn’t feel so strange anymore. LJ: When you just -- going back a little bit -- when you were in high school, had you ever heard of lesbians or gay people, or knew what it meant? SL: No, no. The whole concept was totally foreign to me. [00:13:00] I guess I knew there was something out there that was kind of different. But exactly what that was, what that meant, I didn’t really know. Certainly there was no one openly gay from high school or even in college, for that matter. That wasn’t an era when that was possible. It just never happened for me there. Like I said, until I was like 45 or whatever when my friend asked me, I was pretty clueless. And I was really focused on being a heterosexual mom and wife, and all that stuff. LJ: Doing what was expected. SL: Doing exactly what was expected, yes, yes. I did. LJ: Could you talk a little bit more about your family background? SL: My mom’s family, my mom’s parents came from Italy; [00:14:00] we were Italian and settled in Revere. My mom had three sisters and a brother. They all grew up in Revere. My grandfather owned a little grocery store in Revere. My father’s family is French in origin. Actually my older brother has done ancestry on my father’s side, the Boudette side, back to 1664, [when] the first John Boudette came from France to settle in Canada. He’s got something like 12,000 or 15,000 names in a database that are all descendants. We’re the eleventh generation from the original ancestor, so we’ve got a whole slew of 6 �people on that side. My father’s father, my grandfather, owned a little electronics store that was next to the grocery store that my other grandfather owned. [00:15:00] That’s how my mom and dad met. He would come into the grocery store to get stuff, and they met. They were married in 1929. My older brother John was born in 1937, I was born in ’41, and my younger brother was born in ’43. We had a fairly close family connection on my mom’s side. We always went to her parents, my grandmother’s, for Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, and all those holidays. Family was really important on that side of my family. And like I said, I had an aunt and some cousins who we used to do stuff with in summer. They would come and visit, and we would visit them. Playing cards and doing stuff as a group was always fun and family entertainment. We did that a lot. My grandmother, my mom’s mom, died when I was nine, and her husband, my grandfather, died when I was ten. [00:16:00] So I lost them really early. On my father’s side, I never knew my grandfather. He died before I was born, and my grandmother on my father’s side died when I was two. So I didn’t have any grandparents on the Boudette side. So family centered around the Balboni side of the family. Like I said, it was fairly typical middle class. Television started in the ’50s, and we watched it. We were very sports oriented. [When I was] a teenager, we often went to the Celtics games. We were basketball fans. [We] watched the Red Sox, and all of that. In many respects, it was a fairly typical 1950s, ’40s, ’50s upbringing. Like I said, I had no idea what being gay or lesbian was; there weren’t really any movies that depicted gays or lesbians [00:17:00] There wasn’t a whole lot out there to identify with and wonder about, to know what that all meant. Then I went on to get married, and I had my little kids, and I was doing my thing. 7 �LJ: Did your brothers get married early in life? SL: My older brother got married in 1960, so I guess he was 23. He was out of college. He married a woman that he met in New Jersey where he was working. He had two kids, a girl and a boy, Robin and Neal. My younger brother got married a little later in life. He was married in the ’70s; he was like 32 or 33 when he got married. He married [a woman] he met where he was working up near Clifton Park, New York, and they still live up there. John and his wife are retired and living in Florida, [00:18:00] He’s now living with his third wife. The first two didn’t work out. We continue to gather. Thanksgiving [is] an incredibly important gathering for my mother’s side of the family. You might call it the “Holy Grail”. I have a nephew who’s a writer, and he recently joined a story-telling group where they meet once a month. If you choose, you can tell a five minute story. And he sent me a link to the recording -- the story he told about our family, and how important it is to get to my mom’s house, or to my brother’s house. Now that my mom’s passed away, that’s where we gather (at my brother’s house). He said it was getting all bundled up, five o’clock in the morning, putting the kids in the car and driving from Michigan to New York, and crossing the border, and the whole thing. [00:19:00] You’ve just got to be there. When we get there, all the traditions that we have around Thanksgiving, particularly once we got started doing them after my mom died in 1998… After that, we started going to my brother’s in Clifton Park. It was a whole big family weekend. People arrived Wednesday night, Thursday morning. We had a big Thanksgiving dinner on Thursday. Friday morning everybody went bowling. Friday afternoon we all went skating. Friday night we had a hearts tournament. We had a trophy that somebody won every year, the hearts trophy, yes. That (Thanksgiving) 8 �was the one that we all got together. We didn’t all get together for Christmas or Easter, but we gathered with my mom, [and] even other people for Thanksgiving. This is the one holiday that every member of the family attended. You just had to, you just did. We have a very close-knit kind of unique family when it comes to wanting to be together, honoring traditions, [00:20:00] liking each other, having fun together. Back about 22 years ago, something like that, when my younger brother Neal’s oldest child, Ellen, in Clifton Park, was graduating from high school, he invited people to come to the graduation party celebration. People came from New Jersey, from Massachusetts, from New York, from wherever they were living at the time. We spent a weekend together. We did fun stuff -- we went to the beach, we went hiking, or whatever we did. And we had fun. The following year his other daughter, Linda, graduated, so we all went back again, and we had another fun weekend. The following year there was nobody to graduate. So we said, “Okay, what do we do now? Well, we’ll come anyway.” So we did. (laughter) And every single year, with one or two exceptions since then, which was 23, however many years ago, we’ve gathered somewhere in the summertime, [00:21:00] not always at Neal’s house. We’ve done things like go white water rafting in New York. We’ve gone kayaking and canoeing in Vermont. We took a scenic train ride in the Catskills. We went biking on Block Island. We’ve been up to New Hampshire. We went down to the New Jersey shore. One of our most memorable summers -- there were two that were most memorable -- one was in Clifton Park at my nephew Peter’s house, and we rented a huge water slide for the day. We just loved it. The kids were on it all the time, but so were the grandparents. I was on it, every single person made use of that water slide, let me tell you. Hockey’s always been a big thing in our family, particularly 9 �with the younger generations, everybody plays hockey. So [we] had a great big twohour street hockey game that I played in, everybody played in. It just was a memorable weekend. And then, a couple of years ago when my daughter was turning 50 in the summer, and I was turning 75, we invited the family to come here to Boston, and we had a scavenger hunt in Boston. [00:22:00] We divided up in four different teams, and we ran around Boston looking for things and taking videos, meeting strangers, and doing fun stuff. We got home, and we watched all the videos, and we scored it all. And, of course, there was a prize for the winner. Talk about showing up for each other! My nephew lives in Michigan. He’s a journalist, and he just finished writing a book called The Making of a Miracle. It’s the story of Mike Eruzione, who grew up in Winthrop, Massachusetts, and was the captain and the main goal scorer for the 1980 Olympic hockey team that beat the Russians. My nephew has written a book about Mike and the Olympic team. Last Friday night, at a BU game -- because he’s a BU grad -- there was a book signing. There just was zillions of people there. We had family come from Florida, from New Jersey, [00:23:00] from New York. His daughter came from University of Wisconsin, Madison, for the weekend. So people just come together in my family. They support one another, they’re there for one another. My family are all on Facebook, but I’m not on yet, because I’m not technically savvy enough to do it yet, but I will[do it] one of these days. They’re communicating all the time. The cousins, my two brothers’ kids and my kids, are more like siblings than they are like cousins. They are very, very close. Somebody asked me a week or so ago about what would happen once my generation was gone, [and] I said, “They’ll continue to connect. They will continue to get together, they will stay close.” There’s no doubt in my mind that they just will do 10 �that. Because the cousins’ children called their parents’ cousins aunts and uncles. They’re that kind of close. [00:24:00] So in many ways, I have a very close, unique family. When I first realized I was a lesbian, my kids were both away at college. Diane was at the University of Bridgeport in Connecticut, and Bob was at Providence College, Providence. And I knew they’d be coming home for the summer, and I didn’t want to have to hide from them. I didn’t want to have to hide literature or lie about where I was going and what I was doing. So I decided I needed to come out to them. I did a couple things. I went to a lesbian group that was led by a lesbian therapist about how to come out to family. I spent some time thinking about that -- what I want to say, how do I want to do it. I first came out to a niece and a nephew, a brother and sister, who were older than my kids and close to my kids because I wanted my kids to have someone to talk to if they needed to. I knew these two would be really good people for them to talk to. [00:25:00] So I did that, and they were very supportive. I said, “I’m about to tell Diane and Bob. They may want to talk to you.” They said, “Okay, fine.” So, one weekend in April or May, before they came home for the summer, they were home, and at dinner I came out to them. [There were] two interesting reactions. One of them, my daughter said to me, “I knew you were going to say that.” I said, “How’d you know that? There were no clues. How’d you know that?” She said, “I don’t know. I think I’m psychic.” Whatever. My son [said,] “What’s with you?” It turned out he was worried about his friends. Oh,[I forgot] he was still in high school. He was a senior in high school. He said, “My friends are mostly Catholic. Nobody even has a divorced parent, let alone a lesbian.” He was concerned what it would be [like] if his friends found out. [00:26:00] So we talked about that. I said, “Well they don’t need to know. I’m just a single mom, 11 �and your friends don’t come here very often. Mostly you go to their house. So there’s no reason why they should know.” He was kind of okay with that. I know he did talk to his cousin Neal about it. What Neal said to him is, “Your mom is still the same mom she was before she told you. You love her, she loves you. Nothing will change.” So I kind of live with that. And that was whew, done. So we lived like that for a while, but I wasn’t ready to come out to the rest of my family. It was a number of years before I did that. I never ever came out to my mom. I just didn’t feel like that would work very well. I just didn’t feel like that was going to be okay. LJ: Was she very Catholic? [00:27:00] SL: Yes and no. She was a very judgmental person. She was raised as a Catholic, and she believed pretty much in Catholicism but, ironically, back when she and my father were early on in their marriage, my father’s father passed away, and they were trying to make arrangements for the funeral. The priest that was in the church in Everett where he had lived, wanted to go on a fishing trip, and so they had to reschedule my grandfather’s funeral. My father was so pissed off, he never went back to a Catholic church. He said, “Forget it, I’m done with you.” My mom, for some reason or other, decided she couldn’t go either, so she never went to church. LJ: I see. Was that Everett? SL: A number of years after he passed away, when she had an opportunity, she went to church -- particularly when she was at my younger brother’s house because my younger’s brother’s wife Betsy [00:28:00] had been [a] nun and came out of a convent. She always went to church with them. She had a friend in West Roxbury [and] when she visited her, [she] went. When she had the opportunity, she did go to church. Her funeral 12 �was in a Catholic church. And so I just decided -- she was so judgmental. As a kid I got a lot of, “You should do this, you should do this, you should be this, you shouldn’t be that,” from both of my parents. I never felt like I quite measured up for either one of them. So I didn’t want to give her another thing to not measure up about. So I never told her. Back maybe about 15 years ago I think, we were on a family weekend in the summer in Vermont [at] my niece’s house. In small groupings, I came out to the rest of the family. [00:29:00] Everybody was okay with it except I wasn’t quite sure about my older brother John because he can be a strange guy at times. After I finished saying what I had to say, I said, “If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.” And John said to me, “How did Bob take his father’s death?” He changed the subject so I thought maybe he didn’t feel okay with this. Two years later when we did the film Sappho’s Fire, which is a documentary about older lesbians that I was part of, I was visiting him in Florida, and I brought the film down to show him. We talked about the film afterwards, and I said, “You know when I came out to you, I asked you if you had any questions, and you asked me about Bob.” And I said, “I thought you weren’t okay.” [00:30:00] He said, “No, I’m fine with it.” He said, “I didn’t have any questions. I just moved on.” I said, “Okay.” On the other hand, I haven’t been fully accepted by my younger brother; I think it’s okay with his wife, but my younger brother has some hesitations. What was it, 2010 or so when we did Sappho’s Fire, the lesbian documentary? The woman who did the documentary was looking to do interviews with family members. I first asked my kids, both of whom were not interested in being in a film. One because, again, Bob was not sure who was gonna see the film. The same was true with my daughter, because I wasn’t out to her in-laws, or her daughter, my 13 �granddaughter. Okay, fine. So then I called my younger brother and asked him. [00:31:00] He said, “We don’t believe in the lifestyle, so we’d rather not.” Okay, and I tried to convince him that it wasn’t a lifestyle, it wasn’t my choice, it’s just who I am. But I later found out that his wife Betsy would’ve been fine with it, but he spoke for her and it wasn’t accurate. So finally I called my niece Robin, who lives in New Jersey, and she said, “I’ll be in your video, okay, fine.” So we went down to New Jersey, [and] we did an interview with her, which was really good. She’s in her 50s, she’s married, she had no kids. Her husband’s brother is gay. She’s fine with it. She lived in Berkeley for a long time, so she played field hockey and knew lots of lesbians. The rest of the family, the nieces and nephews, are all okay with it. And so I am who I am. For a while, I had a hard time talking about stuff with Neal, but now I just don’t care. [00:32:00] I just tell him anyway, “Deal with it in whatever way you want.” I’m okay with that. It took a while to be ready to come out to the whole family. One of the things I always said to myself back in the ’90s was, if I get into a serious relationship, I’m going to have to come out. Well, unfortunately, I’ve never had a serious relationship, except one shortterm long-distance relationship in the early ‘90s, and it didn’t last long enough to have to come out for anybody. So that didn’t force me to do it, but I did it when it felt right to do it, and I came out to everybody. LJ: Well that’s wonderful for you to tell us. Could you tell us a little bit about the kind of work that you’ve done in life? SL: Yes, like I said, I dropped out of college in the middle of my sophomore year, because I wasn’t getting along, and my grades were down. [00:33:00] So I went to work for a couple of years as a telephone operator, long-distance telephone operator in Boston. 14 �That was not a career path I was looking forward to, but I had been a local telephone operator for a couple of summers in Revere. So it was easy to just go into Boston and get a job as a telephone operator. I already knew how to do it. And then I took a job with Liberty Mutual. I was an insurance rater, rating workers comp insurance policies. I was there for two or three years. I got married while I was there in 1963. Then I’d been there like three or four years, and the department supervisor left. I had the most seniority, and I knew the most, [but] instead of promoting me to that job -- the father of some little shit over in auto who knew nothing, [00:34:00] who was 18 and clueless, had no idea how to ever do workers comp -- talked to the VIP on the floor, and they promoted her and put her over there. And we certainly clashed. She didn’t know what she was doing, and she kept trying to tell me how to do my work, and she didn’t know. So I just had to leave. I couldn’t stand being there. I got a job at a water meter company in Dedham, in the parts department, putting water meters together, because I needed to do something. I was married at the time, and when my first baby came along, I stopped working, and I stayed home. I did go to work when my kids were like [in] first or second grade, something like that, because we wanted to buy a house. So I worked nights. My husband worked days and I worked nights, in the Rustcraft greeting card factory, filling greeting card orders. That lasted a year and a half maybe. We moved into a house, and I didn’t work. [00:35:00] When I got divorced in 1978, I obviously had to go to work. By this time I was taking classes at Northeastern at nights. I got a job working at the Pillar House Restaurant, which was a fancy restaurant in Needham. I worked there as a bookkeeper because I was taking accounting at Northeastern. In 1980, I got an associate degree in accounting and continued to work at the Pillar House. I decided I didn’t really 15 �want to be an accountant, so I switched my major to human resource management. I continued to work at Pillar House, [00:36:00] and then I worked a series of contract jobs for a while. I graduated from Northeastern in 1982 with a 3.96 average, summa cum laude, third in my class. LJ: Wow, wonderful. Congratulations. SL: Yes, as a single working mom, yes, I did. Then I got a human resource job with a software company out in Framingham. I worked there for a while; the project they were working on got terminated, so I lost that job. Then I kind of moved around. I worked at the Human Resource Department at Bentley College for a while. [I] moved from there to Wellesley Hospital and worked there for a while. Then I got chronic fatigue syndrome. [00:37:00] I was really debilitated physically, and mentally couldn’t cope, [and I] couldn’t manage to work a whole week. I got laid off from that job, and I couldn’t go back to work because of the chronic fatigue. So I started doing contract work; I would work here and there a little bit [for] different companies. Eventually, [I] got a permanent contract job with a company, BeneTemps. I just did employee benefits work on a temporary contract basis until I retired in 2008. So most of my career was human resource management, but I never could work really full-time, so [I] didn’t put together a whole big career. I never gained enough experience to earn a good salary. [00:38:00] I [had] just kind of minimum salaries, so when I retired, I didn’t have a whole lot to fall back on. I have to live minimally. I didn’t have an opportunity to put money away for retirement, and so I do what I can do now. SB: You were very generous with the movie. You were one of the producers, I think. 16 �SL: Yes, I was. Well, that happened by accident. The two women who were doing the movie lived in Providence, [and] they wanted to connect with somebody in the Boston area, because they wanted to interview people in Boston as well as Providence. So they Googled older lesbian, and up came Older Lesbian Energy, which was the Boston area organization. They contacted us and said they were interested in interviewing older lesbians in Boston. I was the one who responded. I said, “Sure, what do you want?” I just started helping them, trying to be helpful. I told them this, and I told them that, and they were doing this, and things started to go on. At one point they said, “You know, you’re really acting as our associate producer. Here’s some business cards.” [00:39:00] “Oh, okay!” I said. From there on, I was just part of the team that developed the film and put out publicity, and got it to places where we could show it, and took it around. So, yes, that was kind of a really fun two, three years, when we did that. SB: And this is the film, Sappho’s Fire. SL: Sappho’s Fire, yes, the documentary by Lexi Kosmider and Debbie Monuteaux. We actually got to take it out to a film festival in Seattle, so I got to travel out to Seattle to do a film festival, and that was a fun trip. LJ: It’s been shown a lot, hasn’t it? SL: It has been shown around the country, yes, it has, a lot. SB: Could you give a short description of the movie? SL: It’s a documentary of interviews with older lesbians. A lot of it has to do with what it’s like to live as an older lesbian at this time, and some background, too. [00:40:00] I kind of tell my story in it. There’s a couple, Janet and Connie, with a number of children between them. I think there’s nine? They talk about how they got together. Janet talks 17 �about how, when she came out as a lesbian, she was married, she was living in New York, and her husband sued her for custody of the kids. At that time, being gay, being a lesbian, was considered a mental illness. So she lost custody of her kids. She connected with the two girls; her son is still somewhat distant to her. There are some other people who talk about different situations. Everybody has a little bit different background about how they came into the community, [and] how they handle it now. So it’s really information. [Women] talk about how difficult it is for some people. [They] talk about trying to find a place, a retirement community, where they [can] feel accepted. [00:41:00] And [can] you afford one? No, [we]can’t afford one because for a variety of reasons many of us were not able to earn enough to make it possible. So it [is] just a compilation of stories of different people. It just says, this is who senior lesbians are today, and this is what they’ve lived with, and this is how they live now. LJ: How did they do the introduction, which I remember as rather unusual? It was one person with what appeared to be wings. SL: Yes, it was like a goddess. The title Sappho’s Fire obviously refers to Sappho, the lesbian on Lesbos. They had this woman with this kind of goddess outfit and crown on, and they were out on the beach with a great big fire, and she was kind of dancing around the fire out by the beach. That was the whole thing of it. SB: It was like a movie logo, basically. SL: Yes, yes, yes, it was. [00:42:00] The logo on the film was the picture of her, but the movie logo was the introduction to it, yes. LJ: Well, you’ve done a lot of things in your life, Suzanne. SL: I have. 18 �LJ: When I first met you, you said that you have a wonderful son, but the relationship with him was different than the relationship with your daughter. SL: Yes. In terms of my coming out and my being a lesbian, he had some issues with it early on. I’m still not exactly sure where he’s at, but he seems to be okay with it now. Diane was okay with it, but she was concerned about her in-laws and Steve’s family’s knowing about it [and] how would that be, because we did Christmas with them. So I agreed to not be out, and to sort of censor what I said around them. [00:43:00] I still am not out to my 15-year-old granddaughter, which bothers me a lot. LJ: You’ve taken her on some trips, haven’t you? SL: When she was younger, for about six or so years, we went numerous places throughout the summer, and we just did fun stuff once or twice a week throughout the summer. I made her photobooks of all the places we went, so she’s got, I think, six books, “My Summer with Grandma”. My relationship with her lately, in the last few years, has been pretty strained. It seems to be a little bit more than just the, duh, teenage years. She doesn’t seem to be excited to see me, doesn’t care. She’s moping around, and she doesn’t want to talk, and ugh. I just haven’t felt comfortable with her. [00:44:00] I haven’t felt really well accepted -- except [this] blew me away. The other night Saturday night, when we were in Boston, and we had taken the train back to Riverside -they were getting in their car, and I was going to get in my car. She had started to [go] towards her car, and I started to hug people to say goodbye. My daughter said, “Lindsey, come say goodbye to your grandma.” She turned and came [back] with a big, big smile [and] gave me a big hug. It’s like, ‘where the hell did that come from?’ So I don’t know. Again, if I were in a relationship, I would definitely be out to her. I’m not. 19 �So I still would like to find a way to better relate to her because I don’t feel like I have a good connected relationship with her right now. I’m not sure I want to say anything with our relationship in that state. So until I either have to, or I feel more comfortable with her, [I’m] not going to say anything to her. [00:45:00] LJ: Do you think there’s any off chance there that this young lady might be trying to pursue things that are confusing her about relationships? SL: No, I don’t think so, no. She’s a pretty typical 15 year- old. She’s interested in boys. She hasn’t really dated yet, but I saw pictures of her a couple of weeks ago, and they had a semiformal dance, and she had five or six friends who came over to her house. They all got dressed at her house to go to the dance. One of the friends is either very butch lesbian or trans. We don’t know yet. I asked Diane, “Is she lesbian or trans?” She said, “I don’t think she knows yet.” This girl was in pants, a vest, a bowtie, and a hat, and she was with all the other girls in dresses. [00:46:00] Hey, how far have we come from when I was in high school? Wow, son of a gun! So, who knows? LJ: Who knows is right. That’s interesting. SB: When you do come out to her, I’m sure you will be seen as very cool. SL: Do you think? SB: Yes. SL: Who knows? I don’t know. LJ: Maybe you will have the same reaction that my nephew and niece had when finally mother and father decided it was time. And they, “Oh, Mother, of course we knew.” (laughter) SL: Isn’t that -- who knows? I don’t know. 20 �LJ: That’s the way that was, thirty, forty years ago. [00:47:00] And did you participate in other activities in DOB? SL: I didn’t really because it was early on in my coming out. I wasn’t ready to go to dances. There might’ve been a party at your house, [but] I just went to the rap groups, because that’s where I was at. I just needed to tiptoe in and talk and tiptoe home. LJ: Did you go to the mother’s group? SL: The mother’s group, no. LJ: Yes, I think there had been [one] at that point. SL: If there was one, I didn’t go, but I don’t remember it, no. LJ: You have told us this before, but because we’re going to be putting this in a book about DOB -- was the experience at DOB -- it sounded as though it was helpful to you. Did it help you to come out? SL: Yeah, it did, yes, because it was a very welcoming place. I might especially say thank you, Barbara Webber, [00:48:00] for making it that welcoming the first time I came. I don’t know if you people will believe it, but basically I’m not a big talker. Mostly I sit and listen, and so I did a lot of that. I did a lot of sitting and listening, and not a whole lot of talking. And I didn’t go every month. I went a little bit sporadically, and then a little bit more and, like I said, I kind of moved over to OLE and didn’t quite finish up with the rest of DOB. I felt connected to a couple people at OLE that I didn’t with anyone yet at DOB. But [DOB] was a place to begin to feel like I was okay in the community, and I was accepted, and nothing negative happened there. Like I said earlier, I realized I recognized the woman [who]had been at one of the DOB meetings that I knew, who was in that professional group. [00:49:00] So I was able to connect up 21 �with her. So that was the friend that I made with DOB. And, again, I was moving pretty slowly. I just wasn’t ready to charge ahead. A lot of it was still foreign to me. But having made that one connection at DOB with her, I had someone to specifically talk to and ask questions of, that I was [more] hesitant to do in the group setting. Yes, it was a blessing. It was the way I made a connection with the community. I’m glad it was there. LJ: Good. What year was that that you first came? SL: I think it was ’86, maybe. ’87, ’88, somewhere in the late ’80s, yes. LJ: Well, good. It’s a wonderful outline of, I mean, filling in of all the information [00:50:00] and the things that you have done in your life, which has been admirable. Would you have anything else that’s in your mind or anything that you’d like to say? SL: Yes, I would like to have included the things that I’ve done. We’ve talked about the movement, but the other thing in the lesbian community that I’m pretty proud of having done is the program that RALLY put on last fall about honoring our founders. I was one of the people who was most instrumental in getting that organized and put on, when we honored the founders of the early and important lesbian groups in the Boston area, starting [with] DOB. That was the groundbreaking organization, and then there was OLE, [00:51:00] and then was Over 4D, and RALLY, and OLOC, and Flashback, Lesbians of Color. I think it was a great event. Everybody was really pleased that so many people came, and so many people learned. Because some people were in one group and didn’t even know the others ever existed. People intermingled and learned about the other groups and talked about other people. We got to know those founders, who were really historic people in many ways, a little bit better. I’m really proud of 22 �having put that program on, mostly with Sue Reamer. The whole RALLY committee put it on. That was really important information that went out to the lesbian community. We made sure it was videotaped and the History Project has the videotape for their archives. ALL: Good. That’s so good. Wonderful. SL: So we preserved that, yes. That was important to do. LJ: Did you, could you tell, us for people who listen to this, what is RALLY? [00:52:00] SL: RALLY is a social group for lesbians 55 and older, that began in 2012. Jan Taylor and Sue Reamer talked one day and Jan said to Sue, “You know, there’s Over 4D, but a lot of those people are in their 40s, and we’re in our 60s and almost 70s. I think it would be nice if we had a group for older lesbians.” So they decided they wanted to start [a group], and they invited 30 women to come together one day. They said [what] they wanted to do, and 10 of us – [I] was one of the originals -- decided we would be willing to form a committee and organize that. By this time, another important thing that happened to help people connect -- it wasn’t around in the past -- was meet-up groups. They’re online, you find one, and you can go to the event. So the information that’s out there now is incredible. So [we] set it up as a meet-up group, and we started signing people up, and doing events. This has grown; it’s almost our eighth year now. [00:53:00] Not during the summer, but during the rest of the year, the second Sunday of each month we have a social program. [We] usually have somebody come in and talk about something, do something, just sing, or some kind of program, a little social, snacks and stuff. In the summertime, after the Pride parade, we gather at [the] Tip Tap Room for a meal. Often in the summertime we have a gathering at Jan Taylor’s house in Lexington, and [we] can go swimming in her [community] pool. Then there’s all the 23 �meet-up events that happen throughout the year, nights and weekends. The name RALLY came from Jan. It was her idea in the beginning. She wanted to call it Retired Active Lesbians Living Young. (laughter) We liked it. That was kind of cool. except we said, “We’ve decided [the minimum age limit will be] 55 plus, [and] not all of them are retired.” [00:54:00] But we loved the idea of the name RALLY. It sounded like a great gathering name. We said, “We’ll just call it RALLY. Forget the acronym.” So RALLY is who we are, and we’ve been going for almost eight years now. We’ve had some changes on the board, and a few of us are still there from the original [committee]. It’s been great for the older lesbian group. Yes, it’s really been positive in a lot of people’s lives. People [were] coming out at older ages. I don’t know that there’s really that many now. I think in the ’70s and ’80s with women’s liberation and some of those other things, women like myself who thought they were heterosexual, said, “Wait a minute, Lesbian? Am I?” It was really important to have a place to connect with, and to start to explore the community, like DOB. I don’t know if that’s that important now. I’m not sure there are that many women coming out at older ages. I think they’re aware of who they are at a younger age. [00:55:00] But it’s still important at some age to connect. There are meet-up groups at all ages, and it’s a lot easier. People don’t have to go to bars to meet people now. A lot of things have gotten better for the gay and lesbian community. LJ: You use the Internet, do you? SL: I do, yes, yes. I’m not a whiz at it, but -- LJ: Well that enables people to go into a meet-up group or whatever, which is very different. 24 �SL: Yes, you connect with a meet-up group. If the meet-up group has an event, they send you an email that says, “We’re going to do this on such and such a date. Would you like to join us, yes or no?” And boom, [it] gives [you] the information. If you’re savvy enough, you just go on and Google lesbian groups, you’ll get the meet-up. It’ll show you where the meet-up groups are, or somebody gives you the name of the group, and you can just check it out that way. You can read what they do if you go on to the program on the site. [00:56:00] “Oh, they do this, they do that. Oh, I like doing those things.” LJ: Wonderful. Well, you’ve given us a wonderful interview. I would like to ask Sarah and Laura, if you have any additional questions to ask. SB: Well, I’m not clear about your younger brother. You still have kind of a -- SL: Well, we don’t talk about it, okay, let’s put it that way. I’m not sure where he’s at now. He probably still has a deep belief that it’s not okay. He was raised Catholic, too. His wife was a nun and she’s okay with it, but he goes to church and all that, so I don’t know. But he loves me. I know that. There’s no doubt about that, and I love him, and we spend time together, and we have fun. I don’t try to hide who I am from him. [00:57:00] And so, that’s where we’re at now. It’s as comfortable as it’s going to be. It’s not uncomfortable, but it’s not like he asks me about anything. He doesn’t. For the most part, most of my family’s fine with it, so that’s good. SB: Yes, I just have to add that it’s wonderful the work that you’ve done in the lesbian and gay community. Thank you very much for all your work. ALL: Yes, thank you. 25 �LJ: I want to say the same. You’ve done so much for people in RALLY particularly, wonderful. Laura? LC: My question opens up a chapter in a sense, here in this discussion. And it has to do with love, it has to do with intimacy, and it has to do with tribe. Just like an Italian family is like your tribe. [00:58:00] Thanksgiving, you go there for that ritual. SL: Yes, every year. LC: The family -- and you have to think, “Well, if I tell this one, what about that one?” and da, da, da. The ties that bind, that are, could be religious, i.e. tying you back to some creed, let’s say in religion. Or are really about covenant, about being brought together by a tacit kind of agreement. So there’s that, let’s call it tribal love. There’s something in lesbianism called tribadism, but that’s not what I’m talking about. LJ: No, I hope not. LC: But what I do want to ask you about is really intimacy and sex, plain and simple. You married a man, you had two children. They had to come around somehow. And what was your inner narrative? [00:59:00] It was like, “Oh, I’m learning to be heterosexual now,” or something. When you were drawn to women, did you have fantasies at all? What was that intimate inner life like around the physical connection? That could be considered naughty, but not. It could be considered divine. SL: I think my relationship with my husband -- a physical relationship -- was he wanted a whole lot more sex than I wanted for sure. LC: But you did your duty. SL: I did my duty. And occasionally it was pleasurable for me, and sometimes it was not. But I wasn’t questioning at all, during the marriage, what that was all about. I think there 26 �were a couple of instances after I was divorced where I felt attracted to women. One in specific, I really felt [01:00:00] sexual feelings about. And I, at the time, wasn’t out. This was before I came out, before I even understood where I was at. It was like I didn’t quite know what to do with it. Fortunately she moved away, so I didn’t have, I didn’t have to figure it all out. (laughter) LC: Unfortunately. SL: Unfortunately. But this is my friend who lives in the Midwest now. And I’m not going to name her, but we met for a weekend in Nashville. Up to this time, we had been physically affectionate. We would hold hands and we would hug. Actually, when we met, we would sleep in the same bed. It was like, “Okay, friends.” But this particular weekend she wanted a separate bed, so we were in separate beds, and I went, ‘huh?’ I remember I felt really [01:01:00] abandoned by her, I guess. I remember being in the airport. Her flight left before mine. It’s a small airport, so I stood at the window and I could see her plane going down the runway, and I just started sobbing. It was like, ‘ugh.’ I just missed her so. It hadn’t been what I had expected. It wasn’t warm and affectionate. It was like, ‘Whoa, what the hell happened?’ LC: Was this recent, or was this -- SL: No, this was a number of years ago. This was maybe 20 years ago, maybe 30. LC: You’re still meeting her every year, aren’t you? SL: She is still my best friend, yes, she is. I came out to her a number of years later. We were on a trip to Cincinnati, and I was really nervous, but I did come out to her. And we were in a bed and breakfast. Earlier in the day we had some champagne, and I came out to her [01:02:00], and she said, “I’m going to go get the bottle of champagne, and we’ll 27 �celebrate.” So I go, “Okay.” So yes, we’re still best friends, and meet every few years. We pick a city, we go spend a weekend or a few days together -- now during the week because we’re retired. She’s a great friend. She was okay with that, she got it, and we’re still good friends. She actually has a couple of other lesbian friends that she sees from time to time, and does good stuff with. LC: Are you sure she’s straight? LJ: Is she sure she’s straight? SL: No, I don’t know. She’s been married, too. She’s been married to her husband for 35 years now. I think she is. I think she’s just open to everybody. She’s got a lot of straight friends as well, but she has a lot of other lesbian friends. They’re just women she likes, and people she connects with on whatever level. Yes, I’m sure she’s straight, yes. [01:13:00] So like I said, I had one short term long-distance relationship with a woman who was living in Ohio. I met her when she was here visiting. Then we had phone calls and letters for a while. I went out to spend some time with her. While I was there, she ended our relationship, saying “she loved me, but was not in love with me”. She was going to come back and live here with a friend she knew on the North Shore. So we drove back together. It didn’t work out that she could live with the friend on the North Shore, so she asked if she could move in with me. Okay, fine. But it just didn’t work out. She met another woman and wound up dating this woman, and seeing her in my house for a while, until I said, “Get the hell out.” And she did, she moved out. [01:04:00] It was just an odd experience. I’ve thought about dating people, and I’ve had some initial contact with people, [an] initial date, but nothing has ever worked out. There are times when I think, ‘are you just too fussy?’ I don’t know. I’ve met a couple 28 �of friends that I’ve connected to instantly but on a friendship level. But I’ve never met a woman that I connected on that level and an intimate level at the same time. It’s important that I connect on a really intimate level, on a level that feels comfortable and acceptable. [01:05:00] In many ways I’m a very deep person; I’m not superficial at all. I think sometimes it’s hard maybe to meet someone that can connect with where I’m at. I’ve struggled in my life with a lot of stuff. I’ve got a lot of baggage that I’ve been unloading in therapy for the last few years. I’m in a much better place now. For the longest time, I didn’t know that I could actually connect with anybody because, well, quite frankly, I was sexually abused by my father when I was a kid, for about eight years. That’s impacted my whole damn life, and it’s affected my ability to be intimate with anyone anyway. So who knows? I’m in a much better place with that now, [so] then maybe there’s somebody in the future. I don’t know. LC: Well, you certainly express your love in many other ways. [01:06:00] SB: I just thank you for being so honest. And thanks, Laura, for bringing it up. LJ: It’s difficult at best. SL: Yes, I had to come out to my family with that information, too. I was not willing to live with that struggle and not have my family know what happened, not knowing what happened to me as a child. LJ: So you did tell them? SL: Yes. Everyone in my family knows that I was abused as a child. Yes, they all do. LC: Your mother didn’t, chose to look the other way for eight years? 29 �SL: For the longest time, I wasn’t sure. But then I got to a point where I realized she knew. She didn’t do anything, for whatever reason, I don’t know. [01:07:00] I don’t know, but she didn’t do anything. So, my early childhood was -- LJ: Traumatized. SL: Pretty traumatic, yes, it was, yes. And I was a lonely kid after that, and [that was] why it was hard for me to make friends. I had this barricade around me. LJ: Thank you so much for your honesty. LC: You are a strong woman. LJ: You are strong. You’ve done so much with your life, regardless of that terrible abuse. SL: I don’t know how many times I say, “Shit. I would rather be a loved woman and a loving woman than a strong woman. I don’t want to be strong! I don’t want to have to be strong!” LC: Well, you know the other side of Italian Catholicism quite frankly is paganism. So, in the next lifetime. (laughter) SL: Oh good, finally. LJ: Well, we go out with when God was a woman. [01:08:00] And that’s the name of a book. I’ll get it for you. ALL: Okay, yes. LJ: Well, thank you so much, Suzanne. SB: Thank you, Suzanne. SL: You’re welcome. LJ: You’re a remarkable woman. SL: Thank you. 30 �LJ: And we look forward to many more years of having you here. LC: We do! LJ: And me and everybody else being able to enjoy being with you. Thank you so much. END OF SUZANNE LAURELLE FILE 31 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Laurelle, Suzanne Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Suzanne Laurelle, 2020 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-02-10 Description An account of the resource Interview with Suzanne Laurelle for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Laurelle, Suzanne; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/9a214ee0532b754caaefadf712419b13.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ebhpVTIYUA8imZBDD0jNBgrW6n97ywo6Ny8jU2VJJi32uBfoKwdZ0BleFjAhAZmWat2Rst2fc9mMWpfsJCdK7rNGANcg8PI2LqSY1gkMCfMSTrSPxKHrEvr55-qgzSs5Vx-6nPKj6DTT-kijToj1xH-PK6VmuctV6MvSLXTh4Ak4Kvo6cgrUln4BFfP%7Ep77dW-mZf4Miwyr33xHqnZMnIWdAljemn2lPRe-JGo9TiGkH3BLrXUxM-i7AlvHrblhw09bscjHKd1ADN5qiHPYb%7EHXjUjoiQdRepcLHkKFMV4QJFiY8HWzCcJT%7EZJwuLyNDWPak-DaAtTvMssqblyMpCA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ba5df0157b56f87ade7287e298938c90 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/b9dd6b80c16658fdfa7715a5e2ff6aa6.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=OTe8SL4kshm2qu4dKfF-Jhy13CiBRBCrmyINIcpu5gxcHsTiby1ACk5VVUMchXjl1gQ%7EZMAChkcUfPkF9bFi-pqC7icmjpagBzb1ZabAdy5wvI5em-2zEMzG2Aye7HyokLh508yG8Whl-GP-v-vaNs2pNAOcRQdiZS%7EwIJk5o-5AbFxsJq1NwqRevZ8Ddk-o9uBnNjLGeb4ofjG3YOn7LrPtHB0MXIriVKGN3hOfN8el%7EeIxa5hBKYRVU4x1cnCn06729fYpCZBGA8o-NhX2ALQP8A2aoeTjzYh7t1bNNCoVgP1G6IyzY4%7ET9lUYvZ6ZnY%7E6-xDLKOQKjk%7EbOPk1IQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 49927a2f91d19634978ef072de8add4c PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Loraine Sumner Interviewers: Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer February 22, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: Today is February 22, 2019, and this is Sarah Boyer. And I’m with Lois Johnson and Loraine Sumner. And Loraine is going to tell us a little bit about her life and her experiences in DOB. So take it away, Lois. LOIS JOHNSON: All righty. First, would you please give me some idea of where you’re living and your age and what your early life was like? LORAINE SUMNER: What my early life was like? LJ: Yeah. LS: Okay, my name is Loraine Sumner. I’m [00:01:00] 82 years old -- young, I should say, not old -- and I grew up in Milton. You know, very different than everybody else, okay, with a very strict mother and a father that let me do anything. Spent most of my time playing with the boys, over at the town field. Sports, okay, that was my whole life. And had my eyes on the women -- the girls, I should say, back then. And in a structured -- a little different environment than it is now. We had one gym teacher for seven -- for six, grades, okay, from 7 to 12. So lots of times in my senior year, I was called on with my lovely gym teacher, you know, which we all love, and would help out with the gym classes. Would get me out of the school, you know, out of my classes, so... And then I ended up going into Boston lots of times and volunteering in some of these little, like the little settlement houses [00:02:00] and so forth, teaching kids sports. But it was my whole life. I mean, I just ate, lived, and slept, thinking there was nothing else, until I came out to DOB and found out there were other things that were important, okay. But yeah, sort of the background. But that was it. I just, you know, lived sports. And then, of course, back then, my gym teacher tryin’ to get me to go to college. My family, of course, girls don’t go to college, you know. You know, girls have to be married. Girls 1 �have to do this. And, of course, everything girls had to do was what I did not want to do. (laughter) You know? But that’s... And I’m back living in the family home again, which I didn’t want to do but my mother had Alzheimer’s, and I had to go back and take care of her. So now I’ve got this -- that’s where I’m living, back where I grew up. LJ: Yeah. LS: Yeah, so... But I’m not in sports anymore. (laughs) LJ: Tell us what type of sports, and did you play sports, or...? LS: Yes, I did. I played. I played, I coached, I taught, and I officiated. I officiated [00:03:00] 33 years. I taught physical education for 17 years, with no college degree, okay. I had my rating at basketball when I was in high school, at Milton High School. I played for the Boston Field Hockey Association, Vermont Field Hockey Association, Rhode Island Field Hockey Association. I played for Boston Women’s Lacrosse Association. And I was involved in all that movement of the girls’ and women’s sports, back in the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, when we fought for equal pay, fought for Title IX, marched in DC-- with MIT and Harvard and Northeastern and some of the colleges in Washington, DC for Title IX, in my lacrosse tunic and my lacrosse stick, (laughter) yeah. And applied for the job at the Mass. Principals Association, and got in there, and then got... That’s where I went for 622, the same as Title IX. So I was -- [00:04:00] even though I always said I wasn’t political, but people laugh at me because here was some political moves that I was involved in. And then I also had a class action suit against the Principals Association for the equal pay of women officials, you know. And I was an honorary life member of the Boston Women Officials. And I was an official for the Boston Field Hockey and Boston Lacrosse, and also played AAU basketball, played ASA softball, traveled around. The 2 �last time I coached softball in ASA was 1976, got the team to Salt Lake City, to the national tournament. LJ: Wow. LS: Yeah. So I was, you know... But then I -- then I lost my father in ’82, and that’s when I had a big change in my life. I kind of got involved with DOB and found out there’s other things in life. Went to Cambridge College and got in there, which is interesting, because I got in and got my master’s degree without having a college degree. LJ: Really? LS: I had to -- I had to write and [00:05:00] re-write, and I had to pay for pre-master’s courses and everything. But it was a good experience for me. It was wonderful, because I was -you know, I love a challenge. And it was a good transition for me, too, you know? LJ: So [there] -LS: And I got my master’s degree without a college education, but I got it -- I got it in education but didn’t teach after that, okay. (laughter) LJ: But that was very unusual. LS: Right, yes. LJ: Yeah. LS: Yeah, so... So getting back to [some] -- you know, back in my day, I don’t think we could put a name to what we were involved with. I think things just sort of happened at the time of the moment, you know. So I was never in really any long-term relationships, but I think, you know, looking back at it now, I don’t think anybody could have tied me down. I’m too much of a -- I like to be on the go. I don’t think I’d like anybody saying to me, “No, you can’t go.” If somebody invited me to a social thing, like... You -- I -- 3 �the answer’s [00:06:00] yes, okay? And that’s me. And -- but I think -- you know, people -- I’ll go on and on, you know? But people -- I think people have to be their own self, you know? I know some -- back in -- sometimes, when we do things that people don’t like, they may not like it at the moment, but in the long term, if you stick to your guns, and they see that you’re able to survive -- and I’ve been a very depend-independent and a survivor –- they, in the long term, do respect you, you know? So, I mean, I was a lesbian. I had a daughter out of wedlock. I never sent -- I never had a resume. I never looked for a job. The jobs came after me. My students used to say to me, “Ms. Sumner, how can you take jobs a year in advance?” Like MIT, Northeastern, these people used to hire me a year in advance to officiate their games. LJ: Wow. LS: You know, that stuff made me very proud, you know, and so forth, okay. And, you know, I have a lot of things that I [00:07:00] think -- and you have to do it for yourself. Nobody comes along and does it for you. You know, when the kids used to come to me and I -and would tell me this thing and that, I said, “Listen, you’ve got to get knocked down so you know how to get up. And if you think that things are tough now, you’ve got to learn to get through it because they get worse later on, and you’re the only one that can pull yourself through these things,” you know? SB: That’s right. LS: And that’s when -SB: That’s right. LS: -- I came out to DOB, and -- in the eight-- would be the ’80s. I lost my father in ’82. LJ: Could I stop you -- 4 �LS: Sure. LJ -- for a second? Did you have feelings in your teen years about women? LS: Oh, yeah. LJ: And could you identify them? LS: Well, we didn’t know -- I don’t think we really knew how to classify anything back then. I think of all the terminology. We didn’t know what we know now. I just -SB: When was the first time that you -LS: Got involved with somebody? SB: -- realized...? LS: Really? SB: Well, no, just realized that you were not a straight person, that you, you know -- that you had [00:08:00] feelings for women, or girls. LS: I think I always knew it. In -SB: You always knew it. LS: In fact, I remember -- I can remember this family taking me to their cottage up in Billerica and so forth, and I can remember touching, you know. And I remember the girl going and telling her mother, (laughs) you know, and her mother coming after me, telling me this was a no-no. And I kept thinking... And I was so young then. I didn’t have a clue, you know. And I kept thinking, well, how can something that feels so right be so wrong, you know? LJ: I know. LS: And I think that got me my curiosity. But as I say, I was so wrapped up in sports, I didn’t think anything of any of this stuff. You know, I think later on, things just happened in 5 �the heat of the moment or whatever, you know. Because I think back, and I just knew all my life I was different. And I -- my family always treated me like I was different. You know, I had to make decisions for my family, too, you know? SB: Could you -LJ: Did you have brothers and sisters? LS: I have one. I had one sister, but she was just the opposite from me. She had a chip on her shoulder, and I was outgoing. I thought everything was fine, as far as I was concerned. [00:09:00] And she was -- she had a hard -- she had a hard track to follow. And she quit school, and she smoked, and she chased boys. And, see, I was just the opposite, for me. We were two completely opposites, yeah. And... But I had relatives that took me under their wing. I had friends that took me under their wing, you know. And I -- so I had lots of opportunity. SB: Did -- now, you just mentioned, though, that your family treated you differently. Can you say anything more about that? LS: Yeah. My father would have me doing the roof with him, fixing cars. (laughs) I did a lot of that stuff. My -- every time my aunts or relatives would go someplace, they’d take me. It was almost like they were taking me -- I don’t want to say away from my mother, but it was almost like I wondered whether my mother was one that wanted to have children. But again, a lot of people grew up that way, too, you know, because the woman wanted you out of the house. Go out and play. Those were the [00:10:00] days they were home, and this is their -- and they just wanted you out. You just come home eight o’clock, twelve o’clock, and five o’clock for your meals, and you be in by the time it gets dark. Other than that, you were free. (laughter) But, yeah, so I only had the one sister, very 6 �different, completely. Personality, everything about her was different than me. Yeah. And I had -- I had lots of mentors, with gym teachers. Milton Academy, two gym teachers over there. Dolly Sullivan was the one that got me into field hockey, you know. And there were different ones down at Bridgewater State College is where I went when I was in high school and got my basketball rating. So I had people underneath, you know, that kind of... And that helps, you know. I mean, kids do need direction -LJ: You did have some mentors. LS: -- whether you think so or not. I had mentors, yes. And one of my mentors just -- that got me involved in softball, and also one night in Hyde Park came up to me and said to me, “It’s about time you [00:11:00] took sports serious,” and went out and got me a teaching job in phys. ed. at St. Pat’s of -- in Brockton, okay. I, you know, I didn’t have any degree, but I took it. And I taught boys from the first to the eighth grade, and girls to the twelfth grade. It was Mary Pratt. I don’t know whether you’ve heard the name. She would prefer -- she used to participate in the World War II women’s baseball, when the men went away to war. She was on the Peaches, if you’ve heard that, with A League of Their Own? LJ: I’ve heard that. SB: Yeah. LJ: Yes. LS: Well, Madonna played Mary in A League of Their Own. Mary just turned a hundred years old. So she was one -- she’s from Quincy. She’s one of my mentors, okay, and I played ASA basketball -- I mean softball for her. Yeah, she just turned a hundred. I was at her birthday party in December. 7 �SB: Oh, wow. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Wow. LS: Yeah, so... LJ: That’s great. LS: Yeah, so... And then I think the different relationships in and out of were... I don’t think we knew how to classify it. I don’t think we knew what to do with it, you know? [00:12:00] I -- you know, now, I think this -- you know, I think some, even then, just said, “Well, I don’t like the lifestyle. I’d rather be married.” And some people thought it was a disease. (laughter) You know? So I don’t think, really, in my mind... And that’s why DOB was wonderful, because now I saw where I really belonged type thing. You -- I could go and talk about how I felt. And I liked the concept with Lois, because everybody was welcome. It treated -- everybody was treated the same. And we had a comfortable environment where we could go and talk. I don’t want to say we were political then, but we did go out afterwards, social. But we would all kind of talk about how we were feeling, talk about coming out, talking about different -- in the lesbian and -- world and so forth. So it was a wonderful experience and a wonderful time for me. And when -- and, of course, when Lois got out of it, I got out of it [00:13:00] because my friend was gone. (laughter) But I like that. See, to me, I think everybody should be treated the same. I think everybody should be... And that was one -- that was the other thing I liked about you, Lois, and going to DOB. I mean, other groups we know out there, but, you know -and some of them back then wasn’t because they were trying to discriminate. A lot of them were afraid of losing jobs. They were in job situations, and they came out into the 8 �women’s groups. Like, I knew them from colleges, and I was officiating their games, and I’d see them out with GPW or someplace else, you know. They really didn’t want to admit it. LJ: Oh, no. LS: But it was because of their job situation. So it was a tough time, I mean, back then, because you couldn’t. See, now, I don’t think it would matter in a lot of places, although we are still discriminated -- I mean, there’s still discrimination out there, whether it’s directed at us or the blacks or whatever. But I think we’re more -- things are more accepted now and more open than they were back then, you know? LJ: [00:14:00] How did you find out about DOB? LS: That’s what I was trying to think of. I probably read something someplace. I’m trying to think of who it was or who I was connected with that may have gone out there at the time. But don’t forget, I was at Cambridge College. I was having a tough time. I would leave early in the day and roam around Harvard Square. I probably read something and ended up at the church. LJ: Probably, yeah. LS: -- and ended up at the church room there sometime, because I can’t remember anybody that made the connection for me. But yeah, it was probably at Cambridge Coll-- when I was at Cambridge College, yeah. LJ: I know that you were present at a lot of the raps. Did you get into other activities at DOB? LS: Well, we did a lot of social stuff. We went out to a lot of dances, and we did go... And a lot of -- after our rap meetings and what have you, we used to go out to pizza, or out to eat, 9 �so there was a lot of, you know... And I did go [00:15:00] out to the bisexual meeting with Robin. I kept thinking -- do you remember my friend, Naomi Kabakow? LJ: I think so -LS: She -- well anyway, yeah, I dragged her to... Robin Oaks was going to come over. Remember, I did the first Tuesday rap leader for you? LJ: Yes, I remember that. LS: And I used to get speakers to come in for nothing to speak to us. So I had Robin Oaks coming in. I said, ‘Well, I better get out there and see what this is all about and meet her’ (laughter) because I didn’t know who she was. But she was a lovely, lovely lady. But it was so funny. And we get there, and they asked Naomi, “What is she doing here?” She - “I don’t know, she dragged me,” (laughter) she says. And so anyway, she came. But it was so funny. She did come, and she was a nice lady, and a lot of people did relate to her, you know. But -SB: Who was she? LS: She was in the bi-- she was the head of the bisexual group at the time. I don’t know where she is, but she was a lovely lady. But it was so funny, because I think now I’m walking into another world, (laughter) you know. And I brought Naomi with me, yeah. Yeah, so... Yeah, so I did the first Tuesday. And then we had a mothers group for a while. [00:16:00] Remember Barbara Smith? LJ: We had a mothers group. LS: Barbara Smith was the one I got from Braintree to do that. LJ: Yes, she was the -LS: She was a teacher at Braintree High School. 10 �LJ: Mm-LS: And she came and did the mother’s group. LJ: Yeah. LS: Yeah, because -LJ: Yes, we had at least 10 or 12 from -LS: Right. LJ: -- of varying things -LS: Right. LJ: -- which people participated in. Some slided from -- slid from one group to the other. LS: To another, right. But we -- back then I had -- I belonged to -- I remember when I belonged to seven women’s groups. I had a group on the South Shore called SELF, Southeastern Lesbian Friends. And then there was GPW, remember? And then it was OLE, Broad Horizons. But there -- I remember one time counting -- somebody speaking to me, and I remember counting seven women’s groups I belonged to. And then they all disbanded. (laughter) LJ: I know. LS: But some of them went into relationships, and when they go into relationship, not that you lose contact but you lose the social aspect of being with them, you know, [00:17:00] because now they’re in a different place, spot, you know. But every once in a while we run into people, you know, and sometimes I try to look up people on Facebook, just like Jenny looked me up. She found -- she saw my picture on Facebook. LJ: Jenny? LS: Jenny Sullivan. That I -- 11 �LJ: That’s right. LS: She -- you connected with her. LJ: I need to get her information. LS: Did -- well, I gave her your information, and I gave you her information. LJ: I know you did. I’ll have to have it repeated. (laughs) LS: And she... She changed. She changed now. You saw what her name is, Jzach something, yeah. But she has lots of DOB pictures for you. And she went on to have children, too. And she’s in a relationship. And she still does photography from out of Manhattan. Lives in Long Island and also has a place, or stays in Florida. But she’s on email and Facebook. LJ: Good. LS: And she’s got lots of pictures for you, she said. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Wonderful. LS: Okay? SB: Wonderful. LS: And she just happened to find me on Facebook. LJ: That would be great. LS: Yeah, she said, [00:18:00] “Do you remember me?” And I said -SB: That’s great. LS: -- “Oh, yeah. I remember you.” Yeah. SB: That’s great. LJ: That’s wonderful. 12 �LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LJ: So did you meet anyone at DOB as a special person? LS: (pause) No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I don’t -LJ: Okay. LS: Not -- nobody that I was involved with, I don’t think, no. LJ: No, (inaudible), yeah. LS: No, I don’t -- no, I don’t think so. Most of the people I was involved with were involved with the sports, how things happened. No, I don’t think any of them -- we were -- some were friends. We had a good time -- we had good times. Some of it -- there was a couple of them who had been married three times, and I said, why would anybody get married once, let alone three times? (laughter) Do you remember? Do you remember? There were a couple -LJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LS: There were a few of them. LJ: I remember that. LS: One, I used to drive in all the time. But I used to say, and I can’t believe anybody would get married once. I said, I refuse to do it. (laughter) I said, I c-LJ: I just refuse. LS: Yeah, I just refuse, yeah. (laughter) And there were -- there were a couple of them. And I kept saying, why the hell would anybody do that? [00:19:00] But anyway, yeah. LJ: So that was, I guess... I’m trying to remember when we disbanded. I think it was the early ’90s. LS: Early -- I was going to say, early ’90s, I think it was. 13 �LJ: Yeah, yeah. LS: Right, it was when you dropped out. And then it became political or something, or... And we weren’t a political group. We were a very compassionate social group, a supportive group back then. But we weren’t radically out there. The only thing I think we did was Pride. That was about it. LJ: Yeah. LS: I don’t think we got involved in much else at the time. We were more a supportive group when we were there, and a social group when we all went out afterwards. That’s basically it, yeah. Yeah. LJ: Right. There was something else I wanted to ask you here. Could you tell us just a little bit more about your background and your [00:20:00] mother and father? What kind of work did your father do? And you always lived in Milton? LS: Yes, mm-hmm. LJ: Yeah, mm-hmm. LS: I -- yes, I always lived in Milton. My father was a hard-working laborer that had to quit school at the eighth grade and went out and worked for the -- worked -- and then worked for the Town of Milton, on the Water Department, as it was back then. His father and his grandfather worked for the Highway Department. So we were real townies. My mother came from a large family, who originated from Nova Scotia. Father came down to find jobs for the railroad. And they had 13 in their family, so... And kind of a tough breed. But anyway, I think that’s another burden I had when my father took ill, was now I had my mother to contend with. And then I had her sister that never married, and sort of had the responsibility of them, you know? So... [00:21:00] But my father was a wonderful 14 �person but not very intelligent, you know, I mean... But -- not book sense, but could fix and do anything, you know. And in ’93, I had to go back and take care of my mother with Alzheimer’s. She had severe Alzheimer’s. Didn’t even know who I was. And I had to go back and take care of her. I had one daughter I brought up alone. So I was a workaholic. I worked -- you know, officiated. I taught at -- I’d take -- bus drivers, drive ice cream trucks, or anything. I worked all the time. I loved working. And I even remember babysitting for 10 cents an hour when I was 10 years old. I worked from -since I was 10 and babysat. I just loved working. So I -- and I am sort of that way still. I have -- I have a calendar, and I keep myself very busy. I do not do well with idle time, although when I finished, after I left -- after DOB and a lot of that, the change in my life when I bought the travel agent -- it took me [00:22:00] seven years to learn to sit still. I’m doing great now. (laughter) Seven years of -- I had therapy and everything. I had acupuncture. I had stretching my neck muscles out because I had such headaches. But it was my body going so fast, my head trying to tell me to slow down. Yeah, so, yeah, that’s sort of some of my background. But I was -- I mean, as I say, with my father, we’d be fixing cars. We’d be doing the roof. We’d be... (laughter) Not that my mother liked it, but -- she probably would rather have me in the house, but that was not my thing. I’d rather be out, yeah, so... But anyway, but my mother came from a large family, and my father came from a large family, too. But they had nothing. They had nothing. We were... I mean, we -- well, you did, too. You grew up during the Depression. LJ: Yeah. SB: Right. LS: You were lucky to have what you had, and you were thankful for it. 15 �LJ: Yeah, that’s right. SB: Right. LJ: Yeah. LS: I mean, nowadays we hear so many people complaining -SB: I know. LS: -- and you wonder what the hell they’re -- what they’re complaining about. (laughter) SB: Right. LS: You know, I mean, [00:23:00] I grew up in -- I mean, two -- saw two families that had nothing. Well, I was happy, (laughs) you know? LJ: Which is a good commentary on your life. LS: Right, yeah, yeah. SB: Really is. LS: And I’m very conservative. If anything breaks down, I go to the attic or the cellar and look and see if I have another one, because I don’t throw anything away. (laughter) But everything’s out of the way. You wouldn’t even know it. But anyway, yeah, here... But, you know, those are the things that we grow, and some of -- I think back then, we were lucky. We really were. We were lucky, you know. LJ: Well, we went a different way -LS: We went -LJ: -- than today’s children. LS: Right. There’s too much negative. You listen to the t-- it’s negative, everywhere. And... Yeah, right, yeah. So, yeah, so that’s about -- well, I bought a -- and then I brought my daughter up alone, okay, so that was another thing. I left the house, and I bought a 16 �mobile home down in Hingham for a while. And then I was in Abington when I used to go to DOB. I bought a house in Abington. Right after that, I bought a cottage down in [00:24:00] Lakeville. And GPW used to have their cookouts there in the summertime. LJ: Really? LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SB: Was GPW Gay...? LS: Gay Professional Women. SB: Professional Women, okay. LS: Right. LJ: Yeah. LS: And what happened to that group, too -- I was there the day that it disbanded. We were at the UU church in Braintree, and they were announcing nobody would step forward to do any work. And the same people, they get worn out. You can’t go on forever. Everybody has to have a change in their life. They’ve got to go on to, you know, other things, and so forth. And everybody, blasé. Back then, (laughs) people were just quiet. They just laid back, let everybody do the work. And nobody would step forward, okay? Now, they’re very critical. But anyway, GPW fell apart. I was right there that night, yeah. And that’s what happened to a lot of them. What happened to my SELF group was they wanted me to throw certain people out of the group. I said, “No, if I can’t run anything that’s open to everybody, I’m not running it at all.” And I dropped it, right like that. So it was the times -SB: Wow. LS: -- you know. I -- 17 �LJ: [00:25:00] Which group was that? LS: That was the SELF group, Southeastern Lesbian Friends, that I ran. I had a huge group down there. I even had a couples group. I had a mothers group. I had a card group. I had all kinds. But they wanted me to throw certain people out. SB: Who’s they? LS: The people in my group. SB: They wanted you to throw -LS: Right, certain other members, because they didn’t like them. One lady had -- and I -- you know, one lady had a tough time, mental issues, okay. But again, you don’t throw people out of groups. LJ: No, you don’t. SB: Right. LS: That’s what your groups are for. SB: Right. LS: They’re, they’re -LJ: Yeah. LS: And you treat -- that’s what I liked about Lois. And I said I’d stay as long as Lois stayed, okay, because you treat everybody the same, and everybody was welcome. And that’s the way these groups should be. They shouldn’t be cliquey, okay? And I think that’s what happened. Some groups got negative. Some groups couldn’t find people to run it. Some people got -- some of them got political. And they kind of disbanded, you know? SB: Yeah, yeah. LS: You know, even OLE. Look at how they struggled. 18 �LJ: Oh, I know. LS: They struggled, too, and -LJ: For a long time. LS: -- Poor [00:26:00] Carol Rizzo tried to keep it going for the longest time, and she -LJ: Right. LS: Yeah, she -LJ: You can’t do it forever. LS: You can’t do it forever. And then she ended up with cancer and passed away. You know, God love her, you know, but again... Yeah, so it’s kind of a shame. LJ: So when I met you -LS: Yeah. LJ: -- you were doing travel work. Would you please talk about that? LS: Sure. When I... (laughs) When I came out of Cambridge College and graduated, I -- they had me totally looking at things from a different perspective, okay? They wanted me to think of what I was going to do to help me out, instead of continuing my life to think I can help everybody else. I thought I could save the world when my father died. So I kind of laid back and didn’t take any leadership roles back then at Cambridge College, okay. And [one professor] gave me an A-, and I went up to him and I told him, “I’ve been a leader all my life. What’s this?” And he said to me, “You see, you didn’t raise your hand. When I was asking for volunteers, you wouldn’t raise [00:27:00] your hand.” He says, “Now, did you see that?” So he said, “Now, what are you going to do in your life?” And he says, “What do you want to do?”, you know, he said to me. And I’m thinking -- I think, well, I’m going to travel. So what did I do? I saw this ad for a travel 19 �agency, for $45,000, called Friends in Travel. (laughter) Had no idea of the travel business. Had none whatsoever. So I came out with my college degree, with a master’s in education. SB: Amazing. LS: Had taught physical education for 17 years. Administration drove me out, not the kids. I loved the kids. It was the administration that drove me out. So anyway, I saw this ad and got an attorney down in Brockton. He had some debt from being embezzled by another manager. She cut, so I had no responsibility on that, okay. And I bought one that... He was from -- Lebanese, okay, from Lebanon. And I bought the agency from him in the Dedham/West Roxbury line, [00:28:00] called Friends in Travel. And I ran that for almost 20 years. And that’s where I learned to sit still, after I wasn’t... But sometimes, running part-time jobs, or doing officiating. But I had some people in the office that were there, that I kept the same staff till they disappeared, okay. But they were all foreigners, you know? And so I ran that for almost 20 years, yeah. Later on, I ran it basically by myself at the end. Yeah. LJ: Did you -LS: And I did have a travel school there, too, for a while, but I didn’t own the travel school. Another lady from New Hampshire -- I was the onsite director, and I taught travel. And I used those people as my outside salespeople, so they were bringing me in business, too. So I did that for almost 20 years, yeah. LJ: Because I remember that as the main identification, travel agent. (laughs) LS: Yeah, they’re a thing -- they’re almost like a thing of the past now. There’s not as many around, because people do it online. 20 �LJ: Well, everybody goes online. LS: Online, [00:29:00] right, I do, too. You know, I do, too. Yeah. LJ: So what, just out of curiosity, what kind of travel did you do? Was it European? Was it all over the place? LS: Oh, I would sell whatever came in my -- to my door. (laughs) But a lot of it was the TNT, GWVs, charters to the Caribbean and stuff, because they were -- you know, people could afford it. I had a lot of people that were very ill. And I would try -- you know, convince them. I’d keep their rates down, and they’d travel more often, okay? I had some people that were traveling, like, five and six times a year. They’d just get away. But they were ill. They were, you know... And I would try to convince them, “You’ve got to do it now, while you can. (laughs) I mean, later on you’re not going to be able to do it.” And I had a lot of repetitious... And I used to book, with my outside salespeople, like, 80-some-odd people to Iceland for a long weekend, you know, things like that. And I did a lot of traveling. I -- that was the other thing: I have my goals, and I did every one of them. I mean, like an African [00:30:00] safari. I did a lot of adventurous stuff. I did the bobsled in Lillehammer. I climbed -- I hiked the glaciers in Alaska, you know. I climbed the Great Wall in China, you know. I cross-country skied in -- I don’t even know where I was in Norway, you know, with no guide or anything. So I did a lot of adventurous stuff. But that’s what I did. That -- so I -- before I let the agency go, I did all my lifetime dreams there, which was reasonable, because I got them all at an agent rate or a family trip, or for nothing. Some of -- you know, for nothing. My most expensive trip was the African safari for $1,800, which was probably an $8,000 trip. SB: That was nothing! (laughs) 21 �LS: Yeah, right, yeah. So... And I’ve been on almost 30 cruises, you know. But then it was a struggle, because the business was less and less. People were booking on the internet, and, of course, you don’t have the same people around. You know, they soon pass away, and you lose them. And the younger -- you didn’t [00:31:00] have the feeder system. See, with everything you’re doing, whether it’s groups, you have to have that feeder system. You’ve got to have the new people coming in. And if you don’t have that... And that’s where the school helped, for a while, but then the school disbanded, too. We didn’t get the -- you know, enough to make that financially worth her while to run it, because she lived in New Hampshire. So, you know, if you don’t have that feeder system going, as people leave, now your groups and numbers are lower and lower, you know? So now, what I do, Lois -- You want me to tell you what I’m doing now? LJ: Certainly. I’d like to know. LS: It’s nice, but it’s very hard. Well, it’s not hard. It’s emotionally hard. I run around to places like this and Councils on Aging. And I teach games. I teach card games. I teach back alley bridge. I teach mah jong. I’m heavy into mah jong. I travel around to tournaments, try and win food and money or whatever. But I do. I go to different complexes. I teach Rummikub, [00:32:00] whatever game they want. I’ll go in and teach them. The only thing is, you know what you see? It’s the decline. When you taught children, you saw progress. Like last night, one of my -- we only had two men in my Wednesday mah jong group at the Milton Council on Aging. Lovely, lovely, lovely gentlemen. Both of them married. Played mah jong with me all the time. One passed away two weeks ago with cancer, and one just passed away last night. So, as I say, emotionally -- 22 �LJ: It’s difficult. LS: -- it’s difficult. And it’s difficult when you teach somebody something, and, you know, a couple of months later, they come in, and somebody comes to you and said to you, “You have to teach this one how to do it.” I said, “I already taught them.” Their mind is going. They don’t know. You have to help them. I can’t take them aside and criticize them. They’re failing. So it’s a whole different world out there now. LJ: It is. (laughter) It is a whole different world. LS: It’s a whole different world everywhere, yeah. But emotionally, it’s hard, yeah, seeing seniors and seeing people [00:33:00] deteriorate and so forth. It’s hard. Yeah. LJ: Well, mah jong is a game which is played here. LS: Is it? Yeah, right, yeah. LJ: It’s... They play with quite a few people -SB: Do you know how to play, Lois? LJ: What? SB: Do you know how to play? LJ: No, not yet. LS: They play the American version, with the card. Do they? LJ: I think they do. LS: Yeah, they probably do. LJ: And some of them have tiles. LS: Oh, yeah. There’d be tiles. You play with tiles, and you play with the card. I even play two hands at the same time, 27 tiles. I’ve got people playing Siamese mah jong with me now, okay? (laughter) Twenty-seven tiles at the same time. But there is another version 23 �called Asian. If they’re Asian people, they play because they want to gamble quick. So they play this game, and it’s faster. They don’t use the card. But see, I like the card because it’s good for... I’m trying to keep people’s minds going. LJ: Yeah. LS: You know? LJ: This is very much of a Jewish -LS: Yes, it is. LJ: -- population. LS: Right, right. LJ: And it’s very much of a Jewish game. LS: Yes, community. So you -SB: It’s a game, yeah. LS: They would play the American version. LJ: Yeah, it’s a community game. LS: They’d play -- and [00:34:00] every year, we have to buy a new card, and we have to learn it all over again. Right now, I could play the old card without my card. I could play mah jong without it. But when the new card comes out, now, I’ve got... See, it’s good for my mind, because now I’m going to learn everything all over again. Yeah, it would be -- the Jewish community would be the American version, yeah, yeah. LJ: So that’s a wonderful thing that you’re doing for people. LS: Right, right, yeah, right. LJ: You’re going around the whole Boston area. 24 �LS: I travel -- right. Oh, I do. Well, wherever. I won’t -- don’t stay for long. I mean, I just stay long enough to teach them till somebody else can sort of be their -- the ringleader. I teach at the Milton Library two nights a week. I’m going to start at some senior complex in Stoughton next month, on Friday afternoon, teaching them whist, okay. I do it at the Milton Council on Aging. I do it at a Jewish community up in -- Firemen’s up in Randolph. I go up there, and teach them. LJ: In Randolph, yeah. LS: I’ve taught them hand and foot, and mah jong, and whist, yeah. People love to see me come back, because I’m very talkative, and I get, you know. And I -- oh, Quincy Council on Aging. [00:35:00] I’ve done that, yeah. So I try -- that’s what I do, mm-hmm. LJ: You are so full of energy. (laughter) LS: Oh, I know it. That’s what everybody keeps saying to me. Of course, some of them -- I mean, you know, they’re -- it’s the age factor, and they look at me, and they say, “Where do you get all the energy?” And I kept saying, no wonder my mother couldn’t stand me. (laughter) No wonder she couldn’t stand me. Because I’m on slow compared to what I used to be. I couldn’t even sit still. You know, if -- years ago -- this is no lie -- if you were interviewing me years ago I’d be pacing, because I couldn’t sit. Yeah, see. SB: I can understand that. (laughter) LS: Right, yeah. LJ: Yes. I can. LS: I don’t know where it comes from, but it’s not nervous energy, because I’m not nervous at all. I just -LJ: No. 25 �LS: -- I just -- I’ve just always been active, always have. I’m still out shoveling by hand a huge driveway in Milton, and nobody helping me. LJ: Wonderful, (laughter) wonderful. LS: Yeah. LJ: So I remember your saying that you were selling that house -LS: Well -LJ: -- at some point, but [00:36:00] obviously you haven’t. LS: I keep debating on it. Yeah, I keep debating on it. I keep debating. You know what the problem is? I really don’t know where I want to go. And if I really look at my life, I’ve - all my life, I’ve struggled. The only thing I was happy with, as long as I kept busy, and as long as I had food on the table and a roof over my head, I was a happy camper. Right now, I can say, not that I was smart and did it better back then, thinking of it, but I’m really living financially free, which -- the first time in my life. I mean, I’ve always lived and been very conservative. And now, hey, you want it, you can have it, you know. (laughter) But, I mean, yeah, because -- I’m really living financially free. So it’s a tough decision. And even though people said to me, “Now listen, you know that house would pay for you the rest of your life,” I said, “I know, but I intend to live forever. I don’t...” (laughter) You know? I mean, you know, granted, it might, but... And I keep thinking, you know... But then I have the rent on the other side. I have good tenants. And I have my daughter living there, and she pays me. And I keep saying, [00:37:00] why -SB: Are you happy there? LS: Well, yes and no. I’d rather be on my own. I’m not too happy. And then I keep thinking, you know, well, I’m not going to be in this big house by myself. You know, so, you 26 �know, I’m -- as I’m saying, it’s this -- you know, I keep saying sell it and get out, you know? And then I really -- I keep looking around, but then I don’t know where I want to go. And, you know, you look at these places, and some of the modular homes are nice, and I do like them, all one floor, open plan. I could just see me entertaining. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LS: This would be wonderful, right. But, you know, you get to these people, and, you know, you watch a couple walk in and, (snaps) boy, that salesperson will drop you like a hot potato. You know, or you -- you know, you check out the rules. I still hang my clothes outdoors, on my mother’s old clothesline. (laughs) You can’t do that if you go anywhere else. SB: Oh, no kidding! LS: You have to use a dryer. I’ve never used a dryer yet. (laughter) You know, and you have these little things, that me -- and I’m an outdoor person, and I love -- that’s [00:38:00] why I like my cottage. I had a wooden screen house there. I have a gazebo now. But, you know, you can’t fence in a place. You can’t -- you know, and there’s lots of things you can’t do. SB: Lots of rules. LS: There’s lots of rules, and not only that but maintenance keeps going up and up and up, and people, you know -- now they have a problem. And, I mean, I don’t have -- I might have had financial problems when I went buying everything, you know, and so forth, but I don’t have any financial problems now. So do I want to...? Yeah, I keep saying, you know, if we’re living like this, what difference...? So I rent cottages, and I travel. LJ: Yeah. 27 �SB: Yeah. LJ: Well, you’re still -LS: You know... LJ: -- in the area of someone 20 years younger than you, at least, you know, 25 years ago, where you’re doing things. You’re happy. You’re active. LS: Right. Oh, absolutely. I love everything I do. If I didn’t like it, I wouldn’t do it. And -but the minute I had problems on a job, I moved, because I didn’t care. I had so much [00:39:00] work, (laughs) you know? Yeah, right. You know, right, and you have to be happy. You have to enjoy what you’re doing, right. Oh, I did. I worked last -- oh, last Christmas. What did I do? You know, I got an email. This is really funny. I got an email, and it was from Jordan’s Warehouse, okay? I don’t know why they’re emailing me, but it was from the Enchanted Village, for a Christmas job. So I didn’t delete it, and I kept thinking about it, thinking about it, so I answered it. I said, well, if they’re going to hire me at my age... (laughs) Well, they said -- told me to come in. I went in for an interview. Oh, they’d love to have me. I went in for orientation, and they kept saying, “Oh, I hope you’ll come to work here.” So I said -- I had to do up a resume. Other young ones -- they’re mostly high school kids -- you know, they had to get working papers. They looked at me. I didn’t need working papers. (laughter) I had to do a resume. I said, “I’ve never done a resume in my life. And everybody I worked with -there’s nobody around anymore. [00:40:00] Nobody had emails then.” I said, “And I’ve been mostly independent all my life. Who am I going to get?” So you know what I did? I took one of the guys that worked for the town that I taught mah jong -- he works for the Town of Milton -- I said, “Here, Philip, would you fill this out and see if I can get a job 28 �(laughter) being an elf for Santa at the Enchanted Village?” He says to me, “What do I write?” I said, “You just write that I volunteer. I’m a senior, and I volunteer.” (laughter) I didn’t know what else to do. That was the truth. So he did. And you know what he did? He put -- I smile all the time. And you know what one of their requirements was? That you smile and you’re on time. I said, “I’ve got this made.” And do you know, I went there, and some of those kids would be like this. And they’d be doing a funny story, trying to liven people up and get them to smile, you know. And they went around, and what’s everybody doing? And they got to me. “I’m here for fun.” (laughter) And by the end of the time, I had the kids waving and smiling to me. And I did, I worked for Enchanted Village November and December. SB: Great. That’s great. LJ: So what did you dress [00:41:00] in? Did you have a costume? LS: Oh, yeah. Well, you didn’t think I went ordinarily. I -- we had red shirts, and we had to wear black pants and black shoes. But I had reindeer glasses with (laughter) antlers. I had a red nose. I was Rudolph. And I had all these lights that blink and went on and off and everything else, yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So you didn’t think I would go normally. Yeah. LJ: That’s wonderful. LS: So I had a grand time. And -LJ: Good. LS: -- and you can -- these young ones, they were so funny. They were hoping I’d come back next year. I will. LJ: Well, I hope so. 29 �LS: But I won’t -- I gave them four days a week. It was a little bit too much. (laughter) LJ: Four days of red noses. LS: I know it, yeah! SB: Four days of kids! Kids! LS: Well, no, it didn’t -- that didn’t bother me. I loved that. SB: Oh, no? LS: You know, we’re supposed to be here, greeting people. Next thing, they’d see me. It’s up and down the line, talking to everybody. (laughter) But -- and they loved it. They knew that. They’d laugh at me. They said that’s okay, because they knew I was entertaining people, keeping people from getting upset being in line, you know? So it was so [00:42:00] funny, no. I had -- they had a -- they laughed, and everybody hoped I’d come back. They threw a big party for us, too. LJ: That’s wonderful. LS: Yeah. So I was an elf for Santa. LJ: I want to know if they gave you a dozen blueberry muffins from Jordan’s. LS: They did give us muffins. They didn’t give us a dozen, but sometimes they’d have some of them leftover and they’d leave them there. We could take them home, yeah. LJ: Wonderful. LS: Yeah. Sometimes -- or we could eat them there. Yeah, right. And then we -SB: That’s funny. The Jordan Marsh blueberry muffins. LS: Right. LJ: Yes, yes. LS: Right, yeah. 30 �SB: They still put them out? LS: They still make them. LJ: They put them out. LS: Yeah, yeah. SB: I didn’t know that. LS: Yeah, they do. (inaudible) During the season, they’re there. SB: Wow. LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SB: Wow. LS: So that’s what I did November and December this year. I went back to work (laughs) -LJ: That’s terrific. LS: -- as an elf for Santa. Yeah, yeah. LJ: The elf. LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LJ: Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, you’ve given us a lot of information. Let’s see.... SB: Could I ask a question, [00:43:00] Lois? LJ: Yes. Yes, indeed. SB: There’s a couple of questions about DOB that I’d like to know. LS: Mm-hmm, right, yeah. SB: Now, other people have talked about the baseball games. You must have been involved in those. LS: No. SB: You weren’t? 31 �LS: No. I had been involved in it all my life. And what happened to me, when... I was the head of things and I trained everybody, and when my father took ill, I -- it was six months with him with cancer. And I had to lug my mother every day; [she] wouldn’t even talk to my father. It was just an awful time. And I don’t want to say people were mean to me, but a lot of the people who were religious or nuns were the first ones that -- my good friends, that never gave me any support. There was a lot of stuff like that that really bothered me at the time. And that’s why I really needed... So that’s when I more or less got out of it, okay. SB: I see. LS: You know, when [00:44:00] people came to me, and I was the head of the board, and somebody had... I would waiver their testing. You know, every year we had to be tested, but if -- I would give them -- I would waiver it for the following year and just not take away their rating. SB: For who now? Who are you talking about? LS: Well, when we -- whatever organization it was. It happened to have been the south suburban board that I had started on volleyball, and it happened to be the Boston Field Hockey Association. It’s not the hockey association itself; it’s the officials. See, the off... But there was -- there reasons behind it. See, I was out of the public sector, and I felt that everybody should be invited, and that’s how you build your -SB: Right, but I’m talking about the baseball games that they used to have -LS: Right, in DOB. SB: -- down -- for DOB. 32 �LS: No, because at that -- when all of that happened, I kind of got out of the sports. That was -it did me in. I -- they made me go and take a test when I wasn’t even in the right frame of mind, and I didn’t pass it. And I got up, and I said, there’s a message here. [00:45:00] And I just -- I got out of it. So whatever went on... And the fun games were not my thing. I was very competitive. I did do some fun stuff for the Boston Parks and Recreation and CYO, but that was back a way. But when you... And I had to really psych myself out to, you know, to -- not to be so tough on them, you know. But when you do things competitive, it’s hard to go back. When you do recreation for the fun of it at the beginning, you know, that’s okay. But when you get to this point in your life, you’ve either got to keep moving on, but you can’t go back and play for the fun of it. They play -- and the other thing was they did slow pitch. Slow pitch was too -- you know, that... I did fast pitch. SB: Ah! LS: Okay? SB: I never could have played with you. (laughs) LS: Well, see, slow pitch is even harder to officiate, because you don’t know where the ball’s going to hatch before it gets to the plate. With slow pitch, you’ve got it coming in. And, you know... So, to me, to go play for the fun of it, at [00:46:00] that point of -- and -okay. And it was a tough... So at that time was -- you know, that wasn’t my thing. I wanted to do something different than the sports, yeah. SB: Okay. And the other question I had was -- now, you were a rap leader. LS: Yes, right. 33 �SB: Can you -- can you think of any experiences that were really different, you know, like -- or difficult for you when you were doing it? I mean, it wasn’t -- it couldn’t have been... I know you’re a leader. LS: Yeah. SB: You’re definitely a leader, but -LS: Right, yeah. SB: -- like, was it... Was -- how did you do it? How did you...? LS: I really didn’t... Well, you know, some... Well, how did I do it? I didn’t have any really pro-- I can’t remember any problems. I had some interesting things that might have happened, but I didn’t have any real problems. I mean, there were -- you know, with anything. I think it was before people started to get very complainey and negative, you know, before that -SB: Sure. LS: -- [00:47:00] on TV, everything, you know, came over. Because I think we sort of -- I’m type -- the type of person that goes with the flow type thing, you know. And, you know, if this one said something, I wouldn’t go say anything. I’d just talk to this one. You know what I mean? So, you know, you don’t make an issue out of anything. Sometimes, you just have to let things slide rather than, you know... So I -- sort of that -- a peacemaker, probably, you know, more so. We all have to get along. We all have our differences. We’re all -- come from different places, you know. And the reason we’re here is, you know, to unite and be able to talk freely and support one another. So I never really had an issue. I had some interesting things when, sometimes, in -- I remember when one lady came out, and I think she came out to DOB. And I said, “Oh, you know, 34 �don’t worry. I’ll take you places and introduce you.” And we went to see... And she had -- and she had four young ones. And I went to her house one time. And [00:48:00] she had some mental issues, too. But anyway, it was funny. She had two twins in a -- in a crib. And I take her to this concert, because we were used to going to concerts, you know. Do you remember Betsy Rose? I still keep in touch with her, from California. SB: Betsy Rose! LS: Right, she -SB: Oh my God! LS: Oh, I loved her. Oh, I loved her. Betsy Rose, I -SB: That rings a bell. LS: Yes, it does, and she’s on Facebook with me. SB: Wow. LS: I follow her when she’s doing her shows. So anyway -- and I kid her about some of her records, her music, because I still have them at home. But anyway, I took this woman to Casselberry and Dupree. We got to the concert. Lois, I didn’t know anybody there to introduce her to. I said, “You, come... Here’s a stranger. (laughter) You come with me.” Now, she’s young. I mean, I’m older, you know. “You come with me, and I’ll introduce you to some people.” That was the first time, before I brought her to DOB. I took her to Casselberry and Dupree. We’re at this place with all these women, and I didn’t know anybody there to introduce her. (laughter) She must have thought... But I still keep in touch with her [00:49:00] today, but she’s been in a long-term relationship, and they even got married many years ago, down at the UU church in Braintree. And she still keeps in touch with me. So there were fun things like that. But as far as any issues or problems, 35 �no. No. No, no. The only thing, I think, after you left, it got a little political there, voting for one or the other, you know. That’s not my thing. You know, as I say, I liked Lois’ philosophy: everybo-- open the door, everybody’s welcome. Treat everybody the same, you know, type thing. Yeah. Yeah, you know. SB: Thank you. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Thank you very, very much. LS: Oh, you’re welcome. You’re welcome. LJ: Oh, my. Is there anything else you would -SB: Yes. LJ: -- like to add to that, to...? LS: Well, I thank you for the... It was a wonderful time and a wonderful experience out there, when, you know, we met some nice people, and we did. There’s a few people once in a while I hear from, but not all the time, socially. But we do lose that social contact now, with our own -- you know, our lesbian friends, because people are here, there, and [00:50:00] everywhere, you know? Yeah. LJ: Were you ever in a long-term relationship? LS: If I was lucky to make it to seven years, I’d raise the flag. (laughs) Yeah, not really, no. Maybe seven years, I did have a relationship. LJ: A number of people for shorter relationships? LS: Shorter, yeah, right, yeah. Just, you know... Yeah. A lot of fun. I’m a lot of fun to be with, but I don’t know whether you can make me settle down. (laughter) She’d just tell me I can’t go out with my friends, and that would be the end of that. Yeah. 36 �SB: Don’t you think, back then, I just remember feeling like people -- women seemed to be much more possessive back then than they are now. To me, anyway, they just seem to be. LS: I don’t know. I don’t even think back then we knew what to do with everything. We didn’t really see that there was a -- there was a future. I mean, I remember some that - you know, would sit down and say to me, you know, “I love you, but [00:51:00] I don’t want this type of life. I want to go on and marry.” You know, this -- it wasn’t the norm, I guess, for some people. But I think, you know, if we knew what we -- what we knew now, maybe it might have been different. I don’t know, you know. SB: It was kind of a protection, it seemed to me, that if you found somebody, you wanted to hang on to them, because, well, you were getting, you know... It was a protection for you. LS: Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I never -SB: I mean, I remember -LS: Right. SB: -- feeling that way with my -- with my relationship. LS: Yeah. You mean -- you think more for security reasons? SB: Security. LS: Well, see, I wasn’t looking for security. (laughs) I can -LJ: Obviously. (laughter) LS: I just wanted my freedom. I mean, not that I was out doing anything wrong. I’m just a social person. I mean, that’s the type of person I am. I’m just a, you know -SB: Right, it’s just interesting, yeah. 37 �LS: I love people. I love to be out. I mean, [00:52:00] you know... And I don’t think we really... I mean, there -- one -- my -- a mentor, I mean, that I had, a person that was in and out of relationship with me, but I don’t think we knew how to put it. We would -just played sports together. We played softball and basketball and everything. And then she got mad at me, and she went in the convent. (laughter) SB: God! LS: So anyway, then I heard she was out of the convent. So I went and looked -- called her up, (laughter) “Let’s get together.” But, you know, she -- see, she was -- she was mad at me because I had gone to her, and I -- here, I fooled around with this guy and had a child, and she got mad at me, so she went in the convent. But we never thought of putting all of this together, you know what I mean? We just played sports. We went out for piz-- the big thing was pizza and beer in my day. You know, I -- you know, you played sports. You went out to... And we’d -- you know, rather than going out to dinner, but we went out for pizza and beer. And then, I -- you know, come to find out -- and there was -- I mean, she was really [00:53:00] my soulmate. And -SB: She was? LS: She was my soulmate. And I look at her now, and, you know, and now we don’t even talk, which is so sad. LJ: Where is she? LS: In Roslindale. Oh, I know where she is. When... I mean, when my father was ill, and I hate to keep going back to it, but here was another one that was so close to me and never once gave me a call. I had people that were very close to me -- I mean, I had trained 38 �them as officials here. She was my soulmate. Never once gave me a call and asked me how I was. Believe me, I was hurt. LJ: God, yeah. LS: I was hurt. That’s why I wanted a whole complete change in my life. SB: Would you ever call her today? LS: I keep debating. I have the number, and I keep debating, and I keep debating, and I keep debating. She -- and then the sad part was -- now, my father -- she made goo-goo eyes over my father. That was another thing that made me kind of mad, because... Then -and I could see she didn’t want to see him. He was very ill with cancer. He [00:54:00] wouldn’t let go, and I wouldn’t let go. I was the culprit that kept him here. And I feel bad that he suffered like that, okay. But the thing was they -- her and the mother came to the funeral. And sent flowers. Very nice. Sent me money. But money isn’t the issue. It was -- I needed you, you know, at that time. And she said, “Well, of course you know I’d be here.” I’ve never heard from her since. That was the last time. I would have gone to her mother’s funeral, because I knew the family very well, if I had known. But I did not know until years later that the mother had passed. I would have gone. I would have gone. But I really, sincerely didn’t know. And I keep every once in a while thinking, and then I keep thinking. You know, sometimes you have to leave, you know -SB: Leave well enough alone. LJ: Well enough alone. LS: -- things behind. Right, right, you know? SB: Yeah. LJ: Because one can get very hurt. 39 �LS: Right. Right, yeah. SB: Yes. LS: I mean, it’s... You know, things are done, and I -- you know, sometimes you just [00:55:00] have to let go. You, you know, just have to let go, and you’ve got to move on. There’s more to life, and you’ve got to just keep going. LJ: Yeah. SB: That’s right. LS: You know? Yeah. SB: That’s right. LJ: Were there other women that you were particularly interested in? LS: Oh, yeah. I was with one relationship for seven years. But I don’t think she accepted who she was. I don’t think she really ever accepted who she was. But see, again, they were -like, I played ball with them, (laughs) you know, and it just happens, you know. But I don’t think she ever accepted, yeah, who she was. And then she became drinking a little too... I’m not much for people who drink too much. (laughs) LJ: No. LS: I can be crazy enough, but I don’t need anything... (laughter) You know, and to -- you know, and then she -- and then... Oh, she went into the golfing group and then, you know, got into the drinking with the golfing thing, and I was -- that was never my thing. You know, maybe pizza and beer might have been my thing, and, you know -- but that would be about it. But [00:56:00] yeah. And then that was for a while, and then that kind of ended. I got -- I didn’t like the drinking thing. Yeah, that’s not my thing. You 40 �know, I don’t -- I’d have a cocktail, but, you know one might be (laughter) -- be it. But, you know, to really -- when you don’t know what you’re doing... LJ: No, no. LS: That’s... SB: You’re not kidding! LS: There’s a lot of that around, and I’ve seen a lot of it. but that’s not my -- yeah, that isn’t... I couldn’t cope with that. I really couldn’t. SB: Right, right. LJ: Did...? Just another question. It’s not clear to me. When you were young, of course, we all didn’t have a name to put on things. LS: No, no. LJ: But was there a feeling, any feelings from your mother and your father that you were different? Or your mother was disciplining you for other things, saying that she wanted you to do -- get married. She wanted you to have children, etc. Was that what was happening with your mother? LS: [00:57:00] Well, the only -- you know, the only time she sort of was after me was when I wouldn’t marry the guy when I was pregnant. LJ: I see. LS: I mean, that was -- that was bad. But there was the times. And the other thing was -- and I look at it now, and I just took the blame for everything. Okay, I mean, I just took the blame. It was me. I didn’t want to settle down. And that was me. I mean, I’m not lying. But I -- it wouldn’t have been my thing with him, anyway. He would -- he would have been off running around all the time anyway. It was a big mistake. I mean -- okay? I 41 �mean, so I didn’t badmouth him. They thought he was Mr. Wonderful, you know, and I was just a kid that wasn’t going to settle down. And that was the truth. So I just took it. But, you know... I went into -- I was in the bad girls ward. My daughter hates me to say this, (laughs) and show her the tag, that I was in the bad girls ward at the Boston Lying-In Hospital. Not one person ever came to see me. Not one person. I put myself in the [00:58:00] Florence Crittenton Home. LJ: I know Florence Crittenton. LS: Mm-hmm, that’s what I did. Not one person came to visit me. Not one person came. Not my family. They didn’t come to visit me. And I had no place to live, so I had to go back to Florence Crittenton Home. They spent more time trying to get me, because of sports and so forth, and I was just trying to prove I was a woman. That’s why I was having this child. They wanted me to sign the adoption papers. You want me -- how many times I had -- adoption papers were in front of me? And I would not sign them. I told them, mind their own business. I’ll do what I want to do. I had no job at that time. I had a car. That’s the only thing I had. So I did agree to go back to the Florence Crittenton Home until my family finally would let me come in and -- with her and have a room. Then my mother changed things. She got so close to her, and everything changed. In the long run, see, if you stick to your guns, people respect you. They may not agree with what you’re doing at the time, but they -- my aunts all respected me, and I took care of every one of them when they got older. But they did respect [00:59:00] me. They did. After -- I had - I never had a family issue. And sometimes, I’d even talk to some of my cousins, who were younger. And I said, “What did your mother ever tell you?” “Just that you had a baby.” I said, “Well, that was the truth.” They never -- see, the family never talked 42 �about it. They knew I was different. They knew I... And they would just tell the kids that I was different, and I had this child, and nobody asked any questions. Family never, never... SB: You never did that. You never talked about anything. LS: No, I know it. They never talked about it. They never said anything. But in the long run, my relatives all respected me. They all admired me. And I never had an issue with them at all. LJ: There was a lot to be admired. SB: Yeah, I was just going to say... LS: Right, they never -- they never... But see, even though I did it my way, they saw that at least I was doing it. I wasn’t one that was living off of anybody else. SB: That’s right. LS: I wasn’t draining off of anybody. They saw that I was determined. I was going to bring this kid up alone, and I was going to work, and I was going to make it for myself. And I did. And I [01:00:00] never had a family issue. My mother -- my mother was a tough lady. And it may not have been because I was -LJ: Is she Scotch-Irish? LS: No. No, she was Canadian. And I think she had a little -- I don’t want to say mental problems, but I think she had a little depression problems, up and down. Behavior-type thing. You know, I’d come in as a happy kid, you know, and go to tell her something, and she really didn’t give a hoot, you know. I never knew what day it was, and I’d say, “Oh, I don’t know what day it is. I don’t know what...” You know, you, like, walked on eggshells. You didn’t know, you know. I couldn’t come home, so I always went to 43 �somebody else and told them what accomplishment (laughs) I had. Yeah, so that’s sort of like... My father you could -- was wonderful, but, you see, he would... And I used to sit there and wonder why he wouldn’t put her in her place. But, of course, he didn’t dare because then it would -- she would have been worse. You know, you have to... Of course, when you’re a kid, you don’t understand it. I look back at it now, and then I... ’93 is [when] I had to go home and take care of her, and then I took care of her sister with dementia, and, oh, they were tough, let [01:01:00] me tell you. And then after that, I took care of my uncle, their brother, with bladder cancer. Yeah. (laughter) LJ: Oh, boy. LS: But, you know, you do these things. I have -- you know, I don’t know. SB: I know a lot of people don’t do these things. LS: I know it. SB: Hello! That’s why we’re sitting here, admiring you. LJ: That’s right, yeah. LS: You know, I try to explain to people, you have to be happy within. You have to be happy within. If you’re out there taking advantage of people, you’re not going to be happy within. You know, you’re really not. SB: Well, some people will be. (laughs) LJ: I don’t think they are. Some people think they are. LS: I don’t think they are. I think they’re playing -- they’re selfish, and they’ll never be happy. Those are the people that are -- always look at the negative side, the downside of everything. You have to... You know, when the -- when people have discovered you and 44 �the -- and so forth, I keep telling them, you know what? There’s only one way things can go if they’re really that bad. They’ve got to go up. LJ: Yeah, that’s right. SB: That’s right. LS: And that’s the way you’ve got to think. We all have hardships. And [01:02:00] you have to figure out -- I mean, you have -- there’s only one way to look. You know? And I firmly believe -LJ: It’s true. LS: Anybody can do anything if they put their mind to it, you know? Yeah, I mean... You know, but I think it’s your point of view of things. LJ: It’s your point of view. LS: I wake up every day, and I’m thankful I’m here. (laughs) I mean, the -- we have a privilege. LJ: Yeah, that’s right. LS: Not very many people live this long. LS: There are so many people here, and we have three or four women who are passing their hundredth birthdays. LJ: Right, is it... SB: Wow. LJ: Yeah, yeah. LS: And see, that’s exciting. It really is. It’s exciting. Women never lived this long before. And it’s -- and it’s wonderful. I mean -LJ: It is. LS: -- you know, it’s wonderful. 45 �LJ: Yeah. Let me ask you about your daughter. Where is she living now? LS: She lives with me. Not me [01:03:00] living with her. LJ: I see. LS: She’s not very well. If you saw the two of us, you would think she was in her 80s and I was in my 60s. (laughter) LJ: Really? LS: Yes, right. Oh, yeah. She’s got too much weight on her. She’s got umpteen million heart, health problems. Oh, yeah. No, I’d be better off on my own. But she knows -- I’m never there, Lois. I just... (laughs) But I pay the bills. She can live there, but she’s got to make her own life. LJ: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, she does, yeah, right. Was she ever married, or...? LS: Oh, yeah, she was married, and she had two children. The house in Milton was a duplex -well, it still is a duplex. My mother lived in one side, and her and her family lived on the other side, okay? But I couldn’t have the responsibility of my mother with them, okay, because she was divorced with two kids. So that’s why I had to go home to take care of my mother, because it wasn’t fair to leave the burden. And I knew my sister wouldn’t step up to the plate to do anything, okay? So I had to go home and do that. Yeah. So... [01:04:00] So she was divorced. And then I couldn’t keep the house after my mother died, financially. So that’s why I rent the other side, okay? So financially I can stay in Milton. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so now she lives with me. And the granddaughter lives in Oklahoma with three kids. LJ: Really? 46 �LS: Yeah. She married a guy that was in the service when she was at Lasell College. And my grandson had a battle with heroin when he was in junior high school. He ended up with major heart issues. And after that, he died just before his twenty-fifth birthday, with three heart attacks. The valve was abscessed. Whether he took more drugs, we didn’t want to know. Just let it be. Yeah. So we lost him at -- he wasn’t even 25. What a waste. A waste of a life. LJ: What a waste of a wonderful life. LS: So, yeah. LJ: You are a [01:05:00] wonderful, outstanding, amazing woman (laughs) with all the things you’ve done. Let’s see. Is there anything else (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LS: Oh, I have to tell you -- yes, I’ll tell you another funny story. The last school I taught at was Fontbonne Academy, okay? So I had -- you know, I was coaching and teaching the sports. At the time, the schools only had basketball. We were lucky there. They didn’t have, you know, phys. ed. So, of course, I got all these programs going and everything else. So I -- when they had intramurals, I let the kids make signs. The cheerleaders were in charge of the cheerleaders. The basketball people were in charge of the basketball. And we had this big program going. And they had these signs around. And I got called down to the principal’s office. And she wanted to know what G-L-A-D meant. (laughter) SB: Oh! Oh! LS: And I -- and Sister Stella was one of these people that was so stern. And I said to her, you know, “I don’t think you [01:06:00] really want to know.” But I told her. And you know 47 �what it -- what it -- you know what it was for? God love a duck, because that’s what I said. (laughter) LJ: I was wondering where you get that! LS: And the duck was the mascot and then... See, all my life, I didn’t like swearing. So I used to say “God love a duck.” Every time anything would get upset, I’d go, “Oh, God love a duck, I don’t believe it!” (laughter) So here I am, explaining this, that my family just always took it. And of course, the kids did, too. When I was in gym and something was wrong, and I’d say, “Oh, God love a duck, I can’t believe it! If I can do it, you can do it!” You know? So they had these G-L-A-D signs up around the school. And of course, they were interpreted another way. (laughter) And I had to go -LS: Incredible. I had heard the expression “God love a duck,” and I said, “Oh my God, I haven’t heard that for years.” LJ: That’s wonderful. SB: Pam, Pam says it all the time. LJ: Does she? SB: God love a duck. LJ: God love a duck. LS: God love [01:07:00] a duck, yeah, God love a duck. SB: God love a duck. LS: God love a duck, yeah. That’s what I say. LJ: Oh my God. SB: She’s from Oklahoma. LJ: That’s marvelous. 48 �LS: Yeah, so that was a good one, yeah, yeah. LJ: Well, you’ve given us a wonderful -LS: Oh, good. LJ: -- perspective -SB: Yes. LJ: -- a wonderful section of life with your positive attitude, and we really appreciate it. LS: Oh, good. No problem. I told you I’d be willing to. Yeah, no problem at all. LJ: It’s wonderful, wonderful. LS: Yeah. SB: We really appreciate it so much. LJ: Good, yeah. Good. I hope I contribute. LJ: It’s -LS: You know, it’s the same thing, and I was saying this at Mary Pratt’s hundredth birthday. You know, the Boston Board of Officials and everything, a lot of things have gone defunct. Nobody knows the history and the hours of volunteer work we put into this. And I kept saying to a couple of them that were there, we need to do something. We’re honorary life members of an organization that’s just floating in mid-air. But I said, these kids have no idea of what -- how we got there. SB: That’s right, that’s right. LS: You know, I mean, they have heard of Title IX. But beyond that, [01:08:00] they think life and everything began the day they were born, and they have no sense of -SB: That’s right. 49 �LS: -- appreciation to all the work and effort. Because back then, we -- every year, we rated our officials. Women had to. See, that’s why we lost this -- the power, because the men don’t train. And a guy in pants just [uses] a whistle, and they sign them, see? SB: Yeah, right! (laughter) LS: Okay, well, we were training them. And every year, we had to be evaluated. Every year, we had to take a written test. We couldn’t get these people in Washington, with NAGWS, National Girls and Women’s Sports, to come down and make it a little bit easier, you know, because you’re only going to survive with numbers. And that’s why field hockey gave me a hard time in the officiating section, not the playing, because I’m trying to bring these people in. If you can officiate one sport, you can officiate the other. All you have to do is learn the rules. But you’ve got that bizarre, you know, pizazz. And see, they didn’t like it because lacrosse and field hockey were with the certain -- not the elite, but the [01:09:00] private school and some of the elite colleges, okay, you know. Oh, I have to tell you another funny story. You know, some of the girls had nothing years ago, before we fought for Title IX. Years ago, I went out . . .Helen Parker, who was the phys. ed. teacher out at Radcliffe, in Cambridge. Now, you know what the dorms are in that little piece of grass that the kids sit out and so forth? SB: Yeah, yeah. LS: Okay? By the dorms? LJ: Yeah. LS: That was the softball diamond that I had to go do umpire softball games at Radcliffe College. I kid you not. LJ: Oh, God! 50 �LS: You don’t know how many gyms we had. And we came down, and there was a window right there. (laughter) We could have climbed right out, or over the... Yeah, yeah. I mean, you wouldn’t believe some of the -- what we had -- we had nothing. Some of the girls had nothing. That was before Harvard would take them on, and that did more for -but that was title IX that did that. LJ: Do you have some pictures of some of, you know -- some of the work that you did? I mean, like when you were [01:10:00] officiating or when you were coaching, or...? LS: Yeah, I do. Well, see, these two ladies that did Mary’s... Kathy Bertrand and Linda Lundin, that live in Bridgewater now, they have a lot of my stuff now, because they’ve been interviewing me with the movement of girls’ and women’s sports, but not so much the Boston Board, but just girls’ and women’s sports, because something documented someplace so that there would be... So they’ve been doing that. They did it with Mary Pratt’s women’s baseball. I used to go to the baseball reunion for the World War II baseball reunion, and I went to upper-state New York when A League of Their Own was celebrating their tenth year. And I was up there for that, too. Well, they do all of the stuff for the reunions. And they sell stuff, too, you know, but they put that together. So they’ve got a lot of my stuff now, but I could always get it, if -- I mean, if -- you know, if there was anything that you wanted. But they have a lot of that stuff, and a lot of my movie stuff and so forth. Sharon has it up in Maine, you know? See, that’s what [01:11:00] I’ve been doing, like I’m doing now, with them. Because they’re trying to put something together, you know? SB: Well, yeah. I mean, it really belongs to them and everything, but if we could have a few pictures and -- 51 �LJ: Just something to... SB: -- you know, to go with your story. LJ: Your experiences. LS: What would you...? I mean, what...? Think about what you might like, because I’m sure I can dig up stuff, you know. Well, there was a book that Helen (laughs) Mackey –- I could go on forever –- Helen Mackey wrote on officiating, and I’m in it as far as softball umpiring is concerned. My partner -- that was one of my seven-year partners who couldn’t accept who she was -- was the one who was the photographer for the book. Dr. Helen Mackey was from Framingham State College. She wrote the book on women’s officiating. And in there is old pictures of me with my high school when I taught at Cardinal Cushing in South Boston, when we had to wear a skirt -LJ: Oh, yes. SB: Oh, yes. LS: To umpire. We couldn’t wear pants back then. SB: Oh, yes. LS: And I’m out in South Boston Field, in a skirt, mind you -SB: Oh my God. LS: -- umpiring a softball game. (laughter) [01:12:00] And Joan Hamblin took the pictures. I’ve got those. SB: I -LS: I go -SB: David would (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -LJ: That would be interesting to have. 52 �LS: I’ve got a picture of that. And then I’ve got a picture, way back -- I think I even have them on my iPad, because Sharon or somebody sent it just recently, came up with it and sent it, and want to know, “Is this you, and what year was it?” (laughter) And I said, “I’m not going to tell you.” But anyway, then there’s another picture of Mary Pratt, who’s a hundred, and Ginny White, who’s now in a nursing home, and Joan, who was my partner then, and myself. And it was -- be way back in the ’70s. And when we were officiating basketball, the four of us were there with our skirts on. SB: Oh my God. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LS: Because they weren’t allowed -- remember, we weren’t allowed to wear pants. SB: No kidding! LS: Can you imagine -SB: No kidding. LS: -- umpiring a softball game in a skirt? SB: And they were playing softball. Now, did they have to wear skirts? LS: Oh, Mary, when I played for Mary’s Raiderettes... When they played for me, you could wear shorts, okay? When I played for Mary’s [01:13:00] Raiderettes, her mother, Daisy Pratt, she made these little skirt things. And every time you slid, you had raspberries here. (laughter) Can you imagine stealing second base and sliding, and you have raspberries? LJ: But you also had a cap on, didn’t you? LS: No, I hated hats. LJ: No hats, no. 53 �LS: I hated hats. Mary Pratt wore one, but I hated hats. No, I mean, I didn’t like hats. LJ: There’s a picture somewhere of a woman of -- not officiating but playing a game with a short skirt that’s up to here somewhere. (laughter) LS: Yeah, well, you know, those -- in those days, that -- things were different. SB: Yeah, they sure were. LJ: They were different. LS: Yeah, yeah. LJ: Well, we thank you very much -LS: Okay, you’re welcome. SB: Thank you. LS: Yeah, you’re welcome. LJ: -- for doing this. We really appreciate it. LS: Okay. LJ: This is going to be a high point (inaudible). SB: Yes. Yes, [01:14:00] indeed. END OF LORAINE SUMNER FILE 54 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sumner, Loraine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Loraine Sumner, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-22 Description An account of the resource Interview with Loraine Sumner for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Sumner, Loraine; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2234b7d2d3c42b3e91d906aa24163f2c.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=Rt7sgmdDUWJK4iXE64ds8GEcqhF-IprWM4IDM1gbJsUyDpviqKl68jaE2tjhsZLxlYaeRaO1I5ZFkARZdaAze%7EDbiML%7Edpbk1%7EA-CPMY685IYsmsXmkyPj-h4ySu%7Eo9zqkKqwYjglJXm35HMHOlG9KApKnsLQZhaDA8JEJcELA%7Envrki83cdti088%7EE7FLRARaZ0S3M4FsuLYI%7ELhkfrM7CiCWMdLwxby4nEYWblsxfuYnPgEqT7iaux78Rjkk0UnmR7xl20rCpUolSP6LJGBWJ9kvgZo4WWCdOCr27A4G-I0MxqqfTAmYyTimo-13lz0RPJEi0YhOxgSD5SSc6%7E8Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM fadb86c681b87957d6174b2ab1dc0009 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/6c2c263fd0be79471a9caaf6e4f687e3.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=Caok9cLL9tvRdeXSdExi4ru6-vJ1pHgNugzn155K-dbvEI%7EFitT28AilN2xB7HDI-KHK7bq67uYO8EIUe3sUQ3frLfTDqF-jLC%7EVJFE8TKAyXlQSO3yYwW-FBBeCnkupKlO3GD9A6Ocw6NgKab8Q1cqNwY3MP07fPYO94nAblCrhA1H-AFi-HIpc100vssbSv8%7EuvuRr3M6xn8hlNC1LUPPtP5jpvDqIH8PXlSi4hFmBKrn6WyWfSzQl7jfwRZTNacpZYZEWiHtcM9yIULsevUQQt32ZKae2uqMD55RjYiJ6EMW8PfWeNFoMTE88g9E1lnseo4CW-xup%7EJyIRsaheg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 949758c3d555d207f5e8ce7578538d91 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Kristine Thurston Interviewers: Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, Laura Catanzaro November 26, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: Okay. Today is November 26th, 2019, and I’m Sarah Boyer, and I’m with Lois Johnson and Laura Catanzaro. And we are interviewing Kris Thurston -- thank you -- for the DOB project. Thank you, Kris, for coming, and thank you for all of these copies of the Focus. KRIS THURSTON: Thank you for inviting me to do this. SB: We’re really happy to have you. Lois, do you want to start? LOIS JOHNSON: We are delighted to have you. So, well, as you know, these interviews are going to be put into the project, the History Project in Boston. And I can’t think of anything more important than knowing what life was like in the twentieth century, in the ’50s, the ’60s, the ’70s, and ’80s, [00:01:00] for lesbians in Boston, and young people particularly. So I’m first going to ask you, because we’d like to know something about your life, and then we’d like to have some feelings about what you did in DOB. Where were you living as a child? What was your childhood like? What was your family like? We’d like to get a sense of that. KT: I was actually born in Boston and spent the first year of my life there. But my mother was from Cambridge, and there was an apartment that opened up in Cambridge in the same six-family [where] my grandmother had an apartment. So I spent some years there. Then my father got a teaching job out in the country. My father got rheumatoid arthritis [00:02:00] when I was seven, and that was a huge thing. It was a huge piece of my life, pretty much until he died in 2012, having a disease that gave him a lot of disability. But he became very involved in the Disability Rights Movement in the 1960s. So he was a great role model for me. He was also a trained actor. So my parents and I knew about gay people, so there was never any big hostility; although when I came out, it was a big 2 �shock. I thought my mother would be, “Oh yeah, that’s okay.” No. It was a big trauma but not like some people [had to deal with]. It took her a month or two, but then she came around, and it wasn’t too [00:03:00] bad after that. So I grew up in Cambridge, which I think it’s a neat place to grow up. The high school there is pretty integrated. But unlike many places, what makes Cambridge Rindge and Latin different is that it has a long history of being integrated, and still is, where usually it’s [a] passing phase; whereas in Cambridge, there’s always a lot of diversity. I think that is a wonderful thing. Then I was in Cambridge in the mid-’60s and the late ’60s. I had a very close friend who knew a famous folk singer. [00:04:00] There were a lot of interesting things around. I felt lucky to be where I was. LJ: What part of Cambridge were you in? KT: The triple decker, or six-family, I’ve been told was in a section called Dana Hill. LJ: Oh, Dana Hill. Of course. KT: Yeah. It runs between Dana Street and Hancock Street so it’s kind of up on a hill. LJ: So what was your education like, Kristine? KT: I went to a pretty crappy elementary school. (laughter) LJ: Mm-hmm. Public school. KT: Yes, Longfellow School. It was a tough school in a lot of ways. There was a lot [00:05:00] of kids who came from sort of a rough neighborhood in East Cambridge. The principal had been put there through patronage. There were good elementary schools. K 3 �through 8, really depended on where you lived, unless you were lucky to [score] very high on all subjects, and then you could get into a gifted program. So I always kind of enjoyed reading. But school [was] kind of boring. So I had to catch up a lot in high school when I realized that if I was going to continue blowing off school, I wasn’t going to have much of a future. Then I went to a community college for a couple of years. LJ: Oh, which one was that, community? [00:06:00] KT: I went to Mass Bay in Watertown for two years, and then I went to UMass and graduated. I almost was summa cum laude, but I just missed it, which was very frustrating for me. I was going to go for a Ph.D., and then I felt some things hadn’t gone well, and I just was going to take a break. So I got a job in the Boston Center for Adult Education, first, in the registration office. People[were]taking all non-credit courses, learning either to improve their skills, or for just learning something they liked. They had people who taught people about financial matters, so they could learn about stocks or how to manage their finances. They’re one of the first places that did that. So it was a fun place to work. [00:07:00] When DOB was in the Back Bay, and I was living in the Back Bay, it was all part of the neighborhood, really. LJ: Yeah, it was very much so. Did you have a specific goal in mind of what you wanted to do? Or you were interested in this type of education for people? KT: I really wanted to get a Ph.D. and maybe teach English. Then I wasn’t sure I wanted to do that. I kind of got into this job and got very busy, and was working a lot of hours. Then I got interested in computers, and did some computer support work. [I] worked for a small business, and then [00:08:00] I did an adoption in 1987, and then one in 1991. My son was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 1992. 4 �LJ: Mmm. SB: Oh! KT: Which was an optic glioma. We also adopted my daughter in 1991 from Romania. Things were pretty good with her. She had a little bit of a rough time during high school but came out of it. She now does quality control in a quarry, a limestone quarry. She grades rocks and bosses big guys around, which she likes. She has fun in a kind of a nontraditional way. [00:09:00] LJ: That’s non-traditional for a woman. KT: Yeah. Right. LJ: Where is the quarry? KT: She lives in Central Northern Maryland, so she’s close to Harpers Ferry. LJ: Oh, really? KT: She’s not that far from Gettysburg so she lives in a very rural setting. She has a little log cabin. LJ: That’s wonderful. KT: Yeah. So she’s doing well. For 30 years -- I don’t know if they had mentioned – [but my son had died of -- as a result of ]-- LJ: Oh, my. SB: Oh. KT: -- yeah, in September. LJ: How terrible. KT: And for 30 years, I’ll say, that really was the focus of my attention, you know? Just trying to give him the best life that he could have, and everything else kind of went out 5 �the window in a lot of ways. [00:10:00] I’m a poet. I haven’t published that much in the last number of years, but I’m hoping to work on that more. And I’ve done readings. I’ve had poems that were read at the high holidays in my synagogue in Florida, and [a] synagogue in Sudbury where we belonged. And that was a wonderful synagogue. It was one of the first synagogues to marry people who are gay. LJ: Yeah? KT: And one of our former synagogue presidents is still there, and she’s a lesbian. So it was a wonderful place with a lot of support. LJ: Where was that located? KT: Sudbury, Mass. Congregation Beth El in Sudbury. LJ: You remember Renee and Mimi? KT: Yes. Yes. LJ: Are they in the same congregation? KT: No, though I saw [00:11:00] Renee a few years ago. I did something at this reform mikvah. (cell phone rings) LJ: Excuse me, I’m sorry. I’m so sorry about that. KT: That’s okay. There’s a reform mikvah in Newton called Mayyim Hayyim, and they have classes. And I saw Renee at that a number of years ago. LJ: They’re extremely active in that congregation, the two of them. KT: Mm-hmm. I’m not sure I remember which congregation they’re in. LJ: B’nai Or. KT: Oh, yes. Yeah. Is that the one is Wellesley? LJ: Waltham or Wellesley. 6 �KT: Oh, well, I think I’ve been to some things there. [00:12:00] It’s a nice congregation. LJ: Well, that’s a very sad thing. What was the problem? KT: Ben had a pediatric brain tumor when he was four, and then most of his health problems came because he had radiation for it. LJ: Oh, I see. KT: He was treated with radiation as well as chemotherapy and surgery. Then he had a surgery that supposedly was going to help with that. But it didn’t quite get down far enough. So unfortunately, about 10 years ago, he started having some very severe strokes, and he was in a wheelchair. He had problems with speech and swallowing. We put in a lot of work with technology that he could use because his language centers were fine. It was just you couldn’t understand him. He had what’s called dysarthria, a very severe dysarthria. Then it also affected his swallowing. [00:13:00] And then the last year, unfortunately, he had gotten one of those hospital antibiotic-acquired infections. LJ: Oh, God. KT: And it really weakened him. In May he had a very bad pneumonia; we thought he wasn’t going to survive that. He did. Then he was in a rehab center, and he seemed to be coming back. And then we weren’t expecting this to happen -- he had a very severe hemorrhagic stroke. LJ: Had he been at home? KT: We put a lot of work into housing for him. There’s a lot of wonderful things about keeping someone with disabilities at home. But here’s the way it -- the way it ends is, somebody gets [00:14:00] sick; then you have a 40- or 50-year-old person with severe disabilities who’s never lived outside of their home. And you’re also scrambling at the 7 �last minute for a residential placement. And you can pretty much guarantee it won’t be a good one, because you’re doing it in a hurry. So before he was affected too much by the strokes, he had had his own apartment. Then he had had the stroke and he couldn’t go back to that. Then he was in an apartment in Framingham with a lot of supports, personal care attendants, [and]he had the Ride. And we had people coming in, and it was -- it was pretty awful. He was happy, but my husband and I were still working at that point. And we were also spending like 60 hours a week keeping him in his apartment, so he wouldn’t lose [00:15:00] his Section 8 Housing Voucher. There’s a wonderful program in Massachusetts to keep people who have had brain injury out of nursing homes, so he was on the waiting list for a year and a half to get into one of those homes, which are good. He had his own little apartment, but a lot of help with showering and dressing. It’s more care than assisted living because there’s a lot of help. They do all the medications, and Ben was on 15 different medications. I think honestly, it would have been hard for us to care for him as things continued to unfold. So he did pretty well there until he got the cdifficile. SB: Oh, yeah. Oh, sheesh. KT: Then he was just back and forth between his residence [00:16:00] and rehab and the hospital. It was almost a year before we were able to get rid of that. But then he’d lost a lot of weight, and he got the pneumonia, so... LJ: Well, we give you our affection and condolence for that. KT: Thank you. Yeah. So I was up in August because the last two years I’ve spent a lot of time in Massachusetts. I think more time in Massachusetts than Florida, to be honest with you. 8 �LJ: Yeah. KT: Because I’ve just been up and caring for him. I usually try to see Jeri, although sometimes often when I’m up, she’s down seeing her mom, who is in Florida. But I was able to get together with Jeri and Devra for lunch, which was nice. As I said, that’s when Jeri and Devra said that you guys were doing this. I said, “That’s great.” [00:17:00] And they said, “They’re looking for you.” I was so glad you got in touch with me, because I brought your contact information back to Florida, but I was so involved with things, I put off emailing you, saying, ‘I have to email her. I have to email Laura,’ and then you emailed me, so that was good. LJ: Wonderful. Tell us about the residence down in Florida. Where are you living? KT: I am living in a -- it’s not one of those continuity of care communities, it’s a condominium. People have a two-bedroom, or there’s some that are smaller. It’s a retirement community, but it didn’t quite stay that way. There’s a wonderful family [00:18:00] across the way from us. She’s observantly Jewish. Her husband is from Ghana, and they have five little kids that are just a lot of fun, very cute. If I had it to do again -- I don’t know. I left Massachusetts and realized I was more attached to it than I realized. But there’s some good things, too. It’s a lot warmer than here, for sure. (laughter) And you can go out. You can walk every day pretty much. You don’t have the snow and the ice. Yeah, so that’s good. And I’m lucky to be in good health, and -- LJ: Thank God. So many people aren’t. KT: That’s right. And it can change. You [00:19:00] know, I’m very cognizant that can -- LJ: Cognizant of that, yeah. So you do come back and -- KT: I do. 9 �LJ: -- on a regular basis, yeah. KT: Maybe a little less now because now we’re just coming up to see friends. LJ: Yes. KT: Maybe a little bit closer to twice, or maybe three times [a year] at most. Whereas I was up six or seven times a year for the last two years. LJ: Yes. Mmm. Well, could we go back a little bit in time -- KT: Yes. LJ: -- and could you tell us a little bit about how high school was, and when you first recognized an attraction to women? KT: I think it was there. I had some very close [00:20:00] girlfriends, but I wasn’t quite sure -you know, there wasn’t a lot of information around. So it wasn’t until I got to college that -- I was still having relationships with men. But I said, I feel like I have this attraction for women. But it was like, where did you go? What did you do? And I remember really being in college, and just feeling like I want to know more about this, I want to find out about this part of myself. Then I’d been living with one of the boyfriends; it wasn’t working out. I got out of that. And I was right in the Back Bay. I can remember reading a dozen times, the chapter on lesbians in Our Bodies, Ourselves. I mean, how many women read that a dozen times and said, [00:21:00] “We’re out -- it’s out there. The Booksmith in the Back Bay -- I think that there was something there. There were books there. There was something, I think, about DOB, because the office for DOB was very close. It was right in that neighborhood on Boylston Street. And I can remember just working my courage up to go to that first meeting. LJ: Four nineteen Boylston? 10 �KT: Yes. LJ: Yes. Forever engraved in my memory. KT: Yes. Yes. Going down that long, dark hallway, and thinking what’s this going to be? LJ: By the Knights of Columbus. KT: Yes. And then I met Jeri in the Saints, which was just -- that was just the best. That was the best [00:22:00] of the bars, yeah. LJ: Afterwards. About when was that that you started to -- KT: That was -- let’s see, I graduated college in 1973, and I had to do an extra class, because I had a thesis that got kind of messed up. Then I had to go back and do an extra class the next -- because I dropped a lot of things to deal with this thesis. Then in the end, I said I can’t deal with it. [I] had this horrible advisor who was just awful, awful, awful. LJ: Yep. Could you tell us where the work was that you were doing? What institutions? What colleges? KT: Well, I was in UMass in Boston when it was in Park Square. I thought it was a great education. SB: It was Public and Community Service, wasn’t it? KT: No, it was liberal arts. [00:23:00] They had a very good -- It took me a long time to decide, do I want to major in history? Do I want to major in English? Do I want to go with anthropology? It took me a long time to settle. And I decided I would go with English, and so it was an English Honors thesis that I was struggling with. So [in] 1973, I graduated from there, and then pretty much right away started working at the Boston Center for Adult Education. LJ: Mm-hmm. 11 �KT: And [at] the Boston Center, Paula Bennett ended up teaching some classes there, specifically in literature relating to lesbians. So I was able to bring things there, which were related to the community. Paula did some great classes there. She did one on Lesbians in Literature, [00:24:00] and she did one on Emily Dickinson. She was a university professor, so, you know. LJ: Well, we hoped to be able to have her interviewed. I think she’s going to write something for us, rather than be interviewed. KT: Okay, yeah. LJ: But we shall see. KT: She’s in Vermont, I think. LJ: I was trying to locate her, and I thought that she was in Arlington. KT: Oh, is she? Okay. LJ: Arlington, or there was another location. I can’t remember what it was. KT: Yeah. I’d love to be in touch with her, but -- LJ: Once I find her, I’ll put you in touch with her. KT: Yeah, if you would, I would. I read through every issue of Focus I had before this interview, and I was so impressed with, especially, Paula’s articles. They were really [00:25:00] interesting and scholarly. LJ: Could you tell people what Focus was? KT: Okay, Focus had been in existence before I got involved with DOB. And Focus was a literary journal for lesbians. It started out as being fairly small and Xeroxed, and in the end we were able to get it typeset. It was always hard getting subscriptions, but there was always a lot of submissions, although when we’d get low, we’d run a contest -12 �LJ: I remember those. KT: -- And then we’d get a bunch of different things that we could use because we wouldn’t just have the contest winner, we’d have all the runner-ups. So Focus had articles, poetry, short stories. We wanted to have a lesbian [00:26:00] theme to it. Some of it was so-so. Some of it was quite good. I think there were people who weren’t recognized as writers who also submitted. It was a lot of fun to work on it. We’d meet once a month and go over the different pieces that were submitted to us. You got to occasionally stick in a piece of your own, if you liked to write, which was good for me because I got to publish a few poems there. LJ: You got to write. Yeah. KT: Yeah. And just being with other women who were interested [in] literature, and who were lesbians. It was a wonderful experience. We decided that -- it was hard to go on. Paula got a job right around 1983,[and] the last issue I have is 1983. [00:27:00] I know that Paula had gotten a very good offer from the University of Chicag-- LJ: Of Illinois? KT: Of Illinois. The University of Illinois system. I think she was in Champaign-Urbana, I think. LJ: I think that she was out, and then she came back to the Boston area. KT: Did she? Okay. Yeah. SB: Was Focus attached to DOB? Or was it independent? KT: It was always pretty attached to DOB. Initially, the money, the financial part of it, was also attached, and then it became very difficult to sort everything out. LJ: We had to change that at some period. 13 �KT: We had to change that, yeah. And it was somewhere like 1979 or 1980, that they said they were separating out having the subscriptions. LJ: Yes. I have some details on that. KT: But Focus was always very connected with [00:28:00] DOB, both in Boston, and then DOB -- Do you remember what year DOB went over to Cambridge? LJ: Well, this was in ’69 or ’70. I think it was somewhere around 1975. KT: Okay, I thought it was a little later than that. But I don’t remember. Jeri might remember. LJ: Mm-hmm. I have some material -- KT: Yeah. LJ: -- that has lots of stuff in it. KT: Yeah, a little office in the Old Cambridge Baptist Church. LJ: Yes. KT: You know, both Focus and DOB were there for a long time. LJ: It was there for at least 20 years. .(Actually less, 1975-1992) KT: Yeah. Yeah. LJ: Yeah. And it was called “ascending the stairs” in order to go to your first meeting. KT: Right. LJ: Okay. [00:29:00] I wanted to ask you another question. Let’s go back to your beginning of going to DOB. Tell us where did you find out about the organization? Then what things you did within it. You have told us quite a bit about your Focus connection. But let’s start from the beginning as to when you first went. 14 �KT: I think it was 1975. Don’t hold me to that, but I’m pretty sure it was. I should have gone back and gone through journals. I probably could check that. But it was certainly no later than early in 1976. And I sort of think it was 1975. [00:30:00] I’m pretty sure where I heard about it was, [on] a bulletin board in that Booksmith in the Back Bay. And I’m pretty sure there was something about DOB there. But it took me a while. I would go in, and I would look at it, [thinking] what’s this going to be like, do I… LJ: Bikes on dykes, or dykes on bikes. KT: But I said no. The Boston Center, it was kind of a fun place, because there was a guy in the registration office, and he was gay. Then there was another guy who came in who was a graphic designer, and he was gay. [00:31:00] Then when I was looking for an apartment, he was moving out of his apartment, and he said, “my roommate” -- they weren’t involved romantically. He said, “My roommate that I was with, he’s looking for a roommate, [and] you’re looking for a place.” So I moved in with Richard. It was great because I was living with this gay guy who was very out and feeling very good about himself. So it really helped, because I would say, “You know, I really want to do this, what do you think?” And he’d say, “You should. You know, you’ve got to be brave, you can do it, don’t worry.” I started going to DOB when I was there. Then later when I was promoted, and I worked in the Education Office, planning courses and things, I [00:32:00] worked with two gay guys and myself. So we had a hundred percent gaylesbian office. LJ: Wonderful. 15 �KT: Yeah. You can’t beat that for a good work environment. Like I said, we were able to get courses set up that related to the gay community. Paula and I were interviewed for one of her classes on WCAS. You know, what was the name -- they had a radio show that was - LJ: Oh, that was Anne Maguire. Is that the one you’re thinking of? KT: Mm-hmm. Yeah. LJ: And it was -- I’ll have to search my memory. Sheri would probably know it right away. I’ll ask her. [Ann Maguire hosted a weekly call-in radio show, “Gay Way” on WBUR.] KT: Yeah, yeah. So I mostly went to just the support groups and [00:33:00] got to know people. I think in terms of being an officer, I don’t think I ever – LJ: I think you were secretary at one point. KT: I might have been. That’s sounding familiar. LJ: Yeah. KT: Then I got involved with Focus, and that was kind of enough. Jeri did Focus, and she did some other -- there was something else. What was it she did? I tried to remember the name of it, the -- it was some kind of -- LJ: Oh, Wild Women? KT: No, she -- it was in one of the emails you sent me. She did some kind of book reviewing or something she did. I tried to remember. Phantom Librarian, I think. [That was Devra.] LJ: I think I remember her doing a lot of book reviews. Yeah. KT: That was one thing she did. And that was at least loosely affiliated [00:34:00] with DOB. The 1970s were just such an exciting time, you know? So much was changing. There were these big Gay Pride marches in Boston. I mean, it was just really an exciting time. LJ: You always marched in the Gay Prides. 16 �KT: Yeah, we did. I remember one time -- don’t know where this picture -- there was one we had, like, this little stand, Jeri made cookies, and we were selling the cookies. LJ: I think I remember cookies. KT: Genuine gay cookies. (laughter) And I had a picture of that. SB: That would be so great. KT: I had all my pictures -- I don’t know where that one -- I was really frustrated, because I had some -- I do have a lot of pictures of Jeri, which I found. But I couldn’t find some of the ones I was looking for. But I have a lot of pictures; [00:35:00] I have all of mine. I have my parents’. LJ: Lots of pictures. KT: And I went through all of them. We went to all of the Gay Prides. And we went to conferences. I remember we went to one -- LJ: And it was a gay conference? KT: Yeah. And people were working on marriage. LJ: Yes. Yeah. Even at that time. KT: Even at that time, yeah. LAURA CATANZARO: And how did you get to know Jeri a little better? KT: So I met Jeri, and then we went out, and I was still kind of not ready to commit. And then, I don’t know. [00:36:00] Richard got involved with somebody, and it was looking like they were going to move in, and they were going to be a couple. And I said, “I don’t want to sit around and wait to be tossed out of my” -- so I said, “I’m going to get my own apartment. I’ve never lived on my own, had my own place, just mine. I really want to do that.” So that lasted about three weeks, and then Jeri kind of moved in on me. (laughter) 17 �LJ: Oh, was the U-Haul out the door? KT: But it was okay, because by that point we were pretty much a couple. So that was the place on Anderson Street. Then we decided -- we were there for about a year and then decided that we were going to let the cockroaches take it over. Then we moved to the place on Beacon Street. Yeah, I won’t say it was a long kind of courtship. [00:37:00] I remember the wonderful parties we used to go to when you and Sheri were on Appleton Street? Yeah. LJ: Warren Avenue. KT: Warren Avenue. LJ: The rock capital of the world. KT: The what capital? LJ: The rock capital. All the kids in the neighborhood used to dance when we had a dance in there. KT: Oh, okay. LJ: But we had an orchestra. We’d have all the little kids in their early teens dancing in the street. KT: Oh, that would be something to see. SB: That’s great. KT: And we’re at those years -- that was the beginning of when lesbians started having their own babies. You know, it was the beginning of the turkey baster babies, maybe. LJ: Yeah. KT: We don’t have to use turkey basters now. No. Things opened up. But it was the beginning of couples -18 �LJ: Having children. KT: -- deciding they wanted to -- yeah, [00:38:00] having children. It was really a whole open -- It’s not that it hadn’t happened before, but it started becoming more and more common. LJ: Well, it was coming full-sweep. KT: Yeah. LJ: At that time. KT: Yeah. So I think it was just -- They were incredibly exciting years. LJ: It was. Did you go to a lot of raps? KT: Yes. Yeah. And then Jeri and I used to -- we led some of the -- for quite a while. LJ: I remember that, yeah. KT: Yeah. We used to go together and lead a lot of the -- SB: Oh, the raps. KT: The raps, yeah. Yeah. Especially when we went to OCBC, the Old Cambridge Baptist Church. LJ: And you also took part in some of the other activities. KT: Right. Well, we always did. I think one of the things that I have just the fondest memories of is the Thanksgiving dinner. We also did spaghetti dinners, which were a lot of fun. And [00:39:00] Jeri was always -- liked to cook, and she did all kinds of cooking and baking. So she was always part of doing the spaghetti dinners. Of course I would come and also work on them and help set them up. But I felt like the Thanksgiving dinner was one of the most important things we did. Because it’s still an issue in our community. 19 �LJ: Of course [for] many people, it is, along with Christmas or Hanukkah, or whatever. KT: Right. It’s still a big issue. So giving women a place to come right around Thanksgiving, and having a dinner together was just such an important thing to do. And it was a great event. It was just wonderful, all these women together. And lots of turkey and [00:40:00] all kinds [of food]. And as I remember, the food was always pretty good. LJ: The food was terrific. KT: Yeah, the food was good. LJ: And lots of little children too, who came. KT: Yeah. LJ: Which was wonderful. It was really great. Well, let’s talk about -- will you tell us a little bit more about you and Jeri? I always thought you were a wonderful couple. But could you tell me a little bit about it? KT: Yeah. You know, I think we had a great relationship. LJ: How long did it last? KT: We were together for about 10 years. I wish I could explain better what [00:41:00] happened at the end. I think that both of us maybe had issues from our own childhood. Jeri was doing a lot of traveling, kind of pulling back. And I was feeling that was really not -- I think even a few years later, I think I would have handled that better, and maybe we would have gone to couples counseling or been able to talk it out more. But I can remember feeling really kind of deserted by her, but not feeling like I could talk about it. We were just kind of pulling apart. It wasn’t like I was giving up being with [00:42:00] women. But I said, ‘Well, sometimes I would like to be with a man.’ There was no 20 �movement[then]; now there’s a very cohesive bisexual movement. I think if that had been around, that might have helped us stay together. LJ: Yeah. KT: Because I think I would have had more ways to talk it through. I wish I had handled things better. But Jeri and I -- The good thing is that Jeri and I stayed friends. LJ: That’s a wonderful thing to hear. KT: It was not an acrimonious [ending]; in fact, when my son was about a year old, I actually went with Jeri and her mother to the southwest. But that was kind of a little bit too much for my husband. He was a little grumpy when I got back. He said, “I [00:43:00] think you’re pushing this a little too far.” We just really stayed friends, always, and have continued to see each other. Of course, I was friends with Devra, too. LJ: Yes. And Devra has been in this area for a long, long time. KT: Right. So I’m lucky in that. I think that probably what happened to me -- Right at that time, actually, I had had an infection, and then they discovered I had ovarian cancer. SB: Oh, gee! LJ: Oh, no! KT: And that was a big thing. I mean, I had chemo. I was lucky. Now, over 25 years later, I’m considered completely in the clear. I was lucky I survived, and that’s how I ended [00:44:00] up adopting my kids. It was like I was just involved with this cascade of things that kept happening -- having ovarian cancer -- LJ: Illnesses. SB: -- Adopting our son, who was completely healthy when we adopted him at four months. Then by the time he was three, he was starting to show some symptoms. People couldn’t 21 �figure out what it was. Then he started having like a -- his eye was deviating. They said we should give him an MRI just to rule things out, and it turned out that he had this big brain tumor. And then that just consumed my life. LJ: You’ve had a lot to deal with. KT: Now I want to think about what do I want to do for the next upcoming years. LJ: Yeah, upcoming years. KT: We have a wonderful [00:45:00] community center in West Palm Beach, which I really want to get more involved with. LJ: That sounds great. Yeah. KT: With the Compass Community Center. And that’s on my list of… I want to start going to some more of their things. I’ve just started to do that. LJ: And you now have a little time to do that. KT: Yeah. LJ: Could you tell us how that transition happened when you met your current husband? KT: Well, I had actually known him before Jeri and I got together. He had actually married somebody else, and it only lasted for nine months. But we had stayed friends. [I] remember he came to one of Jeri’s -- Jeri and I used to have a holiday party every December, which was a big deal. And Jeri would spend weeks making cakes [00:46:00] and this and that. So I ran into Myles on Newbury Street, looking very dejected. It had to be before the Blizzard of ’78, so I think it was 1977. He looked so sad, I felt like I had to invite him to our Christmas party. Then we would just meet for -- I mean, there was absolutely nothing romantic about it. Then after Jeri and I had broken up, he was different. He’d gone to California, he’d gotten an MBA, [and] he’d started his own 22 �business. I was sort of thinking it would be nice to have -- I was starting to hear that biological clock. Jeri had no interest in biological clocks. But I was hearing that ticking kind of loudly. [00:47:00] And I was thinking he would just be -- like Jeri and I would have a baby, and he would just be kind of a friend in the picture. LJ: In and out. SB: Right. KT: Life has a way of going in a direction that you aren’t planning it’s going to go in. SB: Ain’t it the truth. LJ: That’s the truth. (laughs) KT: As I said, part of it was, I got this ovarian cancer after my husband and I got married. I was diagnosed with the cancer; then we decided we’d adopt. That was a whole big thing, too. I was just involved in these [00:48:00] huge -- and he was starting his own business, and I was helping him with that. There were these big life projects; sometimes it felt like it didn’t leave a lot of time for thinking about who I was and where I was. So yeah, it was a difficult time for me personally. I mean, all I can do is go back and say to Jeri, “I’m sure I didn’t handle things well. You know, I just completely apologize and wish I had handled things better.” LJ: It sounds as though you have really developed the ability in your life to handle so many different things that have happened. That’s quite admirable. Many people fall apart. But you haven’t. You’ve gone [00:49:00] on. Which is wonderful. KT: You know, you have to. I’m an only child, and my mother died in 2001. So I was my father’s caregiver for the last five years of his life and worked very, very hard. It gets hard, because in the end, you can’t make it good for people, you know? 23 �SB: Right. LJ: That’s right. You can’t. KT: But he did pretty well. I found him a wonderful assisted living; it was a non-profit. He was happy there for a while. But he had a lot of health problems because of the rheumatoid arthritis. SB: Oh, yeah. KT: He had had to have another hip surgery in 2009, and then things just really went downhill after he had that hip surgery. But I always tried [00:50:00] for both my son and for my father; I worked very hard to make the best of whatever the situation that they were in. LJ: Other problems. Could you speak just a little more about your feelings about DOB? Was it important to your life? KT: DOB was just really central to both my life and Jeri’s. I think it was important to us personally, but we also felt it was really important for the community. And I felt DOB was such a strong organization because it was about supporting women. DOB was [00:51:00] welcoming to women, and I think was really a support, both for Jeri and I. I remember when there was a point that we did some trips to Georges Island, which was really fun. LJ: Oh yes, indeed. KT: And I remember there was either one or two women who were trans. I remember we talked about that, as an organization. LJ: We had three trans. KT: Yeah. But you know what -- I feel so proud of DOB that they made the right choices. So DOB was really ahead of its time, in terms of how they handled – in DOB [00:52:00] 24 �things got talked about seriously. I remember the women who were trans on one of the trips to Georges Island and just feeling really good that we were supporting [them]. That we were there as a support. I’m involved with the Palm Beach Poetry Festival and know a woman in the trans community from there. LJ: Oh, yes. KT: We’re still in touch on Facebook, so I get all her trans stuff, which is fun. She talks about the same things people are still going through. It’s really a hard time. I see a lot of her posts, and she’s very political. I know from what she posts that trans women -- unfortunately – it’s wonderful things have changed, but sadly, they also haven’t changed. It’s still tough, you know? [00:53:00] LJ: They are in the period now, in my opinion, where we all were in the ’60s. KT: Yeah. LJ: Of that theme. KT: Yeah. And there’s some really disturbing things happening in some Southern states, you know? LJ: Are you writing poetry now? KT: I do. I do write poetry. I haven’t written too much in the last couple of weeks. LJ: I think you’ve been busy. KT: It’s been a busy couple of weeks. SB: If you want to share a few lines of your poetry as it might pertain to this interview, or your coming out, or your -- I mean, in a way, you’re in a very particular position. You 25 �know, how you [00:54:00] identified over the course of your life to date. Sometimes it is only art that can get certain things across. KT: Right. Right. I have a few things in the Focuses, and I should have put a marker there. I’m not sure I have anything that I can share poetically right now. SB: Not right now. KT: I do try. LJ: We’ll perhaps add something to the interview. KT: But one of the things that’s happened for me in the last year is being aware of the bisexual community. I’ve spent my life -- Obviously, I have lots of ways that I fit with different groups or different people. [00:55:00] Having that now as a more cohesive movement just feels so -- it’s being able to connect with that. It’s (sighs) okay. LJ: Yep. You’re supported. KT: Right. This is who I am, this is where I am. I’m not this kind of freak thing on the fringes – It’s been really nourishing for me. When I had lunch with Jeri and Devra in August, I was talking about how that had really made a difference for me. You know, it’s funny, because I had the very good fortune to work in a place that I could be out. I could be out to my family; [00:56:00] I could be out at work. That was such a gift. I was really lucky to have both. And, you know, Jeri had both sometimes. She didn’t always have it. My polyamorous days are over. They really are. I think it’s really hard. My hat’s off to those individuals who are trying to make polyamory work -- good luck to you. (laughter) But if you’re bi and you’re with a man, you’re still bi. But the whole erasure issue is very -- and obviously, there’s a lot of people who know about me. [00:57:00] I mean, I wasn’t setting out to go into the closet, but there’s also a lot of people who don’t know. So here 26 �I am, and I’m saying, well look, you know, I was always out. So clearly I want to work on being more out. And I’m thinking, you know, now I have more time, and that’s one of the things I’m thinking of -- what does this look like? What do I do? How do I -- yeah. So and that’s a thing in the bi community, what we call bi-- what’s called “bi-erasure.” LJ: Bi--what was -- KT: Bi-erasure. Meaning that -- SB: Yeah, I was going to say, what does erasure mean? KT: What is erasure? It’s meaning that you’re not visible. You know, you’re not seen as legitimate either by the gay community, or the lesbian community, or by the straight community. You know, it’s the whole kind of [00:58:00] – “It’s a phase, it’s a way station.” It’s not -- and I think this is important for wherever you are, and whoever you are, is that identity piece. When that identity piece feels right, that, I think, is huge for somebody’s life. Okay? SB: Yes. KT: I think it’s taken me a lot of years before I’ve felt like that identity piece is right. But I wouldn’t have traded the years with Jeri or with DOB, or, you know, all the things that we did for anything. I mean, it was such an important part of my life. [00:59:00] My husband is very accepting that this is who I am. I’m lucky because not everybody, you know, gets that. LJ: (inaudible) That kind of relationship. KT: Yeah. I’ve had some very difficult pieces of my life, but I’ve also had some incredible gifts in my life that I have a lot of gratitude for. You know, just the women of DOB, 27 �incredibly strong, wonderful women that I had the privilege of, you know, spending much time in the ’70s and the ’80s with. LJ: It certainly was a wonderful time. KT: Yeah. LJ: And people such as you and Jeri who were in DOB at that time, and really taking an interest and doing extremely important work. KT: Yeah, and the first -- [01:00:00] like I remember Elaine -- that was in those years that Elaine Noble was in the legislature. LJ: Yes. Yes. And Anne Maguire. KT: Okay, yeah. Yeah. And those were first, you know, openly lesbian people in the -eventually Barney Frank. Our office used to be -- where I -- in the Boston Center? LJ: Oh, yeah. KT: Our office was across the street from Barney Frank’s office. (laughter) LJ: And Barney didn’t come out for quite a while. KT: Yeah, it took quite a while. But we were very -- LJ: And finally he said, ‘I’m sure, to hell with this.’ (inaudible) KT: Barney wasn’t hiding from us. We were very aware of Barney and all his -- you know. SB: And I always thought he waited until his mother died. KT: It could be. It could be. LJ: I think perhaps that was it. SB: But it’s weird, because she was an activist. LJ: Yes, she was. SB: You know? 28 �LJ: A very accepting person. KT: But, you know, sometimes it’s different when it’s your kid. SB: Yeah. Right. Right. KT: I mean, that’s what I found out with my mother. It took her a while before she felt comfortable. [01:01:00] LJ: Comfortable with it, yeah. KT: Yeah. But she did. And you know, and Jeri’s family was pretty accepting of me. LJ: Where was she originally from? KT: Jeri’s -- they were Chicago, and then they moved out here for -- LJ: Oh, I see. KT: -- I can’t remember whether it was for her mother’s job or her father’s job. One of her parents got a job, and they moved to Massachusetts. And that’s how Jeri got to Massachusetts. I spent a lot of time with her and her younger brothers, and, you know, families. LJ: Is she living in Massachusetts now? KT: She is. Jeri and Devra are in -- LC: Right. West. KT: Malden. SB: Malden? LJ: Yep. Yep. KT: And they have a house there. LC: You had said your father was a [01:02:00] little bit of an activist. Is that correct? 29 �KT: He was, in the 1960s. And a lot of the Americans with Disabilities Act -- this was before that, and I think some of it came out of -- this was a very strong group in Massachusetts, and it was called Association of the Handicapped -- it was different people. And it was an umbrella group of all kinds of disabilities. So they had people who had arthritis who were disabled, people who were blind, paraplegics. My dad said, “It’s a good thing we have the paraplegics, because they have a lot of energy, because arthritics are always fighting fatigue. And my dad got -- he just got so much out of doing this activist work of, you know. It was very hard, because people’s insurance policies wouldn’t let them hire people who were disabled. LJ: Not in those days. SB: Right. KT: They did a lot of work on changing laws [01:03:00] and doing that. And my father just loved -- he just loved doing that work. SB: Did he ever mention the Disabled Liberation Front? Disabled People’s Liberation Front? KT: I don’t know if he mentioned that. I think that was after his -- SB: It might have been a little bit later. KT: Yeah, I think that was a little bit later. A lot of things grew out of his group, you know? SB: Yeah. KT: But I remember there was one time they were upset about something, and they threatened to have a wheel-in in front of the state house. (laughter) That was when if you had a wheel-in, it would actually shake somebody up. LJ: Yep. KT: Now it’s, like, well, you know, we don’t care. 30 �LJ: They’re here again. KT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. SB: I did a thing with them, with the Disabled People’s Liberation Front. We chained ourselves to the Loews Theater down in Government Center. KT: Oh, okay. Okay. SB: Because it wasn’t accessible. Yeah. LJ: There are many theaters around where you can do that. SB: I know. LJ: They don’t have an access at all. KT: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. [01:04:00] LC: I think it’s interesting, the connection of the arc from your father to your son. KT: Right. LC: Were you, in the ’70s or ’80s, ever giv-- or after you adopted your son, were you ever given a hard time by the community, gay-lesbian community particularly, where politics got a little bit out of hand, and we lost some of our humanity in the process sometimes where, let’s say, oh no, you can’t have a boy child come to this meeting. SB: Right. LC: Or were you able to more or less integrate all of that? KT: I didn’t do a great job integrating. And I kind of felt when I got together with my husband, I had lost my community. That was really hard. Then, as I said, I got very kind of pulled into -- so there were still individuals I was connected to. [01:05:00] You know, I was always still friends with people in the community, but I wasn’t -- you know. That 31 �wasn’t -- I had to deal with disability things with Ben pretty much right after he was diagnosed, because he was legally blind. So we were always dealing with a lot of issues around the blind community in Boston. But I felt that having had grown up with my father, it helped me. It really helped me be a good parent to Ben, so that we didn’t overprotect him. You know, when he had his travel skills, and he was going to go on the subway, and you know, before he started having the strokes, he traveled on his own to some conventions for the National Federation of the Blind on his own, in Dallas and Orlando. [01:06:00] It’s scary as a parent. You know? You want to really protect your child anyway, and if your child is disabled, you do. I think if -- I’m sure I wouldn’t have been as good a parent to Ben if it weren’t for my dad. That really did help me. Then I think I ran into some people. I remember running into, as I said, Renee at the mikvah. And I was saying, well, people must really kind of feel like I betrayed the community. I’m one of these terrible women. Maybe I should have done things differently, but I, as I said, was overwhelmed by a lot of things in my life. I think I made assumptions about the community -- [thinking] how is the community going to view this -- that maybe wasn’t the case. You know? SB: Maybe. KT: Maybe. It’s been really difficult losing a child. I mean, it’s a big loss. LJ: It certainly must be. Yeah. KT: But in a way, it’s also like I’m taking a deep breath. LJ: Oh, of course. I mean, your life was identical with his, you were taking such good care of him. 32 �KT: Well, I also had -- I had a five-year period, and that five-year period coincided with Ben starting to have the strokes and my father needing -- [01:08:00] not being able to be independent on his own. I had to step in and really do a lot of care with him. There quite a few years where I was doing intense caregiving with both of them at the same time. I have to say, those were difficult years. LJ: Oh, yeah. Certainly. KT: I mean, there were times where they were both in the hospital, and rehab. So the only good thing I can say, is you get good at the caregiving. You get good at dealing with rehab. You get good at dealing with the therapist. You know where you have to push and where you have to be nice, and there’s a lot of skills to it. You learn what you need to do. You learn what you need to let go of. LJ: And be willing to really, in one sense, sacrifice your life for someone else’s almost. [01:09:00] KT: Yeah. I think I was able to hold on to -- LJ: Your identity. KT: -- some pieces of who I was and some things for myself. Sometimes it was just taking time in the middle of the day and going for coffee. LJ: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. KT: But just taking some time every day and doing something for yourself. SB: Right. KT: You have to. Because you can’t make it through if you don’t. LJ: Yeah. Well, you obviously learned how to do that to protect yourself from being so overwhelmed that you come up and you’re empty, which I have seen. But you worked at 33 �it. Could you tell me, is there anything else you would like to add to your total interview? Have we covered most of the areas? [01:10:00] Are you happy with that? KT: I think we’ve covered most of the areas. It’s been such a pleasure revisiting those years, reading through the Focus magazines. We all think as we get older, we have things with us. LJ: And we never get to them. KT: This is part of history. And in fact, I had on my long-term to-do list, [to] find a way to archive my Focuses. I actually have a copy of the first issue of Christopher Street magazine. LJ: Oh, you do? SB: Oh, my God. KT: I was thinking I might donate it to the Compass Center. LJ: To the history project. KT: Maybe they could have it as part of the history project. LJ: [01:11:00] Well, that would be wonderful to have. For them to have. KT: Yeah. And I think that’s the right place for that particular thing because they’re a LGBTplus center. LJ: Yes, they are. KT: That’s for the community at large. LJ: They have quite a collection of many things. KT: Yeah, I think they -- yeah. Yeah. SB: I had a question. I’m just wondering if you could articulate how being involved with DOB and being involved with Jeri, and having that side of yourself, for lack of a better 34 �word, how that’s influenced your life, going forward now to -- I mean, I know that you’ve been totally involved with your son and everything, but -KT: It was just such an important part of my life. And I learned a lot. [01:12:00] I mean, I’ve learned a lot about organizations and how to make little organizations work, and just being part of a community. You know, doing a lot of the things that we did. Like I said, I think the dinners were important. Some of the activities that we did. You know, being open about who you are. And taking risks. I don’t think I was a big risk-taker when I was younger. And I think I learned to take more risks as being part of DOB, definitely. SB: Because it was safe. KT: Right. Yeah. LJ: It was safe. KT: It was safe to take risks. Then you learned to do it, then you can learn to take, I mean, not pricey, stupid risks, that’s not what I’m talking about. There’s a good Ted Talk about risk, by the way. SB: Oh, really? [01:13:00] LC: Oh, really? LJ: Yeah? KT: Yeah, yeah, where they interview several people involved with things that are different levels of risk, like the guy who climbed El Capitan without -- LC: Oh, yes. LJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 35 �KT: They interviewed him, they interviewed other people. And they talk about on one hand, you don’t want to be taking these crazy risks that can blow apart your life, but if you aren’t willing to take some risk, then you’re going to have a pretty narrow life. LJ: Yep. You’ve got to take some risks. KT: I’m turning 69 this year -- LC: Wow. KT: As you move into your seventies [you don’t want to be] saying “Gee, I wish I had done this, or I wish I had tried that out. [01:14:00] I don’t feel like there’s big parts of my life [when] I wish I had done that, but I was too afraid to. SB: It’s wonderful to be able to say that. LJ: It certainly is. It means it’s a real life when you take some risk, without being foolish. KT: Right. LJ: Or what you consider foolish. KT: Yeah, I’ve probably had my foolish times. I cannot tell a lie. LJ: Well, we all have grown. SB: We’re still having our foolish life. (laughter) LJ: You can start singing songs about that. LC: But DOB allowed that risk-taking to be incremental, like step-by-step-by-step, because it was a safer environment than, let’s say, Jacques [a mostly gay men’s bar] in the South End [actually it was in Bay Village], or something, you know. [01:15:00] KT: Right. Yeah. Right. LJ: Oh, yes. 36 �LC: And there was that whole dimension of thought, political and personal, that allowed you to valorize what you were going through, like this is worth something. This is a great thing. This is taking heart on every level. KT: Right. LC: Both romantically and politically and personally. So the next step, you can do a little better, if you’ve been able to do the one before and before, instead of just leaping off of El Capitan. KT: Right. Right. LJ: Well, some people who came to the first raps, it was like jumping off El Capitan, because they came in and saw 20 lesbians in one room, and nearly fell over. (laughter) That’s how I felt, at least. KT: Yep. LJ: [01:16:00] Well, let’s see, is there anything you would like to add? This has been a wonderful interview. SB: Yes. KT: Thank you. This has been wonderful for me. I mean, I feel like doing this has just been so nourishing. That’s why when it came up, I said, oh, I’d love to do that. LJ: We really appreciate your being here. KT: Because it was so important to me. You know. SB: We’re just very -- LJ: It’s been wonderful. KT: I wouldn’t be who I am -- I wouldn’t be who I am if it hadn’t been for DOB and those years. 37 �LJ: Well, thank you so much. KT: Well, thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity [01:17:00] to do this. SB: Thank you very, very much, and thank Laura for getting us to you. LJ: Oh, yes. KT: And I’ll send you a couple of pictures when I get back to Florida. LC: Great. KT: I know right where they are now. LJ: And Devra can put us in touch with Jeri? Can she? KT: Yeah, it’s -- [01:17:00] LC: Maybe with Paula as our next gal to try -- LJ: Yes. SB: Yeah, we’ve got -- we’ve got the information on Devra and Jeri. LJ: We have information. LC: Yeah, we have a great interview with the two of them. KT: Right. Good. Yeah. LC: But Paula would be our next gal if we can. KT: Paula would be, yeah. And she has so much that she can -- LJ: Wonderful. Did you want those to go directly to -- or did you want to hold on to them? KT: No, I don’t need to -- that’s why I read through them some. LJ: Yeah. KT: And I made some copies of some of the ones that had something of mine, I copied that page and the cover of that issue. LJ: Yeah. 38 �SB: Yeah. KT: No, I want these to be in a safe place. LJ: Okay. Great. SB: Good. Good. LJ: All right. LC: And I will be bringing them to Libby on the 14th of December. LJ: Yeah. Okay, wonderful. KT: Yeah. Wonderful. LJ: Thank you. SB: Thank you very much, Kris. KT: Okay, well, thank you. [END OF KRISTINE THURSTON FILE; her poem follows.] Bliss Lips to lips, lips to lips—-this kiss is an asterisk of bliss. 39 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Thurston, Kristine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kristine Thurston, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-26 Description An account of the resource Interview with Kristine Thurston for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Thurston, Kristine; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/09a2847110c906414eea075779a0fb83.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=NHuBH-qw7Siw6--HuWMIUgqrKe8Wvyl6dg7Qc1Fq2fLLwgg4Fuw3HMDj6aiiv-0aLH1es4OoKf-LYcSlnVuM1sGeoay29Gz5pvEUtLNT6o6-t3Y8s3cx2ei05RWILbHGmJlq5IqqMpRAfyHOYPi5mrEzGrSX17nD2wOMwPZfhMvS8Uhs13mShAPFovtw5Y0csQdqtRFVt5XH8nWd7NdlpmBXI5PCHbS9yCYWURSmMyL2bV1ubeYfULX1udPnfxJGIrSK%7EPraaxH4N29530Zmaeqs7JmSxxkRAGfapD5dfuKGJbqCds6N4Vr6NT85y0mnzNZ3FxP1kQJHPBKguL9Rug__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 01bfe86a83b20656af0f934bb7937496 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/c8f200591e8e3040612287443daaf459.MP3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=nQMR7LK1rhDjlhU2CMJPwemrRX7b1-8DONz6IBSGA4T56ZrRZkEeIhLPTvQBPPAdvavJLRoDcGUJorQcJnEQnWLpzWapat6waGQp8FJwEmaa-Z512wnX-nKFWVBG5yGESPI35iLjDvwkmaTZPqs2xMyw3qBk-%7EYBVfQhEmeudU8KDV6OAa4maWPUoT5d5G3XUnifpBGnnNuW3pcT%7EGFLgzOaZAl6tglgOuZV19xdhyC2QNI9fybb8tabzo0bL3Rkf43tnOeWLw1opwynd8WN0JJKgzWL2epKvkP9K3VgtzFKVqlQ3bsWFrZdGjsMy-obTT4mIaPQ%7EfBKk6ucsubAaw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM cfec1d43151b478e8b91d655638af706 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/c70c320f1fa8fa8fd2dfbe38600b1c8a.MP3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ONzF4T6qB4KSqw1bEeaLy-vV77Vfm0kxac6ZNBtPMsX15pFClcUSpQm14WkbBV02Q1DGDKnTGANjvvwxk9c1dMWGPseqa6IgqVxDn8FBaDOedgZ4rLloSEOGNhjE8pTLew2KAPdTiMpVUx8JGSRC22AeScWsu6zcuBdluMrVqAIJwRMbKotkXlaQUnY55bmW2md1Ldcx3kPlYwSA6E4Mc%7Egyzqa1y5zZdQnZ-ALUqQh6nN7R%7En4Sde9pQtVIjLeRdpqMZnA0ORu%7EBPYD8AuCwftSpxnyAVO%7EV4iG9ZdejgjFaooDOVVLbBu2hrr33vGOiD7xEpVc4BVlngjndhtCog__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM f86188a2f4f0fb61aba4a37aaf471fb1 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/07fd1455cc285a43e673aa6a5a8665d7.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=fN%7ERUEhUDz9bSyd76rIeD6Gq%7E9OyROd5Pg-HUiXMTSgYa2nv4YA3tA25of6cW-Z8qRyIT0fLCzrjW%7EMJpWtDkF8Ycgy7guv3iL2AQWZmYYfwvQrtd5XiXn1MBuMKNG0AyVlDhTSLuqBUelpLX9rorArXMkXUT3JHuiDjXB0hwepPSkeimA%7EetOfI8ospbtErtAWgfQJ0AQE0WpuCeQfE9bMNNE-hUSL01Nh%7E7d4himlCznztysCbReS9QRYW4Ls7xuppbf-bmpOkVkowv-oHRSU9WoaQCXusC2cXlI4VGmHg1Bh13abCuY9qmO3Z85KC4xFno0%7Ev5I-AiCw1%7EtmGCw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 8356c13d1d95c9ae6fa9ced615a7d742 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Jean Ko Stewart Interviewer: Sarah Boyer June 19, 2015 1 �Beginning of Jean Ko Stewart Interview, Part 1 of 3 SUSAN BOYER: Okay, today is Friday, June 19th, 2015 and I’m at Jean Ko Stewart’s home in Brighton and we’re doing an interview for the LGBT History Project -- I always want to call it “herstory” -- in Boston. Jean, I really appreciate you taking the time to see me in the midst of all your moving and everything. You just showed me a picture of your parents. JEAN KO STEWART: I did. SB: Yeah. And so, you know, just tell me a little bit about them. JKS: My parents weren’t married. They were together for two months. They fell in love at age 40 and 41. My mother was 41 and my father was 4-- well, thereabouts. Anyway, so, he was here because his ship had [00:01:00] been hit by enemy fire in the Second World War. And she owned a school called Copley Secretarial Institute. She was -- she is, was a Japanese American. She was born here in this country. She was Nisei and brought up in Cambridge. Went to Radcliffe, graduated in ’25, and a couple of years later got a degree in education from Harvard. And a few years later, after she had gotten experience at Hickox Secretarial School, she started her own secretarial school, in 1939, called Copley Secretarial Institute at 585 Boylston [00:02:00] Street in Copley Square. And my father came here in ’44 and wanted to learn conversational Japanese. So, he went there and was with her for two months and somehow or other they created me. (laughter) And he took off and she didn’t tell him about me. And, well, he was never heard of again because he was already married and had -- he was married to a divorced woman with four children. When he was 26 years old, he married her in New Zealand. And so, he never had any children of his own that he knew about. And here I am. SB: You never got back in touch with him? [00:03:00] JKS: No. I never knew who he was until after my mother died. And my mother died in ’78. 2 �He died in ’75, so it was -- would have been hard for me to get in touch with him (laughs) except through ethereal ways. SB: (laughs) But there was no way that -- your mother had lost total contact with him and -- JKS: Well, she deliberately -- I mean -- SB: She did it deliberately, right. JKS: They -- both of them said that they wouldn’t communicate with each other. SB: Yeah, okay. Okay, so your mother raised you by herself, is that correct? Or -- JKS: Well, the person who brought me up, really, is Lillian G. [Averett?], who -- SB: Oh! JKS: -- was the person who took care of my grandmother before I was born, my mother’s mother. My mother’s mother had cancer and she was dying. [00:04:00] But it took her 18 months to die (laughs) after I was born. So, I knew her for 18 months or so but I don’t remember about her. Anyway, after she died, Ma took over with -- Lillian Averett, who I call Ma from now on -- took over. And she was more or less the mother at home while my mother -SB: Ran the -- JKS: -- ran the school. So, my mother worked from nine in the morning until 11 at night, so she would come home and wake me up in the middle of the night just to say hello. (laughter) Then, I’d have to go back to sleep again but that was all right, yeah. SB: Yeah. Despite the fact that your mother was working all the time, would you say you had a close relationship with her? JKS: I guess as close as anybody could have to my mother. [00:05:00] (laughs) SB: Okay. JKS: I mean, she was an only child. She was brought up by two Japanese people who met here 3 �in this country and married, in New York City. And I don’t know, she just -- I don’t think she had close relationships with, really, anyone. She was an only child, like I am, and -- yeah, I mean, you couldn’t get past the surface with her. I mean, she wouldn’t talk about my father, ever. I mean, she said that it was too hard to talk about him, so that was her way of getting me to stop talking about her -- him. SB: Him. JKS: [I mean?], yeah. SB: Yeah, yeah. It sounds like Ma was really -- JKS: My mother. SB: -- your mother. JKS: Right. She was around 55 or so when [00:06:00] I was born and I lived at her house. She -- her daughters -- she adopted two women. One of them was her sister’s kid. Her sister had diphtheria or something. Anyway, she died, leaving this six-month-old baby. And so, she adopted the baby and she also adopted a person who was from South Boston, I guess, whose mother didn’t want her anymore because she was half black or so. Anyway, she adopted her, too. So, she had two people that she adopted. SB: Now, to me -- I mean, I could be totally wrong -- but Ma looks African American to me. JKS: She is. SB: Okay. JKS: Right. So, this is her [00:07:00] niece and this is the other person -- SB: Oh, yeah. JKS: -- that she adopted. And this is her sister and this is the person that [Red?] is named after because I loved her. She was the first woman, I guess, I ever loved, so -- 4 �SB: Ah! JKS: -- yeah. SB: Okay, so would you -- I mean, like, did you identify -- not identify. When did you know or when did you think that you were a lesbian? Were you young? Were you -JKS: Well, Anita was -- worked in Hingham as a welder during the war. SB: Oh, at the shipyard? JKS: At the shipyard, exactly. And she was bi. [00:08:00] And she thought I was gay, so the first time anybody really said anything to me about being gay was Anita. She said she wanted to introduce me to the gay bars. She would take me to the outside of the bars and people would walk out of the bars and she’d say, “Those are gay people.” (laughter) SB: Wow! JKS: So, you know, I didn’t really identify as being gay then. I didn’t identify as being -- I didn’t come out until I was 20, in 1965, December 26. SB: You have that exact date -- JKS: Yes, I do. SB: -- in your head. JKS: In my head, yes. SB: Could you tell me what that day was like? And if I’m getting too personal, that’s fine, don’t -- you don’t have to answer it or -JKS: I was [00:09:00] a counselor at a Campfire camp and one of the junior counselors there fell in love with me. I had a crush on another camper at that particular time but she was a camper. I mean, she was only 13 years old and I was 20. SB: Yeah. 5 �JKS: So, nothing could happen between the two of us. And so, this junior counselor professed love to me, okay? So, after we left the camp -- she was, like, 17 or -- 17. And I was 20. We messed around in the bed on December 26, 1965. So, that’s when [00:10:00] my life as a lesbian began, I guess. SB: Yeah. Yeah. Did that turn into a love affair, would you say? Or -- JKS: She was too young. SB: She was -- well, she was 17, though -- JKS: That’s right. SB: -- at that point. JKS: She was and -- but she was too young in her head. SB: Yeah. JKS: So, a year and a half or later, or maybe longer than that -- she would come to my house all the time and we would do things together. And she was actually made part of the family and -- but she decided that this life wasn’t for her, so one day I showed up at her parents’ house because she had said that she didn’t want to see me earlier. I didn’t believe her so I went to see her and I knocked on the door and she said, “If you don’t leave, I’m going to call the cops.” [00:11:00] So, she called the cops and the cops escorted me off the steps and I was in a state of shock, actually. SB: Yeah. JKS: So, it took me a long time to get over that. SB: I can imagine. JKS: Yeah. Anyway, I saw her once -- we both went to Northeastern. I graduated from Northeastern and she was at Northeastern. She was a bio major, as I was, and I saw her one day 6 �with a fellow. And I beeped my horn at her and she took this guy’s arm and turned around and walked away with him. So, you know, it (laughs) added insult to injury. SB: Right, right. JKS: But -- so, anyway, that’s when I started going to therapy because I was brokenhearted -- SB: Sure. JKS: -- and I didn’t understand why [00:12:00] she had left me, yeah. SB: Yeah. I went to Northeastern, too, for my master’s degree. JKS: I did, too. SB: Oh, did you? JKS: For my master’s degree, as well, yeah. SB: Yeah. So, when you were going through all this, you were still -- you were living with Ma, right? Or no? JKS: I was at 6 Durham Street, right, at -- SB: Where is 6 Durham? JKS: Six Durham is off St. Botolph Street in the Back Bay. SB: In the Back Bay. JKS: Right. SB: And (break in audio) make any friends in, you know, like the bars or were you able -- JKS: Well, I was -- SB: -- to find other -- JKS: No. SB: -- lesbians? JKS: I didn’t do that. I didn’t want to come out in Boston ’cause I didn’t want to hurt my 7 �mother’s school. And I thought by coming out in Boston it would hurt her school. I don’t know how but -- (laughs) anyway, I was working at the Children’s Cancer Research Foundation, which is the Farber now, the Dana Farber -SB: Oh, yeah, yeah. JKS: And [00:13:00] the people there wouldn’t let me wear pants to work and I wanted to wear pants to work. And I heard that in California, you could wear pants to work. So, I decided to go to California, to come out, really, to come out. And I did come out in California. SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: In 1970, I went to California. SB: Oh, my God, yeah. JKS: Yeah. Well, before that, Ma -- (laughs) Ma had some Ben-Gay and some -- the stuff you take to make your stomach feel better side by side by her bed. And she screamed at me one night. She said, “Jeannie, come here!” And I came upstairs and she said, “I think I swallowed this instead of this!” SB: Oh, God. JKS: And, in fact, she had done that. So, [00:14:00] I took her to the Brigham and they pumped her stomach out. But from then on, really, she didn’t get better. I mean, they had to perform a colostomy on her. SB: Oh, my God! JKS: And -- because they didn’t know how to do what they know how to do now. SB: Right. JKS: And so her -- she signed over all of her money and stuff to her sister. And I remember thinking that she was going to come and live with us in Newton, ’cause I was going to move us 8 �to Newton, you know, after she sold her house. And so, she told me to go home and pack the dishes from the closet. And so, I said I would and I went home and started to pack the dishes. And her sister was there and saw me doing that. The next [00:15:00] day, I get a call from a lawyer who says, “Lillian,” which is Ma’s name, “says that she doesn’t want you to touch anything else in her house.” And I said, “Ma didn’t say that. Ma sent me home to pack her dishes for her!” I said, “You tell whoever said that they can go straight to hell,” is what I said. And I never went back to 6 Durham Street after that. SB: Wow. It was her s-- JKS: Speaking of breaking my heart, that really broke my heart. SB: I can imagine. That was her sister who said that, right. JKS: That’s right, it was. SB: But you never -- did you ever see Ma again? JKS: Yes, I did. SB: Okay. JKS: I went to Baltimore. She came from Baltimore. She left Baltimore because she was -- they were discriminated against there. Her mother was white and her father was [00:16:00] half black and half Native American. And they had a block in Baltimore for people who were of mixed race. SB: Oh, they had them in their own block. JKS: Because neither group were willing to accept them. SB: Oh, God. JKS: So, she didn’t like that. She didn’t like anything about that. So, she became a maid on -- railroad. And she came up to Boston then. 9 �SB: Huh! JKS: [Yeah, this?] -- SB: With that migration of African Americans to the North. JKS: Right. SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: Right. But, I mean, the rest of the family -- she was one of 13. SB: Oh, my God, yeah. JKS: And the rest of the family stayed in Baltimore. SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: So, when Flossie came there, she -- here to take care of her, she took her back to Baltimore. And, of course, Ma didn’t want to go back to Baltimore but there was -- I had no legal -- and I was 23 years old, so [00:17:00] I just -SB: Yeah, what could you do? JKS: I couldn’t do it. But I had a friend or she had a friend who was a dyke who had cancer. And before she died, she said to me, “Jeannie, you should try to keep Ma here.” And I said, “I don’t think I can do it.” And I couldn’t and she died. And so -SB: Yeah. JKS: Ma didn’t die but the other one died. Yeah, Ma died in ’76. I went to see her and Liz took me to see her. Liz is the redhead. SB: Right. JKS: And -- but we only stayed for, like, a half an hour or less and I shouldn’t have -- you know, I should have protested and stayed longer. But I think she didn’t want to see her in the state that she was in. You know, I didn’t even know what state she was in. 10 �SB: Yeah. (laughs) JKS: You know? But anyway, [00:18:00] she -- a week after I came back to Boston, she died. So, I think she was waiting for me to come -SB: Oh! JKS: -- to see her before she died. So, I think she was around 93 years old when she died. I’m not sure. She might have been younger than that. But in any case, it’s very sad, you know? SB: Yes. JKS: Just about that time, “Some Day We’ll Be Together” came out. SB: Oh, that’s right, yeah. JKS: Diana Ross and I used to sing that to Ma. SB: Oh, boy. JKS: Yeah, it was a sad, sad [thing?]. SB: But when you came back for a -- and she died a week later, you weren’t able to see her right before she died, I take it? JKS: Oh, no. Well, I mean, I saw her a week before she died, yeah. SB: Oh, you did, okay. JKS: A week before she d-- I didn’t know. They didn’t know she was going to die. She was waiting for me. SB: Okay. [00:19:00] JKS: And then, she looked at my hair and my hair was short and she shook her head. And I think, you know, sometimes I think that killed her. (laughs) See? Well, look -SB: You think that she knew. JKS: -- she grew my hair till I was 14 years old. I never had my hair cut till I was 14. So, she - 11 �SB: So, yeah, she -- JKS: -- she liked my hair long. She used to braid it all the time. Both of them would braid it. But I couldn’t take care of my hair. SB: No. JKS: So, I wanted to cut it. And I didn’t cut it real short until I went to California. Then, I had a gay person to -- a barber or something. He decided, “Hey, I want to give you a pixie,” so -SB: Oh, right, I remember. I had one of those. (laughs) JKS: He gave me a pixie and from then on, I’ve had short hair, yeah. SB: Yeah. So, you lived in California from -- JKS: For 14 years. SB: Fourteen years, from -- JKS: Yeah, from ’70 [00:20:00] to ’83. SB: Okay, okay. Obviously, it was easier back then. I was out there during that time, too. JKS: Were you? SB: Yeah, that’s where I came out. (laughs) JKS: That’s interesting. SB: It is! I’ll tell you about it later. But anyway, I was a little later than you. Where did you live? L.A. or San Francisco or -JKS: I tried to get a job in San Francisco. I went there with a straight -- well, a person who had a crush on me. I didn’t have a crush on her. Anyway, a neighbor, a black neighbor across the street on -- at 6 Durham Street lived -- had moved to there and had a husband and a couple o’ kids. So, we stayed with her. And I put my [00:21:00] head in this woman’s lap that I had come 12 �out with, you know, just lying on the couch. And the woman who we were visiting came into the room and saw me that way and made the conclusion that I was having an affair with this woman, which I was not. And she threw me out. She threw both of us out. (laughter) Didn’t want her kids to be exposed -SB: Oh, exposed. JKS: -- to people like me. But anyway, we -- there was a bar called The Cabin -- SB: The Cabin. JKS: -- in San Francisco, right. And it was owned by these black women who -- great black women. And they let us stay at their place. And -SB: Cool. JKS: -- oh, they were, they -- that was the best bar -- SB: Oh, wow! JKS: -- I’ve ever been to in my entire life, The Cabin. SB: Oh, my God. JKS: Yeah, it was in -- almost south San Francisco. [00:22:00] But it was just -- wonderful bar. SB: Oh, great. JKS: Yeah. SB: Great. And this woman that came out with you, I mean, you never -- JKS: No. SB: So, did -- but did you live together? JKS: Oh, no. She came out -- she drove out with me and then she flew back to Boston. SB: Oh, gotcha! 13 �JKS: No, she had a job. SB: Oh, I thought -- oh, okay. JKS: She was a secretary at -- SB: Okay, I thought she was moving out, too. JKS: -- the Farber. Oh, no. SB: Okay. JKS: No, no, no, she just wanted to go to California. SB: Yeah. (laughs) JKS: So, she -- SB: See what it was like. JKS: She helped me to drive. SB: Yeah -- JKS: So -- SB: -- okay. JKS: And she wanted to be with me, so -- (laughs) SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: What can I say? SB: Yep, back in the day. JKS: Right. SB: So, you must have gotten a -- did you get a good job out there in -- JKS: I -- okay, at San Francisco, they had a job working as a technician, a research technician, working with rabbits. And I’m [00:23:00] allergic to rabbits, so I couldn’t do that job because I - if -- put me in a room with a rabbit for -- 14 �SB: Oh, God. JKS: -- 24 hours and I’ll be dead. SB: Oh, my God. JKS: Yes. SB: Like people who are allergic to cats. JKS: Right. I’m just -- it’s just a terrible thing. So, anyway, I couldn’t stay there and they didn’t have any more jobs in San Francisco. So, I went to U.C. Irvine. I went down to -SB: Oh, okay. JKS: -- Southern California and got a job at U.C. Irvine in the pharmacology department. And I worked there until I left. SB: Yeah. Were you living in Irvine? JKS: I was living -- I lived in Costa Mesa, I lived in Irvine, and I lived in Newport. And I had two partners there. SB: Ah, okay. JKS: A young one and -- well, yeah, both of them were young. SB: (laughs) Younger than you. [00:24:00] JKS: Both of them were 10 years younger than I was. SB: Oh, okay. Was it hard to find a lesbian community in Southern California at that time? JKS: Not really, it -- Garden Grove was the place to go. SB: Garden Grove, okay. JKS: Right. SB: Okay, I know where that is. JKS: Yeah. 15 �SB: Yeah. JKS: And I forget the name of the bar there but everybody went to that particular bar. But anyway, the place I was living at was called the Sea Lark Motel in Costa Mesa. And there was a young woman working at the desk and we sort of had a thing. Troy Perry, I don’t know if you know who Troy -- Troy Perry was a Southern minister who started Metropolitan Community Church. SB: Oh, I didn’t know that. JKS: And so, he had come to Costa Mesa [00:25:00] and gave a speech about people being able to come out and so on and so forth. And this woman [Chris?] and I went to this thing and both of our mothers went to the thing. And her mother was with an alcoholic. So, she went to ACOA meetings or AA -- ACOA meetings. And so, that was fortunate for me because this kid was -- how old was she -- 17 and I was 27. So, when she found out about -- she was a Born Again, too. SB: Oh, yeah. JKS: So, when she found out about the two of us -- I mean, we really didn’t have much going - - but anyway, my mother was [00:26:00] in town and my mother -- that’s when I came out to my mother and she decided or we decided it wasn’t good for me to stay at this Sea Lark Motel. So, I went to Irvine. Had a place to live in Irvine. Yeah, but at the Sea Lark Motel, there were these two lesbians who were closer to my age living there. And I sort of went over and talked to them and somehow or other, we came out to each other, but -- and then, they took me to the bar in Garden Grove, so -SB: Oh, yeah? JKS: Yeah. I had a crush on one of ’em and -- but she was very faithful to the one she was 16 �with. I mean, she loved that woman, yeah. And she, the -- Robin worked at U.C. Irvine. You know, [00:27:00] the same place I worked. But she did a different job and -- yeah. SB: Yeah. How did your mother take it when you came out to her? JKS: She said, “I don’t understand it but if that’s how it is, then that’s how it is.” Yeah, so she was accepting of -SB: She was accepting, yeah. JKS: -- of who I was, but she -- although she didn’t understand it, quote-unquote. That’s exactly how she said it, yeah. SB: So, you said you had a couple of partners. Were they long-term or -- JKS: Well, [Tawny?] was -- let’s see, we started going out when I was -- when she was -- well, it was in ’72. And I stayed with her for three years. She was young and she was born in ’55. I was born in ’45. So, there [00:28:00] was a 10 years’ difference. When she turned 18, we moved in together, in Costa Mesa, on Hamilton Street. And we had all kinds of animals. She loved animals, so we had cats and dogs and rats and -SB: (laughs) Oh, wow! JKS: Well, I brought my rats from work because I -- SB: Ah! JKS: -- had been working with rats and guinea pigs and -- you name it, we had it. SB: Oh, my God, wow. JKS: And so, we were good for, I don’t know, three years or so. And at the end of the third year, she just decided she needed to do -- try other things. So, she wanted to go out with boys and she wanted to go out with other women and smoke pot and the rest of it. And that was all something that -- I didn’t want to have any part of it. And so, I -- again, I was heartbroken. And 17 �Gina, Gina’s [00:29:00] ex-girlfriend took me into her -- to their place. Yeah, Gina was the person that I met at the Sea Lark Motel, she and [Robby?]. So, I stayed with them for a while but it wasn’t fun being there with them. So, I found a trailer, a 10 by 50 trailer in Newport Beach and I moved -SB: Great! JKS: -- to that 10 by 50 trailer, so -- and I continued -- that’s -- I continued to go to MCC. At MCC Costa Mesa, that’s where I met Tawny. And I brought Gina and Robbie there and that’s where I met my next lover, who was -- I was with for seven years and nine months. That’s [Lee?]. SB: Was -- the MCC, was that about the only organization around at that time [00:30:00] that, you know, was more than just, you know, going to a bar. I mean, it was, like, supporting gay people. JKS: That was the only thing, I guess. Well, I think -- there were a couple of rap groups but they weren’t DOB. DOB was in San Francisco but I don’t think there was any DOB down in Southern California at that particular time. So, no, it was just going to the bars and listen to -what’s that woman’s name who -- the -- singing the -- what do they call that music? (laughs) The guitar music. Anyway -SB: Oh, folk music or -- JKS: No, no. SB: -- no, no, no, no. JKS: No, it was before the folk music. SB: Oh, you mean, like, Holly Near? JKS: No, no, no. 18 �SB: No, no. JKS: No. Holly Near came after that. But, oh, yeah, she was there. [00:31:00] I remember when she was a shy young woman and -SB: Yeah, she grew up in California. JKS: She did. SB: Yeah. JKS: In Ojai, I think, up north, yeah. And she and Meg Christian had a sort of -- everybody thought they had a thing. SB: They thought they had an affair, right, right. JKS: But -- and Cris Williamson, when all of them were together. Yeah, but that’s -- when I met Lee, Lee knew about all these things. And so, she would take to all these concerts and stuff, yeah. And I went to my first Pride parade in Los Angeles and then we would go up to San Francisco and to the Pride parade, yeah. It was exciting. SB: That is exciting. I mean, like, the first one here was in 1970. I didn’t go until ’77 but -- yeah. JKS: Yeah, I probably didn’t go until ’77, either. SB: Yeah. JKS: Yeah, ’cause I met Lee [00:32:00] in ’76 and then we probably went up in ’77, the summer of ’77, yeah. SB: Did you feel that -- I mean, did you experience, yourself, discrimination? I mean, did you get a lot of harassment from men or, you know -JKS: No. SB: No. 19 �JKS: Well -- SB: You were in an academic environment. JKS: I was. But, I mean, I went out -- I was bi at the time. I went out with -- I have a friend who I just went to see in Georgia whose husband I went out with for -- before they went out with each other. And then we changed partners and she went out with him and I went out with her boyfriend because she didn’t like him, this guy. Then, he took off on a motorcycle. I mean, it was (laughter) weird. And then, there [00:33:00] was this woman who lived across from me who wanted to be with me but I was too afraid to be with her. And fortunately, because her cousin had -- what do you call the disease the men get sometimes? Crabs, yeah. SB: Oh, crabs. JKS: And -- SB: Ugh, yeah. JKS: -- so, I -- she got ’em and I’m glad I never had the relation (laughter) with her. SB: Right, right! JKS: Right. SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: So, yeah, that was the swinging singles club. I forget the name of the place but that’s where we all met. And I’m still friends -- the guy that Maria married, they had two children together, they lived in Marietta, Georgia. And he died in his late 50s. But anyway, yeah. SB: So, you were -- [00:34:00] were you -- would you say you were starting to get politically active? JKS: Politically active. Oh, I don’t know if I was politically active, no. SB: You were -- like, you were at the Pride parades and you went up to San Francisco and -- 20 �JKS: Yeah, but -- SB: -- but not really -- JKS: I wasn’t involved. I didn’t get involved until I came home [again?]. I came home in ’84 with this young person and she decided -SB: You mean Lee? JKS: No, no, no. SB: No. JKS: I broke up with Lee. Was funny, Gina and I had this one night affair thing and she decided she was going to plant hickeys all over my neck. And when I got back home, I mean, I couldn’t hide the fact that I had these hickeys all over my -SB: No Cover Girl there? (laughs) JKS: No, there wasn’t any way that I could’ve hidden that. And we -- End of Jean Ko Stewart Interview, Part 1 of 3 Beginning of Jean Ko Stewart Interview, Part 2 of 3 SB: Okay, so you came back on your own. Did you -- JKS: I came back with a woman who was a friend of Tawny’s. Well, a friend of my first partner there. And she claimed to be Jewish. I don’t think she was Jewish but her mother never told her that she and her father weren’t married. So, she found out later on that she -- her mother and her father were not married. Her mother was a shrink. Mother’s still a shrink. And she wanted to come to Boston. That’s all there was to it. So, she found a way and I was the way. And once she got here, she said that we had different things in mind about what we wanted out 21 �of relation-- but she was, like, 18 years younger than [00:01:00] I was, so she went off and I was sad but it was good that she went off. And then, I started working for DOB. SB: Right. Now, when you came back, did you -- okay, was your mother still alive? JKS: No, my -- SB: No. JKS: -- mother was quite dead. SB: Okay, so where did you move to? JKS: Right here. SB: Right here. Oh, my God, huh? JKS: Thirty-two years. SB: Wow, all right. And you say you started working for DOB but what kind of a job, also, did you have when you came back? I mean, what did you do? JKS: I worked at the Farber. SB: Oh, at the Farber. JKS: I went back to the Farber and worked for a place called ImmunoGen. I worked there for several years and then I went over to a place called [Cell Corps?] Therapies. That was down on Memorial Drive -SB: Oh, yeah. JKS: -- 1256 Memorial Drive. SB: You want some water? JKS: Well, I should [00:02:00] probably go get some. SB: Yeah. (laughs) 22 �End of Jean Ko Stewart Interview, Part 2 of 3 Beginning of Jean Ko Stewart Interview, Part 3 of 3 JKS: -- wanted the -- well, not -- there’s an awful lot. SB: Yeah, all right. JKS: All right, so -- SB: So, how did you get involved in DOB? JKS: Well, the woman who was with me left, so I had -- I heard about Boston DOB, so I thought I might as well go there and see what I can do there, yeah, so -SB: Now, at that time, where was it meeting? JKS: In Old Cambridge Baptist Church. SB: Yes, okay. JKS: Yeah. SB: Right. And who was kind of running the organization at that time? JKS: Lois. SB: Lois. JKS: Right. SB: Lois Johnson. JKS: That’s correct. SB: Okay, and so you -- did you come in as wanting to do some projects right away or -- JKS: No. SB: -- no. JKS: I just came in and -- 23 �SB: What was going on there? Can [00:01:00] you describe what the meetings were like? JKS: Well, there were -- different days, different people would have rap times. So, there’d be maybe three or four people to run raps on different evenings. And so, I suggested that we do a singles rap because I was single. And there was a big commotion about it because they didn’t want people to think we were running a -SB: A dating service? JKS: Yeah. (laughter) That’s exactly it. And there was, you know -- but, no, we wouldn’t do that. That didn’t have anything -- there were lots of us who were just lonely people and wanted to just be with each other. And that -- [00:02:00] it had nothing -- it was not a meat rack, okay? It was never a meat rack. But, you know, I had been interested in counseling, you know, most of my adult life and had been in counseling myself. So, later on, I went to Northeastern, got a master’s in counseling psych, so that’s how my master’s came about. So, that gave me a little more credential around doing stuff like that. But it really didn’t matter. I just liked doing rap groups [and so?], yeah. SB: And how did you know how to do them? (laughs) JKS: Well -- SB: You know? JKS: -- we were taught, actually. We were taught how to [00:03:00] deal with difficult people and set ground rules, which are in there somewhere. SB: Yeah. JKS: Yeah. And so, only one person talks at a time and each -- say you had eight to 10 people in there. You give one person five minutes to talk and then you’d go on because otherwise, people would talk forever. 24 �SB: Yeah, (laughter) sure. JKS: So, there were -- and confidentiality, of course. You don’t take anything out of the group that you say in the group. SB: Was it topic driven? I mean, like, did you have a topic for the night or did you just kind of -- like, somebody would start talking and then everybody would pick up on it and -JKS: Well, I think it was -- I’m not sure if it was my idea but it was [00:04:00] an idea to have a topic so that when we walked in, we could have a topic to talk about. And if we exhausted the topic, then we would go on to something else. SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: But, yeah. SB: Yeah. Did you feel like they were successful, these rap groups? JKS: Yes. SB: Yeah, people really got a lot out of them. Women got a lot of them. JKS: Well, just the camaraderie, I mean, the fact that we could -- we had a place to go to and it was a sheltered place. Lots of these people were not out and they were professionals, lots of them, so -SB: Right, right. Did you know -- well, you knew [Mary Ann?] there, [Mary Ann Casella?], you -JKS: Yes. SB: Yep, and I’m sure some other people that I know, yeah. JKS: Yeah. SB: How long were you active with them? JKS: Well, from ’84 to ’93, probably, [00:05:00] or ’90. Probably 10 years -- 25 �SB: Oh, almost 10 years. JKS: -- or so, right. SB: Ten years. JKS: Yeah. I got elected vice president and then president for two years. When Lois wanted to step down, she endorsed me. So, yeah. SB: How big, I mean, at its highest point, how many women would attend these -- you know, belong to DOB, do you know? You have to look at the records. (laughs) JKS: You know, it’s in the books. I didn’t really -- yeah, no, I didn’t pay attention to the numbers that much. I just paid attention to, hey, we need money. We have to pay $518 or whatever it is a month to be here. So, you know, we had a membership fee that everybody paid and then we got a dollar from everybody at the raps [00:06:00] and that’s how we did it. But we had to do other things like dances, which, you know, I would hire the person, the deejay. And usually, I would pay it out of my pocket and get it back later on from the take because we would charge a certain amount for people to come to the dances. We had things like proms. We had a prom. SB: Oh, my God, really? JKS: People got dressed up and -- SB: Wow. JKS: Yeah, no, I have 1,000 pictures over there I can show you. SB: Oh, my God, yeah. JKS: And we had a classical music concert that Judy played in, Judy of Joy and Judy. SB: I don’t know Judy. I know Joy. JKS: Yeah, well, Joy’s partner Judy -- 26 �SB: Okay. JKS: -- plays the harp. SB: All right. JKS: Yeah, I mean, she’s fabulous. SB: Beautiful. JKS: Right. SB: Yeah. JKS: And we had lots [00:07:00] of other folks who were in the classical music concert that was -- and we’d have a variety show for gay pride and -- where we’d have 18 people or so to act, to play songs and whatever they could do. Like, oh, I forget the woman who did the poetry. Oh, do you remember her? Anyway, there was a woman who did poetry. Yeah, I have it -SB: And all kinds of things. JKS: -- I have it all on tape, probably. SB: Yeah. JKS: Yeah, but we’ll have to look at them to make sure that -- yeah. SB: Wow. JKS: Yeah, so -- and I’d have a blood drive every year. They’d get lots of blood for the Red Cross. That was funny, we’d [00:08:00] have a blood drop person (laughter) who was dressed as a blood drop and she would be outside getting people to come in, yeah. We got as many as 48 pints of blood one time, so -SB: Wow, yeah. JKS: -- that was good. SB: Yeah. 27 �JKS: And, of course, every year, we had the Thanksgiving dinner where [Sherry?] and a bunch of other people would cook and other people would come to the Thanksgiving dinner. SB: Right there at OCBC? JKS: Right in OCBC. SB: Nice, nice. JKS: That’s where [Kathy?] and I -- well, my 25 year relationship and I met, at the Thanksgiving dinner. SB: Oh! JKS: In ’89. SB: Yeah, yeah. Do you want to talk about that at all or no? JKS: She was [00:09:00] newly out and in love with love, I guess, in love with being a lesbian. So, you know, she fell head over heels with me and I with her and -SB: How wonderful. JKS: Well, I suppose. She was Roman Catholic and had six children. And two of them came to live with us here for five years. Two of the boys. And the girls would come in and out occasionally to visit. I mean, to stay for a while. And then, she went back in the closet and -after five years of sending the kids to school. And she went and got her master’s in counseling and decided [00:10:00] to leave. So, that’s what she did. So, I had to deal with it and, in the meantime, I had gotten rheumatoid arthritis. And before that, I had started a running club at DOB. And we went to New York a couple of times and ran in the New York one. And when they celebrated 20 years of Stonewall, something like that, we brought the DOB flag there and we marched down the street. SB: Wow. 28 �JKS: Down Fifth Avenue. It’s quite a thing to march down -- SB: My God. JKS: -- Fifth Avenue. SB: It must have been incredible. JKS: It was incredible, yeah. But it was fun to run in the races. You know, I’ve -- I ran in Gay Games II marathon and that was the only marathon I’ve ever run. But I did run that marathon. [00:11:00] SB: Was that here? JKS: That was in San Francisco. SB: Okay. JKS: Yeah. SB: Yeah, good -- JKS: The hills -- SB: -- for you. JKS: -- of San Francisco. SB: The hills! JKS: Yeah. SB: My God, can you imagine? Oh! JKS: Well, five hours, 15 minutes, and 45 seconds. SB: Oh! (laughs) Wow. JKS: But it’s okay. SB: Oh, grueling! JKS: Yeah. 29 �SB: We don’t have anything in Heartbreak Hill compared to San Francisco. God! Anyway -- JKS: Yeah, so I have plenty of pictures of the running group and -- SB: You’ve had quite a life. JKS: Mm-hmm. SB: You’ve had a long, long-term relationship. A real marriage. JKS: Sort of. But, you know, I mean, she went back in the closet, so -- SB: Yeah. JKS: -- and she has 11 grandchildren now. And she doesn’t want the in-laws to know [00:12:00] that she’s gay. So, I was cut off from that. But, I mean, we probably chose each other because of our backgrounds. She -- her father was an alcoholic and her husband was an alcoholic. And my mother used to hide me behind doors because I was an illegitimate child. So, we just glommed onto each other and then repeated, you know -- she repeated her thing about keeping me a secret and then I was kept a secret because I was used to being kept a secret, so -but I just couldn’t handle it anymore. It got to the point where the neighborhood that she moved [00:13:00] into was Catholic and she didn’t want the people in the neighborhood to know. And so, I just decided I can’t -SB: That -- yeah. JKS: -- this is it. This is -- I can’t do it anymore. I am too out. (laughs) I have been out all my life. I didn’t become a teacher. I didn’t join the service. I tried to join the service but when they asked me in the health form had I had a lesbian relationship I said I did and the recruiting officer said, “They won’t take you if you say you did.” And I said, “Sorry.” (laughs) SB: Yeah, so you didn’t have that burden, I mean, of, you know, hiding. JKS: No. I wouldn’t hide. And it’s because I was hidden as a child. 30 �SB: Yes. JKS: And I -- SB: You wouldn’t do it any-- JKS: -- wouldn’t do it. SB: No. JKS: I wouldn’t do it. SB: Right. [00:14:00] JKS: So -- SB: Do you have any regrets about your life in terms of, you know, being -- JKS: Well, if I had to do it over again, I mean, I had a thing for my boss in California, who was a man. And he wanted us to have children. This was after Lee and I broke up. He wanted us to have children but I wouldn’t have children without marrying him, you see? SB: Yeah. JKS: And I don’t think he had a divorce at the time with his wife and I don’t think he wanted to get married. So, that went by the wayside. But he wanted to have a child with me, you know? [00:15:00] And that was appealing to me because I wanted to have a child. But I was always afraid to have children, too, so, yeah. Anyway -SB: But you -- and you certainly had some children, in a way, when they were -- JKS: Yes, I did. SB: -- living here. JKS: Oh, yeah, the kids? SB: Yeah. JKS: Yeah, well, they went to high school here. We sent them to Catholic school. 31 �SB: Yeah. JKS: Yeah. SB: Jean, I want to thank you so much for being incredibly frank and honest about your life. I really appreciate it very much. And I also appreciate all the work you’ve done for DOB. You know, when they were talking yesterday at that lunch about the people that have, you know, endured and -- it isn’t just that they’ve endured. The people who have worked, who have come before these kids who were just, like, unbelievable. Do you believe it sometimes? [00:16:00] You know, they -JKS: No. SB: -- don’t have any of this -- JKS: That we -- SB: -- that we had -- JKS: -- had to deal with, right. SB: -- that we had to deal with. JKS: Right, so -- SB: But that’s our pride, that they don’t. JKS: Well, after I left DOB and after Kathy went away, I -- you know, I was still with her but she was not living with me at that time and I was very lonely without she and the kids. So, I went to Arlington Street. SB: Oh, yeah, right. JKS: And I learned Kundalini yoga. And from there on, I’ve been teaching Kundalini yoga. Kundalini yoga comes from the Sikh tradition, okay? And the Sikhs aren’t crazy about gays, okay, and lesbians. So, I like the technology that it provided us. 32 �SB: The technology? JKS: Well, that’s what they call it, [00:17:00] the -- yoga provides. SB: Okay. JKS: And I wanted the gay community to be able to experience that and not feel badly about being gay. So, I brought Kundalini yoga to Arlington Street Church and I’ve been doing it for 20 years, once a week. And the money is donated to the church. SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: Yeah. And I do Connections groups there. SB: Which are? JKS: Well, it’s part of the U.U. tradition. It’s part of our spiritual practice where we come together and we have a topic that we discuss. Well, we don’t discuss, actually. It’s like going to an A.A. meeting. You don’t -- there’s no crosstalk. But you check in, [00:18:00] you say what you’ve been doing for the past couple of weeks, and then there’s a topic, like spirituality, for example, that you would talk about: your own spirituality and your history of spirituality, and go around from person to person. But I do that with people who are available from 10:30 to 12:00 on Mondays, the first and third Mondays of the month. SB: And is it -- and -- JKS: [From the?] church. It’s part of the church group. SB: Yeah. JKS: Yeah. SB: Is it -- it isn’t -- JKS: [Sue is part of it?]. SB: -- one to one, it’s a group. 33 �JKS: It’s a group. SB: Okay. JKS: I like -- SB: What a great way to start the week! I love groups. JKS: Well, yeah, I mean -- SB: Yeah. JKS: -- Sue goes to it and -- SB: Oh, Sue [Reemer?]? JKS: -- Bob [Sessions?] goes, too. So, you know -- SB: That’s wonderful. JKS: They love it, so -- SB: Yeah, yeah. JKS: So, I think this would be good for us, as well. I think we should [00:19:00] have some sort of discussion groups in [Rainbow?] or wherever. SB: Yeah, I agree. JKS: But I don’t want to take it on. (laughs) SB: You don’t want to -- no, you don’t need to take it on. JKS: I’m tired, you know? SB: Yeah. JKS: I’ve done my job. SB: Yeah. JKS: But I do enjoy doing groups, so it would be good to -- that’s why I wanted to look up what we did in the singles group, so -- to see if we could carry on the tradition, [yeah?]. 34 �SB: Okay, okay. JKS: Yeah, for older folks. SB: Yes. JKS: Yeah. SB: Yes, definitely. JKS: Yeah. SB: Okay, well, thank you very, very much, like I said. JKS: You’re welcome. SB: Yeah. End of Jean Ko Stewart Interview, Part 3 of 3 35 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Stewart, Jean Ko Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jean Ko Stewart, 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-06-19 Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Ko Stewart for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Stewart, Jean Ko; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. 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But for some of the women’s newspapers I was able to find out about the existence of DOB. And so it was actually July 3, 1979 that I first climbed the stairs in the Old Cambridge Baptist Church to go to one of the discussion groups. And as it turned out, it was one of the mixed-age ones. So DOB had a couple of different types of discussion groups like the mixed ones that anyone of any age could go to, as well as a group for older women. A very diverse population ranging in age from probably in their early twenties all the way into well what seemed to be really older women, to me, in their fifties at the time. (laughter) So in fact, Lois was [01:00] the one leading the rap, because it was before the July 4th holiday. And so I went into it and was really pleased because people had sort of said to me, “Oh, you know, it’d be kind of -- it’ll be interesting but you know it’s actually a bunch of really older women. You may not want to be there.” This was from the couple of people that I knew who might have known anything about DOB. But instead I did find a great diversity and I said, “Well you know, what would be the problem with actually spending an evening with older women?” This sounded like a pretty good evening to me. And in fact it was because I had a great time. I was so new to coming into the community there and meeting in Cambridge. A lot of the women went off to go dancing afterwards because the next day was July 4th and so they were ready to party and off to the bars in Boston. And I went to [02:00] have coffee, which is the other thing that people did after the discussion groups, with the group of mostly older women. And I was really totally thrilled with the whole experience. And then I was in and I came regularly. LOIS JOHNSON: MANY times a month. 2 �RS: I lead groups many times a month. I was in my late twenties at the time so I couldn’t get into the over-35 group. Those were the ones I missed. I didn’t infiltrate the over 35 group until I was over 30. (laughter) And then I said, “Well close enough.” Because, as much as people were saying, “Oh it’s full of older women,” I said, “Well that’s really of interest to me to hear about their experience.” And so there were all these groups, and then I ended up joining in with some of the leaders, and I’d come to the business meetings [03:00] too. I really started to like that a lot and actually participate in the management and became a rap leader. And then I don’t remember how long it took, but it didn’t take a really long time and I started to get involved in a lot of the other activities, in fact, creating some of the other activities. Like that Provincetown Rendezvous weekend was something that I put in place. And it worked out really well because I would take -- make a list of places where people could stay, recommended guest houses, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 women would turn up, and we would meet. It was kind of like a mobile thing, various groups would meet and have breakfast. And then sometimes people would be interested in certain entertainment at night so another section of the group would go off to that entertainment. So it really it worked out -- it was [04:00] a little loose but it worked out really well. So we had a lot of different activities that -- and Lois in her leadership would always be supportive. As soon as someone came up with an idea, she would say, “Oh that sounds good. Go and do it.” (laughter) SARAH BOYER: RS: Very smart Lois. Get somebody else. Well it’s like you think that you want to do that? You do that. And so we also had -- Mimi will probably talk about her outdoor group, which was really another fun thing. And an important other activity that we had, which was really immensely popular, was the Thanksgiving dinner, the Sunday before Thanksgiving. And we’d have upward to 150 women turning up. 3 �LJ: With children. RS: With children and it was like -- it was huge. A bunch of people would join in on the cooking, but we had Mary Cleary who was a cook in the convent, [05:00] and she was the major manager of it. SB: So she was the nun that -- RS: She was an ex nun. SB: An ex nun. RS: An ex nun, and she was a member and very active. And she managed the kitchen in the Old Cambridge Baptist Church. And we were able to have this huge dinner. I mean -- so some of the stuff was people cooked in their various homes. In fact, we had -- the pies were made in our kitchen. We had Kate, who was a professional baker, and so she made 25 pies in our kitchen. SB: Oh my gosh. RS: You know, nearly decimating the kitchen. (laughter) It’s like you have no idea what -- how long it took us to find all those apples that (laughter) ended up, and transported them in the car. Like 25 pies, it’s not easy to transport in a Toyota Tercel but we did. (laughter) And then we would have the entertainment. [06:00] So we’d have the dinner and it would be very festive and it really went quite well. And lots of turkey, as much as anyone could ever want to eat, and all the fixings. And then afterwards we had the entertainment. So we had a series of times when we would put together plays. The plays usually had a theme of this woman not being out to her family and bringing her very butch lover home to the family. LJ: Her lesbian aunt. 4 �RS: And then there’d be the lesbian aunt. And so we had quite a complex nuclear family. We did that for a few years in a row, and it was like a soap opera that happened once a year for like three years in a row. And then we also had this other thing with this musical group modeled after the -MIMI RHYS: The Dyketones. RS: -- the Dyketones, who performed ’50s rock and roll Provincetown, who said, “OK, we’ll be the Dobtones.” And so we dressed up and -SB: The what tones? RS: The Dyketones? [07:00] SB: No, the -- RS: Dobtones. D-O-B. SB: OK, right. RS: The Dobtones. And so we dressed up [in] butch/femme regalia, and we looked very elegant. And we put enough Dippity-Do in our hair to make us look like, oh, really butch. And then we mostly had the recordings going and we lip synced, but we did sing along with it. So we didn’t have to rely on being actually musically talented. And pretty much people loved it. I mean they screamed, they carried on, they were just hysterical. SB: Oh, that’s great. RS: We did that two years in a row because it was so popular. You know you’d be strutting your stuff and all of a sudden someone would pull you onto their lap and you know -- (laughter) and they’d throw the leather jackets out into the crowd and they’d go berserk. (laughter) Felt like we were really -SB: I love it. 5 �RS: -- like we were really rock stars, which we were not. (laughter) [08:00] You know we were just like -- we were totally a satire. SB: Oh that’s great. RS: Singing along to “Pretty Woman” and “It’s Raining Dykes.” It was remarkable, so yeah. And then of course we also made sure that we had a contingent, and we had our banner and went to Gay Pride numbers of years. There was a lot going on. And of course the rap groups were really the core of it. SB: Now you talk about being a rap leader, could you tell me a little bit -- tell us a little bit about how that happened for you. Did you take some training or did you just know pretty much how to do it? RS: Well essentially we follow the model of the other leaders. It was like a peer support group. So it wasn’t like we had real firm training. I mean we did take -- we did have the training within the group of -- [09:00] and it was a culture of the experience that people had. And fortunately, we had numbers of therapists in the group, which if something came up we would go, “Oh my God, this came up in my rap.” And you’d call this therapist and say, “What do you think we should do about this?” If I had something come up, Lois would be the first person I would call, and then there’d be some therapist -- like if someone really odd walked in because it was open. It wasn’t like we were like a closed membership. So sometimes yeah, sometimes some strange people would walk in. But we seemed to manage pretty decently. SB: Yeah, now how did you manage it? I mean how did you manage a group? RS: Oh, so a lot of times it would be we’d have these open raps where people would bring in particular [10:00] issues that they would have. And so you would just facilitate based on what someone would bring in. They’d say, “Oh my God, I have to go home and see my mother, and I 6 �just… I’m not sure I’m going to handle it.” [or], “This is going on at work.” Numbers of different things that would come up, issues of coming out, who to come out to, when to come out, how to come out, what to do about someone’s reaction when you come out, and it ended up going badly. So the whole group -- if there was something really pressing immediately, that would be the discussion topic. But sometimes, like for a while I was doing topic raps. So I would put it out in advance, and so people who were interested would come. So one of my favorites was, “How to ask for a date.” (laughter) So, I have [11:00] this capacity crowd. It’s like they’re sitting on the floor, they’re practically -MR: Hanging out the door. RS: -- hanging out the door, up the walls. And they’re sitting there looking with expectation on their little faces (laughter) of like, “Where’s the lecture?” LJ: Do tell now. RS: Yeah, “We got to hear about this. How to ask for a date.” Because none of them knew. I’m just going, “Oh well I don’t really know that much about it either.” (laughter) You know it’s like there is no expertise in this field. It’s like how do you tell a bunch of women who have been trained in their lives to passively wait to be asked out? And how do you tell if it’s a date? If someone asks you to go somewhere, how do you know it’s a date? LJ: It’s always a date. (laughter) RS: Well yeah, there’s that approach that it’s always a date. Or it’s never, its either -- MR: Or if you end up in bed, then that’s a date. (laughs) RS: It ranges from always a date to never a date. (laughter) LJ: Well it always ranges from -- it’s always a date [12:00] to two weeks later moving in. RS: It’s marriage, yeah it’s marriage. 7 �SB: The U-Haul. RS: Yeah, it’s like yes, ‘I’m bringing the cat, and I’m moving in.’ (laughter) LJ: ‘Is the bird -- will the bird be all right?’ RS: Yeah really, so there is that. So yes, it was a lot of fun. So we had some really good discussions. It was a great way to meet people, and not only as friends, but also if you were looking for a partner. Much better than the bars because a lot of times these discussions would be on things that were of really core importance, and so you basically had an idea where a person was coming from. You had very much more -SB: Something to go on. RS: -- of an idea than the small talk of trying to talk above the din and nonsense in the bars that was going on. That didn’t mean we didn’t go out dancing afterwards, after a rap when it wasn’t… (inaudible) And I did that plenty of times too [13:00] afterwards. So you had the choice, depending on your mood. You could go out for the coffee afterwards or the dancing afterwards. And a lot of us swung either way depending on how you were feeling. And either way it was delightful, and you had time to really connect with the people that you were having discussion with. It was quite good. It was like a really unique kind of setting in order to have this kind of interaction that was not available in many places. And we had women coming in from far away. MR: New Hampshire. RS: I mean, New Hampshire, right? MR: Yep. LJ: Oh yeah, some from New Hampshire. 8 �RS: We had some coming from New Hampshire. They were coming from way, way away. And it wasn’t exactly logistically easy because you know Harvard Square has never been the place -- you know, a parker’s dream, (laughter) finding a place to put your car or whatever. MR: More like a nightmare. RS: Yeah so it was a difficult situation and women really [14:00] -- we’d have what? How many -LJ: Probably had 50. RS: Fifty women in one of those little rooms. LJ: Yeah 25 to 50. RS: Twenty-five to 50. SB: Wait a minute, in several raps? LJ: Oh no in one rap. RS: No in a single rap. SB: In a single rap? RS: In a single rap, I’d -- at its peak. I mean I don’t even know. It must have been close to 50 that group that I ran that was how to ask for a date. I mean it had to be because they were practically -- I mean, if they weren’t going to have a group marriage afterwards, (laughter) they were certainly going to ask each other for dates because they were sitting on top of each other. LJ: I know. (laughter) The need was so great. RS: Oh yeah, I mean -- So a lot of the topics, depending on what the topic was. So I did a series of topic raps, and depending on what they were, you could have a really big crowd or sometimes it was not so much. It would -- you’d never know who was going to walk in, or how many of them were going to walk in. But it was always pretty well attended. Once you -- as 9 �long as you had [15:00] a critical mass of six to eight people, you could always get a good discussion going. And above that, it took a little bit of skill with facilitating to make sure that it didn’t get out of hand. Every once in a while the things that we’d have to ask for guidance with handling would be ones who would come in and dominate, and that’s where sometimes the therapist people would be really helpful because it’d be like you’d get someone who would turn up periodically who would be intense and very -- and try to take over, so that people had a hard time speaking as well. And so we had to develop our techniques of being able to facilitate effectively and get the floor away from someone who decided that they were going to hold forth and do the lecture type thing. LJ: You had to be strong, [16:00] really strong, and you had to be able to say, “That’s wonderful x, whoever you are, what you have said, but now it is a time for blank, blank, and blank.” RS: Yeah, “How about you over there. I see you looking like really sitting on the edge of your seat. I want to hear what you have to say.” SB: Yeah I mean I was curious about that. I’m always curious about that. You must’ve certainly had women who came in who were scared to death. RS: Oh yeah, you had to pull -- SB: And they were sitting there and what could you do to make it -- RS: To draw -- SB: -- easier for them. RS: To draw them out. SB: To draw them out. 10 �RS: Yeah, so you kind of wanted -- one of the things was to make sure at a certain point, you know, like there would be natural gaps in the discussion. And you’d say, “OK, I’d really love to hear from some of the rest of you who haven’t spoken this evening.” And it’s like -- [17:00] and you know, just make some eye contact and see if they were ready to speak. And sometimes they wouldn’t be ready to speak. It would take a long time. It would take more than once. And we always told people to come back a few times because every rap is different because it’s a different population. You can never know what the dynamic’s going to be. It could end up -this is all coming back to me. It’s like as if it were yesterday. It’s amazing. And you would say, “Really, come back a few times. There are different rap leaders and different people come in all the time, and it’s always a different experience. So if you didn’t like it -- if you loved it this time, great. You’ll probably love it again too. If you didn’t like it this time, come again. There’s someone else will be in leadership. There’ll be a different mixture of people, different topics will come up. Try it at least three or four times and then [18:00] see if this is -- this works for you.” So even as -- so people -- and so you start to keep an eye out for some of the people who maybe weren’t so easy to speak up because you’d end up, the next time you led -- because I think I led like twice a month. So there’d sometimes be a little bit of a following. RS: So regulars who would come. And I would go to other people’s raps too, and that would feed me and give me ideas too. So Lois was leading, and like I said I also infiltrated the over-35 group afterwards and got the benefit of that wisdom over there. And Barbara Webber was leading, and Mimi, you did some leadership over there too. MR: Yeah, I did. RS: So that we had really a big -- we had a good contingent of rap leaders. 11 �LJ: At one point, [19:00] I think we had 20 raps in a month. RS: Yeah, it was amazing. SB: Wow that’s a lot. RS: And it wasn’t like any of them were scantily populated. I mean sometimes you would get, depending on what was going on, you might have a six to eight minimum but usually it was much more. It was really remarkable. I have no idea how many hundreds of women came. SB: Wow that’s amazing. RS: You know, it was amazing. It was an amazing thing. But I don’t want to monopolize because I want Mimi to be able to speak. SB: But there’s, well -- RS: But it was just something else. SB: Yeah, I just wanted to sort of transition by saying you did say that you were not a couple before you came into DOB. So can you talk about that? RS: We met there. MR: We met there. SB: And how -- do you want to talk about that? How it went? How it started? MR: Well I was -- well, go ahead. SB: Go ahead. RS: Yeah, because you’re -- I was [20:00] already there and you came in. MR: Yeah. RS: Right? So I was there -- MR: I came in about six months after you did. 12 �RS: Was it as soon as that? Because it was like by the time you came in, I met you in the early ’80s. MR: I was 29 when I came. RS: Yeah, but in the early ’80s though. I mean -- MR: OK. RS: So I was there in ’79, and it wasn’t until like ’82 or something that you were there I think. MR: Or ’81. RS: Yeah, because let’s see. When did we start going out? It was ’83? MR: Three, our first date. RS: So you must’ve been there for like maybe a year -- MR: A year. RS: -- before, so about 1982. MR: Well the thing was, she was dating somebody, and she would talk about it, so it’s like nobody was doing anything because I told everybody that she moved up from a -- she was dating a woman who was an anesthesiologist. But she would go back to California periodically. RS: She moved back. [21:00] I helped her move back to California. So she finished her medical training in Boston. But for a while, we were kind of doing this long distance thing, and she would fly back. She could do those things. But I was basically tapering off. MR: So, it was such a lesbian thing. It was like there were about four people who were interested in Renee. RS: Who knew? (laughter) MR: And I heard about it. 13 �RS: Who knew? They didn’t come to the rap about learning how to ask for a date that’s for sure. (laughter) MR: So I was the first one; you asked me out -- RS: Yeah. MR: -- first, but we -- RS: I think. MR: Oh, you interviewed me to be one of your roommates; that was it. RS: Yeah, because in my house full of women where we had a three bedroom -- MR: Mama Shapiro’s house for wayward lesbians. [22:00] (laughter) RS: Yeah, well I was the house mother. MR: That’s what we named it. There were lesbians everywhere. RS: I was the one holding down the fort. And at one point we had someone -- MR: (inaudible) RS: -- with agoraphobia living in the living room, so it was like a crazy place. MR: It was. RS: It was a crazy place. SB: Was this in Somerville? RS: Somerville, yeah. MR: Yeah. LJ: Beacon Street. MR: Beacon Street. RS: Beacon Street in Somerville. Yeah it was a really, really outrageous home. (laughter) But yeah, so one of the women left, and so I ended up having to find a new roommate. I was 14 �doing interviews, so where was I going to ask people to come and interview, you know, that I need a roommate? In DOB. Yeah, so people turned up. SB: So Mimi, why don’t you continue. MR: So Renee said, “Well,” and I decided that I wasn’t really ready to move in. It was a really crazy and cramped place, and I wasn’t really sure. I was living in a rooming house at the time. And I had my own room where I could be alone if I wanted to. And I was dealing with all the coming out stuff. But Renee saved my [23:00] interview. She wrote down stuff, and she saved my interview because she thought I was kind of interesting. And then it was not long after that that you asked me out. Because I didn’t have the guts to ask her out because I thought she was too smart, and she was dating a doctor, and I said, ‘She’ll never go after me.’ I was just a lowly lab tech. I worked as a med tech and -SB: How did you ask for a date? How did you ask her for a date? RS: I said -- MR: “Let’s go dancing.” RS: “Let’s go dancing.” (laughter) That was the central -- it was like this was one of the things that we talked about in our rap about asking for a date. You say, “OK, would you like to go out dancing on this particular -- on some evening?” And so we did. We went off, we met, and went to -MR: We danced. Somewhere Else. RS: -- to Somewhere Else and danced. LC: Somewhere Else. RS: Yeah, and you can eas-- when you’re dancing, you can easily assess levels of interest. Let’s not get too far into that, but levels of interest. (laughter) 15 �LJ: Levels of interest. [24:00] MR: So she took me to the pancake house -- LJ: The House of Pancakes. MR: At 2:00 in the morning. RS: At 2:00 in the morning. MR: Or after the bar closed. RS: Yeah, when you’re in your thirties you can do those things. I would never do that now. Oh my God, it would -SB: What was that, you mean the IHOP? RS: IHOP, yeah. MR: The IHOP, yes, because it was open. RS: That’s where a lot of us went to eat after going dancing, even if it were just after a rap. Anyway, so I did that. MR: So anyway, she was deciding whether to ask me home or not, and she told me I was the first one she ever asked home after a first date. And it went the way first dates when you take somebody home go. And then it just -RS: We kind of like -- MR: Yeah, we -- RS: -- slowly developed. MR: We really -- when I first [25:00] started dating, it took about seven months before we moved in, which probably is some kind of record among lesbians. (laughter) But I wanted to make sure that I was with a good person and -RS: But we left behind that three-bedroom house. We didn’t -- were not going to move there. 16 �MR: I said, “I’m not moving into that house.” RS: And I was kind of done with it anyway. It was the whole scene of all the women all over. In any space that you could put a woman, there was a woman. (laughter) MR: So we moved into Watertown and rented a place together and settled down to life. And in the meantime, we were still both very involved in DOB. I became a rap leader. I think I led once a month at least but I also filled in. And -RS: The outdoor. . . MR: And I started the Wild Women, which was the outdoor women’s group which was basically go outside, walk around a little while, do something, sit down and eat and yak. (laughter) And it was -- [26:00] RS: We were hardly wild. MR: But one trip we had this really amazing experience. There was this woman who had taken her Harley from -- who worked in Alaska on feeding -- as a cook for feeding people that were making the pipelines. And we announced the thing in the paper. So we’d say, “Wild Women going out for whatever.” So there was this wild dyke who had gone by on her motorcycle (phone starts ringing) and was a real Harley type. [27:00] So she had driven from Alaska on her Harley, and she was broke. And she took us on a tour. I think we were in like -RS: Newburyport or something like that. MR: Yeah, Newburyport. So she took us on a tour of all the bars and, of course, we paid for her. I don’t know how she managed to -RS: She was really expecting wild women, you know, but we were not, alas. (laughs) 17 �MR: So she was a true wild woman. But the thing I really liked about Wild Women was it was a safe place to be outdoors with women. And a number of people met on the hikes and things like that. RS: Yeah, Pat and Cora. MR: Pat and Cora did. RS: Pat and Cora. I mean and -- MR: Definitely. RS: -- They were together for a long time, and we had a lot of good outdoor gatherings with both of them. So we continued a lot of activity with them. SB: So it -- MR: So we did canoeing and hiking and -- SB: Yeah, you really did things. MR: Oh, we really did do things. I mean we made a joke about it being an outdoor eating club, but [28:00] it was -- I really thought it was great because a lot of women could just be outside doing things with other women. And there was no pressure, and you got to know people… who they really were. People had the attitude that we were in this together, and we were going to have -- we just had fun, and it was mutually supportive. The raps were wonderful, but they were very, very serious and very focused. And just people could be themselves, relaxed, which was -- I’ll never forget the time at one of our meetings that Lois asked how many women met their partners here, and there were a lot of us there. Like 30 or 40 of us and I would think that about 95% of the people put their hands up. So the really cool thing about -- that I really loved about DOB was that it was not bar culture. It was like you talked about things that mattered. You also shared each other’s [29:00] lives. You also shared fun things. I mean it 18 �really addressed gay women, not just as gays separately, but as meeting many different levels of needs. And of course when we needed help from each other, we just put the word out, and it was really a community. And it was a healthy community. We did have our problem people. I’ll never forget one time when it was -- Barbara and I were doing a rap, and one woman who was a guard at a prison had been dating somebody who was at the rap, and they broke up. And the guard showed up with her gun because she had come from work. So that was kind of -RS: It was a little tense. MR: -- little tense. RS: Just a little. SB: How did you deal with that? MR: Well Barbara and I -- Barbara, this is Barbara Webber, who had a lot of experience handling -- she wasn’t a therapist, but she was a college administrator [30:00] and handled a lot of stuff. She went and talked to the woman who had the gun, and I spoke to the other woman that she had been dating. And we kind of diffused the whole thing. Finally Barbara Webber managed to get the woman who was the guard to leave because I had to calm down the woman that she had broken up with. And the guard was creepy. She was definitely into the power trip and all that stuff. And we just diffused the situation where we had to get everybody calmed down. It was -- I was really grateful that she [Barbara Webber] was there. And with most raps, we had enough rap leaders that there was very often more than one rap leader. So if something weird happened we were able to handle it. I was very proud of the fact that we had a trans woman come into -RS: Yeah, that was -- 19 �MR: [31:00] -- A trans woman that was welcome at DOB, and DOB tried to be open to anybody who -- any woman who was questioning, and anyone who identified as a woman. And this was back in the ’80s, maybe it was back earlier. RS: Yeah, I mean I remember her from -- MR: But this was in the early ’80s, so that was really unusual. RS: Martha, I remember her from the late ’70s, yeah. MR: Martha, yeah. LJ: We even had a meeting. We had a business meeting on the issue, and we voted for it. MR: Yes, we did. RS: Which was remarkable considering it was the late ’70s, which you know -- SB: That is remarkable. RS: I mean it was thought of as being very rare and very unusual to be trans back then. It was like newly coming forth. LC: I mean I know the Women’s Center didn’t -- MR: No, they didn’t. LC: -- allow trans. MR: Well, we decided that it was the right thing to do. And we did do another thing that some of our members felt were very controversial, [32:00] but I was proud of us. There was a womanto-woman S&M group, and they wanted to present something to DOB and just educate us. And some of us felt very strongly that it shouldn’t happen, and some of us felt like we should be open to them. And I was very, very proud of us that we were willing to have them talk to us, and not everybody was comfortable. I thought they did a great job. They came in, they were very matter of fact about things, very honest and open. And whether you agreed with them or not, which I 20 �still don’t completely understand that mindset, but I got a better -- I felt my mind opened up and DOB was there for it. And I was so proud that we did, and we showed respect and tolerance to them. And whether we agreed with them or not, we still gave them their chance to talk to us. And I’ve always been really -- I think DOB, one of the things we did [33:00] struggle with, [was] trying to make it more available to women of color, and we tried numbers of things. And there we-- I think there were only a couple, at most, that came through. LJ: Just -- we tried very hard. MR: Yeah, we did. LJ: And then we didn’t really know the avenues to do it. Women came, but we were -- I think the one thing that I always feel that we were never able to implement was having these women come, but they seemed to feel uncomfortable because there were so few of them. I think that that was the problem. MR: And black women were -- had their own communities and then they had an additional -- I mean, we had trouble -- they had trouble in their communities for the same reason that we had trouble in the white community for being gay and people not accepting them. [34:00] I’m always sorry that it didn’t turn out differently, but we did -- we had meetings on it. We tried to have it happen and -RS: Well, given the time before internet and everything, it’s very hard to get that critical mass of the number of women and -- so you get one -- you know, one would venture in because of our openness to that. And she’d be the only one there, and it would be like she would never -- that one or two would never want to come back because it was just not a comfortable thing. So getting -- when you’re just relying on ads in the newspaper, like Sojourner, at the time, and Equal Times, you would -- it would be very hard to build that kind of thing. I mean, I still think 21 �there are some problems with it, but the internet would make a big difference if this were still going on. And I don’t really even know what kind of different [35:00] groups are now existent. I mean, our older lesbian groups tend to be a bit more diverse. At least there’s a -MR: Age ranges and stuff. RS: Yeah, the age. Well, the age ranges, and I know there are some women of color who come into them. So it’s not quite the same time. And I think the internet also does make a difference. MR: One thing that happened that I think I told you. I’m pretty sure I told you, Lois. That happened one night, on a Saturday night, late, I got a call. And what we did was we designated different people. We had an answering machine, but then if somebody needed, really needed us, people would take turns being the person to be called. And I got a call one night from a young man whose mother, who was in her early thirties, had [36:00] decided to come out. [She] had been divorced and had her son with her. And she was behaving pretty outrageously and inconsiderately of her son, and he was very confused. I remember getting the call. I mean, his mother was having sex with her girlfriend in front of him, and it was just really stuff that you shouldn’t do, no matter what. And this kid was probably [a] very young teenager. And he was -and he called Daughters of Bilitis because he wanted to talk to another lesbian and ask what his mother was doing-- like he was very upset. And he didn’t have any place else that he really felt like he could call. So he called me, and I thought his mother was acting like a jerk, but I wasn’t going to say that. But I remember really struggling to -- and this was -- [37:00] this was hard. I wanted to validate him because he was upset because his mother was not being considerate of him and caring about him. But I didn’t want to put her down as a lesbian. I was very aware that. ‘OK, how do I balance these two things off.’ And I finally managed. I said, “Well, I know your 22 �mother has been feeling very deprived for a very long time, and she’s having a hard time with this change in her sexuality.” And I said it every graceful way I could because I totally agreed with him that his mother was being irresponsible, but I really felt that I had to represent the lesbian community in a way that was not judgmental of it, but in a way that would support him. And I finally managed to do that. But it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. Because I wanted to say, “Yeah she’s a jerk.” (laughter) [38:00] She was acting like a jerk. I wouldn’t do that. SB: It’s pretty amazing that you were able to do that. RS: But that -- but to know that’s an early stage. SB: And what was his response? I mean that’s a -- MR: He actually thanked me and he said -- I said, “Your mother’s struggling with a lot of stuff now,” and I’m going--” I would hope that you would be able to be patient with her because she has a lot of issues that she’s working out. I’m sorry that you were hurt by what she did.” And I tried to be diplomatic and honest and -LJ: You did a great job. MR: But the thing is -- the fact is that this kid looked to us as somebody who might understand the whole situation. And I’ve never heard of anybody else. I don’t know, Lois, if you’ve heard of anybody else having that kind of call. But I got it late on a Saturday night. LJ: No, no. MR: And I never had it again. But it was just very -- I mean I’m glad I was able to be there with that kid. But never-- [39:00] but it’s the fact that he called us, and he was the last person I would ever expect to call. So we were able to be there for him in a way that I’m sure he never 23 �expected, and we were able to expand. I tried to put it out as this is kind of like the way DOB likes to handle things to make everybody be equal. But it was wild. SB: Wow. I mean -- LJ: That’s an amazing experience. SB: It is an amazing experience. It sounds like there were a number of them, really quite a -- just amazing. RS: There were a lot of women like that woman who actually came into raps. I mean, they would be like -MR: Well, that’s the thing. RS: -- just newly out and busting -- MR: Like oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. RS: Oh boy, oh boy. And they would be into the -- doing high drama and it would be like -- here you’d have a 30-year-old woman or woman in [their] 40s, 50s just coming out, [40:00] and just like being really kind of out of control and being very adolescent. And so it’s very hard for someone who has a child -SB: Well you could see how that would happen. END OF Shapiro/Rhys Interview, Part 1 of 3 BEGINNING OF Shapiro/Rhys Interview, Part 2 of 3 SB: Go ahead, Laura. LAURA CATANZARO: OK. This is Laura, and here’s my question. During the late ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, that era was known as a feminist time and coming out as a lesbian during that era [in] particular. I know for myself to identify as a lesbian feminist, I felt like I was part of 24 �something bigger than just myself. And the newspapers you’ve mentioned, Equal Times, Sojourner, that was the media. That was the way that little -MR: The Gay Community News also was very feminist. LC: -- got your number to call. The Gay Community News exactly. The novels, the Persephone Press. MR: The very many bad novels. (laughter) LC: The Wanderground. RS: Some of them were good. MR: Some were good. LC: And even [01:00] where they maybe weren’t the best literature, there was these enlightenment lightbulbs going off in women’s heads. Left on Pearl. Would each of you speak a little bit to the politics of being a lesbian during the DOB era? RS: Oh, I love -- SB: Could I just say, before you speak to it, Lois has also talked to us about how DOB did not see themselves as a political organization. She mentioned Elaine Noble’s campaign and everything, but I just wanted to throw that in. But if you could speak to -RS: Yeah, so -- MR: Can I start? RS: Oh, do you want to start? OK. MR: Yeah. I think what DOB -- if someone was to describe to me during that time, [02:00] brushing your teeth was a political act. I mean it was like everything had a certain type of meaning. And we were very conscious of trying to further women’s interest, lesbian interest, but I think we had an idea that we were in it for all women, whether they agreed with our life choices 25 �or not, or our partner choices. We were very aware that we were the leading ed-- we thought we were [the] leading edge. And I think in many ways we were. It was a very heady time, and everybody had their work that they did. I think, and Lois in her wisdom kept the politics out of it, because politics had torn apart the other DOB chapters across the United States. RS: Oh sure. So I think Lois in her wisdom, having looked at the other DOB chapters and seeing how they were torn apart by politics. I mean a lot of people were involved in political things. I mean that was very common. And of course back then, the Gay Pride parade was a deeply political act. That was the one political act that we actively pursued, and we did together as a group. And we had a number of teachers, so they would have to wear bags over their heads. And they would carry a sign saying why they were wearing the bag over their heads. You know, “I’m a public servant, and I can’t be seen because it will jeopardize my job.” [04:00] Part of the politics we talked about was women not being able to -- hiding out. I remember one woman had divorced her husband and had her son with her, and if women got found out, they were very afraid of losing their children. Because back then the way the courts were acting, if you were gay, it didn’t matter if your partner was an axe murderer but if they were straight, they got the kid. That was how it was. We talked about political ramifications that happened to us that directly affected our lives. Women brought that to DOB, and we talked about that. But in terms of, “I’m supporting this candidate and we need to do that,” we were very careful. And Lois was a big leader in this about making it a place where every woman, -- the first and foremost thing was to make it a safe place for gay women [05:00] to be. And people were involved in all kinds of politics. I would say more of us were more left-leaning than right-leaning, certainly. But there were some more conservative women in the group. And there was space for everybody. So while we did talk about how political things affected our lives, like about not going home and 26 �not feeling safe and courts and things like that, because they impacted our lives, we were very careful about not aiming at any one particular political stand, because we thought our first job was to be there for the women, whatever woman, or trans woman or whatever. And I think that’s why we lasted as long as we did. MR: Yeah, so I agree totally with that. We were not overtly political but like they said, the personal[was] political, and being [06:00] lesbian in the world that was, is, and may continue to be, political. I mean there’s no question about it. Radically. RS: And it was much more of a counterculture type of identity before. And I really came into it as being a lesbian feminist, totally. I mean it was like -- so being feminist was really integrated with coming out in a very major way. And so it was important -- New Words was an important place. There was also a women’s restaurant right next to it? LJ: Bread and Roses. LC: Bread and Roses. MR: Bread and Roses, [then] Amaranth. LC: In Amaranth. RS: Yeah, so I mean I just -- I loved those places. There was one out in the Amherst area, too. And it was like -- it felt like there was a place that you could be and [07:00] really be feminist together, be lesbian together. And that was really important and so all of this sort of melded in together. And so feminism was really a key thing. MR: Oh, very strong. RS: It was a key thing. And the realization that that was like -- I mean, I don’t think that like some did that. Like feminism is a theory, and lesbianism is the practice. It’s not for everybody, 27 �but by the same token, it felt like a very well integrated way of life to me. So both of them -both went together. MR: Yeah, so -- RS: And I was very happy with that. It felt good. MR: Yeah, and I agree that many -- I would say that many of the women identified themselves as lesbian feminists. Many, many of them. But the question always came down to, “Well, what are we here for?” [08:00] And we really saw ourselves as a strong alternative to the bars. We just thought bars were terrible places for people to be in because it was -- around then there was a lot of alcohol, and a lot of emotional abuse going on. So people were drinking heavily because their lives were messed up, and they had a lot of stress and strain. So we were really committed to providing -- the most important thing we did was providing a safe place for women to be and for them to be supported. We had a library, all those -RS: Oh yes, of some lesbian books. MR: -- lesbian books you couldn’t get. And I think it cost 15 bucks a year to belong [to DOB]. The thing that was interesting was the building we were in, I don’t know if you told them about the Old Cambridge Baptist Church, when the FBI was breaking in and going through our stuff. You heard about -- did you guys hear about that? RS: [09:00] -- It was a time there was -- we were there, but we were also, there was a certain amount of real privacy. And some people we never -- we didn’t ever really learn their last names. There were still -MR: Or their real first names. 28 �RS: -- Some people would use pseudonyms. So even back then, and it took a while. So even in -- and I want to make the point, too, in addition to meeting like a partner, which a lot of people did, we also had a network of friends that has lasted -LJ: For 40 years. MR: For about 40 years. RS: For 40 years and more now, so numbers of people. Yes, we’ve lost touch with some of them, but there are others that have just become core friends of -MR: And family. RS: -- For [an] entire lifetime. Family for an entire lifetime, for as long as -- by now, 40 years is more than half of most of our lives. Some of our lives anyway. It’s like it’s very [10:00] key and important. LJ: For a lot of women, DOB was their family. MR: Oh abso-- I was just going to say that. That absolutely. LJ: Because they had so much hassle with their own family. RS: I mean the Thanksgiving dinner was about a lot more than turkey. It was really -- MR: And a good time. RS: -- It was really very -- LJ: It was about family. RS: It was about being family together. They might be going home on the following Thursday to their family of birth -LJ: Biological family. RS: -- their biological family. But they had their real family dinner on that Sunday before. And many, I mean most of us -- 29 �MR: And the ones who could go home, because some couldn’t, and they told us. RS: And most of us looked forward to that in such a major way, it was like a peak experience. We had to schlep the tables and the chairs. It was like a total -LJ: Wash the dishes. RS: -- homemade thing. Oh my God. (laughter) MR: Dishes for 150 people. RS: It was so much work. It was unbelievable. But we loved it, and we loved [11:00] doing it, and we loved being in it. It was like -MR: And we loved providing those women with something they really desperately needed, and they weren’t necessarily going to get any place else. RS: That’s why when we did the entertainment, which was kind of like it was -- LC: Fun. RS: It was fun stuff. They went berserk. MR: Because we took the stressful parts of their lives and made [them] laugh. [It] empowered them to laugh at it. And that was really a cool thing to do. I mean it was fun but it was also very empowering. Because we could name -- they could name their issue and laugh at it and just not be hurt. It was -SB: What a relief. MR: What a relief, you know? And it also showed up the absurdities of straight culture. And yeah, we were poking fun at it, but it was true. RS: Oh yeah, I guess I don’t -- I think we talked about that while we were doing – the skits. So the skits were very funny because it was the basic theme of a woman taking home her very butch partner and essentially coming out to the family. And we had this whole family 30 �constellation around her. And so we had Bernice with her -- what did she have, a cardboard husband? LJ: I think so. MR: With a balloon head. RS: With a balloon head. (laughter) And let’s see we had -- MR: The lesbian aunt. The one who just came out to everybody. RS: Yeah, and she comes out. And then there was -- then it was the father who was in the Air Force -- the father who was Dick (laughter) and the wife saying, “Oh I just love my Dick.” (laughter) So there was a lot of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). So I mean, it was absurdity. MR: We pulled out all the stops. RS: It was so absurd and yet people were -- people just -- LJ: They were just having a wildly [13:00] good time. RS: -- have a wild good time. And they would love these things. LC: It was wonderful. LJ: It was especially nice one night when we had the flood under the door. RS: Oh yeah, I remember that one. That was fun to clean up that. LJ: We had to leave after a while but we wanted to hear the guitar music. And Barbara Webber said, “Lois, there’s something going on here.” I said, “What’s wrong?” We opened the door and the water went “pchoo” (laughter) down the stairs, no fish. (laughter) RS: Yeah I don’t know what was going on when that happened. But yeah, so we had lots of wild experiences. MR: Oh, remember when we went to Washington and the gay march? RS: Oh yeah that’s right. 31 �MR: That was amazing. It was -- SB: Oh wow. What year was that? MR: It was Bush. No, yeah it was Bush. RS: The first? Bush the first? I don’t remember. Oh my God. I’m drawing a blank. MR: What was the one when we went to the wh-- the great, the half a million strong gay march? RS: Oh my God yeah. LJ: I remember. RS: A bunch of us went. MR: A bunch of us went. RS: So there you go, political. LC: As DOB? [14:00] RS: Well, we were -- MR: We marched behind our banner. And I never -- it was so touching because people clapped. LJ: Yeah, they did. MR: Everywhere we went. RS: So I mean, so it’s wonderful. I mean Gay Pride is again going back to being -- MR: Political. LJ: Political group. RS: -- more political -- LJ: It has to be. 32 �RS: -- and more of a march again than a parade. And it’s great getting the support, and there’s huge support for that. But it wasn’t as much then. And to get that -SB: To get that must have been incredible. RS: -- was amazing. It was amazing. So a bunch of us, we just went down there and did that with the banner. MR: I’m trying to think. RS: I’m forgetting now what year that was. MR: The president left town, I remember that. He did. I remember that part. I’m trying to remember who it was. But anyway, it was the gay march in Washington about 20 years ago maybe. RS: Because -- wait a minute, because DOB we had -- LC: Like 15 or 20 years ago. LJ: I’m the oldest. RS: -- you know 20 to 25 years, [15:00] 25 years of DOB in ’69, right? LJ: Yeah, ’69. RS: So, I’m trying to think when that -- because was it right shortly after the twenty-fifth anniversary that we sort of -LJ: I think it was around that. RS: -- dispersed. SB: OK, so when did you start -- or were you -- did you stay with DOB right up until the very end? RS: Oh yeah. MR: Very close. 33 �RS: Yeah, absolutely. LJ: The two of them were mainstays in the organization. RS: Yeah, I was a vice pres-- MR: We did a lot. RS: I was a vice president at a certain point. MR: I ran the outdoor club. We were both rap leaders. We were in the business meeting. RS: Yeah, so right up until the end. MR: I mean we did lots and lots of stuff. RS: And it wasn’t an easy thing. It was like something that -- the times had changed and there was -- it wasn’t the same. There was I think because things had gotten in some ways better, [16:00] we ended up actually -MR: Well people didn’t come as far. RS: -- fewer people. MR: There were more and more gay organizations farther out that were organizing. Like there was West of Boston Lesbians. But the thing is, people were organizing and providing more groups for them. And instead of being the only place in town, they started -- which is good because they started making their own. OLE was around and West of Boston and there was all kinds of -LC: Tons of things in Northampton. MR: -- North of Boston Lesbians, so -- RS: Yeah, everywhere. MR: So it was good, and we were starting to become a little bit more mainstream. And it was -- I think DOB just had a natural dropping off because people were developing their own ways of 34 �being, and we were no longer so pushed out of mainstream culture. It was -- [17:00] we weren’t as accepted as now, but it was much closer to acceptance and tolerance. And people organizing and going off and doing their own thing and developing their own stuff for their own needs. So I think it was a healthy normal closing down of something that had started and led the way, and other people had taken those lessons in and taught them -- and learned them and then were expressing them in their other organizations -RS: Yeah, the influences -- MR: -- that were coming up. RS: The influences are out there. There’s no question that -- MR: We were like the first in the Boston area that I know of. RS: Oh yeah, and that -- it just spread. It’s not like it’s gone; it just exists in other places now. And I think there is something that calls itself DOB -LJ: There’s a young women’s group I guess at the Women’s Center. RS: Cambridge Center, the [18:00] Women’s Center. LJ: But I don’t know -- SB: They call themselves DOB? LJ: They do. I was on a panel at OLOC, which I think you came to. RS: Yeah, right, right. LJ: And there was a young woman there, either in that panel or -- LC: Oh I remember that, yes. LJ: -- another panel who identified as being with a DOB group. And I would’ve been quite happy to talk to her, but this young woman, who looked to be in her late twenties, I guess, had no desire to talk to anybody from the past. But if they want to do something, they certainly can. 35 �RS: Yeah, we’ve thought about going in and checking it out just to see -- MR: We just haven’t gotten around to it. RS: --what’s there, but we haven’t gotten around to it. SB: Now, where are they -- RS: They’re at the Women’s Center. SB: Oh, they’re at the Women’s Center? MR: They’re meeting in Cambridge at the Women’s Center now -- LC: At the Women’s Center, OK. MR: -- once a month. RS: If they’re still -- MR: If they still are. RS: If they’re still even there, who knows. I mean, we really don’t know. LJ: We just have no idea. RS: But we heard about it then, and we picked up the information and we just said, “Oh well that’ll be [19:00] interesting to go see.” But I guess it wasn’t so compellingly interesting that we actually did it. So it might be. LC: Well, this is why we need to have these interviews. When they’re on the web and when they’re really needed, they will be there. It’s 1979. October 14, 1979, the first Gay Pride march on Washington. There was another one much later in 1993. RS: Yes, that’s probably it. MR: That must be it. So it was ’93, but I remember there being half a million people, and it being very dignified. I mean [20:00] there were drag queens, but they were quiet. They were there just to be seen and to stand up for who they were. I remember it being a very friendly 36 �crowd. It wasn’t a party crowd. It was kind of solemn, but it was very considerate, and half a million people were -- I was surprised how quiet they were. It was -MR: -- an absolute amazing -- go ahead -- experience. SB: No, I just I can understand your emotion. I mean -- because when I saw people clapping at this last one, it was like I started crying too. MR: Oh sure. SB: But just -- that’s just really amazing. Well I forgot what I was going to say. (laughter) Oh, well you can answer this if you want to, but if you don’t want to that’s fine too. Did you [21:00] come from families that were in any way understanding of who you were? MR: I think my family was very understanding. RS: Mine was OK. MR: No they -- RS: You know, reas-- yeah, there were other iss-- there were other things going on. My father was not really what you’d call at certain points compos mentis. MR: And your mother did not like the fact that you were gay, and that I was there. RS: Yeah, I mean she wasn’t that -- she wasn’t super supportive. My siblings are fine. MR: And my family I was lucky. They weren’t ideal in many respects, but they really took Renee to heart. SB: That’s wonderful. RS: So I had, for half of my life, I had a mother-in-law that was actually pretty -- MR: Oh she was very -- RS: -- really good. Especially the last -- I would have to say especially the last 20 years. [22:00] I mean there was a period of time that we weren’t seeing them for various other issues 37 �that were going on. But the last 20 years, I couldn’t have asked for a better mother-in-law. She was really -- she was great. MR: She was proud of the fact -- she would talk about us very openly. I’m also Wiccan, a witch, and she would say, “Oh my daughter, the witch.” And everybody would go, “Why are you saying that?” “Because she’s a witch. She’s really a witch.” (laughter) “And I love her and I’m proud of the fact she’s a witch.” So there was a little bit of education going on there. RS: Yeah, there was never a hesitation to introduce me as the daughter-in-law. Never a hesitation from her -LC: Wow. LJ: Wonderful. RS: -- whenever. So she was -- MR: And my sister said she’d wipe the floor if I ever -- with me if I ever broke up with Renee. So you could say you’ll never get a more positive (inaudible) (laughter) than that. RS: Marcie will fight on my behalf. (laughter) MR: So I would say she had a fairly positive experience in my family. LJ: That’s wonderful. MR: And my father loved you. [23:00] So it was good. SB: Now I understand the influence that DOB has had with all women that are in different organizations and -- was there a feeling though at the end of loss of DOB? RS: Oh, for sure. MR: Oh yeah. RS: I mean, it’s like -- MR: It’s the end of an era. 38 �SB: So it must’ve been kind of hard. RS: Yeah for some reason I think we -- it felt kind of sad that we kind of -- that we sort of ran out of steam in a certain way, that that feeling of -MR: Community. RS: -- of community. It wasn’t the same. We didn’t have the same kind of -- there wasn’t the energy to it any longer for whatever -LC: And the urgency. RS: And the urgency. And it was definitely a loss. I mean, certainly we kept our partners and all the friends we got [24:00] out of it, as many as we were keeping in touch with. But that broader feeling and feeling of having a mission there that was, unfortunately, gone. MR: But I think one of the things that unfortunately really fueled it was all the homophobia and everything and overt homophobia in society. And I’m glad -RS: That we didn’t have to take refuge. MR: -- that we didn’t have to take that on anymore. I mean there’s still problems God knows, but the fact is that we can get married and, you know -- when we started in DOB, I never expected to be able to get married in my entire life. I just figured that would never, ever happen. And thank God at least some of this stuff has happened. And I think that’s -- and if DOB petered out because we no longer felt that we had to be with each other in order to survive, is that the worst thing that could happen? That we were no longer threatened so much by outside? Is that what held us together? I don’t know. [25:00] But I think that was part of it because we were trying to find each other and find support. And we were able to be more -- become more mainstream. I miss DOB a lot. It was very much a part of my life. I’m glad that we live in the kind of world that we live in now, may it stay that way. I think I am so grateful that I can be 39 �married, that other people that -- I’m in other organizations where they’re young lesbian women, and I talk to them about what it was like. And they real-- their lives are so different, and I’m grateful. And I remember talking to some members of DOB who were 20 years older than me, besides -RS: Like this one over here. (laughs) MR: Well, Lois and Sheri. But I’m talking about Jean and Louise and -- RS: Oh, 30 years for them. MR: Thirty years for them. And I remember I asked them, “What was it like for you?” And Jean, [26:00] they had a photography shop in Boston, a photography studio. And Jean talks about -- Jean talked to me one time about walking along the Charles and wanting to throw herself in because she was just -- life was so tough. She felt life was so tough. And I didn’t have that experience. Life was certainly tough, and I was scared at times and everything. I didn’t ever want to end my life because I was gay. And that’s different than what I experienced. And people talking about what it was like during World War II. And some of Sheri’s stuff, talking about when she was in the -LJ: Service. MR: Yeah, in the service and what things were like. So that is beyond -- that’s a very different way than my experience in 20 or 30 years. It was a huge difference. And these next bunch of women coming along, we’re talking now -- I remember being in a training, [27:00] and a bunch of women were talking about people’s pronouns and the fact that people can be -RS: Oh, the whole gender fluid. LC: They, yeah. MR: They, and this is a whole new world. (laughter) 40 �RS: The gender fluidity. This is like really, yeah, this is -- MR: And I think we had something -- I think us gay people that went out there and did stuff and supported people, I think that’s part of the growth out of our work. And I’m grate-- I’m feeling, oh my God, I’m old, and I’m not as in touch with things as I should be, and so I’m working to educate myself. But I think we had a very positive thing that we gave, not to just other lesbian women or other gay men, but to society. And I’m proud of the work that we did. Very proud of that. SB: I love that ending. But if there’s anything else you want to say. Did you -- any other [28:00] experience you want to talk about? MR: How many -- wow let’s see. RS: We covered a lot of ground. MR: I’m trying to think if there’s anything else that -- are there any other things that you wanted to know about we didn’t answer or you would like a better answer? SB: No, not from what I have here and not from what I’ve asked, other questions. LJ: That seems quite comprehensive. LC: It really does. RS: Well we have these photos, and I can send more. I think you saw that one. That’s the Provincetown Rendezvous weekend that we got together. I don’t remember who these two women were, but these others -MR: It’s OK. RS: Anyway, so -- LC: Do you want to -- I’m just wondering -- MR: Those are yours. 41 �RS: [29:00] I printed those up today. MR: They’re copies. LC: Oh they’re copies. Oh, that’s great. RS: We didn’t talk about Halloween parties. Oh my God, the potlucks that Lois would have - - Lois and Sheri would have. MR: There’d be like 100 women in your house. RS: And those were so-- one of the other things in addition to the Thanksgiving dinner that twice a year we would have them. LJ: At least twice, sometimes -- RS: At least twice, if not three times. SB: The dances? LJ: Well no, we had dancing in the house too. But we’d have -- RS: Potluck. LJ: -- at least four times a year. LC: Potlucks. LJ: In the beginning we had five, six. RS: They were amazing. Because yes, we would all troop over and risk getting parking tickets in the South End, (laughter) and we would -- and sometimes we’d get them, sometimes not. We did all right. MR: That was the way to take the lid off. RS: Those were true peak experiences because we could just socialize on all [30:00] these different floors that they had there. LC: Up and down. 42 �RS: Up and down. And it was -- MR: It was safe and free. RS: It was a potluck, so there was always abundance. So we just -- LJ: And there was music, and there was singing. RS: And usually I can remember usually being one of the last people out the door. LJ: Oh yeah, you were always helping us. MR: First ones there and -- LJ: Last to get the dishes cleared away, of which there were quite a few. RS: Oh yeah, it was a lot to put those on. But yeah -- MR: Yeah, 100 women can make a mess, trust me. (laughter) RS: But the Halloween one was so cool and such fun with dressing -- with everyone dressed up in costume. F1: Did Laura C. go to any of those Halloween parties I wonder? LJ: I don’t think so, no. Well, one of the memories that I have of those is that it was always, not always, but every once in a while [31:00] there would be a woman who would come who didn’t want to leave. I never knew exactly what they had in mind, but they weren’t going to get it. And so I can remember Webber or you folks or whatever -RS: Yeah, we’d always manage. LJ: -- chaperoning us and saying, “It’s time for you to go home, Marie,” or whatever her name was. RS: Yeah Webber and I were usually among the last ones out, and we would manage -- MR: I would too. RS: -- to get that person -- 43 �LJ: And help us to get things together. And then we would go upstairs and just put the dishes to soak and say that’s for tomorrow. And I can remember one night, I was so tired. This must’ve been towards the end of it. Lying in my bed, she’s [Sheri] lying in her bed, and we’re talking about how wonderful it was and how many people there were and how many women. And all of a sudden Sheri would be asking me a question and I’d say, “Yes dear.” (clicking sound effect) LC: Out. LJ: I just would go right out I was so exhausted. We usually got up [32:00] at seven o’clock, cleaned the whole house. She’d go down and cook and then in addition to that let everybody in the front door because it was always locked. Not that it was that dangerous but -RS: Yeah but that was a big schlep every time. LJ: Going up and down those stairs. RS: So yeah, we were the last. We would always hang out. LJ: But it was a wonderful time. And we had wonderful people there. RS: Yeah, some of these things yeah -END OF Shapiro/Rhys Interview, Part 2 of 3 BEGINNING OF Shapiro/Rhys Interview, Part 3 of 3 MR: It was hard living that way, hating yourself. And DOB gave me identity and support and a really worthy cause to live for and to work with. That’s important. I need that in my life to really feel like I’m doing some good. And I know we did a lot of good. I know we did a lot of service not just in numbers, although that was good. But the number of women we helped come out, the number of women whose lives who we empowered and we helped them change their 44 �lives. We gave support. We advocated for equality. I mean it was a big, huge, gigantic part of my life. RS: I would agree with all of that. And then add on that certain of the leadership skills that I’ve taken to other groups, [01:00] just incredible. MR: Yeah, that is true. RS: I mean, facilitating, being part of the business meeting. So since then, this has had an impact on the Women’s Community Cancer Project, the B’nai Or Steering Committee, B’nai Or as a congregation. MR: Progressive Jewish congregation. RS: Other work that I’ve done with, now with the Jewish Alliance of Law and Social Action, we’re putting together an environmental group. So it’s like it really -MR: Activism, it really helped. And I agree with that. It really made a difference in activism. RS: All of the -- and when we were working with Helen Caldicott’s group. I mean all of this stuff. It’s like all of those skills ended up -- not all of them in the same organization, but facilitating, even just the schlepping. I mean putting together an event like -LC: Thanksgiving. RS: Like the Thanksgiving. MR: Women’s Thanksgiving. [02:00] RS: -- ended up then getting applied to our running a retreat for our congregation to just even setting up for services. Like being the schleppers that became -- you know, you put it in a congregational thing, you become the holy schleppers. (laughter) Just make -- it’s a vari-MR: Yeah, actually -- 45 �RS: So much of it’s a variation on a theme that you could take that leadership skill and just put it in -MR: Yeah, actually the skills -- RS: -- a lot of different contexts. MR: -- that it gave a lot of us. I didn’t think of it at the time but it’s like you absorb how -- a way to take a egalitarian organization and make it work, which is much harder than if you’ve got somebody at the top telling everybody what to do. And the way Lois led was like, “Oh what a great idea, why don’t you do that.” It made you responsible. It taught you how to do things, and if you needed to learn, Lois or somebody was there to tell you how to do it. [03:00] It was incredible learning too. RS: In fact, that technique I have brought into the Steering committee and B’nai Or, and it ends up working. People say, “Oh well, we should have this.” “Well, why don’t you lead it then if we should have it? Good idea.” MR: Actually, it was good life skills too because you learned how to work in a group. And especially if there isn’t this hierarchy, which I don’t like anyway. It’s not as easy to do that but you learn how to work with a group of people and make it work. And that’s like I would say everybody needs to learn how to do that, everybody. Because if you’re going to do activism, if you’re going to do whatever you really want to do to help change things and empower people to be who they are and to help them be the best they can be, it was really amazing training. RS: And you have to say in giving [04:00] support we were supported. That was essentially true. MR: I’ve read a thing that said the biggest lack that Americans have is community. SB: That’s really true. 46 �MR: They put money and time and effort into their children and their jobs and everything and then when they get -- when they retire they have nobody. And I can say that DOB taught us everything we needed to know to be part of a community and to really get to make it work. LC: And to create one. MR: And to create one and make it work. LC: Make something out of what wasn’t there before. LJ: That’s a wonderful statement. END OF Shapiro/Rhys Interview, Part 3 of 3 47 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Rhys, Mimi; Shapiro, Renee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Renee Shapiro and Mimi Rhys, 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-12 Description An account of the resource Interview with Renee Shapiro and Mimi Rhys for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Rhys, Mimi; Shapiro, Renee; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/8b64bacaed6337ccb6273c44812458ec.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=Y0zsYO2exXrV6r1maTOl3NoGAN7E1f0-ZywZQKXAcopyMHAKHf6bXixLpafyNrfptIu0Im0kQdKOmkyC-yh7ON4Z9HalUyVinMB09YIZLpSwlJtXJGkMhCKGOpl3XC77tQ07w2Zk7R5mc7-PKlrC%7Et7RkFuiXlC-mEHOPBngluKB5U4ENCZAtOLbO9ziWrkdZz1yR41wRAcvqcpIl4hUzdcXtRzco8ds0zVaPEHXvIw%7EO9Xd-5lmmXaPlt3DmEBpF3135TjDyCSR7l1NM7rNxE8XMWiLz28cWMl3Pxg6fiHH%7EXbcTcr5Yf7pt5aC9Ng%7EC%7E2xfA8u3I4DjutT6hhMrA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 618959462a1eb9ed80d7e0bfd72b704a https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/e27c9ef5ead4ccd9a58492c3baec88d3.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=fuEuQPPtNPvs7c%7EOM91UYQAJAp5qZBWBxZeLZZLKv0WvHMiSbj7SjQng1WPh9yrzJdJHBnoUmkTcDZdoctfXFtyEBEdO0jzBps3V6%7EtrY6OgHkSuIMNmc37pFydB1f1sYwK6V4omgH%7E4KIdo6UvyoMFU68YvIciS8TAugF4qSA9hZDTfYmFXgNRqElYuS5%7E99BG8Y8gQyLC9IfDPSI4NYVMvuLfxQCTadryMaT0SrybXgIaKh71xqUlJSW-x7w9jpBWZf0zzFHFJD06mWIiZzJnXDSjhSAu5bgydI6o-B-qH1SaCoK6eaMYLM3satgknWSUCuWFCXvVm6wV5PelEkQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 5aefd7f4263d549b4f7aa1f76b0aaa1c PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Tracy Powers Interviewers: Sarah Boyer and Lois Johnson November 20, 2017 �SARAH BOYER: Okay, we’re on. TRACY POWERS: Okay. SB: Today is November 20 , 2017, my name is Sarah Boyer, and I am interviewing Tracy Powers for th the Boston Daughters of Bilitis Project. With me and Tracy are Lois Johnson, cofounder of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, and Laura Catanzaro, our technical assistant, who is recording the interview. So we’ll start. Okay? So Tracy, there’s just a few things that we’d like to talk about [00:01:00] before we get into your participation on DOB. TP: Sure. SB: Okay? TP: Sure. SB: Yeah. If you don’t mind telling us your date of birth? TP: My date of birth is August 19, 1943. SB: Okay, thank you. And could I have your address? TP: My address is 20 Green, G-R-E-E-N, Street, Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts. SB: Okay. And well, do you mind saying your phone number and email on the recording? TP: My cell phone is 787-464-8987. My email is teebaye, T-E-E-B-A-Y-E, [00:02:00] at Hotmail.com. SB: Okay. As I said before, I’m surprised there’s still Hotmail, but I can see that you are, would have Hotmail. (laughter) I’m trying to throw in a little humor here. Okay. So we’re just going to talk about your background a little bit, all right? TP: Sure, Sarah. SB: Okay. Okay, where did you grow up? 2 �TP: So you don’t want me to make a joke now? SB: Yes, go and do whatever you want. TP: I’m not grown up. Okay. SB: Go ahead and make a joke. TP: I was born in Washington, D.C. My dad was in the service. And we moved to Boston, to Chestnut Hill, when I was a couple of years old. And when I was five, I moved to Oklahoma City, zone three, because my father had taken a job [00:03:00] as a Latin and Greek teacher at an independent school in Oklahoma City. So I grew up really in Oklahoma City from age 5 to 14. When we moved back to Belmont, back to the Boston area, my father and the masters in the school wanted to integrate the school. This was back in the 1950s, 1955, 1956. And a boy of color applied to this school, and the trustees said no, and that he wasn’t qualified, and they said, we will take a person of color when he or she is qualified academically. That seemed fair. So a qualified young person did apply several years later, and the trustees said, “No, we’re not ready.” And so the head of the school, my dad, and many [00:04:00] of his co-masters, said we can’t work here. And they left. LOIS JOHNSON: What school was that? TP: It was called the Cassidy School. A very well-known school. LJ: In -TP: In Oklahoma City. LJ: Oh, in Oklahoma City. SB: Oh, in Oklahoma City? TP: This is in Oklahoma City. SB: Okay. 3 �TP: And the minister at the church later, many years later, I was very proud of my father for saying that, the minister at the church later said, “You know, maybe you men could have stayed there and fought.” Anyway. SB: In hindsight. TP: Yeah. So we came, moved back to Belmont, and I went to Beaver Country Day School. My dad ended up teaching at Browne and Nichols. SB: Do you have any sibs? Brothers or sisters? TP: Yes I do. I’m the eldest of four and a half. [00:05:00] SB: Can you explain that? TP: Sure. LJ: Please explain it. TP: I was born in 1943, and two years later my parents had a boy, Samuel. And then years later they had another child, Martha. And then two years later, they had David. And many years later, they separated. They remained good friends forever. They separated. And they each remarried, and my father and his wife had another child. So she’s my half-sister, Molly. And she married a Fijian when she was in the Peace Corps, and now lives with her Fijian husband two Fijian children, and two Fijian stepchildren, in Fiji. LJ: My goodness. TP: Is this too much? Am I talking too much? SB: No, no, no, not at all. LJ: This is wonderful. SB: You know, I just have to tell you, Tracy, my next question was, [00:06:00] was there anything unusual about your childhood? And you have already (laughter) -- 4 �TP: (inaudible) I think you’ve characterized that. SB: -- answered the question. But can you think of anything else that, you know, was -- was everything else sort of quote, “normal,” or were there other things in your childhood? TP: Well we were in the only Unitarian church in the state. That was my understanding. Maybe there was one in Tulsa, Oklahoma at the time, but there weren’t many Unitarians in Oklahoma in the ’50s. And when my father quit his job, they put him on the front page of the newspaper saying he was a communist, because he was Unitarian. And I still have that article. SB: Wow. LJ: Oh boy. TP: He was an old Boston Brahmin, old Boston boy from Dartmouth and Harvard, and Harvard Law School, and he was a communist, [00:07:00] a Unitarian communist in Oklahoma City. (laughter) LJ: Amazing. TP: So that’s my -- that’s the norm of my family. SB: Yeah. So when you came back to Belmont, and you went to Beaver Country Day School, and where did you go after high school, after? TP: After high school, after four years of high school, I applied to a few colleges, and I ended up at the University of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia. I wanted to go to NYU, and my parents had never said no to me in my life, only once had they ever said no to me, ever. That was the second time, they said, “You can’t go to NYU, you’re too young and it’s too big.” LJ: What’s MIU? TP: NYU. SB: NYU. 5 �TP: New York City. Somehow, I had the idea I wanted that. I don’t know. So I went to University of Pennsylvania, and after two years, I knew [00:08:00] I couldn’t stand it. But I knew I couldn’t drop out, because I was supposed to graduate. So I went to my advisor, I was a folklore major, and then a math major. And I went to my advisor and I said, “I can’t stand it here.” I was just starting to come out, and I had to get out of there. And I said, “I need to get out and get away, but I also need to graduate.” And she said, “Well, the only people -- you can’t, because the only people we let out for a year are those language majors.” I said, “Aha!” (laughter) And I became, that day, a French major. LJ: Isn’t that amazing? TP: So I could get out for a year and go and live in the Alps. LJ: (inaudible). TP: Where I spoke no English for one year. SB: And did you get college credit for that year? TP: Yes, I got -SB: Okay. TP: -- complete credit. SB: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00] And so, you had to finish the fourth year in -TP: I finished the fourth year at Penn, I applied to graduate school, I got in to do a PhD at Penn. But I didn’t really want to be an academic, I wasn’t an academic. So I went to Middlebury College, which sent me to France for a year. (laughter) And there, I got my master’s degree. SB: Wow. Wow. LJ: Where is Millbury College? TP: Middlebury College. 6 �LJ: Middlebury College. TP: I’m sorry, I must be mumbling, Lois. LJ: No, no, it’s me. TP: It’s in Vermont. LJ: (inaudible). TP: Middlebury College in Vermont. LJ: I know it, yeah. TP: So that was a three-month, or six-week program in the summer to sort of form us, and then they shipped all the language people off to Europe. LJ: Terrific. TP: So they sent me to Paris, where I lived in a French dorm, and I spent the year there. LJ: That’s wonderful. SB: That’s great. That’s wonderful. So, now I think we’re going to get into some other topics, [00:10:00] we’ll get away a little bit from your childhood and college, and everything, and -- but you did mention that you were starting to come out at Penn. TP: Correct. SB: Yeah. And when did you, and when and how did you realize that you were different, that you were attracted to women? TP: I have always been very drawn to women, and I’ve tried to figure out why. I remember when I was 10, 10 years old, in the fifth grade, I was in love with my teacher, Miss Mooy. Laura Lee Mooy. LJ: Mooy? TP: M-O-O-Y. LJ: Moo? 7 �TP: Mooy! (laughter) And she was very, very large, and she started us out every day, this is in the ’50s, with, we sang all the songs from the services, from the Marines, the Navy, [00:11:00] the whatnot. And we did math puzzles, and I was very drawn to her. And I think I explain that now to myself as that I never got the mothering that I craved as a child. And so, that’s what really got me started in being drawn to women. I couldn’t get her, so I had to get somebody else. And this went on through high school, through college, after college -SB: What do you mean, what went on? TP: Trying to get this mothering. Trying to find it, craving it. Couldn’t think of anything else. SB: Well what -- okay. So, you were craving that mothering. TP: Maternal connection. SB: Right. But what actually, what did you do [00:12:00] about having a relationship? TP: A relationship. SB: I mean did you think in your mind that you wanted a relationship? TP: Yes. Yes. SB: And how did that happen? TP: Well, I was in love with my high school English teacher. (laughter) Of course. Thoroughly in love with her, wanted to get in bed with her, wanted her to hold me, wanted to have sex with her. And so when I got to college, I discovered, I lived in a dormitory with 800 women. It was a huge thing designed by Saarinen, and there were four houses. Two hundred, 200, 200, and 200. And I found a lesbian in there. LJ: One! (laughter) TP: I found one! SB: One! One. 8 �TP: I found one. And she was two years older, so I must have been a, I was a sophomore, and she had [00:13:00] spent her junior year in France, in the same place that I went. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you found her. SB: Something in common. TP: Well I found her, and I knew she was a lesbian, and I told her that I was in love with my high school English teacher, and that I needed practice. LJ: (laughter). TP: I needed practice, I didn’t know how to do sex. LJ: How romantic! (laughter) TP: I didn’t know how to do love, I didn’t know it. I was 18, 19 years old. SB: She wasn’t offended by that? TP: And I wanted to -- no, and we’re still very close friends. She was not offended at all, she was delighted. LJ: That’s wonderful. (laughter) Wonderful. That’s the most original way of coming out I’ve ever heard. SB: I know! I know what -TP: So, we became lovers when I was a sophomore in college, and we slept in the dorm together, and my roommate turned me in. My roommate was very upset that I wasn’t sleeping in my room. [00:14:00] LJ: Oh! TP: And she turned me in, and then I got called, you know, to the dean, and all that. And -SB: What happened? 9 �TP: Well ultimately, the woman who kind of counseled me, she wasn’t my advisor, but she was a very close friend, and one of these graduate students living in the dorm, and she told me, and I still see her, she told me subsequently that had I not been planning to leave and go to Europe, and had Jackie not been planning to go to medical school the next year, that you know, they would have had to do something about us. But because I was leaving, and because she was leaving, that they just kind of, “Okay, there’s just a few months left, and we’ll let it pass.” LJ: Amazing. SB: Did they look the other way when you continued to -TP: Well -SB: -- sleep together? TP: Yeah. LJ: What year was this? SB: So Jackie had her own room? TP: [00:15:00] Jackie had a single, I had a double. SB: Right. LJ: What year was this? TP: This would have been ’61, ’62 ’61, let’s see, I was a freshman in ’61, ’62, so this would have been ’62, ’63, probably in the spring of ’63, 1963. She was the only one I knew in the whole place. LJ: I’m sure sub rosa, there were many others as well. TP: Well -LJ: No? TP: -- I’m sure you’re right, Lois. 10 �SB: I’m sure you are too. Tracy, now you went to Europe, and I’m sure you traveled a lot, not just Europe, but in whatever -- how did you get back into Boston? [00:16:00] What -TP: You don’t want to know about my junior year abroad, and my lovers that year? LJ: Oh, yes. TP: No. SB: Well we do. TP: Okay. LJ: Yeah, we do. SB: Yes, we do. LJ: We do, we’ve got enough time. SB: Okay. Yes, we do. TP: So I went to live in a family in Grenoble in the Alps, and I lasted there one month. I gained 20 pounds, I drank myself, I drank a lot, and my roommate there was American, and didn’t speak French. I said well, I can’t live here, I don’t want to speak English. I’m not speaking English, I’m here in France. So I moved into an apartment with an elderly lady, and had my own room, and had almost no light. The French are very stingy with the light. And that lasted a while. Then I was au pair [00:17:00] for a family, and that was pretty nice. And while I was an au pair, I went to a party and I met a lesbian. Now this woman is, she’s -- this woman had a lover in Paris. Now that lover was in Shape. Do you remember Shape? It was part of the Army, and she -- this woman taught the Army children. And she had a huge salary, and a car, and the PX, and all this. So Theresa was off every other weekend with this lover, but meanwhile we were lovers also. And Theresa had another lover in Grenoble named Nicole, with whom I’m still very, very close! (laughter) And one day, Nicole was over, and Theresa was off in Paris, and Nicole and I 11 �had a meal, she wasn’t my girlfriend or lover, but I [00:18:00] was very drawn to her, and she made a big salad, and we had some left over, and Theresa came home, and she saw the salad, and she said, “Nicole has been here.” So anyway, Theresa was my lover for the rest of that year. We got an apartment together, a beautiful view of the Alps. LJ: Wonderful. TP: Had a great time. And I knew a few gay men that year, too. I had a very -- one man and I were going to get married. Anyway, didn’t speak any English the rest of that year. LJ: Any of the (inaudible). For the whole year? TP: No English, except at the beginning when the roommate didn’t know anything. SB: Can I just ask you about the gay man? You say -TP: Yes. SB: -- you were thinking of getting married? TP: Yeah, he was just kind of like -- no, no, he was in my program. And he became a professor of French in California, he was American. SB: Right. TP: And he was pursuing another guy, who was British. And so he and I were very close, we acknowledged we were both gay, [00:19:00] and we said okay, well we could get married -- he said we could get married, and you know, and be -LJ: A nice cover. TP: -- and be friends, and be a nice couple, we both love French, we’re both going into French teaching, and we’ll get married. Well, that didn’t go. LJ: Aren’t you glad that you didn’t do that? (laughter) 12 �TP: I am. I mean I really liked him, but I certainly didn’t love him, and I’m glad I stuck it out. Okay, go ahead. SB: So, yes, but is there more to this part of your life that you’d like to talk about? Other relationships that you had after this one? TP: Well, I came -SB: I mean like -TP: -- you asked me, I came back to University of Pennsylvania to graduate. And I wore Marimekko dresses, and expensive Italian shoes to class every day, I don’t know why. I had a motorcycle, [00:20:00] a small one, that I parked (laughter) in back of my apartment. And meanwhile, the roommate that had turned me in was still a close friend, and she went to the dean and she said, you know, Tracy’s coming back for her year in Europe, and I think you should give her a single. (laughter) Which I was given a single, an apartment. And so that year, an underclassman fell for me, a woman in my Italian class. She was, ended up a professor also, of women’s studies! And so we, you know, we had our affair for that last year. I was -SB: Yeah, it’s nice. Nice. TP: Yeah. Yeah, she invited me out to her home, she was Catholic, and had many brothers and sisters, Italian. I rode out on my little motorbike out to the suburbs, and I remember the conversation, and we weren’t out to each other, but we were drawn to each other, [00:21:00] and she said, “Well do you like to read?” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “Well what do you, do you read any books about, you know, women?” And I said, “Yeah.” (laughter) And so finally, when we started talking about The Well of Loneliness, we knew -- we knew the scope. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SB: So did, after you graduated, did you -- oh, you went to Middlebury after that. 13 �TP: After I graduated, I went to Middlebury that summer, yeah. And then I went to Paris for that year. SB: Okay, that’s right. And then, you came back to Boston? TP: Then I got sick. I got sick in Paris. I was eating in a French restaurant, and five of the French kids got sick, and I got sick. We got hepatitis. All got it. And they were treated, and I was sent to the American hospital, misdiagnosed at first, and so I got really, really sick. [00:22:00] And they sent me home, finally, and my parents picked me up and took me immediately to Mount Auburn Hospital, where I was in quarantine for one month. People had to wear masks to come and visit me. I had a really, really bad case. And the doctor in Paris said I have never seen a worse case, I don’t know why you’re alive. So, my doctor, Dr. Selverstone, said, “You can’t do anything for a year.” I said, “Does it matter where I do nothing?” “You can have no alcohol, no fat for a year, but you can go anywhere.” So I went to live in Florence, Italy, with a friend, a lesbian, for a year. We weren’t lovers, but meanwhile, my lover from Penn had a Fulbright (laughter) to Trieste, so [00:23:00] we spent some time together that year. There was a string of women all along. But I was never getting what I was looking for. Never. LJ: No, you were looking for mothering. TP: I was looking for mothering, an older woman who would somehow give me what I never had as a child. And I’ve gotten over that now, but it took many years. So when I was living in Florence, the flood came. And, you know, many people were killed, a lot of animals were killed, and a lot of the artwork was damaged. SB: What year was that? TP: That was 1966. And I had planned to work, to do some lightweight work in libraries, or you know, archiving, or do something. But no, there was nothing to do. So we lived on top of a hill, we could see the Duomo from our [00:24:00] house. 14 �LJ: What is the Duomo? TP: The Duomo is the big church and the tower in Florence. So we were in the south part of town, I had a car, and from Mary’s bedroom, we could see down. We were in an olive orchard. SB: Wonderful. TP: So, I decided I’ve got to get a job, I’ve got to pay back my parents, they had lent me money, $1,000, to do this year. And we ate on $1 a day. I mean I had a budget, I ate out twice the whole year, my grandmother sent me money, and I ate out. I had no money at all. And so, I wanted to pay back my parents, so I wrote three letters. I wrote one to Beaver Country Day, I wrote one to Lexington High School, and I wrote one, I’m not sure if it was Chapel Hill or Walnut Hill, and I said, “This is my story, I have a master’s degree in French, and I want to start my career.” [00:25:00] And they all wrote back, two of them sent me contracts. LJ: Really? TP: And Lexington High School said you’re not certified, we can’t hire someone who’s not certified. But the private schools didn’t need that. So the Hill school, I don’t -- I think maybe it was Walnut Hill, Chapel Hill? LJ: Walnut Hill [I suppose?]. TP: It was an art school, and they said yes, this is a contract, you can live in the dorm and do blah, blah, blah. And then Beaver Country Day School offered me, you know, money and a full-time job. And I said well, I’ll go to Beaver, because I know the school, and I know the head of the department, whom I admire. And of course, my English teacher was still there! (laughter) So I went there and I taught for eight years. And I had an affair with another teacher, a woman. And we were roommates and lovers, so. [00:26:00] SB: Now, how did you find out about the DOB? 15 �TP: How did I find out about DOB? SB: Yeah. LJ: People appeared at our door, but we were never quite sure how they found out. (laughter) TP: Sure. That’s a good -- you know, I didn’t address that when I was thinking about preparing for today. This is what I think happened. I taught at Beaver Country Day, and then I decided I need my own school. Not where I went to high school, but my own school. So I -SB: You wanted to open your own school? TP: No, no, I wanted to go to a school where I wasn’t known. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SB: Oh, where you weren’t known, okay. TP: So I was talking to a good friend, he was the head of the science department, he left. And he was the headmaster of another school now. And so I -- he was a good friend, I went to him and I said, you know, I need my own school. He said, “Well go to Groton,” he said, “they’re going co-ed, and they have no women, they’ve got to get some in there. [00:27:00] And furthermore, the head is a good friend of mine.” So he picked up the phone, made the interview for me, I went, had my interview, it was Roland Cox, who was the brother of Archibald Cox, very wellknown guy. And I went for my interview, and he interviewed me, and he offered me the job on the spot. LJ: Wonderful. TP: And I looked at him in the eye and I said, “Well, don’t you have other people to interview? Don’t you want to see everybody, and then pick the best one?” And he looked at me and he said, “Well why should I go further? I found the one I want.” LJ: That’s wonderful. 16 �TP: So I said well, I need three days to think about it. So I went to my father, and I said, “Dad I don’t know what to do.” And he said the boarding school will suck your blood for sure, because he’d gone to Exeter, and he knew. And my mother wouldn’t let him go and teach in a prep school, in a boarding school, because she knew that that was disaster. [00:28:00] And he said the boarding school will suck your blood. He said, what you do is you go home, take a piece of paper, write the reasons to go to Groton, and the reasons to stay at Beaver. And I did. I was a good girl, I sat down and did that, and all the reasons to go for Groton were, I was afraid, I was -- it was new, and all the reasons to stay at Beaver were just, you know, I’m afraid to go. So it was very obvious, I had to go. I called up Roland Cox and said I’ll take the job. SB: You were always, you always pushed yourself forward. TP: Yeah. LJ: Well, you’re a Leo. TP: I’m a Leo, like Lois is! So, and this is getting to answer your question, Sarah, thank you. So during the four years I was at Groton, which were fabulous, fabulous years, I would come down to Boston, and I would go to some bookstore in Cambridge, [00:29:00] I guess it was New Words. LJ: New Words. SB: New Words. TP: And there was also a place that had a gay newspaper. That was one of my stops. I would come down once a week -LJ: GCN. TP: Yes. Gay Community News. LJ: That was in Boston. 17 �TP: It was in -- well this was in Cam-- I would go to Cambridge to get this, because I was in a choir in a church in Cambridge at the same time I was at Groton. I don’t know how I did that. And I would go, and that was the -- and Sojourner. SB: Sojourner. LJ: Sojourner, okay. TP: And these were so important, and I knew I just had to find a community, because I had none in Groton. I did have a very serious lover who was the wife of one of my colleagues. And she couldn’t, we couldn’t make a commitment, because she had three children. Oh, I don’t think you can put this in. LJ: No, we’ll ask what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Yes, you can! She’s out. She’s out now. LJ: Yeah. TP: And she said, “Tracy, you know, my husband and my family,” she said, “but I’m in love with you.” So she said, [00:30:00] “We’ll be together in our twilight years.” LJ: Hello? TP: She sat there! (laughter) SB: Pick up the phone and -TP: Oh yeah, we’re in touch. We’re in touch. But I was very interested in getting my hands on these newspapers. Because I knew I had to find a group to get to, I mean I was this one woman here, and one woman there, one woman there, there was no community whatsoever. I hadn’t thought of it this way, Lois, but that’s what it was. There was no community, it was individuals. You know, the mothers, looking for the mothers, looking for -LJ: Private parties. 18 �TP: Private parties. And so, after four years, I decided I can’t stay at Groton, it’s eating me alive here. It’s 24/7, I ran a dorm, I coached sports, I coached rowing, which I knew nothing about. LJ: As your father told you, they’ll eat you alive. TP: Well, it was a lifestyle that really fit [00:31:00] a lot of these single men, but it didn’t suit me. I needed a life outside of work. And it was totally consuming. To run a -- I mean I had to get the girls up at 6:30, get them to chapel, teach five classes, teach sports afterwards, eat with them three meals a day, and spend the evening, you know, listening to them, and counseling them. It was 24-- you know, it was -- I loved it. I loved every minute, but after four years, I said I’m getting out of here, I have to do another degree. That’s an easy way to get out. So I did another degree, another master’s at -LJ: In French? TP: In Boston University. I did it in TESOL. Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages, because I thought well, I’ve taught French now for 12 years, maybe I’ll teach foreigners English. So I did all -- and I got all the pedagogy. All the pedagogy [00:32:00] I never got at Middlebury. I knew, you know, why children were motivated, why they weren’t, how to make people learn. I mean I knew that intuitively, but I really, I got it. LJ: BU was an excellent school. TP: This was a fabulous program. There was a genius over there. So then during that year, because I hadn’t really gotten out very much in the time I was at Groton, I said to myself, “I’m going to go out for 30 nights in a row.” And I did. Just concerts, and see friends, and I think it was during that year that I discovered DOB. LJ: GCN did have some ads. TP: Some ads! There were ads. 19 �LJ: There were some ads in GCN, at least we tried (inaudible). TP: And Sojourner? SB: I was going to say -LJ: I don’t know about Sojourner. TP: You don’t know? You don’t remember? LJ: No. We tried very hard to get it in the Globe, and we were refused over and over. TP: Never saw it in the Globe. It must have been GCN where I got -LJ: But it might have been in the alternate, like the Avatar. TP: Oh yeah. Avatar. LJ: And there was [00:33:00] another newspaper also. TP: Oh the one [at night], [either Boston After Dark or The Phoenix.] LJ: Which I can’t remember the name of. TP: Yeah. LJ: But we tried to get the word out as much as we could, but it was hard. TP: Well I think, I believe that it was in GCN that I saw that there was a group -LJ: It was probably GCN. Yeah. TP: -- and I was just dying to go. But yeah, so I did go. And I didn’t go to your group first because you had to be 35 years old -LJ: That’s right. TP: -- to go to your group, Lois, and I wasn’t of age yet. LJ: Well. (laughter) SB: Could you just explain a little bit more about that? That you and Shari were cofounders? 20 �LJ: May I correct that a little bit? The founder of the DOB in Boston was Jan Chase. Oh, okay, and we came in later. TP: Right. LJ: And there were other women, you know, who founded it in ’69 [00:34:00] with Jan, and then we came on later. We just happen to be the only living people around, (laughter) I think from those very early days. And when she’s talking about not being in my group, we had many different kinds of, quote, “Raps.” TP: Raps. LJ: Or discussions, as the case might be. And these were all conducted in Cambridge, at Old Cambridge Baptist Church. And we had a regular one at first, and then because we had so many people pouring through, and people wanted definition also, we did a regular rap, 18 and up, we did a 35-plus rap, we had a mothers’ rap. Later on, we had an older women’s rap, 50-plus. And at one point, we had [00:35:00] 10 raps a month. But, so that would define a little bit what -TP: Exactly. LJ: -- we were saying. TP: Exactly. So the first rap I went to was a Barbara Webber rap. And it was chaos. SB: Can you just say what -- it wasn’t a Barbara Webber rap, what was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -TP: Right, sorry, Barbara -SB: -- 18-plus -TP: It must have been an 18-plus, it was a regular -- no, no, it wasn’t 30-plus. SB: It was everybody all together probably. TP: It was everybody all together. 21 �SB: Okay. TP: And Barbara Webber was the rap leader. And I was terrified to drive over to that church, and to go in. I just, I probably tried it a few times before I actually ever got there. I was terrified. Terrified someone would see me, terrified I would lose my job [00:36:00] if somebody, the wrong person walked into the room. I was a schoolteacher. I didn’t know what would happen if people thought I was at a lesbian rap. LJ: Yeah. TP: I was terrified, I thought I’ll walk into this room, and there’ll be people I don’t know, maybe they’re weird, I had no idea. I had never been to a room where there were -- except for my friends. LJ: More than one lesbian. TP: More than one. So I walked in, and as I said, it was chaos. There were some very, very strange women in that room. And I have to credit Barbara Weber, because after this one hour rap, would you say it was an hour? LJ: About an hour, hour and a half. TP: Hour and a half. Barbara Webber came up to me, and she said, “Tracy,” she said, “it was chaos tonight, and it was strange.” And I said, “Yeah.” She said, “I’d really like you to come back and do two more [00:37:00] raps. And if you think it’s not for you, that’s fine. But give it a chance.” And I’m really, really glad that she encouraged me to do that, because I was just, I thought this is the craziest place I’ve ever been, I don’t think I belong here. So I did come back a couple of times, and it had calmed down, and I saw a few repeat people, and I saw oh yeah, this is just, this is okay. And that was the beginning for me -LJ: That was the beginning. 22 �TP: -- of community. The very beginning. Boy was that important. LJ: We were glad that you came. So glad. TP: I was a little mouse in those groups. SB: You didn’t speak? TP: No, not the way I’m speaking now. LJ: No, I’ve never thought of you as a mouse. TP: I was a mouse, Lois, in those early years. We’d go around the room, and we’d say our name, and one or two details. And some of these women would go on and on about their stories, [00:38:00] and I remember I would say, “My name is Tracy Powers, and I teach French.” Period. And I think I was waiting for someone to bring me out. I didn’t know how. I didn’t know how to say more. And I see myself as having done that for years, and really not really done much except show up. But that was so important. LJ: Which was enough. Which was enough to be (inaudible). TP: It was very, very satisfying and important, and that was once a month, you’re saying? LJ: Once a month, that -- no, twice a month, I think. TP: Was it twice a month? LJ: Yeah, twice a month. TP: I can’t remember. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SB: Can I just ask you though -- I’m sorry. LJ: No, no, no, you go ahead. SB: At any time in these raps, was, did Barbara say well, the topic tonight is, or was it just [00:39:00] totally just go around and say what’s going on with you now? 23 �TP: That would be the beginning, Sarah, of the rap. We would identify ourselves. SB: Okay. And then Barbara -TP: And then, depending on the leader, there would be a topic or not. SB: Okay. TP: Okay? SB: Yeah. TP: And another important feature of this, and you can help me here, because I can’t remember the name of the restaurant, we would go after the rap, we would often out as a smaller group to, was it Stouffers? LJ: I can’t remember, we’d sometimes go to the Burger Cottage -TP: This was -LJ: -- which is down the street. SB: Oh, Bartley’s? LJ: Bartley’s Burger Cottage. SB: Yeah. LJ: [Emphasis?]. And then, we went to a Greek restaurant, which was up on Mass Avenue. TP: Yeah. No, no. This was -LJ: That wasn’t it? TP: -- this was a coffee shop closer to Harvard Square. Closer to the center of Harvard Square. LJ: Probably something which has been [00:40:00] obscured (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: [Schrafft’s?] maybe. LJ: It might have been something like that. TP: It started with S. 24 �LJ: But we always encouraged that, because it was necessary for people to have that casual feeling of, “I am not in a structured place, I am listening to somebody tell me about, you know, they went to such and such a place,” blah, blah, blah, or their family, or whatever they want to talk about. TP: Yeah. LJ: Or they have a child at home, or this, that, or the other. And that was always encouraged. TP: That was very important, I think. LJ: Yeah. TP: And I still was worried that I would be spotted there with a group of lesbians, some were kind of obvious, others of us were not. LJ: People didn’t know the word lesbian -TP: No. LJ: -- in those days. They’d just have a -TP: What did we say? LJ: They would think it was just sort of a group of women having lunch, or a snack together, most of the time. Except if there was somebody poking [00:41:00] around. TP: Well we had some of those. LJ: Oh, we did, yeah. We had -TP: And I remember meeting Mary Ann Casella at one of those raps, and then -LJ: Yeah, Mary Ann was very -TP: -- having coffee, and just -- so I’ve known her for quite a while now. LJ: Yeah, Mary Ann’s been very important in the history of DOB. She did a lot of work for us. Yeah. Did you go to events eventually? TP: For example? Didn’t we have parties and dinners? 25 �LJ: Parties at 156 Warren Avenue. TP: Oh! Of course Lois. Parties at your house, your and Sheri’s wonderful, wonderful -- of course. The Christmas parties, and -LJ: Halloween. TP: Could be, but the Christmas parties were wonderful. LJ: Valentine’s. TP: Yes, Valentine’s. Yes. Went to parties there. And I believe that DOB had dances. LJ: [00:42:00] We had dances, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: And we had Thanksgivings, perhaps. LJ: Oh we had some, did -TP: Did we? LJ: -- we did. Yeah. TP: Or am I thinking of [Ole?] LJ: No, no, we had -- Thanksgiving was celebrated a week early in the base-- in the basement of the church. TP: In the church, in the basement of the church, and the water came in one year, the flood. (laughter) SB: Everybody remembers that. TP: Yeah. SB: It was going under the door, and people said oh my God. (laughter) TP: And these parties and gatherings were so important, just to build community. And often, in the early days, I would go, I wasn’t attached to anybody in the group particularly, and -- but I just needed to be there. Very, very important, the community aspect. The parties. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the singing. 26 �TP: The singing, of course. LJ: At Christmas. TP: I wore my kilt, and my jacket I bought on Newbury Street, [00:43:00] you know, and we sang “The 12 Days of Christmas,” and I would -LJ: Indeed we did! TP: -- act it out. (laughter) LJ: Indeed we did. SB: Did you just sing as a group? You did -TP: Christmas carols. SB: Yeah. Yeah, what am I thinking? TP: Not gay songs. SB: You did -TP: We didn’t know any gay -SB: -- you didn’t go anywhere to sing? TP: No, we sang at Lois and Shari’s home. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) living room at 156 Warren Avenue. TP: One fifty-six Warren Avenue. Yeah. SB: Right. Right. TP: And I just thought, you know, we were the only group in the world probably doing this. Just, it seemed very, very, very special. You provided a home. LJ: It provided community (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Community. I didn’t even know that word in those days. LJ: No, I know. None of us did. 27 �TP: You did, you did a little. You’re older, you must have known it before I did. LJ: We needed the people. We got as much as we were able to give. TP: You gave so much. [00:44:00] Thank you. LJ: Yeah. It was fun. TP: Thank you. LJ: You’re welcome. TP: So, I’ll try to speed it up a little maybe, I don’t know. LJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Eventually, yeah, what is our time? SB: Oh, we’ve got time. LJ: We’ve got time. TP: Okay. SB: I just wanted to ask if there were other activities that you were involved in? TP: Well eventually, I became the corresponding secretary of the Daughters of Bilitis in, with Lois and Sheri. I was the secretary, which meant I built the calendar. So I guess -LJ: Yes, you did. TP: -- I guess we would have a monthly meeting to plan the activities, the events, and then -LJ: We had a business meeting every month. TP: -- a business meeting, probably some finances. We had a treasurer, I believe? LJ: Yes, Ellen Herter. TP: That’s right. LJ: Yeah. TP: Okay. 28 �LJ: Yeah. (laughter) TP: And -LJ: I’m trying to remember. SB: I think I know what’s coming! (laughter) TP: No, no you don’t. No, you don’t. But I’ll tell you later. SB: Okay. TP: So, no. Not me. [00:45:00] Not me and Ellen, no. SB: Okay. TP: Never. She and somebody else. (laughter) So, I became the corresponding secretary, and therefore went to the business meeting, and by then, I was really getting involved, and really wanted to do my part for the organization. LJ: Which you did do. TP: And so, I did those calendars for years. And I have one little story about that, is when I taught at Windsor, I was the corresponding secretary, and I would run off at least one copy in our ditto, in our copier. And one time -LJ: And you left (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Exactly, Lois. One time, and my office was on the third floor, and that copier was in the basement. So I had to, you know, run four -- I realized I’d gotten up to the office, and I had left the calendar (laughter) with my name on it, nobody else’s. [00:46:00] I had left it in the copier, and I ran downstairs, thinking I may be fired. Somebody, the wrong person finds that, I don’t know. Maybe I wouldn’t have been fired at that point. But I did recover it. LJ: Thank God! (laughter) 29 �TP: And then I would print copies someplace, and then bring them down. Or maybe I didn’t print the copies, maybe you printed the copies. LJ: I think we printed the copies. TP: I think I took the master. I just wanted to print the master. LJ: You had the master. TP: And these were days, this was the day before computers, so I would type it up on an old Olivetti. And then I would drive it, no email, I would drive it to your home and ring the bell, and leave it in the mailbox, come and pick it up. LJ: And we would come and pick it up, and make the copies. TP: And you’d make the copies. LJ: And then we sent -- we watched a lot of television shows (inaudible) labels and all that stuff. Yeah. TP: Yeah. LJ: Yeah, it was quite a cooperating venture. TP: Well we work well together. [00:47:00] LJ: Yeah, we did. TP: And then at one point, this is an aside. At one point I decided, or we decided, or the rap decided, that our meeting room was not clean enough. So I raised my hand and said, I will go to Zayre’s and buy a vacuum cleaner. And I would clean up the office periodically. LJ: Wonderful. TP: When I came in. LJ: People did -TP: Well -LJ: -- wonderful things, you know? 30 �TP: -- you know, we started to contribute in ways that were needed. LJ: Yeah, we did. It was terrific. TP: We all did. LJ: It was a home. TP: It was. Yes. LJ: It was a home for so many people. TP: And then when Lois and Shari stepped down -SB: When was that, Lois? LJ: Oh God, the early ’90s (inaudible). TP: Oh that’s what you said, the early ’90s. LJ: Yeah, yeah. TP: Then leadership changed, and it’s -- when [00:48:00] leadership changes, it’s always a challenge. LJ: It’s always a change, everybody’s different. TP: Everybody’s different, and I found that I wanted to support the incoming leadership, I thought it was important, and I tried to, and I did the best that I could. And I don’t really remember how long I continued to be the corresponding secretary. Not -- maybe a year or so, maybe. And then in the end, someone else took it over. I wasn’t -- I was doing other things probably by then. LJ: By that time, the ultimate need that we needed for DOB was becoming diffused, because there were other groups coming on. Certainly prejudice was still out there, but we were getting some other groups. TP: For example. LJ: For example. TP: The Gay Professional Women, GPW. 31 �LJ: Yes. TP: And I started, [00:49:00] the minute that started, I was all involved in that. LJ: And you were -TP: And made many friends. I was really ready to make some good friends at that point. And what other groups? Ole. LJ: Ole, there was a part of the mountain climbing clubs, you know, individual things. There was a Jewish -- Am Tikva, a Jewish group. There were various other groups. Of course there were Dignity. TP: Yes. LJ: And I forget the name of the other one affiliated with another church, with the Catholic Church. TP: Well, there was the MCC. LJ: Yeah, MCC. Yeah. So there was this -TP: Arlington Street Church was -- was very active. LJ: Arlington Street Church has always been there from the very beginning. You can give the Unitarians wonderful credit for helping people, and also -TP: Yeah. LJ: -- to the Cowley Fathers of the Anglican Church. I don’t know how they did it, but [00:50:00] they supported us. (laughter) They must have known we were lesbians. TP: I think by the time you and Sheri stepped down and the leadership changed, I think that DOB was one of maybe not many, but at least one of several different organizations. There were -- there more choices. And every year, there were more choices. LJ: There were. 32 �TP: And then people divided into age groups, and so that 35-plus rap that you led became very important to me. I really liked the idea of the older women being together. LJ: Having people who are -TP: Thirty-five being old. LJ: You know, being more in professional life, or a working life, at least. [So it was?]. SB: Would you say that the DOB attracted a diverse group of women, [00:51:00] in terms of class, in terms of color? TP: Wrote that down. SB: In terms of work? Or would you say it was more homogeneous, or? TP: I wonder if Lois and I would agree with this. SB: Well what’s your, both of you then. TP: Okay, sure. LJ: You go ahead. Yeah. TP: Sure. I’ll go first. I felt, as a very privileged white woman, that a large majority of the women in DOB were working class. There were exceptions, but that was my opinion. Some very tough women who had had some very, very hard times. LJ: I think that you’re partially correct. But I think as it went on, [00:52:00] it attracted a whole spectrum of people. Particularly when we started to have a mothers group, we would have mothers who were from, you know, maybe middle classes -TP: Okay. LJ: -- even upper classes. And also, working class, you know, whatever, if you want to divide up people. But there was more diversity, but I tend to agree with you, and I think that that’s probably one of the things that made it difficult perhaps in the beginning for people, because a 33 �middle-class person, if the working class person is expressing herself more as a highly masculine woman, or has adapted that kind of paradigm for herself, it was harder, or it was frightening -TP: Yeah. LJ: -- for some women who had never, ever met another lesbian. Or they identified that [00:53:00] as the lesbian way of being, and they said I’m not that way. Which is not in any way to criticize that, people have to express what they can express. But I would agree to a certain point with you. TP: Well, I never went to the mothers group, so I was completely unaware of that. But I do remember a couple of very rough characters. One of whom had a girlfriend that had broken up with her, and so she went to her house and built a fire under her door. LJ: Oh, she was from New Hampshire. TP: And the thing is, I mean she was working class and very, very smart, if we’re thinking of the same person. And I was just, do I know someone like this? This is so amazing, I hadn’t ever met anyone like that. So yes, diverse. For me, it was very diverse. LJ: It was very diverse, yeah. TP: You know, I grew up with [00:54:00] academics. Now, people of color? Not so many. However, I do remember one, what did we call people in those days? A male, a man who was born a male, who -LJ: A trans, wo-TP: A -- what did we call them then? SB: Oh, a transsexual? LJ: Maybe transsexual. Those terms were -TP: That’s what we’d say today. 34 �LJ: -- in use, transsexual -TP: We had another -LJ: -- or men who liked to dress in women’s clothes. Transvestites. TP: Well there was one who did come to DOB, and I was very confused about this. And I was angry at her, because she had all -- she had been a stockbroker, I think, or in business, and had all this experience and privilege as a white man, and then decided to be a woman. And didn’t pass at all. LJ: Oh, this was a big tall woman? [00:55:00] TP: Yes. (laughter) LJ: Oh I remember her, yeah. TP: Yeah. LJ: Martha. TP: Yes, it was Martha. LJ: Martha was, Martha was a good person. Martha -TP: I was, this was the first person I had met of, and -LJ: Yeah. But looked very much like a man -TP: Yeah. LJ: -- and I don’t know if the hormone therapy in those days wasn’t working, or what it was, but -- and also, just could not seem to overcome the male, not privilege, but the male approach, or opening the door for everybody, pushing chairs in, you know, acting as though they were utterly in charge. (laughter) I mean it was just -TP: Oh, so you know, you look around the room, and you have one person who had tried to burn down a door, and then you had someone who was dressing as a woman, wanted to be a woman in some 35 �ways, but who had this privilege as a man. So yes, very diverse. And I was just all eyes and ears, trying to learn, trying to figure it out, what [00:56:00] -- who are we? Do we have something in common here? LJ: Yeah. TP: And very willing to engage with all these people. SB: Well I was just going to say, both of you, you know, a lot of women coming from your backgrounds probably wouldn’t have lasted too long in this environment. I mean, you know, but that’s, it’s really interesting, because there must have been a lot of, you must have gotten to know a lot of working class -TP: Yes. Yes. SB: -- women that were, that you, you know, you became not -TP: I became friends with some of these women. SB: You became friends. TP: Very good friends. I mean, going out to dinner and doing things together. And I met another woman of the, of my own [00:57:00] class, education, a writer, and so she had a party at her house in Newton. And she was into spirituality, and so before we knew it, it was a Halloween party, I don’t know, we were all on the floor, all these lesbians from the -- Newton, we were all on the floor, crawling around, and I always think, do I really want to be doing this? No, you got to see, this is what the party’s about, we’re going to, crawling on our knees in our Bass Weejuns, you know, going from room to room, and what are we doing here? There’s a potluck, there’s food. LJ: Was that 1973? (laughter) TP: This was Barbara, a different Barbara. 36 �LJ: I know, I know. TP: Who changed her name. LJ: Oh my goodness gracious. TP: I just thought, you know, I must fit in somewhere, I’m still looking. (laughter) I fit in very well to my [00:58:00] professional life. And was very grounded there. And it took me a long time in the lesbian community to really find a community where I really belonged. SB: Where you really belonged -TP: Oh yeah. SB: -- and people you can really relate to. TP: And I could relate to all these working class people, too. I don’t mean that I couldn’t relate to them, but it wasn’t a group of people, there wasn’t a cohesion there with kind of anything more common than we liked women. And in the end, that’s not really a huge -- I mean it is, and it isn’t. SB: But are you saying that the working class women weren’t cohesive together as a group? TP: Well, but we weren’t just working class women. That group wasn’t -SB: But I’m talking about the working class women. Did they, do you feel like they felt they were cohesive with each other? TP: I don’t know. SB: You don’t? TP: I don’t know, we just sort of all were pleasant and [00:59:00] related. SB: Pleasant (laughter) crawling on the floor. LJ: Oh! (laughter) TP: I completely forgot about that. And there was probably music in the (inaudible). (laughter) 37 �LJ: What about -TP: Smoking? LJ: Were they smoking marijuana? TP: I don’t think so, no. They weren’t. They definitely weren’t, because I had very limited experience with marijuana myself, and it definitely was, not was only one time, and it was not there. LJ: Not there? (laughter) Yeah. SB: I just have one question about sports, were there any sports teams? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) TP: Yes. SB: With DOB? TP: Yes. SB: Yeah. TP: And this was really, really important, we had a DOB baseball -LJ: Softball team. TP: -- softball team. Yes. Softball team, and we played -LJ: In the Magazine Beach. TP: Magazine Beach Park [01:00:00] -LJ: In Cambridge. TP: -- right under the BU Bridge, in Cambridge. And I was not a good softball player. I’m a good athlete in some, in racket sports, but not in softball, but I played, because I wanted to be there, and we had a lot of people, and we had a good time, and then I believe after we played, we’d go over to S&S in Cambridge -LJ: Yes we’d go to S&S Deli. 38 �TP: -- and there might be 20, 30 people at a table, and I just thought, oh this is really something. LJ: That was real companionship for people. Because it happened on a weekend, on Sundays usually. TP: Probably on a Sunday. LJ: Yeah. TP: Right. SB: Every week? TP: Probably during -LJ: Basically every week for a while. TP: Probably during those three months in the summer. It wasn’t all year round. And yeah, it felt much more, yeah, cohesive. I mean we had, we were all lesbians, and we were all playing this sport. And so, we had a lot of stories around that. LJ: Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:00] TP: Yeah. SB: Nice. Were there other -LJ: I had one suggestion here. Did you participate in gay pride marches? TP: Oh good, I put that down here. I certainly did. Initially, I would go down to the corner of Charles Street and Beacon Street, and watch. And I would see people I knew, and I -- my students probably would see me, and I was terrified And then one year, I saw three or four students, and they saw me, and I remember running for the subway. I just, this is when I was watching. Just in the area. I was afraid to be seen. LJ: Well you had a good reason to be afraid in those days. SB: Yeah. 39 �TP: And so, I went down in the subway, went home, I was crying in the subway. And I just said to myself next year, you’re going to march, you’re just going to do it, and if you get fired, too bad. And so I did, and that was just a huge -LJ: That’s a [01:02:00] wonderful thing. TP: -- that was a huge, it was, just felt so good, and I must have marched with the -LJ: With DOB. TP: -- with DOB. LJ: We had a huge banner. TP: I’m just thinking, I must have carried the banner. LJ: I think you did. TP: Yeah. Okay. LJ: I think you did. I had that -- we took a lot of pictures at one point. We don’t have them, now they’re at The History Project. And I think one of them is you carrying the banner? -- I’ll go down and look. SB: Did you leave DOB because of the change in leadership? Or -TP: I never left DOB. SB: You never left DOB? TP: Oh no, I never left DOB. There were two different leadership periods after Lois and Sheri. Correct? LJ: I think so. Stephanie -TP: There was Jean Ko Stewart. LJ: Yes, there was Jean Ko Stewart. TP: She took over from you and Sheri. And it was, it sort of went as-is. As it was. 40 �LJ: As it was. TP: Sort of. Sort of. But meanwhile, [01:03:00] there were more and more groups. And then when she stepped off, and I don’t remember the circumstances, someone else, Stephanie, stepped in, and by then, really DOB wasn’t attracting a lot of people. LJ: Well basically, by that time, there had been a formal vote to disband that we felt that the mission was accomplished. TP: The mission was accomplished, okay. LJ: And Stephanie felt she wanted to keep a social group -TP: I see, I see. LJ: -- which she did do, and I think that ran for two or three years, maybe four. TP: Okay. So -SB: It was just totally social? LJ: I think it was totally social, I don’t know. TP: So no more meetings? No more meetings at the church? LJ: We weren’t participating at that point, we were so burned out that we, we had to retreat. TP: And we had to rent an office, correct? In the church? LJ: We did, we rented -TP: Nominal, but we moved from a large room, when I first went, to a much smaller room -LJ: Yes, you did. TP: -- at the end, it was almost like a closet, it was -LJ: Yeah, the way [01:04:00] that that happened, this is interesting, the first room that we had there was quite small, a loft on the second floor, above the organ pipes. And eventually, we heard that the room across the way, which was huge -- 41 �TP: Correct. LJ: -- was for rent. So, we managed to snag that, and the rent was quite a bit, it was 75 bucks a month, or something like that. TP: That was a lot for us, that was a lot for us. LJ: A lot of money back then. SB: A lot back then. LJ: And so, we did subletting to -TP: Right, to psychiatrists, therapists. LJ: -- to a therapist. A wonderful woman who has passed on now. And so, she occupied it several days a week. And at one point, we had other people subletting from us, so that we were able to meet that huge figure of $75. TP: Well we had virtually no budget. SB: Well that was a lot of money back then. And if you were probably, what were you, charge-- asking people to donate 50 cents or a buck? LJ: Yeah, 50 cents [01:05:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Yeah. SB: Yeah. LJ: That’s the way we did it. TP: And we had no income, we weren’t doing fundraising, and -SB: Right. LJ: But we were a 501(c)3. TP: Yes, we were. 42 �LJ: Because of, I forget, we had a lawyer who came to us and somehow or other, managed to do that. Or somebody did it pro bono for us. So that we got 501(c)3. And that was really very important. TP: Yeah. So I stayed in, at least through the transition to people wanting to end because of the mission, to the last leadership. And then those social people weren’t really the people that I was seeing, so. LJ: Yeah. And we had to put it to bed anyway, where we had several meetings, and Mary Ann was very active in this, we wrote up a questionnaire of what people would want, what they think we should do, and then ultimately, [01:06:00] we -- there are barrels of material over at the Schlesinger, and there was some material in New York City, the film. [The film was done in Allston at the house of a DOB member. At least ten women were there, talking about raps, DOB activities, and the history of DOB.] And then there’s some material at the History Project in Boston, so. We have... SB: Lois, do you have any more questions? LJ: I was wondering if I had any more. SB: Or any more stories, Tracy? TP: I’ve told enough. LJ: I think, and I think you have intuitively said this, but maybe you, unless you have some other things you’d like to say about other activities, could you sum up for us what way DOB was helpful to you? You’ve already said it, but [01:07:00] maybe you’d like to crystalize it? TP: Okay, sure. Why DOB was helpful to me? What role it played? LJ: In what way, what role it played. TP: Sure. Well -- 43 �LJ: And how you feel about it today. TP: -- for many years, I was drawn to women, but it was just one woman here, one woman there, there was no sense of community, in other words, I was isolated. And when I found DOB, I found a community. I could be myself, I mean part of myself. I could be myself, I could start contributing to something that was bigger than myself. To give to something, to say you can count on me to do this newsletter. (laughter) LJ: Yeah, yeah, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: You can count on me to be at these raps, you can count on me to be, to -- what did I say, do the newsletter, show up. LJ: Yeah. [01:08:00] That’s wonderful, because that’s what it was meant to do, it sure did it for us. TP: It was a bridge. LJ: For us. TP: For me it was a bridge. LJ: Yeah. TP: And if I hadn’t crossed that bridge there, I still would be isolated. LJ: Yeah, you would be. TP: And I wrote down here that Lois and Sheri were really, you were role models for all of us, Lois and Sheri. You were role models for us. Look, you had professions, and you know, you were out there, literally. LJ: We were though, God forbid we -- that anybody knew -TP: You were -LJ: -- at work or any other place. TP: You were role models for all of us. Thank you so much. 44 �LJ: I don’t take that, you know, I appreciate what you’re saying. But what we always tell everybody is when we got active, it was because we felt we needed to, and the both of us got more [01:09:00] from the group than the group, the group gave to us, because it was just wonderful to have this, it was just like you, we knew a lot of people, but there was no community. There was no way of connecting, and there were these large gaps, and all sorts of ways that you tried to fill that gap, and DOB filled that gap for us. TP: Yes, it did. LJ: As it filled it for you. TP: Yes. LJ: And for, I hope, hundreds of other women. TP: Sure. But what I’m saying is that you led the way. I’m a role model for a lot of people who came after me, and I know that, and I accept that. But someone leads the way. LJ: That’s true. Yeah. TP: And we’re looking, we’re going down a path, and -LJ: And I was -TP: -- there’s, some people are there first. LJ: That’s right. We were there first, and I do like to lead. TP: Leo! LJ: (laughter) I’m a Leo, that’s why I said [01:10:00] to you, as Shari always said, “Oh God, not again.” So, thank you. SB: Well I just have to say, this has been a remarkable interview. Thank you both very, very much. LJ: Thank you. 45 �TP: I have one other comment here, just at the end, I’m seeing this. I said DOB, this is to go back to your question, Lois, what DOB did for me. How I benefited, is that it was always there, and it was always a safe space. So even when I was out in the world, and being terrified -LJ: It was a safe pace. TP: -- that I would lose my job, I knew there was a place where I was safe. LJ: Could go. TP: And it was important in those days. It was -LJ: That was very, very important. TP: I mean these young women today just don’t have any concept -LJ: They have no concept! TP: No. And that’s fine. LJ: You know, getting married to a wonderful woman, and they can say it, I met a wonderful, I’m going to get married, you know, [01:11:00] and I’m -- she’s going -- we’re doing, we’re going to adopt, or we’re going to have -- she wants to have a child. You know, and you say, yes? TP: Yeah. LJ: Oh my God. (laughter) Really? . TP: We’ve come a long way, and it hasn’t been that many years, really, when you look at it, you’re talking about 1969 to 2017. It’s not that -LJ: I know, I know. It hasn’t been that long. TP: And look at the evolution. LJ: Yeah. Well -TP: The changes. 46 �LJ: -- we were, I’ll tell you a little story about, maybe you’ve heard this from us before, from Sheri. Where we had the germ for DOB come from, well it came, as I said, from Jan Chase. This was 1967 or 1968. And we had met Jan through an ad that we put in the Want Advertiser, if you can believe it. SB: What? TP: I’ve heard this. LJ: The Want Advertiser. SB: The Want Advertiser? LJ: The Want Advertiser, yeah. But [01:12:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) we met her through a, we didn’t put it in, but another woman who lived in Littleton had put it in, saying nothing about lesbians, but just something about music, or this, or that, but we could read between the lines. TP: Right. LJ: So we said, let’s go. So we replied, and we went. And we met Jan. And Jan was a lovely woman. And Jan worked for Houghton-Mifflin, very intelligent woman, very nice person. Anyway, we had a good friendship going. She had a camp, a little house up in Acton. So one day, she invited us to come up for supper. So we drove up Route 119 or whatever it was. TP: Yeah, 119. LJ: One nineteen, and we went to supper, and there were woods all around, and she served a nice dinner which she made, and [01:13:00] there was a fireplace, and we were sitting in front of the fireplace with the fire going, and she said, “Well, Lois and Sheri, I’ve invited you because I want to ask you a question. Would you be willing, with me, to start the first DOB chapter in Boston?” And Sheri, at that point, went (makes noise);(laughter) She wasn’t worried for herself, she was worried for me. Because I think she was, she was self-employed at that point. I think she’d gone 47 �into the framing business. And I sort of hesitated and shouldn’t really have hesitated, because I was working at WGBH, which God knows, had more gay men than God, you know; all of the announcers with deep, wonderful voices were very gay. And so, but she sat there saying, “I’m sorry Jan, we can’t do that [01:14:00] because, you know, Lois’s job would be in peril, and we can’t afford it, we just bought a house,” you know? So we said we’re sorry, but we can’t. So, but she went ahead and did it by herself. And she attracted a lot of people, most of whom were not very nice, some of whom were okay. But when they had their first election after a year of organizing, they pushed her out, so Jan never, some other person just took over, and you know, it was one of those like survival of the fittest type people. SB: Bullying. LJ: There was some nasty, nasty, nasty people at that time. (laughter) And so, she, her name has never really been given the credit it should have been. But Jan passed away about, oh, 25 years ago, I think. One of the reasons why we were so attracted to DOB was that there was no alcohol; you didn’t have to go to a bar. I was brought up in a religion that said you absolutely don’t drink. You don’t smoke. And I also, my identification with being lesbian, of course, was a taboo word, being a gay woman in those days was that I had a great affection and attraction to women. And I didn’t think of myself as somebody hulking around in big boots, and pushing people around, and being a nasty son of a bitch, which a lot of these people were at that time. Which is not to condemn them, I mean they had a hard time of life. I’m sure they were kicked around by their families, by their jobs, and having a real hard time. [01:16:00] But so that’s where our identification came. We said, you know, I used a mantra, which I have always used in my life, from the time I was in high school, when I first began to say, something’s going on here. And it’s sort of a self-serving little mantra. “Make yourself accessible to experience.” 48 �And some of it will be good, and some of it will be bad. And if you had a reasonable human being, you’ll survive, and you’ll get what you need, and what you want. So that’s where I stood. And that’s how we came to it. And the two of us, you know, just said we’re going to do this. And I’ve been blessed by God with the ability [01:17:00] to lead things. SB: Yes. LJ: It’s always been my, I’m an administrator. It’s just in my blood, I like to do that, I like to be with people, I like to do stuff with people. I like to give people [the opportunity to go ahead and do something on their own], but bring them back in, you know, to help them to do stuff if I can. And that’s the way I ran DOB. I’ll always remember the women who came up the stairs once, and they -- God knows where they were from, but it was a couple, obviously, in their fifties or whatever, they came up the stairs, and came up to one of the raps, and they were coming a little (inaudible). And they had a wonderful, you know, all sorts of ideas. And I said, this is wonderful, yes these are great ideas. They said, “Well, I think that you should be doing these,” and I said, “oh, that’s wonderful, we’d love to do it.” And I said, “Would one of you like to take response--” “Oh, we can’t do that.” (laughter) [01:18:00] And I said, “Well thank you very much, we’ll consider your ideas.” “But you should be doing this,” and I’m saying, “Well (inaudible) you’re doing this.” And that’s the style of leadership -TP: Yes, yes. Yes. LJ: -- they have to have. You cannot do it all yourself. TP: Can I add just one tiny little story? LJ: Yes. SB: Yes you may. 49 �TP: It’s not about DOB, it’s about high school. And I had this motor-- moped. And I grew up in Belmont, and I discovered a drugstore near Wal-Lex, in Waltham. You know, I was 16 years old, and I would drive out to the drugstore, and look at their paperback books, because I discovered they had lesbian novels out there. I don’t know how I figured -SB: The pulp? TP: Yes! Ann Bannon, and I would, you know, go -SB: Oh my God! TP: -- get the book, and then [01:19:00] I’d be afraid to pay for it, because I, you know, somebody would say something to me. But I did, I still have them. LJ: “We walk alone through Lesbos’ lonely groves.” TP: Oh, I have them all. (laughter) SB: Can I borrow them? I’ve never read one. LJ: Oh my God. SB: Well -TP: We were desperate. Okay. SB: -- this is the power of oral history, that’s all I’ve got to say. LJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughter) That was a wonderful interview, thank you, thank you, thank you Tracy. TP: Oh well, I hope it’s useful. SB: I think this concludes our time. Would you sign -- would you sign this release form that says that this interview can go into The History Project, that you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? TP: Will I see -- yeah, I have, I’ve been down there, and I’ve seen -SB: Oh, you’ll see it. 50 �TP: Will I see this before anything, you know, if there’s anything in there -SB: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yes. TP: -- that I’m nervous about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) subsequently, a name, or? SB: Definitely. TP: Because I don’t want to [01:20:00] out anybody. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) TP: Not that I would, but you never know. Yes, so you’ll show me something. Okay. SB: Yes, we will. TP: Signature. END OF TRACY POWERS FILE 51 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Powers, Tracy Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tracy Powers, 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-20 Description An account of the resource Interview with Tracy Powers for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Powers, Tracy; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/2cf455734ea63ffebda572534eb366e1.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=MKBOgSuOtTP6VEMsanXZh-AeLSkXC1QCpR2ngrvQcdmaJzRkNEaFw0FOxMXevg0r-AZUAuZzDfysNHJ0PW-YTg8FbWH7BAQdzY1RsGH6jFem4ao4BDV4NjrEawQvbZ3%7E0gsMKQoGUiEE9yKb-L8mtZfD3tcKNGoCIcw6lOyLDwNfYtaoxnWgLXU6BOVkxWJWsgBPFofEy6SJ60ULds0qaovVZsnxRbYutdsWKxfsMVu3N5ZyI4OJhKxmbQVzU6egH0mUv18pz5KFZ1KPu2LQbRS%7EqeZ%7EmgGByvQy3q4LIXsYSX6t8p2bkh005ncUhEChvIrV05MlxS%7E4bCCGhy6ONA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 186ccfe0c0a65acea858c04e81ac466d https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/0f871fa10211cb2f74a640da7713b934.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ielpK9xy-08KFeZmHFSFUfVq4rHY%7ERlRpU0Ozvjv%7EYFL5FsxVRmPjwHXF0XGhvFx99BWJFZ5X59qTf4JWBB6R2FQM8WNwOMoOB%7Ed8lB0DJzCeACacNdID65NGL%7EQLuyLVv88hh7d6dLzsWW%7EeMan2klgj6YnI77bl2xx61tz8ojZlStjp5DVZde7TBU9EWXfALLGOZrfuHHJjF9HJi2%7EZRd2NGH4%7E7RoTRvy-I%7EJf-DSrSXKEdfm72xyRoK4Qeg00-2HQoXJl5MYnWNemqn93x4XO8kMSwT7P-fxypIgfDGMpHVK5pWClDnuKhKrrO-TUfyN-gsT2IrMnRbetVNb%7Ew__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM f239c81d7d348072dbd0d7bd134158c4 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Mary Leno Interviewer: Sarah Boyer April 22, 2019 �SARAH BOYER Today is April 22nd, 2019, and I’m with Mary Leno in her beautiful house on Franklin -MARY LENO: In the cellar. SB: -- Street, in the cellar at 240 Franklin Street. Mary, it’s good to be doing this with you. Where did you grow up? ML: I grew up -- what was a small town called Ipswich, Mass. There were maybe 7,000 people. And my father worked for the town and knew a lot of the people in the town. SB: I’ll bet. I’ll bet. I mean, those were the days when there were townies, right? ML: Right. SB: Yeah. ML: Exactly. And he was. SB: Yep. ML: He grew up in the town. SB: Wow. What about his parents? ML: His mother -- [00:01:00] I don’t really know the history of the family very well. But his mother was from Nova Scotia and his father was from that area, too, and he crossed over -- believe it or not, he was in the Civil War. SB: Wait a minute. ML: My brother has a huge frame of his discharge from the Civil War. SB: You’re talking about your grandfather? ML: I certainly am. SB: That is incredible. 1 �ML: I know it. (laughs) SB: My God! I mean, did your grandfather live to be -- how old was he when he -ML: I don’t know how old he was when he died. But he had 13 kids -SB: Wow! ML: -- and 11 of them were girls, women, and all of those women died of TB. SB: Oh, Jesus. [00:02:00] When was that? It must have been in the late 1800s or something? ML: Early 1900s. SB: Yeah, wow. But the boys -ML: The boys -- my father -SB: -- yeah. ML: -- and he had a stepbrother. So, my grandfather was married twice. SB: OK. ML: And his stepbrother did not live in Ipswich when I was growing up. He lived in Boston and then, when he got older, retired in rural Maine. SB: Oh, OK. So, you didn’t really have too much contact with him. ML: No, the contact I had with my family was basically on my mother’s side. SB: Oh, OK. So, tell me about your mother’s family. ML: My mother had a brother who was an alcoholic and had 13 children. And she had two sisters and she was very close [00:03:00] to the sisters. We would spend holidays together. SB: Nice. I mean, were they, like -- were you close to them, too? ML: I never felt really close to them because, you know, I was raised ‘children should be heard - no, children should --’ 2 �SB: ‘Seen and not heard’. ML: -- ‘be seen and not heard’. And I was really part of that. I was a very quiet kid. SB: Wow. ML: And so, I didn’t interact a lot with them. SB: Why, because they’d have their adult conversation and you -ML: Exactly. SB: -- weren’t part of it? ML: Yeah, and they would ask you a question, which was pretty much a yes or no answer, so -SB: (laughs) Right. ML: -- it’s hard to -- and they didn’t live in Ipswich. So, it wasn’t kind of a drop-in -- we -- I would only see them on holidays, so that’s -- three holidays a year I would see them. SB: Yeah. Now, did you say she had brothers, too, your mother? [00:04:00] ML: She had one brother. SB: Oh, one brother, OK. Was he -- was she close to him or -ML: No, he -- because he had so many kids and my mother was a very particular kind of woman in terms of children, they never came to visit. Maybe once or twice I remember them coming and it was, “Don’t touch that, don’t open that door,” so nobody felt welcome. Actually, neither did I or neither did my brother, (laughter) which is sad to say but true. SB: That must have been hard. ML: Was hard. And my brother acted out incredibly. SB: Could he get away with it -ML: No. SB: -- though? 3 �ML: No. SB: No. ML: He was always punished and he never seemed to learn. SB: Yeah, he just kept acting out. But you were -ML: Like, I melted into the woodwork. [00:05:00] SB: Right, right. ML: And as soon as I could be somewhat independent, I would leave as soon as I could. The meals, after dinner, after the dishes, I would leave until I had to come home again at night. I always managed to go someplace. SB: Even when you were a little kid? ML: Well, as soon as I could get some distance -SB: Yeah, OK. ML: When I was a little kid, I was out in the yard or out in the street, where they could see me. But as I got older, I would go visit friends and ride my bicycle. That was the most freeing part of my childhood. SB: Yeah, I could imagine. But so, what about your father, though? Did you have a better relationship with him, do you think? ML: Yes, I did. He was very passive and he was very mild towards me. But my mother would get upset with my brother and yell at my father to do something, [00:06:00] and my father would go into these rages. So, it was not pleasant. SB: He’d go into these rages to -- because -ML: I don’t know why. You know, he felt pressured to do something. SB: Yeah, yeah. 4 �ML: I found him scary in -- on those moments. SB: I can imagine. But would you say you had -- like, would he show you things to do? ML: No, but -SB: You know what I’m saying? ML: No, but he would do -- he did all the errands that needed to be done and he did them on Saturdays. And I would often go with him to do all the errands. SB: Yep. ML: Grocery shopping or whatever. In those days, they didn’t have a checking account, so paying bills at the drugstore, wherever there were bills that were owed. SB: Yep. What about boy [00:07:00] things? ML: Boy things? SB: Well, you know what I mean? Like, did he show you how to make something or -ML: No, he never did. SB: He never did any of that. ML: He didn’t do that with my brother, either. SB: No. ML: He was not, like, “Oh, children need to be taught.” That was not a concept either of them had. SB: Wow. It’s interesting. ML: Did you have parents that did that? SB: Yeah, when they weren’t fighting. (laughter) ML: That’s nice during those years, huh? SB: The ’50s -- well, ’50s for me. 5 �ML: ‘40s for me. SB: ‘40s, yeah. Late ’40s. ML: Well, I was born in 1940. SB: Oh, OK, OK. So, I’m just thinking of -- what was the town like? I mean, like, can you describe it? ML: Well, downtown [00:08:00] was just a few stores that had been there forever. There was a clothing store, there was the First National grocery store. And many years later, like, when I was probably 12 or something, the A&P moved in. Remember the A&P? SB: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. ML: And there was an electrical appliance kind of place where you’d buy your refrigerator or your washing machine, which you went to once every 14 years. SB: (laughs) Right. ML: So, it was a quiet little town. And Ipswich has beautiful beaches. So, it was famous for its beach. And there was the Crane estate, which is also a famous structure, a castle, which was torn down because his wife did not like the first castle that was built. [00:09:00] So it was torn down and rebuilt to her liking. But Crane was very generous to the town. He had some friends down for dinner and leaving to go back to wherever they lived, they got in an automobile accident and one of them died. SB: Wow. ML: And there was no hospital in the town at the time. And he built a hospital for the town. And also, he -- Mr. Crane left in his estate money to send public school kids on a picnic down to the beach free, with a lunch, every year. SB: Nice. 6 �ML: So all the kids and me included and my brother, looked forward to that particular day. SB: Yeah, I can imagine. ML: Except I used to get wicked sunburns. So, I always paid a price for that wonderful day. [00:10:00] SB: So, Mom didn’t give you any -ML: Well, I (inaudible) SB: There really wasn’t any -- well, there was Coppertone. ML: Well, they came out a little later, I think. SB: OK. ML: I don’t think it was around when I was, like, in the -SB: Yeah, probably not. ML: -- first couple of years. SB: Yeah. ML: It -- they had -- after you got the sunburn, you would have something to put on, whether it was vinegar or something to cool it. I don’t remember what it was. SB: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Did you spend a lot of time at the beach? ML: No, my mother thought that was for lazy rich people. SB: Oh, God. ML: So I never got to do the beach. SB: You mean in the summer you weren’t there? ML: Right. SB: Not even once a week? 7 �ML: No, never. However, my father bought a wood lot. I don’t know, do you know about wood lots? SB: No. ML: People used to buy [00:11:00] areas that were like forests for wood burning, for heat. SB: Yep. ML: And so, when -- early, I guess, in the marriage -- I don’t know the real background on this, but he bought this wood lot for $15 in Ipswich, which was a couple miles from the house. And he had a little primitive camp built on this wood lot. And down at the bottom of the hill was a crick. And it was a tidal crick, so the tide came in and out. SB: Yep. ML: And we could swim in that. And, like, for a week, we would stay there. And so I would swim there. But I never felt comfortable in that [00:12:00] crick because there were bloodsuckers and there were turtles from the sea that came in -SB: Wow! ML: -- snakes and turtles. SB: Jesus! (laughs) God! ML: So, it was not fun. SB: Leeches? Any leeches around? ML: Well, that’s a blood sucker. SB: Yeah, blood sucker. Oh, God! I mean, like, did you get -ML: And it was an outhouse. I have hated camping, any idea of camping because of that friggin’ outhouse. We were so far from town that the -- we didn’t even have electricity in the beginning. And my father -- 8 �SB: In the camp? ML: In the camp. SB: OK. ML: And my father worked for the electric department, which was kind of strange. Anyway, so to go to the outhouse was a scary adventure for me, especially on Saturday night when the FBI [00:13:00] weekly radio program was on. And at the end of the program, there was always some -- a wanted person (laughter) and they would describe the person. In that little short walk from the cabin to the outhouse, I was always sure that goddamn person was following me! So, I have never been fond of camping. SB: (laughs) God! I don’t remember that. (laughter) I -- see, well, I do remember the soap operas on the radio but that’s it. Anyway, wow. ML: And also, this damn little camp -- my brother and I both slept on the porch. It was like this thin but long porch. SB: Yeah. ML: And so, it was screened in, so when it rained or there were -- heavy fog, all the [00:14:00] damn blankets were moist or wet. I mean, it was the worst week in my life. (laughter) And those were happy times. (laughter) SB: Now, that was supposed to be your vacation, I guess. ML: Right, right. SB: But what were you doing when you weren’t in school and you -- and it’s the summer and it was hot, and you couldn’t go to the camp? ML: (laughs) Well, by the time -- I think when I was in the fifth grade, we got a TV, so I would come home and watch television. But my mother was a nurse and she worked nights. 9 �When I was young, she worked at the shipyard. There was a shipyard in Ipswich during the war. SB: Yeah. ML: But then, she would get private cases that lasted for years. I don’t know how she ever found these old folks who had money that could pay her for years, [00:15:00] but she needed to sleep. If the TV was on too loud, she would get up and say, “It’s imperative” -(laughter) I’ll never forget hearing that word. (laughter) And after she’d go back and shut the bedroom door, I’d say, “It’s imperative!” SB: (laughter) God, oh, my God. Wow. Do you remember any of those shows that were on? These -- this was the first days of TV. ML: Yeah. Well, I remember Howdy Doody. And I was really too old to be watching the damn thing. It was, like, Clarabelle with this funny horn and Princess Winter Summer Fall Spring or whatever or -- (laughter) and the peanut gallery. (laughter) This guy in a silly rawhide type of suit. (laughter) But I would watch the damn thing. We never read. [00:16:00] We never had books in the house. SB: Really? ML: None of us read. My father would get the Globe every day. My father only went to the third grade. SB: OK. ML: So, you can see why he wouldn’t read. SB: Yeah. ML: But he would always look at the front page of the -- it wasn’t the Globe. It was The Boston Post. 10 �SB: Oh, OK. ML: So I was outside. SB: Basically, you were just outside. But you were, like -- by the time that, like, you were, like, maybe seven or eight, you were with your friends? ML: Yeah, yeah. Neighbors on the street had kids, younger than me. I was always the oldest but at least I was out talking. SB: Right. So that’s as far as you could go, though, right? ML: Yeah, in the beginning, right. SB: Yeah. Yeah, you had to wait till high school or whatever to go further afield? ML: Yeah. Not high school but seventh grade, sixth grade, whatever. SB: Right. ML: And one time, I fell off a porch [00:17:00] in my neighbor’s -- and I got a terrible scar all the way from my hip down to my -SB: Oh! ML: -- knee, on my leg. And my mother made me go show the neighbor the injury. And I was, like, “I’m not doing that! I am not going there and showing her that!” “Yes, you” -- you know, this yelling and pushing. “I’m going to watch to make sure you do that.” It was like -SB: What was the point? ML: I don’t know what -- I don’t know. But I said to the neighbor, “I’m so sorry but my mother’s making me come over and show you this.” So I don’t know if they ever conversed about it or -- I never -- but, you know, I was, like -- I was embarrassed for it because -- 11 �SB: I don’t blame you. ML: -- I fell! SB: No kidding! ML: It’s not like she had anything to do with it or it was their fault. SB: Yeah. ML: I fell, and it was a [00:18:00] nail or something that I -SB: Oh! ML: -- that, you know, a -- was sticking out. SB: Oh, Jesus. ML: But, you know, there’s no reason why she would have -- the neighbor would have known that. Anyway. SB: Was your mother -- I mean, sounds like she was pretty difficult -ML: She was very -SB: -- all the way through. ML: -- extremely -- or she could be totally pleasant, but it could change at any second. And my brother used to get sucked up in that pleasantness and think, oh, boy, this is good times. And I was always, like, oh, I wish you would hold back a little. SB: Right, right. You knew what was coming. ML: I knew it would change. SB: Yeah, yeah. ML: I didn’t know when or where. SB: Right! (laughs) ML: But I knew it -- this is not to be believed for any length of time. 12 �SB: But didn’t you have some cousins that lived up in that area? Or no? I thought you mentioned -ML: I did have a cousin in high school [00:19:00] that I would go for rides with. She was -- she got a license way before I did, and she used to like to go to Rockport, to the stores down there. SB: Yeah. ML: And I could smoke cigarettes. So, that was heaven for both of us. SB: Oh, God, yeah. ML: She went shopping, I smoked my lungs out. (laughter) SB: That’s great. Is she still up there? ML: I don’t know. I haven’t been in touch with her for years, so -SB: Oh, OK. ML: I think she’s still at -- you know, like, maybe in Newburyport or something. SB: Yeah, wow. ML: But I’m still in touch with one of my cousins from my mother’s side of the family. We get together regularly. SB: Oh, that’s good. ML: Yeah, I like her a lot. SB: Oh, good, good. ML: One of my uncle’s children. SB: Yeah, yeah. So there [00:20:00] was your brother and you. And did you have any feelings about girls when you were young? Did -ML: Well, yes. 13 �SB: -- what did you think about girls? ML: We had a babysitter and for some reason, we called her Aunt -- she was not related to us -but Aunt Dolores. SB: Yeah. ML: And my brother would talk about how much he liked her, and I knew I liked her equally. But I knew I shouldn’t be so effusive about how much I liked her. Somehow -- and I was a young -- I don’t think I was more -SB: How old? ML: -- than four. I mean, I was very young but I knew to be withdrawn about it for some reason. SB: That’s very interesting. ML: But then, I knew I was different, just from that incident, knowing I liked her as much as my brother did. [00:21:00] SB: Wow. And you were four and you knew that. ML: Oh, I don’t know how old I was, but (inaudible) SB: OK, but -ML: I was a youngster. SB: Yeah, yeah. So, when you were in school, did you, you know, sort of -ML: Oh, I had crushes galore. I had crushes up through college. And -SB: Yeah. ML: But I knew that it was not a pleasant thing to be different. SB: Did anybody ever say anything to you about -- were you very circumspect about your crushes? 14 �ML: What’s that mean? (laughs) SB: I mean, you had these crushes. ML: Right. SB: Did you ever try to follow through on any of them? ML: No. I was pretty withdrawn about that. [00:22:00] In high school, I did have a crush on somebody and we used to hold hands. And we were very close, and something happened with her and her mother because she was -- at the end of the school year, she was taken away. Changed schools. And I always felt that it was -- somehow the mother thought that we were too close. I never brought it up with her because I was too scared and I felt too guilty. SB: Yeah. ML: So, I don’t -SB: Did you spend a lot of time at her house? ML: Some, not a lot, because she lived in a different town than I did. SB: Oh, OK. ML: And because of my brother. [00:23:00] He influenced my life in funny ways. He was a behavior problem in kindergarten, which was brand new at the time. SB: Yeah. ML: He was actually expelled, and I was not allowed to go to kindergarten because -SB: Because of him? ML: Yeah, that’s -SB: Wow. ML: I mean, that was my mother’s thinking. She didn’t want to have me do that. 15 �SB: All right. ML: So I started school without even knowing how to write my name, you know? The teacher had to write my name on the board. I was the only one who didn’t know how to write. So school was always a problem with me, and I was always a poor student, one of the poorest in the class. One of the poorest. SB: Why was that? ML: Well, I think I was a slow starter [00:24:00] to begin with. When you can’t write, you’re on your own. I couldn’t read; I couldn’t write. Most kids at least could -SB: Well, you didn’t have anything to read at home, right? ML: Right, so I never learned any of that stuff. And then, in high school, eighth grade -- my brother was a behavior problem all through school. And my mother wouldn’t let me go to high school -SB: What? ML: -- in the town. So, I had to go to Salem, which was not my choice. But it worked out well because it was an all-girls school. I have to say I was (laughter) quite happy when I got there and realized, oh, boy! SB: Yeah! (laughter) What was her reasoning that -ML: Because -- [Ipswich] was a small town, and my brother had ruined the [00:25:00] Leno name. SB: Oh, she was afraid you’d be doing it, too. ML: Yeah. SB: Yeah, OK. ML: Well, she was afraid that I would be stigmatized. 16 �SB: Oh, OK. ML: I think. I don’t know. SB: OK. ML: She would never share any kind of information like that. SB: Yeah. So, wow, that must have been quite an experience. ML: Yeah. SB: Did you take the bus every day over there? ML: I took the train and a bus. But there were other people, other kids from the town. There were, like, four of us who did that, did that commute every day. SB: Yeah, that sounds exciting. ML: Well, it worked out nicely for me, except I couldn’t come out. I mean, that was painful, to be hiding it, but I don’t think anybody’s surprised that I am out. SB: So, OK, you couldn’t come out. Did you see girls there that you thought [00:26:00] were probably gay? ML: No, I never had that -- I knew I was attracted to them but I never felt like -- I guess I had a stereotype of what gay was like, who was gay. SB: What was the stereotype? ML: There was a woman in the parade -- every year, we had Memorial Day parade and there was a woman who was dressed as a cowgirl and people made fun of her. SB: Yep. ML: And I knew we were the same. And so, that was my stereotype. I was a tomgirl -- boy. Tomboy, I guess, was the term then. And I never saw anybody else that I thought, gee, 17 �she’s a tomboy, too. But I was definitely attracted to [00:27:00] some girls. And I told you the incident about the mother -SB: Right. ML: -- the friend and the mo-- and suddenly, she doesn’t come -- isn’t in school. SB: Yeah, yeah. But you were attracted to other girls besides the cowgirl. And so, these other girls were -- they looked like everybody else? ML: Yeah, yeah. We never -- there were no dykes. There was -- no dykes. Even in college, I never saw -- I never felt like there was a dyke. SB: Wow. So, there was -- you never went up to the cowgirl and started talking to her? ML: No, she was a lot older than I was. SB: OK, yeah, yeah. This -- I mean, do you feel like the -- it really impacted [00:28:00] you in high school? I mean, like, that it was really hard on you? ML: Oh, yeah. I knew -- I suffered. SB: Yeah. ML: I knew that I was different. And the little, innocent affection of holding hands and then suddenly, without anybody ever confronting me or talking about what happened -- that was a serious thing that happened. And it was, like, in my freshman year at high school, and she was gone the next year. SB: And you blamed yourself or you -ML: Well, I felt that it was a result of our relationship. I felt guilty. SB: You felt guilty. Did you feel guilty that you had these feelings -ML: Oh, yeah. SB: -- about girls? 18 �ML: Definitely. SB: Yeah, that you shouldn’t. ML: Right. SB: And is -- do you think that that -- I mean, to get a little [00:29:00] into this, (laughter) do you think a lot of this had to do with -- you were brought up Catholic, right? ML: Very much so. I went to a Catholic high school (inaudible) SB: So, it’s an all-girls Catholic high school. ML: And I went to an all-girls Catholic college. All women’s, I guess you could say, at college. SB: Do you think the guilt and how you were feeling about everything in high school had to do with -- a lot to do with the religion? ML: Oh, sure, because I knew it was wrong. SB: Did anybody say it was wrong in the church? Are you just -- that you knew it was wrong? ML: I knew it was wrong. I don’t remember ever hearing the word that would describe me. SB: Yeah. ML: But, you know, any kind of affection was wrong back then, even among boys [00:30:00] and girls. SB: Right. ML: So, I mean, it was very -SB: Well, you had to leave room for the Holy Ghost. (laughs) ML: It was a very repressive growing up period. SB: Right. 19 �ML: Era, I should say. (barking) [Bella], do you want to eat? All right, and then you’ll be quiet? (laughter) (pause) OK, kid. (pause) Do you want some more tea? [00:31:00] Or are you OK? SB: No, I’m OK. ML: You want some hummus? SB: Not right now, thanks. ML: OK. All right, so now we can get back to it. SB: Yeah, see, I never went through that until after college. So, I’m just thinking about how hard it must have been to feel like you were the only one with those feelings. And with no support. ML: Well, nobody had support for anything back then. SB: Well, true. ML: At least that was my experience. SB: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:00] So, why -- did you decide to go to an all-women’s college? ML: Well, here’s what happened: as I mentioned, I was a poor student. And the person who sat next to me was the smartest woman in the class and she said, “Well, what are you going to do next year?” And I said, “I don’t know.” And she said, “What about college?” I said, “I don’t think I could get in because I didn’t take the” -- I think they were SATs. SB: SATs, yeah. ML: And she said, “Well, that’s all right. I think we can still find a college that” -- those were new back then, or beginning, SATs as requirements for college. SB: OK. 20 �ML: And so, she found a small college. And she said, “Well, I think you can get in here.” [00:33:00] And so, she helped me fill out the application, which I never could have done by myself, and the references. And damn, I got in! SB: (laughs) When you say that, it sounds like you didn’t want to. ML: Well, I was afraid I wouldn’t, I’d -- I wouldn’t pass. And I got in on condition. Every semester through high school and college, I was on condition. SB: What did that mean? ML: Means if you didn’t do -- pass, you were out. SB: Oh, my God! ML: Get minimum pass. SB: Yeah. ML: So, that’s the kind of schooling I had. I hated school. I hated the pressure at those times. SB: Yep. ML: My brother was terrible in school and he would make me hide my report card because he didn’t want to have the unveiling with the parents. [00:34:00] (laughter) SB: Right! ML: Neither did I, actually. (laughter) Mine was better. SB: Yeah. ML: At least I was a C-minus kind of person. (laughter) He wasn’t even there. So, yeah, so, no, I didn’t -- I never saw myself as college material. And we were not a college kind of family. We never talked about college. SB: But your mother had to go on to something. ML: Well, she did go on to nursing school, yeah. 21 �SB: Yeah. ML: But she was never academically inclined, although her vocabulary -- you know, imperative. (laughs) SB: Right. ML: So, those kinds of words she would throw around every so often, but in general she was working -- very working class. SB: Yeah. ML: Her father worked in the leather factories. She grew up in Peabody and her father worked in a factory. And he died young of bathtub gin. [00:35:00] So, we were a real low-class family in a way. We never saw ourselves as -- I don’t know what the word would be. SB: So, you didn’t have much confidence? ML: (laughs) Would say none. SB: What happened, though? I mean, like, the fact that you did -- I mean, you were able to go to college. Did that change things a little bit for you? ML: Well, it didn’t give me confidence. I felt like people sort of cared, you know? Felt like I was not a bad kid. And I passed -- a lot of that, I felt like I passed on that sense. Certainly not, “She’s got a bright [00:36:00] future ahead.” (laughs) SB: It must have felt good, though, if people cared about you. ML: Yeah. Yeah, when I was a freshman, the nun who was sort of the head of the freshman class, she cared about me, and I could feel that. SB: Yeah. ML: I didn’t feel it so much in college, but that was important to me. SB: Yeah, yeah. Did you live there or did you commute? 22 �ML: In college? SB: Yeah. ML: No, I lived there. SB: Good. ML: Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, I know. (laughter) It was damn good. SB: Any -- did you feel like maybe you could loosen up a little bit and maybe have a different kind of relationship with another woman? ML: Well, I certainly went on having crushes throughout my [00:37:00] existence. And I did have a relationship with somebody in my senior year. Yeah. So, OK, then I went on to Social Work [school], which was the same thing. A friend of mine -SB: Wait a minute. You were able to get into Social Work [school]? ML: (laughs) Yeah, but I’m going to tell [00:40:00] you why -SB: All right. ML: -- how. SB: Sorry. ML: After college, I didn’t know what I was going to do. SB: Yeah. ML: So, I really wanted to go. It was the summer of going down South and working to register voters. I wanted to do that. SB: Yeah. ML: But I was scared to death I would be found out and I’d be killed. SB: You’d be found out that you were a lesbian. ML: Yeah. 23 �SB: OK. ML: And so, rather than do that -- and I wanted to join the Peace Corps but I knew I couldn’t learn a foreign language. My God, I had taken French for eight years. I couldn’t get much beyond bonjour. (laughter) SB: Right. ML: So, the Peace Corps was out for me. So these priests came along [00:41:00] at an assembly and they were from the Southwest. And they were looking for volunteers for one year to work in a rural part of the country to do a census of the area, which was a large area -rural Kansas. And so, I signed up for it because I didn’t know what the hell to do. And I actually loved being out in Kansas. It was like a different -- totally different country. You know, I had been in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine. That was, like, the extent of my travel. One time, I went to New York for a weekend to visit somebody in the college who became a nun. So seeing all these farmers [00:42:00] and, you know, just asking if -- what religion they were and did they ever go to the Catholic Church? I mean, I wasn’t trying to convert anybody. It was just statistical information, really. But getting to know them was wonderful. And there was one family -- he worked for the post office, and she was divorced. Maybe they were both divorced. And she was a nervous wreck. I think when they married, she had become a Catholic and she was a nervous wreck that she was going to go to hell because she was divorced. SB: Right. ML: And I thought this is the craziest religion (laughter) that would make people feel like they were going to go to hell because they made a mistake in a relationship. So it was the very beginning of my thinking: what the hell [00:43:00] am I doing in this crazy religion and 24 �representing it? So wasn’t long after I got to -- so, anyway, I was very close to the woman who was my age. And she was with me during that year. And she thought I should go to social work school, which I never even heard of, frankly. SB: Yeah. ML: So she arranged for me to get -- have a meeting with somebody from her school while I was in Kansas, while we were in Kansas. And the woman said to me, “Now can you talk about how” -- I don’t even remember the saint -- St. Thomas’s philosophy or St. Anthony’s philosophy [00:44:00] “will help you in social work.” St. Thomas Aquinas, I think. I said, “Gee, I really don’t know what his philosophy is.” So, I didn’t get into that school. And so, I think she even helped me apply to BC. And I must have had an interview. I don’t even remember it. And so, I got into BC on condition, because of my grades. So, I lived in a settlement house in Roxbury and I was so happy there. SB: Wow. ML: And I was also miserable because now I’m back in a coed setting. SB: Yeah. ML: And I started dating this guy but, you know, I was miserable. I hated it, and I went into therapy about falling in love [00:45:00] with women, and they turn around and get married. And so, the therapist said to me, “I don’t see why you wouldn’t get married.” So I would talk about dating and how I didn’t want to do that and he said, “Why don’t you have a few drinks before you go out” or “a few drinks” -SB: It was a he, right? ML: Course it was. SB: Yeah. 25 �ML: So, I developed a drinking habit that I had for years. And then, I got involved with Betty... I realized -- no, that was even before Betty. I realized that I needed to stop drinking. So, I stopped drinking for 10 years. And once Stonewall happened, I thought, shit, I’m getting out of social work because in social work school, we had case studies: one was the [00:46:00] mailman who had homosexual tendencies. I thought for Christ’s sakes, (laughter) this is ridiculous. (laughter) And also, it was a Catholic school and they talked -- the dean of the school talked about how suffering made sense if you understood the mystical body of Christ. And I was, like, what? (laughter) And so, I hated social work school, you know? SB: Did you? ML: Well, it had a directory -- homosexuality was a disease. I mean, it was -SB: Was it in the DSM, yeah? ML: Yeah, well -SB: How did you end up in the settlement house in Roxbury? ML: That was another thing: I asked a friend if they knew how I could find a cheap place to live in Boston. “I know a settlement house in Roxbury that you might like.” [00:47:00] And so, I applied, I got accepted, and I did like it. I loved it. I loved the community. I stayed there long after I should’ve. Long after graduation when, you know, you usually exit out. But, you know, the requirements -- was that you devoted so many hours to the community and I loved doing that. And they were never -- I left because of -- when Martin Luther King was shot, there were -- there had been rumors leading up to it that they were going to -- somebody was going to blow up the Pru building and -- anyway, 26 �then there were fires that began, and the Norfolk House was really a wooden -- ready to be -- it was a scary -SB: Was a firetrap, maybe? ML: -- [really?] -- yeah. So, they moved all the residency -- they closed the residency, and now [00:48:00] it’s a condo. That building is condos, so -- but anyway, the guy that I was dating was in -- lived there, too. So, it was very easy for us to always see each other. And, you know, I feel very guilty about that relationship because I feel like he was, unfortunately, used by me to pass or try to be straight or something. And I think he thought we were going to be a couple. And I feel like he was, unfortunately, hurt in my coming out process, which hadn’t happened because Stonewall was still to come. So, as soon as Stonewall did come -- and I think about him a lot. I hope he’s OK. [00:49:00] I hope he found a relationship and has kids, and he’s OK. So once Stonewall came, I thought I am getting out of social work, and I am starting a new life. And that’s when I came out. Kind of late, but I got there. So, did you mean to have such a long story? (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, sure. SB: I did. I knew it would happen. So tell me about how that happened, what happened, and -ML: So I came out and I went to several DOB meetings but I never felt comfortable. I never was, like, part of the network, [00:50:00] in a way, with DOB, and it was my fault because I didn’t really know who I was or how to be me. But I did remember several happy occasions with DOB, whether it was book readings of lesbian authors or Thanksgiving, which was a wonderful -SB: Oh, yeah. 27 �ML: I loved that, that friendship. And then, I went -- the Women’s Center sort of filled the spot that DOB should have filled for me. And I joined a CR [consciousness raising] group at the Women’s Center and it was a -- you know, it was a group -- the same group each week, and I just felt I was able to fit in better [00:51:00] there. And I will always love the Women’s Center. I think those days were so great and so important to me and to a lot of other women. SB: Right. But did you meet some women at DOB? Because, I mean, there were quite a few women. I mean, it was pretty big. ML: Well, Laura McMurry stands out, as well as Barbara Webber. SB: Yeah. ML: Other women -- I don’t remember their names and -SB: You -- did you go to any of the raps that they had? ML: Oh, yeah. SB: Yeah. What were they like for you? I mean, like, did -ML: Well, the -- often, they were different women. So, you know, it was like we were beginning each week all over again. SB: Yeah. ML: Whereas the CR groups at the Women’s Center were the same women who came every week for as long as the CR group [00:52:00] got started. SB: So, you felt like you could get closer to people. ML: I did get closer to people. SB: (laughs) Yeah. 28 �ML: In fact, one of the women in the CR group was involved with someone named Betty. And Joanna, who was the woman, used to have a group of people over for Christmas. Not Christmas Day, but a Christmas among us. SB: Yeah. ML: And Betty would come to these meetings, and so that went on for many years. And Betty and I ended up becoming partners, and we were [00:53:00] together for 19 years. And some of those years, Betty was unhappy with her job and her situation. And she developed breast cancer and nine years later, she had a recurrence that was really -- it came upon her quickly and it was very -- I don’t know what the word was, but it -SB: It spread? ML: Yeah. And so, Betty wanted to separate -- well, she wanted to stay -- live together but not to be a couple anymore. And this was before she had the recurrence. And I felt like we should be -- it would be easier if we were clearer that we weren’t a couple by not living together. [00:54:00] And I proposed that to her and fortunately for me, she chose to leave because I had had the apartment before she -- we got together, which I thought was very generous of her. She was always very generous, actually. And soon after that, then she had a recurrence and that’s -- it didn’t take long. And she had a hard time. She tried -she -- there was no drug or therapy that she wouldn’t try to -- she just could not accept that she was going to die from this, soon. So -- but I was able to tell her how important she had been to me and how much I loved her. [00:55:00] And I’m still in touch with her because she has a niece and a nephew. And I have her cat still. SB: You still have her cat. How old is the cat? ML: Well, Betty died in 2004 and the cat was probably two. 29 �SB: OK, wow. ML: So, what is that? Sixteen at least. SB: Yeah. ML: Yeah. [00:56:00] And I’ve never dated since and haven’t wanted to, either. SB: Because? ML: Well, I dated before Betty and I just never felt connected. But with Betty, I knew that I wanted to share my life with her. And I’ve just never felt that way since. I don’t even -I don’t feel lonely. I don’t feel like I need to be in a partnership or a relationship. [00:57:00] SB: Would you say all your friends are lesbians or -ML: No. SB: No. ML: No, not at all. SB: No. ML: But most of them. SB: Most of them, yeah. ML: The ones I feel closest to. SB: Right, right, yeah. ML: Although I have a childhood friend that I feel close to. And she had seven children. (laughter) Still the Catholic theme there. SB: Yeah. ML: And one of her children is a lesbian, so we certainly share that commonality. But we -Paula is her name. Paula really had a great influence on me. We used to go -- we were in 30 �Girl Scouts -- Brownies together and Girl Scouts together. And then, [00:58:00] for a brief period of time, there was Sea Scouts, because we lived right on the ocean. SB: I belonged to that for a year. ML: Did you? Yeah, I think it only lasted a year, it -SB: I think so. ML: -- I don’t think it’s still around. SB: No. ML: Anyway, so Crane Beach comes up again. There used to be a lighthouse there, and they would have times where the Girl Scouts or the Sea Scouts could stay overnight. And so, the group of us stayed overnight and one day, we were walking on the beach and it was like a -- had been raining or it was a foggy day. Nobody was on -- at the beach. And she came across, like, 85 cents and she shared it with me. Really changed my life. SB: What do you mean? ML: I don’t know. I’d [00:59:00] never -- nobody had ever been that generous to me. I was a kid. And I just -- I felt like -- I don’t know. Whatever generosity there is about me I relate to that. SB: I think you try to hide your generosity. Doesn’t work. ML: Well, I relate it to that incident. SB: Yeah. ML: And I’ve told her. [01:00:00] SB: Going to make me cry, Mary. What do you think? ML: I think it’s time to stop. SB: I do, too. Thank you. [01:00:23] 31 �END OF MARY LENO FILE 32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Leno, Mary Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Leno, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04-22 Description An account of the resource Interview with Mary Leno for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Leno, Mary; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/757cb386f4be085b014b09f036f35f15.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=BVYYNilkRqJhYKLIqnVJnbieYewgVGFc7fNlInU7LkW5kcKhrcof5y1acGMHqNMmxRqD%7EXtiVjk6xTmbC285Ik7KKhhsRb3HCw2fAkVYJHziq8vWnvJrlg2BXpb-X2ZuBPm%7Ee2JTxhUrwc7NA2Vwqk6Q0DB0DMIoCCjQ4iIWrYfRBRN0cGP2wZMbRt01lYoUvmjjfmKTfQ7TiQLIz8lZQx%7EjdM-bWVI-cT8yp7c%7EXeLr%7EOYPBoP8RGsfPh85e1Q3C5N13YdLoRIvbN-AkNHYaj6ZJN1yJwAjgWwUmDOuNIlquazIVf2sCtZiKJw0%7EYk4C7OV30%7EXMEpJbaonfmccSg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ecc729d41ea7ac1235d3fca4c9b809b6 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/f924e0c5cda38d9faaea6701335a1f5c.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ZmSL9YmWr5omnjTLkTqHh1TJs9GJHyJ5huClUy08wT3m4LrQ0i3F4en%7EaT4NX9LLxTqEQVr-lYpDlu8buCOdlsDw2olr%7EUWJpe0IpifjJOs-oeEAKWkzFZDqCpZIAOehXFgWpXHsPJszMIpmxPI73gEs4doDV7NXAWOh8BpiRkiNaPFBmM0o298%7EDqRLpMV35YWkUBr6JFVpH5sX0lIJiom7U7RPaQ5GI0WIuKePzFOyOiMN59A5pssg1%7EIqQO8AO5Yh7lAqbAfduh8d1uGQ7ISAxVFWAsjopvuMf-3ccUhuy4rRx%7EKOMJOILjmnLi1ddydHuETP0xQdq7hyijTxRQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM d3f9e8db7d4682de54bb7986f97a8a9e PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Lois Johnson and Sheri Barden Interviewers: Sarah Boyer, Laura Catanzaro June 29, 2018 �SARAH BOYER: Okay. Today is June 29th, 2018. And I’m at the home of Lois Johnson and Sheri Barden. Is it all right to call you Sheri? SHERI BARDEN: I hope. I put down Claire, I don’t know why, but -- LOIS JOHNSON: Well, that’s your real name. SHERI BARDEN: That’s my real name, yes. SARAH BOYER: And we are going to have an interview about the Daughters of Bilitis, the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis. And before we get into that, maybe we should have a little background so we can put it in context. Were you a couple in 1969? LJ: Yes, we were. Yep. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Okay. How long had you been together? Since 1964. So that was a considerable period of time. And the way that we [00:01:00] sort of found DOB was a little unusual. Barden, as I call you, or Sheri, will tell you that. SHERI BARDEN: Well, we had a friend, and she was a very good friend. And she had us out to her little cabin in the woods one night in -LJ: It was in Littleton, I think. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Acton. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Acton. Nineteen sixty-seven. Something like that. 2 �SHERI BARDEN: And she fed us and gave us a wonderful meal, and then she said, “I have something to ask you. Would you be interested in forming a chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis?” LJ: And we were sitting around a wonderful, big fireplace that she had in her camp. It was very nice. SHERI BARDEN: And I said -- I almost fell over. I said, “Are you kidding me? We will meet nothing but nuts and kooks.” [00:02:00] And so she went on to do it. She did all the legwork and everything -- Jan Chase -- and went to New York, and she met the women there. And I’m sure she met Del and Phyllis from San Francisco. She just assumed, everyone assumed she’d be president. The night of the election, word got around that she was not -- they were pushing her out. And that sort of broke my heart. SARAH BOYER: Can you -- “they” were pushing her out? SHERI BARDEN: Yeah, they pushed her out. SARAH BOYER: And who was “they”? SHERI BARDEN: Well, it was another group that had been involved. But anyway, they formed the chapter. And one night, it was Arlington Street Church, one night we went -LJ: In the basement. SHERI BARDEN: No, it was on -- [00:03:00] you’ll notice this through the entire interview, we -LJ: Oh, church basement? Oh, (inaudible). SHERI BARDEN: LJ: No, dear. It was the top -- it was up the stairs. Oh, yeah. Okay. 3 �SHERI BARDEN: And -- SARAH BOYER: Now, I’m sorry. What do you mean? SHERI BARDEN: It was upstairs. SARAH BOYER: Oh. SHERI BARDEN: We had the dance, once we got involved with it, right? LJ: Yeah, we did. We did, we did. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: We will disagree. We’ll edit one another. SARAH BOYER: Okay. SHERI BARDEN: But I’m right. So... SARAH BOYER: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: Anyway, so we went up the stairs. And I don’t know why we were so scared, but we were scared, and we didn’t want to do it. Or I don’t know why, but we just sort of crept up the stairs. There was thousands -- not thousands, but hundreds of other women did after that. And we opened the door in the room, and over there were sitting a whole bunch of old dykes talking. And over here were a large group of lesbian feminists, and they were telling their life stories, [00:04:00] and angst, and blah blah blah. And they kept telling the older lesbians to shut up. And I sort of knew in my head that that’s what it was going to be like. And I said to her, “Let’s go. Let’s get the hell out of here!” And we crept back out the door and closed the door, and disappeared for several months. LJ: Actually, almost a year. SHERI BARDEN: Mm-hmm. 4 �LJ: And then what happened is -- let me get the sequence right, honey -- did we go to that meeting in Littleton -SHERI BARDEN: No, no, no. Let’s not get into that, because we had already met Jan before that. LJ: We met Jan before that. Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: But what went on? What precipitated us going back in to do the -- SHERI BARDEN: LJ: We met Jan in ’67, and that was another -- that’s another story. We watched a program on television -- Yep. SHERI BARDEN: David Susskind, or one of those interviewers. And he interviewed [00:05:00] Barbara Love and Sidney Abbott, the librarian, you know her name? LJ: Oh, Barbara Gittings. SHERI BARDEN: Barbara Gittings, the priest, Magora Kennedy, and a whole group of -- and I said, “Wow, there are lesbians out there!” We’re sitting here alone, at home, you know. So we wrote an ad in the Phoenix, because that was the only paper we had at that point. And we met women, and we said in the ad, “This is not a sex ad.” And of course everyone who contacted us [was] only interested in sex. Anyway, as somebody said, I’m not going to go there, because there was a little bit of that. We met somebody who said, “Why don’t you come to the meeting on Sunday?” And they had a room at Harvard. And I’m sure the people at Harvard didn’t know we were lesbians, [00:06:00] but we had a big meeting just to talk about what we could do, what 5 �we could organize. And we met wonderful people from Florida. And she became treasurer. She was wonderful. LJ: What was her name? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Oh, anyway, it’ll come to me tonight. Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: You know? She became a very dear friend. And bit by bit, we get involved with raps and meetings. And then they wanted her [Lois] to run for president; they certainly didn’t want me. They wanted her -- and I said, “No no no, no no no, no no no. She…” LJ: She was afraid I’d lose my job at WGBH. SHERI BARDEN: Yeah. So I became president. It was the most painful year of my life. And it just was oil on water. It just shouldn’t have been, it shouldn’t have happened. But it was 1974, and I ran for president. I [00:07:00] sort of kept the organization… I had 49 supporters, and their side had 19. I said, “You know, this is pretty good!” LJ: We did a lot of solicitation and said, “Look, it’s very important that this chapter goes on, and it is not going to go on if it has this kind of division.” SHERI BARDEN: But who were we? Who were we? This is what they were saying. Who were we to judge what the organization should be? But in my heart I knew what Del and Phyllis wanted [it] to be. They wanted it to be not political, not raging-whatever. They wanted it to be a social organization where women could come and be themselves and not be afraid, because in those days, it was frightening. LJ: And where they could come out, come out. SHERI BARDEN: Mm-hmm. Yep. But we did not [00:08:00] start the organization. 6 �LJ: No. Well, basically the organization started in the ’50s, back in -- SHERI BARDEN: LJ: -- 1955 in San Francisco. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: In L.A. No, in San Francisco. And it was just a group of eight women to begin with. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Nineteen fifty-five. That’s right. And of course, Phyllis and Del did so much more as they matured into the organization. And they formed it along with some other people in San Francisco. But in Boston we did some political stuff, but based -SHERI BARDEN: Well, no, we worked for Elaine Noble. We put her in the State House. SARAH BOYER: Was she a member? SHERI BARDEN: She joined [00:09:00] to support. She did, you know, because we supported her, and she supported us. LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: So she was a member, yeah. And of course the membership was secret. We had that locked up in a safe at home. LJ: Yeah. At the highest, it was creeping up over 150 to 175 members. SHERI BARDEN: A hundred and fifty, yep. Yep. Ann Maguire belonged, everybody belonged, you know? LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: It was good. 7 �LJ: Because it was there, it provided activities for people. There were so many. I don’t want to interrupt with what other questions you might have to ask. We can talk about whatever you think is germane here. SARAH BOYER: Okay, so you said that that first year, you were president. SHERI BARDEN: Yes. SARAH BOYER: And it was the worst year that you -- (laughs) SHERI BARDEN: Well, it wasn’t pleasant. SARAH BOYER: It wasn’t pleasant. [00:10:00] SHERI BARDEN: And there were -- excuse me, but there were Mafia type people who were just controlling it. And they blamed me for everything. And I just -- I said, “I can’t do this.” But after I became a non-president, I still was involved with the organization. And we had a lot of rap groups in it. And it was the rap groups that really -LJ: That held it together. SARAH BOYER: Okay. Can I just ask, after you stopped being president, did Lois come in as president? SHERI BARDEN: She took over. She was president for the whole year that I was president! (laughter) She had the gavel. And one night I said to her -LJ: I was the power behind the throne! SHERI BARDEN: LJ: And then when it reversed -- [00:11:00] SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I said one night, “Excuse me, I’m still president!” But thank God for her! -- she was the power behind the throne, too. 8 �SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Oh, yes. It always has been a partnership of the two of us working on it together. And also some of the other officers, the treasurer -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: -- the vice president, Barb Webber, Renee and Mimi. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Jean Ko Stewart. Jean Ko Stewart. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yep. And other people who were. And Jean -- SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Barbara Webber, she was there. She came in the ‘70s. And Stephanie. And Stephanie. And a lot of people who did work. And at that time, the people who were really active were -- comprised a group of probably, maybe 15 or 20. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Twenty-five at the most. There were lots of other people who came to things who contributed money, who were active to a certain degree. What I always said to people when I was the president was, “Look, [00:12:00] I’m asking you if you could do X, in other words maybe lead a rap for a month, or something like that. I’m not asking you to give up your life and devote your whole life to the organization.” And this is the way we got along. Because everybody was busy. I mean, people were younger at that time, had huge responsibilities at work, and stuff like that, including me. But I was fortunate; she [Sheri] was taking over when I was not in town. I was out of town a lot. So we just tried to make it work for everybody. But the raps were really terrific. SARAH BOYER: Well, let’s talk about the raps. 9 �LJ: Okay, fine. SARAH BOYER: At that time, that whole idea of consciousness-raising was coming up. And [00:13:00] there were -- you must have had quite a number of groups, of CR groups. Did you call them “consciousness-raising groups” or just raps? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: No, we called them “raps.” We called them “raps.” SARAH BOYER: Raps, okay. SHERI BARDEN: We had an Older Lesbian rap, we had Over-40, Under-40, Mothers with Children. And we got into the trans also; we did that. LJ: We did that. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: We had lots of raps. We had sometimes five raps a week. Well, basically, I call it “Rising Up Over the Stairs,” because we had an office at the Old Cambridge Baptist Church in Cambridge, obviously. Our first office up there had been offered to us by a group in the church, [who] wanted to help oppressed groups. So they wrote us a letter and asked us if we would be interested in renting an office. And we said immediately -- we jumped up and down with joy -- “Yes!” SHERI BARDEN: LJ: And we had a small office right above the organ pipes. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: And they gave us $50. It was a music room. Yeah, a music room, which would accommodate probably 20 people. But sometimes we’d have 40, with people bulging out the doors, because there was nowhere else to go in those days. So we started our first raps there. And then an opportunity came for a much larger, say, 10 �three times as big, room, which was across the hall. We had to learn how to raise money so that we could support it. In those days, it [00:15:00] was expensive -- not expensive, but for us it was. It was $75 a month, and we had to raise that every month. We started out first -- just with a large discussion group. There was everybody in it. There were people looking, people who didn’t know if they were really gay, [and] people who had been gay for years, who were so happy to find a place to come and meet other women. But as it grew larger and larger, and you realized that there were many different needs, [we] started to break into groups, like what Sheri was mentioning. And always after these groups, we would go somewhere to have coffee or snacks, or whatever. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: We’d go to the Saints, which was a bar in downtown Boston. SARAH BOYER: LJ: The Saints. We remember. A lot of [00:16:00] places. [We were] a social group, in addition to discussing some pretty heavy issues. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: You forgot to mention 419 Boylston. Oh my God, let’s talk about 419 Boylston. [DOB rented this office before Old Cambridge Baptist Church’s rental.] SARAH BOYER: What is it? Four -- SHERI BARDEN: Four nineteen. LJ: Four nineteen Boylston. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: The Homophile Community Health -- Service. 11 �SHERI BARDEN: -- [The] service was there, and they gave us a room to rent on one night a week, and the one -- the business meetings. And then one night a week. LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: And that was past the Knights of Columbus, down the hall and around the corner. LJ: It was on the fourth floor, I think. SHERI BARDEN: There was a place that had been an abortion counseling clinic. So we rented the abortion clinic. To see people scared to death getting in the elevator to go to the fourth floor… And we always worried about -- if there’s ever a fire, what are we going [00:17:00] to do? They might fire bomb the place when we’re in there. So somebody insisted, probably Lois, that we get one of those horrible -LJ: Ladders (inaudible). SHERI BARDEN: Ladders, going over the side, no way was I going to go over the side! We were there for quite a while. And we got broken into, husbands looking for business on their wives, and it was pretty awful. It was an awful place. Awful. LJ: Well, it had two little rooms. And one was a rap room; one was the little office. SHERI BARDEN: The little office. We had people manning, womaning, or whatever you want -- the office. We had people stand in the office and answer the telephone, which I thought was great. LJ: What I always will remember is that there were all sorts of people who came. And then there was one woman who arrived, and she was wearing a tweed coat, and she had her glasses on. And she looked very grim. [00:18:00] And she’s creeping in the door, you know, wearing a 12 �dress, which is very outré for me. I haven’t worn a dress for 40 years. So we always sent someone downstairs to stand in the lobby to help the poor souls who [were] coming for the first time, who [were] so frightened that they practically were flying. Anyway, she came in, and she looked around. I think it was I who was downstairs -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: No no no. It happened in the office. I was there. It happened in the office. Well, we finally got her upstairs, and she’s in the office. And we’re having a rap, etc., and she’s turned either to me or to somebody else and said, “I have reached the bottom of the barrel.” And I’m saying, “Really?” In other words, she referred to being a lesbian. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: “I never thought I’d get this low.” “I never thought I’d get this low,” is what she was saying. She never came back, thank God. But then [00:19:00] we had a very up, wonderful woman who was in her fifties… she was not -SHERI BARDEN: That was Peggy. SARAH BOYER: Can I just say -- try not to interrupt each other, for the -- LJ: Okay. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Just try, okay? Okay, fine. SHERI BARDEN: That’s hard to do. SARAH BOYER: Yeah. LJ: She was an officer, or not an officer, but she worked for the New England Telephone Company. And she was a dear woman. She had just had a heart attack, and she came up. And 13 �probably it was one of those things where being in the era we were, she had been hiding all that time with her lover, with her partner. And she just wanted to do something for DOB and for other women. So she donated money, didn’t she, hon? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Every month she’d pay the phone bill. She’d pay the phone bill for us. And we had quite a hefty phone bill because women were [00:20:00] calling. It was the only place to call in those days. It was at least a place to call. And we had so many people come in on that line. Someone who has been a good friend of ours for now 40 years or so, who had just lost her children to the judicial system -- the father had taken control of them because she, as a lesbian, was not considered a fit mother. And what else went on there? We always had drinks where people could buy something, buy a soft drink, or even a beer. (laughter) Which was illegal. People would bring snacks in. So it was a comfortable environment. But we had far-ranging [00:21:00] discussions about everything, from ‘How do I tell my mother, how do I tell my father? Should I tell my mother or father? How do I find a place? How do I find other women to be with? How do I find a lover? What do I do with my children when they ask me questions about what’s going on?’ It just went on. All kinds of questions. The rap leaders had to learn how to control things, though. You’d sit there, and one woman, say, would have great angst, and you had great compassion for people. They’d never met other lesbians, or whatever. But they would just go on and on and on, and [we] had to sort of rein them in and say that we will try to help you now. [00:22:00] [We’d say,] “Marie has something that she wants to say.” And you had to carefully sort of -- I won’t say control, but I suppose it is control -- the discussions that went on. There was one woman who was older, who later went on to do some other things; I never knew how old she was. But I think she was close 14 �to 75 when she first came. And she had lived in upstate New York and had been very isolated. And she was very definitive in her opinions. She never shut up. When she was in my rap, I had to say gently, “That’s fine, X” – (I can’t remember what her name was.) SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I know what her name was. What was her name? Christine Burton. I had to say, “Christine, [00:23:00] give some other people a chance. We’re very happy to hear what you’re saying, but this person needs a chance.” And then there’d be some other people who were very difficult to have in a complete rap session because they were determined that they were going to control it. But I was in control. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: But there were other people who were suicidal. And yes, you talk. SHERI BARDEN: We weren’t equipped to deal with that. And she made -- SARAH BOYER: Well, none of the rap leaders were professional therapists, were they? LJ: Oh, no. No. No. SHERI BARDEN: That’s right. No, they weren’t. SARAH BOYER: And would you say that -- it sounds to me like most of these raps were pretty successful. LJ: They were heavy. SARAH BOYER: They were heavy-duty. But things were managed. SHERI BARDEN: Yes. LJ: Oh, yeah, they were. [00:24:00] 15 �SHERI BARDEN: Yeah. If somebody really was in extremis, we would try desperately to find help. When we were at 419 Boylston, we had the health clinic, which was all therapists. And there were a couple of people who weren’t, but our therapist was there. It was wonderful. We did the best we could to help people. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Did you have people that were sort of out of control? Well, no. No one really went spinning -- SHERI BARDEN: Well, there was a woman with a gun. SARAH BOYER: Oh! LJ: Yeah, there was the woman who mentioned the gun that she was carrying. In today’s society, probably everybody would have dived out of the back window. But nobody really believed her at that point. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: You saw the gun? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Oh, I saw it the night I led the rap. Yeah. Yeah. But that was in the smaller room. And [00:25:00] we were a little uncomfortable with that. But it was open to everybody. It was in the Phoenix. LJ: But it wasn’t in the Globe, but it was in the Phoenix. They finally let us put an ad in. It told about, “Come to X-location, and there will be a discussion.” SHERI BARDEN: LJ: That was in Cambridge, at Harvard. We had the room there. I know. SHERI BARDEN: And we used to meet at Roy Rogers, you know, “Meet us at Roy Rogers.” 16 �LJ: Which was a little restaurant. [in Cambridge] SHERI BARDEN: Which was a little restaurant. And you’d stand out there and you’d say, “She looks like -- yeah, I think she is. Nah, that one’s not, no no, she’s not.” And we’d all gather and look at one another and say -LJ: We’d have a trail of maybe 10 people; then you’d walk them across… SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Harvard Yard. -- part of the Harvard Yard. Yeah. Into a place where one member was a student at Harvard. So she got an opportunity to rent the place. [00:26:00] Everybody thought it was just a women’s group, but it was a lesbian group. SHERI BARDEN: There was the night we got locked out. And I climbed in the window, and the cops arrived. (laughter) LJ: And there was no place to park. There were places to park in those days in Harvard Square. So we managed to get in there. That was a very good place to have a rap because it was safe, because nobody knew we were there. It was wonderful. SARAH BOYER: So did you have these different offices, or whatever, at the same time? Did you have the one on Boylston Street and the one on Harvard Square, and -SHERI BARDEN: Well, no. We used to go to Harvard Square -- I don’t even know if we had an office when we were going to Harvard Square. Harvard Square was the absolute earliest place that we went to. And then we got into [00:27:00] the Homophile Community Health Center. [419 Boylston St.] SARAH BOYER: Okay. 17 �SHERI BARDEN: And they allowed us in there. And then after that, we went to the church. [Old Cambridge Baptist Church] LJ: Yeah. We stayed with the church until the end of the organization. It had those high Gothic rafters; it was really nice. It was good for us. On the raps, because the flow of women was so much, we did start dividing -- as Sheri has said -- you had to be 18 to be legal, to get in there. So we never really had anybody younger than that. That would have been very bad. But we had 35-plus, because 35 began to be old age in those days. (laughter) And then older people started to come. Anyway, I will now go back to the discussion that I always talked about, when people first came to Old Cambridge Baptist Church. We were on the second floor. Most of the time we’d post somebody downstairs to get people through on the side door. And they’d come in, and there was a formidable 20 steps going up. And you could see the hesitation of people as they said, “This is like a watershed.” They had probably been gay most of their lives, probably not admitted it to too many people, or told many people, but here, they were going to climb the stairs. And I called it “climbing the stairs.” [00:29:00] You went up the stairs. When you got to the top, you knew that you had declared yourself, that you were really going to accept yourself – “I am a lesbian, or whatever you -- a gay woman.” And you would sit down, and you would talk. And you would begin to really appreciate the fact that you were not alone. SARAH BOYER: Just the fact that -- didn’t some women have a hard time saying “lesbian”? I remember that. LJ: Yeah. I never liked the word. I only recently, within the last five years, been able to accept it. SARAH BOYER: Is that right? 18 �LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Oh, yeah. Oh, it was a dirty word. We always disliked that. It was a dirty word because it had been sullied by all of the prejudices of that whole era, you know? SARAH BOYER: LJ: Right. Right. So “gay woman” was okay, though? “Gay woman” was the way it was used, yeah. SARAH BOYER: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: But some women got mad [00:30:00] because, “We’re not gay. We’re lesbians!” And I’m saying, “Oh, God!” LJ: Yeah. Yeah. And the way that we were different from other groups that were operating at that time -- which is not to put them down because they fulfilled the need. Over at the Women’s Center, there were some of whom had migrated to DOB, and she had discussed that previously, where it was a much more -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: -- work shoes and flannel shirts. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Militant. No no no, combat boots. And combat boots. And it was a much more militant type of thing which there was a need for. DOB was not a militant organization. The very fact of being a lesbian or being a gay woman, admitting it to yourself in those days, as I have said many times over, was a radical act. Just [00:31:00] to accept the fact that, yes, I am a lover of women. SARAH BOYER: Right. 19 �LJ: That’s what people were admitting to themselves when they “went up the stairs.” And we had some wonderful women in the organization who did rap leading. Barb Webber was one of them, Renee Shapiro, and of course, Jean Ko Stewart, and Mimi, and who else? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I don’t know. I can’t remember. There were some other people. I have it in my records somewhere. But these people took over. They’d be assigned: one person was going to do a mothers’ rap, another was going to do just a rap that anybody could come to. [00:32:00] Another one was for 35-plus; then began 50plus as we all grew older. The women who had the studio on Beacon Hill… SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Jean and Louise. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Oh, Jean and Louise. Young. Ran a rap. Yeah, Louise Young. And she ran quite a few older raps. And there were a lot of people. SARAH BOYER: Did they do it for -- you said that you offered them just do a month at a time or whatever. LJ: Yeah. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Oh, much longer periods. Much longer periods. SARAH BOYER: LJ: For years, would you say? Oh, for years. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Did these particular women do it for longer than that? Yeah. They did it for years. 20 �SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Webber was one of the best, yes, she was. Yeah. [00:33:00] And then we did them. You did some, and I did a lot of them. SARAH BOYER: Can you remember anyone in either one of your raps that -- well, what rap did you do that you remember pretty well? LJ: Well, I did the beginning raps of just [for] everybody [who] was there. Then the 35-plus, the 50-plus. Sometimes I would put a subject up. Other times it was just open to anything that anyone wanted to say. One of the things that you had to remember, or had to be comfortable with, was to learn that silence is not necessarily non-productive. Silence is a difficult thing when you’re having a discussion, because you feel, [00:34:00] ‘Oh God, what’s going to happen? Is it going to end now?’ Are they going to -- you just pull it out, ask questions, speak about yourself. And then finally you’ll get somebody… Because sometimes there were people there who were still terrified at being there, or uncomfortable, so uncomfortable that they almost wanted to get up and leave. Not because anybody was doing anything, but just because they were having this terrible struggle with themselves. So you just had to calm them down and just give everybody an opportunity. SARAH BOYER: Do you remember anybody in particular that really stands out in your mind as someone who came in terrified, and gradually started to accept herself? LJ: There [00:35:00] were people like that. I just can’t remember names at the moment. SARAH BOYER: LJ: I have some names down. Can you remember some names? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. No, but I remember Joan and Shirley. Oh yeah, I remember that. 21 �SARAH BOYER: Who? SHERI BARDEN: Joan and Shirley, who came on a Friday night. Shirley didn’t come, she was in a wheelchair, and so was Joanie in a wheelchair. Shirley -SARAH BOYER: Were they a couple? SHERI BARDEN: They were a couple. And Joanie had been in the Marines. Shirley was in a wheelchair with MS. LJ: They came down from Maine. SHERI BARDEN: And I gave them my phone number, and they gave me theirs. And she [Lois] wasn’t there that night. And I called them the next morning, and they said, “Why don’t you come up? Why don’t you come up for the holiday?” This was Thanksgiving. [00:36:00] And we went up to Stonington, Maine, which is Deer Isle, in a raging blizzard. And we had a wonderful weekend. What a weekend that was. And we became fast friends. We visited them, Lord, two or three times a year sometimes. And it was a long drive, a nine-hour drive. And they had a big cabin called Birchbend, slept about 20 people. But they were wonderful people. Then they wanted to do something for women, so they formed a studio for women’s music in Blue Hill, Maine -- Kay Gardner and the whole bunch of women at that time. SARAH BOYER: Oh, yeah. SHERI BARDEN: Yeah, they were wonderful, yeah. So that was -- they weren’t in extremis, but they were wonderful people and did great things for the women’s community. LJ: Well, all I can say, in general terms, there [00:37:00] were many people who came, who you could tell were sort of in extremis. 22 �SHERI BARDEN: But a woman came, and I was convinced she was going to commit suicide that night. LJ: Yeah, there was one. SHERI BARDEN: Her partner had just died. They were together for 25 years, but the woman was married. So the woman said to her, “I’ll never leave you.” And every Wednesday the woman who was married would give the other woman a dozen roses. And then she died. And she said, ‘I knew she was going to leave me. I always told her, ‘You’re going to leave me.’ And she said, ‘I’m not going to leave you. I’m never going to leave you.’” You know, it was so sad. We sat with her for a long time. And I just prayed that she -- we never saw her again. I just [00:38:00] prayed that she found some help. We gave her Marion’s phone number. LJ: Yeah. There were, of course, many therapists in the Cambridge area. And at that time there was one or two who were members of DOB, or they were friendly to DOB. And they did give us some training, to a degree. But we always realized that we would never put someone or ourselves in jeopardy by thinking that we were giving therapy to anybody. But we did have several weekend sessions where people went to learn how to conduct a group, and what to do when something very heavy or serious came up, or where to direct people. And we often directed people to get therapy, saying that we [00:39:00] were going to be here every week. We were not therapists, but we were here if you wanted to come and be with people. And I think more than anything, what we accomplished was to be able to help people with isolation because God knows, we felt isolated. I mean, we were grateful to be with one another, but we felt isolated. I spent most of my time with men. In my first relationship there was one woman, my partner and I, and about 25 guys who were members of the Organ Guild, you know, who were all 23 �good friends of ours. And we spent parties with them and went places with them, went on trips with them, went everywhere, and just the two of us. And we said, ‘Are there any other lesbians out there?’ And we felt the same way. We were doing [00:40:00] the same thing when she and I got together. But finally, we realized, gee -- When I first went into a place where there were more than -- I think there were 20 lesbians. I looked around and I started to cry because there were actually other women who think as I do, who feel as I do. And that was the thing that really helped us through. Then DOB became sort of -- Once I became president, and we had gone through all the crises of that early era, we were established at Old Cambridge Baptist Church. Then we just sort of set up a whole framework of things -- the way that things worked. There was always a business meeting every month. There were officers who were elected once a year. It followed all the outlines that Del and Phyllis had made in their [00:41:00] bylaws. In those days you became sort of a satellite of the one that was in California, in San Francisco. Then we planned all kinds of social things. We had at least four or five, sometimes six, potluck parties at our house, to which came anywhere from 40 to, I’d say, 75 people. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: A hundred. Seventy-five or a hundred women. And the house, thank God, was big enough to accommodate everybody. We’d have pot luck, and then you’d go around, and we opened our top floor and then our bottom floor, our second floor. And you’d have people sitting around and just talking and talking and talking because that’s what people wanted to do. They wanted to meet one another. And I’ll tell you, [00:42:00] there were a large number of women who met and paired off from coming to those. Then we had dances at least a couple of times a year. We had -24 �SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Thanksgiving Day dinner. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Right. And it had four floors, is that correct? It had four floors, yeah. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Okay, did you have the -- now your house was located -- In the South End of Boston. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Thanksgiving Day dinner. Did you have the dances there, too? Oh we had dances, yes, we had -- SHERI BARDEN: We had the dan-- SARAH BOYER: At the house? SHERI BARDEN: Yes. LJ: At the house. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: And Lilith. And those were, I think, specifically fundraisers for Elaine. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: We had the Deadly Nightshade, the band, and Lilith one night. Well, one was a fundraiser. Lilith was a fundraiser for Elaine Noble. Yeah. Yeah. And tell them about, what was it, some -- LAURA CATANZARO: So we’ll take a little pause here. (pause in recording) SARAH BOYER: Yes. So this is incredible. You [00:44:00] actually had dances at your house? LJ: Oh yes, we did. 25 �SHERI BARDEN: We had a straight guy who lived on the first floor, and he had lived upstairs in the room where we had our dances. And then he moved downstairs. And we’d always say, “Lee, we’ll get you a motel for the night, because it’s going to be noisy.” And he said, “No, it’s all right, it’s okay, don’t worry about it.” And have the windows open, and all the neighborhood kids dancing in the street. LJ: And dancing in the park. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: In the street. In the street, yeah, they were dancing in the street. Yeah. Yeah. That was happening. SARAH BOYER: How wonderful. LJ: It was just great. LC: And it was a rough hood, so you made it safer. LJ: Yeah. Yeah. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Oh, we did. We did. With dancing in the street. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I mean, they said, “The neighborhood is not the same without you.” I know. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Everybody loved us, and everybody misses us. I know. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Kids could be dancing in the streets. But we were old then. When we moved, we were almost [00:45:00] 80! (laughter) I had to be carried down the stairs. SHERI BARDEN: Yeah, yeah. SARAH BOYER: Oh God, what a place of memories. 26 �LJ: What a place of memories. Well, I was talking to someone the other day, and I was saying to her, or him, I guess it was her. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Her. It was Ellen. It was Ellen, yeah. She said, “Oh, the place isn’t the same without you.” I said, “Well, thank you so much, Ellen.” I said, “Truly, we are very happy where we are, but our hearts and our youth will always be in the South End.” It was a wonderful time to be there with people. We were all working to improve the area. And we improved it to such a degree that we improved ourselves right out of it. Well, let’s see, what else? What other activities have you got? SARAH BOYER: LJ: I have a couple of questions. [00:46:00] Good. SHERI BARDEN: Good. SARAH BOYER: Now this is really off from what you were talking about, but I read someplace that the Globe would not accept your ad. Is that correct? LJ: No. No, they wouldn’t. SHERI BARDEN: That is correct. SARAH BOYER: When you first started out, they wouldn’t take it? LJ: They wouldn’t take it, no. SARAH BOYER: Did they -- did they tell you that verbally? Or did they. . . SHERI BARDEN: Oh, I’m sure they did. LJ: Yeah, they did. They told us, “We do not accept these ads.” And -- SHERI BARDEN: The only place to go was the Phoenix, and The Real Paper. SARAH BOYER: The Real Paper. Right. 27 �LJ: Yeah, The Real Paper. I remember The Real Paper, too. Yeah. This was very much the ’70s. SARAH BOYER: I was reading that the national DOB had a journal [00:47:00] called The Ladder. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Mm-hmm. Yes. SARAH BOYER: Did you have women in the group that contributed to The Ladder? SHERI BARDEN: No. No no no. We had the Maiden Voyage. LJ: It was initially called the Maiden Voyage. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: And what was it after that? It was called Focus after that. SARAH BOYER: Right. SHERI BARDEN: Yeah. SARAH BOYER: Now what was in that? That was like a newsletter that -- SHERI BARDEN: No, it was more stories, just stories. It wasn’t -- SARAH BOYER: What kind of stories? LJ: And poems. SHERI BARDEN: And poems, yeah. SARAH BOYER: What kind of stories? SHERI BARDEN: Nothing I wanted to read, but -- LJ: About lesbian experience. SHERI BARDEN: Yeah. It wasn’t deep enough for me, I mean -28 �SARAH BOYER: LJ: Yes. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Was it about -- were some of them about women coming out? I think so, yeah. It was, yeah. SHERI BARDEN: The stories were germane to their lives. [00:48:00] And they were people we weren’t crazy about, so we just let them go off and do their thing, and it was fine. We had our little newsletter. We had another little newsletter that we mailed out every month to everybody. And that had current things and what we were doing. LJ: When the raps were, and discussions, and invitations to come to this dance, to go to that rap. I think we had a barn dance, didn’t we, once? SHERI BARDEN: Yes. That was in the middle of winter. Elaine Noble was running for state rep., and it was out in a barn out in Sherborn. It was so cold we had to -LJ: Come back (inaudible). (laughter) SHERI BARDEN: -- get Deadly Nightshade, and we had to go back into the Saints and have our -- I think it was a birthday party or something. LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I don’t know what it was. But it was crazy. We always had a DOB birthday party every year. Because we were so grateful it still existed. [00:49:00] SHERI BARDEN: LJ: At Ann Maguire’s bar -- what was that? Somewhere Else? Somewhere Else. SARAH BOYER: Somewhere Else. 29 �LJ: On Franklin Street. SARAH BOYER: Oh, yeah. SHERI BARDEN: Ann would always have the party for us. LJ: Yeah. And we always had a birthday cake for DOB. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yep. And the DOB in Boston, Boston-slash-Cambridge, lasted until -- I don’t know a specific date when I can say it was voted out. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: It was ’89 or so. Well, of course, what had hap-- SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I remember it was around ’89. [Actually around 1992 sb] We had our 25th birthday. That’s right, we had a 25th birthday for it. What happened is that, of course, life changed. And we were lucky that things began to be different and better. And there was an [00:50:00] addition of all kinds of other activities, so that eventually, as the late ’80s and the early ’90s came in, there were things that women were going to other than, say, DOB. DOB for a long, long, time was the only game in town where you could meet other women. And then it became easier to meet other women. So as a result, we began to feel as though the organization had fulfilled its purpose. But we spent, I think, a year and a half, going through discussions. We made up questionnaires for people so that we would have some concrete information to base our decision on. And ultimately, a vote was taken by the organization that [00:51:00] it should disband, that it had fulfilled its purpose. Even though that motion passed, there were some people who wanted it to continue. Stephanie Marcos for one. And she had sort of a small social organization for a few years after that, which we didn’t know much about at that point. 30 �SHERI BARDEN: We played baseball at Magazine Beach. SARAH BOYER: Well, I was going to bring that -- you had a softball team? LJ: Softball team. SHERI BARDEN: And it continued. That was important, and people loved that. So every college had a women’s group. Every college had a lesbian group. And then there was OLE, Old Lesbian Energy, and two or three other organizations. And some people belonged to both organizations. [00:52:00] LJ: Yeah, some people wanted everything. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: -- spend a little more time with each other. Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah, but it just felt to us like it was time for us to -- After we disbanded it, I suffered a lot from burnout. Withdrawal. SHERI BARDEN: It was burnout, but it was also withdrawal. But we had already made all of these friends -- Webber, Mimi and Renee, and oh, Carol. LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: And all these wonderful people that we met, and we’re still friends with them, and close to some people. And some people have sort of gone off. LJ: And some people have passed away. SHERI BARDEN: Yep. Well also, the LGBT Aging Project came along, and that was wonderful. That is wonderful. 31 �LJ: About 15 [00:53:00] years ago. SHERI BARDEN: And all the brunches and the suppers that they do. And that sort of filled in -LJ: Bridged the gap. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Filled in the gap. Well, I know I would wake up some mornings after I realized that we had to sort of back off, or that it was okay now, after all the years, to do that. But I was so bereft. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. Because we got so much from it. As I always say, we got as much or more from our activism -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: That’s what I say. -- than people will say, “Oh, you spent so much time,” and blah blah blah. We were very grateful that we had the personalities to do it. But we needed those people as much as they needed us. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: DOB gave me more than I gave it, I think, is how I feel. And it was a wonderful, wonderful organization for us to [00:54:00] be in. But even afterwards, I was busy still at work. But I’d write down and say to myself, ‘Well maybe I can form an organization for older women.’ And when the LGBT Aging Project came along, that was exactly what I had wanted. But I didn’t have the time or the energy at that time do it. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Thank God for Lisa and Bob Linscott. Lisa and Bob. SHERI BARDEN: And the film -- the film. [Gen Silent] 32 �LJ: And Dale Mitchell. SHERI BARDEN: Dale Mitchell. And the film -- wow, who knew that was going to take off? LJ: I know. I think that we were able to give a lot in that. And we’ve gotten a lot out of it. I don’t mean materially; I mean psychically and emotionally. Because if there’s one thing in this world… As she, Sheri, will always say, “Do you ever shut up?” [00:55:00] I can’t help it; I like to talk! SHERI BARDEN: When we met, she never spoke. And I never shut up. Now, oh, please God, just take her out for an hour to a doctor’s appointment! (laughter) LJ: Oh, yes. SARAH BOYER: I know these are sort of off the topic. I love how you’ve concluded this. I just want to get back a little bit to fill in some things. LJ: Yeah. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Now you said that there were trans -- you had trans members. Yeah. SARAH BOYER: How were they treated? I mean, how did women treat that? Because I just remembered the Women’s Center having a -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: This was in the middle ’80s. SARAH BOYER: LJ: We had a business meeting. We voted on it, and our side won. Now, what do you mean, “your side”? Well basically, [00:56:00] this is the way it was. Some trans women came to us, and they wanted to become members. Some people were horrified -- not me -- this was very early on in 33 �the trans discussions. And we felt it was very important to think very carefully about this. And we felt if a woman identi-- if a person identifies as a woman, if they have maybe led their life as a man, but they really feel they are a woman, and they want to join our organization, they certainly may. And so we had a long discussion. There were some people who were absolutely rabid; they did not want this. And there were other people on the other side, like us, who were [00:57:00] -- we weren’t rabid, but we felt that this was the only fair and kind and good thing to do. And we voted and said, “Look, you’ve identified as a woman, you can join. And so we had one, two, at least four over the years. Martha was one. I forget the name of the other woman, but she was with a woman who wasn’t trans. And they were very good for the organization. SARAH BOYER: Yep. Do you remember that whole incident at the Women’s Center with Christy Barsky? LJ: No, I don’t. SARAH BOYER: Well, it’s a shame. I just feel if she had only known about DOB – they [the Women’s Center] wouldn’t let her in. And she was trans, you know? LJ: Yeah. SARAH BOYER: I forget it was in the ’70s. SHERI BARDEN: There was Alix Dobkin, the concert that night, [00:58:00] that she said at Old West Church, “I want all male children out of here.” And half of us got up and left. LJ: That’s the way it was. SARAH BOYER: LJ: Oh, I know it. There were people in that era that, you know, for better or for worse -- SHERI BARDEN: That’s inhumane. That’s what’s going on today. 34 �LJ: Went over the top, you know? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. They just felt that they had to be so pushy; they had to be exclusive. It had to be this way, you know? And some of the writings, etc., were ‘if you aren’t this, then we’ll not accept you, etc.’ But one of the things we’ve realized over the years is -- at least I have said this -- if you don’t have a certain portion of a group which is willing to just go over the top, just [00:59:00] be extremely radical, then sometimes the groups do not succeed. But that is not our nature. There are some people who can do that -- who want to do that -- who will lie down in the street in front of the bulldozer or the bus. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Act Up. Act Up. And, you know, we felt that was just not our nature to be able to do that. We could provide other things to people, but we could not provide that. And that is my feeling at the moment. Unless you have somebody who’s willing to risk their life for a cause, many times you are not going to succeed. So I am appreciative of both sides. But my side is to be able to gently, and sometimes with a forceful hand, lead people [01:00:00] to do what we think is right for everybody. SARAH BOYER: And, I mean, my feeling, too, would be to discriminate against other people when you have had that -LJ: Just discrimination against yourself. SARAH BOYER: -- discrimination against yourself is just -- and it’s still going on with a couple of groups today. SHERI BARDEN: Really? 35 �SARAH BOYER: Ova 4D. [Since the time of this interview, the organization now includes trans women in its membership.] LJ: Yeah. Yeah. SARAH BOYER: Yeah. I don’t know the other one. When you said earlier about a “revolutionary act,” I mean, sometimes it’s a very strong, aggressive political revolution. And sometimes it’s just a quiet revolution. And perhaps yours was a quiet revolution. LJ: It was a quiet revolution. SHERI BARDEN: There was a woman who used to come to our house, [01:01:00] and she had a heavy hand on thinking. I saw her out in the street one day, and I said, “I haven’t seen you lately. Where have you been?” She said, “Oh, you people are so boring!” Old white ladies locked in a closet.” And I’m, like, ‘Whoa! Whoa.’ LJ: Well, addressing one other thing here -- we wanted to be all-inclusive. But one of the things that was very difficult -- we wanted black women, and we wanted Hispanic women. We tried our best; probably we could have done better. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I don’t know what we could have done. But we would invite -- I forget exactly how we did it, but we made a special effort to look for black women to come and be with us, because we felt that it was an all-white group. And we had not planned it [01:02:00] that way. And occasionally we would get them, maybe a few women to come, but they didn’t stay for long. I think they just felt uncomfortable. But nobody, in any way, excluded them. But I’m very glad now to hear that there is a group which is entirely for black and Hispanic people, but they are not excluding anybody who wants to come. And that’s the way we felt. And we felt sort of as though we had failed in that direction. We wanted 36 �a multicultural group. But it was very hard to get it in those days. This was the ’70s, the ’80s and even the early ’90s. It was very difficult. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: You had to really work at it. And Gloria is working very hard for that. And Sarah. Yeah, with Sarah. And OLOC is doing a wonderful [01:03:00] job, you know, of being inclusive. And we really wanted that. SARAH BOYER: That kind of answers the question about looking back, and you think of any ways that DOB could have been more effective. LJ: Oh, yeah. SARAH BOYER: But you tried, didn’t you? SHERI BARDEN: We tried. LJ: We tried, yeah. One thing which we didn’t discuss, which should be discussed, is the Thanksgiving dinner. Do you want to talk about that, or do you want me to? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I mentioned it before. You mentioned it, yeah. SARAH BOYER: Yeah, so tell us -- yeah. SHERI BARDEN: It was wonderful. SARAH BOYER: What -- did everybody bring something to the dinner? SHERI BARDEN: No no no. I think they paid $5. LJ: Yeah. SARAH BOYER: Oh, okay. 37 �SHERI BARDEN: We supplied two or three turkeys, and one year I did it all by myself. You were out of town. And we did it at St. John’s on Bowdoin Street. Bring all the food, and that was the year we got locked out of the church, and we [01:04:00] had to go break in the rear window. LJ: Climb in the windows again? (laughter) SHERI BARDEN: One year it rained, and we got flooded out. You weren’t there, were you? LC: No, I don’t remember that. LJ: That was at Old Cambridge Baptist Church. SHERI BARDEN: Yeah, we had to get out of there. And people were saying, “Well, why do we have to go?” I said, “The water’s pouring in here!” You know? LJ: We had a woman who was entertaining, playing guitar. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Wonderful. Well, the way this went, just to give a person an outline of what it was, we decided that in those days, and probably still in these days, with some people, you go home for Thanksgiving on the day. So we never had it on the day, of course. We had it a week in advance on a Saturday or a Sunday. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Sunday. And this was for people who could not bring their significant [01:05:00] other, or their lover, or whatever you want to call it, home with them, or if they did, it would always be, “How do you do, dear?” You know, “How nice to see you,” [and] the other one could never be seen as having a partner. We would have a full Thanksgiving dinner. There would be probably three 38 �huge turkeys, a couple of turkey breasts, with 125 people coming. And it was also open to children. And over the years, various people like there were -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Mary. There was a woman named Mary who had been in the convent. And Mary was a wonderful cook; she cooked when she was in the convent. And she would make all the vegetables. We’d have the mashed potatoes and all of the vegetables to go with it. We’d have rolls, we’d have pies for dessert, maybe six different kinds. It was just a full Thanksgiving dinner. And that was [01:06:00] followed by entertainment, which was usually some sort of a skit that people had come up with. One of them I remember very distinctly, was Veronica. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. And Veronica was -- it was based on a Thanksgiving dinner where the aunt came, and obviously the aunt was a full-blown lesbian. She was always, you know, dressed in these very lesbian-like clothes. (laughter) SHERI BARDEN: LJ: So they put on a skit, which took about a half an hour. And it was lots of fun. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Whatever that is. And then the Dobtones. We had the Dobtones, or whatever they were called. And that would be wonderful. There’d [01:07:00] be dancing. And this was all in the basement of the Old Cambridge Baptist Church. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Every seat would be taken. And everybody cleaned up. And the food was fabulous; it was wonderful homemade food. She said it would be, say, $5; in our era we would say, ‘more if you can, less if you can’t.’ Some people couldn’t afford 39 �that so they might draw up a couple of bucks. And we’d have a wonderful time. One of the very first ones was at the Bowdoin Episcopal Church. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Bowdoin Street, St. John’s. St. John’s Church. And the Cowley Fathers were there. They reached out to us, and they enabled us to use their basement to have a Thanksgiving dinner. It wasn’t as full-blown as these [01:08:00] others, but it was very interesting that a group which was very high Episcopal -because of the Cowley Fathers were very high Episcopal, did that. Then it was the old Arlington Street Church; of course, [it] was UU, where you would expect that. But you wouldn’t expect it from the Episcopalians at that point. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: And they had dances over there before we came along. Yeah. But the Thanksgiving dinner was a wonderful place. So each year, we’d take out our calendar and plan out our year, because we’d have five or six potlucks at our house. We’d have the Thanksgiving dinner. We’d have at least one dance. We’d have raps every -- by the time we were finished, I think we were having 10 to 15 [01:09:00] raps a month. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: We’d have -- what were the other things we did? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: I don’t think we ever made very much money. No, but we’d have training for the people at least once a year. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Oh, we had a flea market one day outside the church, a couple of times. We were fundraising by flea markets, and stuff like that. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: At least. We had blood drives. We had blood drives downstairs. That was Jean Ko Stewart. 40 �SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Mimi (inaudible) and Renee -- they did the blood drives. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: No no no, that was Mimi and Renee. Yes. All right. Then we’d have the birthday party. SHERI BARDEN: Then they used to take the trips. Trips out to Ware. You had the birthday party. LJ: Yes. We had a group -- SHERI BARDEN: LJ: That was called a -- SARAH BOYER: LJ: What was the name of that? A retreat? Was it a retreat place now? No. SHERI BARDEN: No, it was like orientating -- SARAH BOYER: Orienteering. SHERI BARDEN: Yes. LJ: Orienteering. Now that was Mimi [01:10:00] and Renee -- SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Pat and Cora. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Cora. Were doing that. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Pat and her partner. Yeah. Then we had a lot of subgroups. We’d have all of the discussions. Then the other thing I should mention again, more strongly, is the fact that in those days, there was enough technology 41 �on phones so that people could leave a message. And people would leave a message, and sometimes you’d just have these agonized messages from people. And other times it would just be, ‘when is the meeting going to come?’ At least there was that line of communication with the community. Then there were picnics. We went up to New Hampshire; we went on picnics -SHERI BARDEN: LJ: No, Lake Cochituate. Lake Cochituate, yeah. And there were various other things. Sometimes [01:11:00] I mix up some of the things we did with what all of DOB did. How did we meet our wonderful friend who died when she was 60? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Down in -- the girls. She had five children? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Who? Oh, Cecilia. She had five girls and a boy, and they were all gay. SARAH BOYER: Oh, my God. SHERI BARDEN: And she was Portugese. LJ: Did she come to DOB? Was that how we met her? SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yes. Yes. We were going to have a party. Yeah. SHERI BARDEN: And she [Lois] came home from a rap, and she said, “I have met these two wonderful women.” And I said, “Please God, please, I don’t want any more friends. I don’t need any more friends. Please don’t do this to me!” (laughter) So the night of the party, in they walked. And I just fell instantly in love with them. And it [01:12:00] was like we’d always known one another. 42 �LJ: Oh, they were wonderful. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Pat. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Yeah. Wonderful people. We met wonderful people. Yeah. Let’s see, what else is there? SARAH BOYER: LC: Cecilia and Pat. What -- I have a question, but at the end. SARAH BOYER: Yeah, the thing is, unfortunately, I’m out of time. SHERI BARDEN: All right. SARAH BOYER: But what did you want to say? LC: Just in general, the era was about lesbian feminism, politically, philosophically. And also one of the things that was an Achilles heel for us was our own political correctness at times. LJ: Mm-hmm. LC: So where did DOB -- how did DOB navigate those waters of political correctness and bringing [it] to the fore. I mean, this whole interview has been about how you brought to the fore lesbian feminism. But to think of lesbianism with [01:13:00] feminism being a larger thing than any one individual lesbian was, a larger calling of the era. SHERI BARDEN: LC: I was never politically correct. I’m sure you were not. SHERI BARDEN: So I said. . . I mean, no no no. We were middle of the road. We were middle of the road. SARAH BOYER: Go ahead. 43 �SHERI BARDEN: We were not left, we were not right. So we were not progressive. We certainly weren’t conservative. So people looked down their nose at us, because we were -- I don’t know I would say we were wishy washy, but, you know, white old ladies locked in a closet -- I mean, I don’t think so. But yet we were not progressive. I’ve never been progressive. LJ: We’re Democrats. SHERI BARDEN: We’re Democrats. But in our neighborhood, people said, “Mom, you’ve got to come meet these two radicals. They’re radical.” [01:14:00] I said, “We’re not radical. There’s nothing radical about us.” “Well yes, you belong to DOB, and you’ve done all this work,” and blah blah blah -- no. If people were looking for that in us, you’re at the wrong door. LJ: I will say, again, I will repeat for myself, repeat myself being a lesbian, being active and not hiding, in those days, was a radical act. SARAH BOYER: LJ: That’s right. Our politics, however, is that we have been Democrats, you know, and we were Republicans when we were children. We were brought up that way, both of us. But we both became Democrats, because we believe in all of the things that the true Democrat, in my opinion, belongs SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Believes in. Believes in. However, for me, [01:15:00] the most important thing is, we navigated the waters by appealing to the human part. The human part, which is to protect, save those women who were being persecuted by our society, and to do it in the best way that we could do. We were not equipped to be radical lesbians lying in the street in front of the bus, and I do not put that down. We were equipped to bring love, to bring respect, to bring equality and to bring 44 �friendship to people. And that was our radical mode of operation. And that’s what the organization was about. [01:16:00] In my opinion, it wasn’t always that way. It had its problems. It had its people fighting with one another, “Oh, I don’t like the other one.” But that didn’t happen all the time. But of course, you’ve got two human beings in the same room, you’re going to have friction. But you’re also going to have harmony, if you’ll use your mind and use your head, and use your heart. Most of all, use your heart. Because this is what that organization did for people. It enabled them to respect themselves, to love one another, and to come out from the shadows where we did not belong. SARAH BOYER: You know, I just have to say that it’s an honor to be with you, both of you, today, and to get this recording. LJ: I’m so glad we could do it. SARAH BOYER: [01:17:00] It’s just amazing what you’ve done in your lives for other people, and how much you yourselves have received from that. But it’s really an honor to be with you. SHERI BARDEN: LJ: Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. SARAH BOYER: I mean that. And I feel that, yeah, love is the most important thing. SHERI BARDEN: It is. LJ: It is. It’s the most important thing. There’s nothing more important than that. And all those women received that. Love is liberation. SHERI BARDEN: And I’ve got to tell you one story. We were in Maine, Wells Harbor, the day that Diana died in Paris. And there was a woman in DOB, who was very good to DOB, very good. But she hated us. I was pretty sure she hated us, but she was very good to us. And she 45 �had a wallpapering company or something, and she decorated the off--[01:18:00] Anyway, so we met her in the parking lot. And she said, “You realize that Diana just died.” And I’m saying, “Oh my God.” I was overwhelmed with grief. And she said, “I just wanted to say to you -- you saved my life in DOB. And I love you for that.” And we sat and cried, and we hugged one another and cried. But that little thing, just saying that one little thing there, really touched me. I realized, I guess we did do something. END OF LOIS JOHNSON/SHERI BARDEN FILE 46 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Barden, Sheri; Johnson, Lois Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lois Johnson and Sheri Barden, 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-29 Description An account of the resource Interview with Lois Johnson and Sheri Barden for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Sarah Boyer and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Barden, Sheri; Johnson, Lois; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/bee7f3d1cfaa8c86ce07a2ddcec85656.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=WZzSE6a65OvqE-BOVRw8DNafwIlBR1zVcJww7J-Ft8lgnA6b3PzZK5I2ewzd7XbDJm-pRDzW64Np1%7EWG1LAcbkZdrSdRGBxeNaL9EN7mbE65PYmK7WLodUq8UZDo8aSHzpFQProTCNPX1d9xg8VWaYFdlYrcr3Dk-4kHwAeRWdIQBhgPiKglnKfsLYfvwnhlVL-BVDS9ePWSbS1lllLpMjY31Qj8nQ22zx0Yy8Nu33aBBos5wfp3C5vbhK8ost9TMdM%7E9LeooLoh8HOR983figJPe-1FbFqZlQxCElW2A6TpNOcKVFySNrYJloRe5spbE60Xy%7ELBTDiCxgKEbF0Xmw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 6b8dccc8f58d8e076c60c3ca822e2a01 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/fc9ae8c2e213f1f512804b5e86c7d18a.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=VwBX7GceN4gQ2rVkb90P9F95UexyyGcwOML942Pt647m8JcOJZqteMqxtz8bpD7geWAcWRmbwbDZyLcdcg8f9P5fUQ4lEG2g9ffpXhb54fRDCJfS%7ENtLWjuSaXKEq5wt218ZWaj2dWuNmOhM-Un006p%7E5gpPFjKnbuzR6xBIlEwJ5cpqqsSfGvFFwScDK2hQF2NM3a9PsvIcEYcVdl-S2%7E%7EM9wPebV9T55%7EvK9AcQMjljvm0ue0CL3nfqqd3a3TxoHuTgBRpIZY5PcwZlxyWILfs7h%7EOTeah560E4gjTsQfHTHrHvG7LOOb8Ky7pie1QVlTIasHMWt6ybDfBc%7E3r1g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c4647e1bf1656cec23e737e58a2ab869 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Donna Dimock Interviewers: Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer June 20, 2019 1 �SARAH BOYER: Today is June 20, 2019, and this is Sarah Boyer, and I am with Donna Dimock and Lois Johnson. And we are here to do an interview for the DOB Project in Boston. Lois will be interviewing Donna. So, why don’t we start with that Lois, okay? LOIS JOHNSON: Okay, fine. Now, it’s all right, don’t touch it. Now so, I’m going to say again, I’m so happy to have Donna here, and for us to review our history. The first thing - I, obviously you and I know one another, but I’ll ask you questions for other people who don’t know you. DONNA DIMOCK: Sure. LJ: And the first thing is, [01:00] something about your early life, where you were born, where you lived, what your childhood interests were, who was in your family. Give us a brief on that. DD: Okay. I was born in Oxford, Mass., but I grew up in Andover, Mass., on a farm, Wild Rose Farm, okay? So my early childhood right through high school was with nature, a dairy farm. And I just loved farming. LJ: And your father was a farmer. DD: My father was a farmer. He worked on Wild Rose Farm. Sid White owned it. Even today, if I drive down Route 133... I used to climb on a stone wall, waiting for the school bus. [02:00] And half of that stone wall is still there, and it’s called Wild Rose Estates. LJ: Isn’t that wonderful. DD: So at least they kept that. But as far as I’m concerned, farm life is what I hope most people can be aware of and nature. Nature to me is very, very important. LJ: Did you go into the woods with your family or take walks? 2 �DD: All the time. Yep, walkers. I learned...the first vehicle I drove was a tractor. (laughter) Yep, loved it. Yeah, I used to help haying. When I had the chickenpox, I was, didn’t go to school, but I helped with the haying. But I enjoyed the farm life. And yes, nature always was important. My father was a true farmer. [03:00] He loved animals, and he was very conscious. As far as a father goes, he was fairly strict. But not really. My mom had a very close friend. Her name was Alice Dolan, and her husband worked on the same farm. So I got to know... just friends all the time. Of course, in later years, I realized... LJ: That it was more. DD: They were very close. Yes, yes. So that was growing up. And then when Sid White sold the farm, he actually offered my father, my family, a house that we were living in. And my father [04:00] was not ready to retire and work at a dairy. Because that’s what it was. So he applied for an estate, Amelia Peabody’s Estate, in Dover, Mass. And so we all moved to Dover. LJ: Wonderful. DD: And that’s...and I had graduated, of course, in ’62. I’m dyslexic, which my daughter told me. I went right into assembly, and I loved working for... with my hands. In assembly, in electronics, yes. LJ: So, you worked in companies that were there? In Dover? DD: I worked at Sylvania Electronics off 128. Then I worked for Honeywell, and then I worked for several companies that made [05:00] minimally invasive surgical equipment and the cameras. And that’s where I retired from, a company called ConMed. LJ: Yeah, I remember you were saying that. 3 �DD: Yeah. So I retired. But you know Social Security, so I do have a couple of care jobs that I go to. I have a neighbor and then I do go to Hopkinton to help a lady now and then, when she needs it. LJ: Where are you living now? DD: I’m living in Hudson, Mass. I live in a mobile home park. Which, fortunately, I’m able to, you rent the land, and I have a small mortgage, so... LJ: Mm-hmm. That’s good. DD: And I love to work anyway. LJ: Uh-huh, I do too. DD: So I try to keep busy. Of course, the yard work has gotten to me right now, in the back. I have a garden. [06:00] Tomato plants, rhubarb. LJ: That’ll keep you going. DD: Yeah, oh yeah. I can’t be lazy. LJ: Rhubarb is the best. DD: I love rhubarb, I love it. LJ: Oxalic acid. DD: I make rhubarb jam. And now that the strawberries are out locally... LJ: Oh, strawberry rhubarb. DD: I buy local. So, I will purchase local strawberries and make some strawberry rhubarb jam. LJ: And strawberry rhubarb pie? DD: I will drop some off for you sometime. (laughter) LJ: Tell me, were you an only child? 4 �DD: No. I have a sister. She’s six years older than me. She was born in ’37. And my father changed jobs, so she was actually brought up [07:00] with my Aunt Ruthie in Hyde Park. And I was born six years later. I was brought up by my mother and father, and every weekend, they would come and visit. So, my sister and I, we love each other, but we are totally, totally different. I guess to put it easy, she’s a city girl, I’m a farm girl. LJ: It sounds like that. DD: Yeah. LJ: That you’re really adapted to nature. DD: Yeah. She likes the city. I’m going to visit her on the way home after I see my daughter. SB: Does she still live in Hyde Park? DD: She’s living in Roslindale with her son right now. My brother-in-law has just had a pacemaker put in, not that I’m laughing. But it’s been one thing after another. [08:00] We’re all there, I just figure, yeah. LJ: Indeed we are. So, what were your interests when you went to school, high school, or... DD: High school? I did like history. LJ: Did you like sports? DD: Did I like school? LP: No, sports. DD: Oh, sports. Oh, yeah. I loved gym. I thoroughly loved gym. Didn’t like the gym suits. But, of course, back then you’re very conscious of what you looked like. And I, well, the bloomers, the whole bit. But I did love gym. I wasn’t real good at baseball, but I enjoyed it. I really liked volleyball. Yeah so, but that was about it, because after high school, I aimed right for work. 5 �LJ: So when you said you did assembly work, [09:00] could you explain to somebody who doesn’t quite know what that means, what it means? DD: Okay. Assembly work is... My first job was taking wires and putting them on a board, and then what they call lacing them up. So we tied them up and that would be a harness. Then that would be put in a piece of equipment. My first job was for Sylvania Electronics in Needham, and we were actually building the communication equipment for the Vietnam War. I had the secret clearance, so I was doing the final assembly of this equipment that was going to be put in the Jeeps. Yeah, so that’s basically what it is. Assembly is putting things together, yeah. [10:00] My last job was a company call ConMed that I retired from. We were working through a microscope, and I was taking and soldering wires onto little tiny PC boards. Then I was testing them. Then I was assembling them into and attaching them to cameras that were about the size of your small finger. We would attach it, then I would test it, and then it would be encapsulated in silicone. And that was all. Then that could be attached, and the surgeon could insert that in and see what the inside was like. So that prevented them from doing major opening surgery. LJ: Yeah. That’s then what has come as an improvement in surgery. [11:00] DD: Yes. But I started out working down. From Sylvania, I went [to] Honeywell, and then I got into the medical assembly, which was very, very interesting. I was a supervisor in a clean (filtered air) room, things like that. LJ: And you had military stuff that you worked on also? DD: Yes, I had military clearance. I suppose my name’s in Washington, I don’t know. (laughter) Worries you a little bit in today’s world, but anyway... LJ: Right. But at least you know you were cleared. 6 �DD: Yeah, yes, yeah. They cleared me then. I don’t know if they would now. (laughs) LJ: Okay, so we’ve taken you through your grade school into your high school. And what were your interests in high school? [12:00] Did you like particular subjects, or... DD: To be honest, no. LJ: Was this Dover High School? DD: Andover, Andover High School. Dover’s where we moved after my graduation, when my father got a job. Yeah, then I started working. Andover, it was a good school. I know we marched in the band, and I enjoyed glee club. That’s how I got to pass. LJ: Do you like to sing, Donna? DD: I do. I don’t do much singing now, but I did enjoy singing. LJ: Okay. Could you think in your mind of girlfriends that you’ve had, or relationships that you’ve had? And how you sort of came into being as a gay woman? [13:00] Just give some background on that. DD: Okay. Well, in high school, I loved driving. And I was fortunate; my parents let me drive the car. And I always had a carful of girls. We just went around; of course we flirted with the boys. That’s more or less what my high school was. I dated a couple of gentlemen. There was one young man I liked, but his girlfriend worked at the cleaners, and my mother did, too. And so my mother told me not to go out with him, and that was fine. But in high school, there was never anybody that interested me. [14:00] I have good close, well, God bless ’em, a lot of my girlfriends have passed away. I have two left in North Andover that I do keep in touch with. But going to work at Sylvania, I actually was pursued by the gentleman that worked in the stock room. He flirted and flirted, and 7 �he even took me to one of the dances that they had at Sylvania or whatever. I did. Obviously I think your hormones are a little... LJ: They were up there. DD: Yeah, they’re moving along, yes. LJ: When you’re fifteen or sixteen. DD: So, to make it kind of quick, okay, nobody believes me, [15:00] but I got pregnant the first time I took my girdle off. We’re dating and everything. I told him I was pregnant. And he said, “Yes.” I believe a woman should have the choice, don’t get me wrong, but being on the farm, I believe in pregnancy. So I told him I never wanted to see him again, but that I would keep in touch. I did not put his name on my daughter’s birth certificate. My daughter was born, and I did get in touch with his parents, because I felt they should see her. [16:00] I kept his name, but I also kept in touch with his cousin a little bit. So I lived with my parents. My father wasn’t thrilled. My mother didn’t care; she just loved my daughter, Beth. And so, life was good. Then Sylvania had a lay-off, and I was at another division of Sylvania. There was this woman there, Dorothea Sue Birch. I’m really not sure how it happened, just that we worked beside each other, and it was so comfortable. [17:00] Really comfortable knowing her. I didn’t even realize I was being flirted with. I’ll be honest, I didn’t. I ended up going to Tyngsborough a couple times to a bar and everything. Then her roommate at the time threw her out, and she needed a place to live. I negotiated with my parents, and she paid board and 8 �moved in with us. She and my daughter got along. Nobody asked questions. We worked together for quite a while, the same company. Then I got laid off, but we lived together, period. [18:00] When Amelia Peabody passed away, my father purchased the house that we were living in. Dottie was still there. My mother had passed away. When my father passed away, we sold that house, and we bought a house in Franklin. I remember having everybody there. Paul Wynn’s seventieth birthday. Basically that’s it. It became a lot of property to have, so Dottie and I moved to Hudson, and purchased a mobile home. Dottie passed away nine years ago. We were together for forty-one years, from ’67 on. [19:00] A lot of people... Dottie had a way of not… striking people differently. Yeah, she, and I’ll be honest. Back then they used to say... there was no question that she was a lesbian. She had been in the army. Okay? She had an honorable discharge, and her family accepted her. So that’s it. I’ll be honest, to this day, I still miss her. I don’t like living alone. I have friends and family, and I wish the DOB was there nice and strong, so I could get back in touch. So, slowly but surely I’ll be... LJ: But you had your daughter. DD: Yes, yes, my daughter. LJ: Grandchild. [20:00] DD: Beg your pardon? 9 �LJ: And you had a grandchild. DD: Yes, I have a grandchild. Do you want me to tell you about her? LJ: Oh, sure. DD: Okay, Beth Ann Dimock, my daughter, had a couple of lesbian relationships. She had started a serious one, unbeknownst to everybody. They got married in ’97. Jeepers creepers, I should’ve written this all down. LJ: You’ve got -- you’re doing wonderfully. DD: After a couple of years, they decided they wanted a child. And Beth was a little old, so [21:00] Katie Boelter, now Katie Boelter Dimock, is now her wife..I’m sure it would be all right if this is information. My granddaughter was born at Mount Auburn Hospital. It was exciting, it was wonderful because I worked and had a wonderful boss. I would take a day off to babysit and help them. He would let me make that time up. For years I would make up the time; I even got a little overtime. So it worked out very well. Then the company closed, and we all got laid off, so then babysitting became easier. LJ: Yeah, yeah, now you’re babysitting. DD: Yeah, she’s eight years old now. [22:00] Now she doesn’t need much babysitting. I just have to be there if they’re busy. LJ: To make sure. DD: Yeah. They’re both teachers, so... LJ: Yeah. That’s wonderful, that’s great. Well, you’ve given us a -- set up a very clear idea of how it happened with Dottie that suddenly you were aware of the fact that this was more 10 �than just friendship. It was a love affair that you had. Had you ever had any romantic feelings before about women? DD: No, I hadn’t, to be honest. When you’re in love with nature, and watching cows birth, and even watching the bull and the cow together. Hey, when you’re on the farm you’ve got... LJ: Yeah, yeah, so it was a natural thing that just came to you. So you have now retired. DD: Yes. LJ: I wanted to ask you a couple other questions. As far as DOB is concerned, could you tell us how you learned about Daughters of Bilitis, and what was your need at that time, to contact them, or anything you want to say. DD: Yes. DOB meant a lot to us because other than going to a dark bar and [24:00] not really knowing anybody... I believe it was Dottie that found out about DOB and talked about how it started in California and everything. Dottie looked into where we could go meet. I believe it was in Cambridge, yes. What a thrill it was to meet you and Sheri and so many other people, like-minded, and to hear your stories. Even now, I want to cry over it, because it was such a thrill. I know coming home and realizing that you could have friendships, and let them know that, hey, here we are. Okay, life isn’t all roses with anybody. It was wonderful, [25:00] and I know we went to so many of the meetings. But then, traveling was a little difficult because we always lived not near Boston, Cambridge. LJ: That’s very sure, always a bit west of us. DD: DOB was a thrill, and I know it was through them I met so many people, and we invited folks up to Franklin -- all the folks we had met -- when we could. It was wonderful. 11 �LJ: Franklin was a lovely venue for you, yeah. And I know you did meet many people, and you went to many events. DD: Yes, a lot of the events that we could make it to. I couldn’t make it to all of them, but we did. Yeah, and it was through DOB that we went to the first Pride, and I can’t remember the date. [26:00] But lately I’ve been going to the Pride parades. LJ: Did you march? DD: With my daughter, yes, yes. I’ve marched. I just observed the first time. What a thrill to see all those motorcycle dykes. (laughter) Whoa! That was wonderful. LJ: Bikes, or Dykes on Bikes. DD: Yes. (laughter) LJ: That’s what it is. Well, that’s a wonderful thing. I’m glad that DOB filled a function in your life. Was there anything else that you’d like to say about the gay scene in Boston, or the lack of a gay scene? DD: I know we went to a couple of restaurants that were gay-run in Boston, and, obviously, we visited Lois and Sheri. It was a thrill to visit [27:00] you guys. It really was. And just knowing there was sort of a community. I always felt welcomed in Boston, and now Jamaica Plain, I feel welcomed in. Yeah, I really do, down there. LJ: The lesbian ZIP code? DD: Beg your pardon? LJ: The lesbian ZIP code. DD: Oh, I never heard that. LJ: It’s 02130. 12 �DD: Okay. (laughter) That’s my daughter’s ZIP code, yeah. Right across from the Arboretum [Arnold Arboretum]. LJ: A wonderful place. Do you take your daughter out to nature, I mean your granddaughter, for trips into the woods, say? DD: We go over to the Arboretum. And I walk down[28:00] to Jamaica Plain with her. She does like nature. But Katie is an artist. Beth is a reader. They’re both teachers, so this kid is doing very well. She’s writing her own stories and she’s having fun with that. LJ: That’s great. DD: And I have her draw a tree every now and then. LJ: Oh, yes. That’s wonderful. DD: Yeah. She’s good, she’s a joy, she’s a joy. LJ: I’m sure she must be a joy in your life. Okay, let’s see. Have I left anything out here? DD: I think the only reason I would’ve wanted to be straight is to have maybe two more kids. But I’m happy, I really am. [29:00] I think family is so important. Friends I make are important, but family really does... LJ: Is very important. DD: Yeah, yeah. Friends are super, they really are. But... SB: Sometimes it depends what kind of family you come from. Because if you don’t have the support that it sounds like you had, then I would think that DOB would have become your family. DD: Definitely. SB: Don’t you think? DD: Oh, I do. 13 �LJ: Became family for you. DD: I read the stories and I hear of people. As a matter of fact, one job I had, I worked beside a gentleman that came from Texas. God bless him, he was so gay. Wonderful worker, a lot of fun. [30:00] And it was at a place on Route One. Excuse me, I won’t name the company. The Portuguese gals in back of us were always talking Portuguese about him, and making comments and everything. He never let on. Well, the day they cut down on the work force --I was just there as a temp -- he turned around and explained to them how wonderful his life was, in their language. It’s too bad that they were so close-minded that they didn’t get to know him, and his partner that was sitting beside him working. I just turned around and smiled because I didn’t know what he was saying. [31:00] LJ: That’s great to hear. DD: It was very satisfying. [31:00] But DOB really was so comforting, but living out in Hudson, I just didn’t make it to the offshoots and the different programs. LJ: Very different groups that I’ve belonged in. I’ve belonged, and closed and opened. It’s a whole different world. DD: Yeah. I understand. LJ: Are there any things that you would like to cover that I haven’t covered? SB: So when you went into DOB, you went into the Old Cambridge Baptist Church? DD: Yes. SB: And were you nervous about going to this group? DD: No, I wasn’t. I think it’s because -- not that I’m a church person -- but I was comfortable there. [32:00]. I had been to that church for some other reason, for something, I can’t tell you what. So I knew where it was, and I was comfortable there, yes. No, I wasn’t 14 �nervous going to DOB. Maybe if it had been even five years earlier, I don’t know. Looking at history, it was harder with a lot of folks. God bless Dottie. No matter how feminine she dressed... LJ: She still was gay. DD: Yeah. SB: Yep, we knew. DD: What did they say, fag and drag? Or something like that. (laughter) LJ: Fag and drag. SB: Yep, so she was with you when you went to DOB? DD: Yes, oh definitely. Yeah, she was the one that looked into everything. LJ: Could I ask you one question I have in my mind? DD: Sure. [33:00] LP: You can answer it if you wish, but you don’t have to. DD: That’s all right. LP: You felt that your mother had a very close friendship, or maybe a little more than friendship with a woman? Or did you just feel that your mother was supportive, not necessarily knowing that you were in a gay relationship, but supportive of the fact that you enjoyed the company of women? DD: It’s funny, but I never talked with my mother about it. It was just... that was it. I don’t even think my father was... he believed in nature, too. Whether he questioned it, he never said boo. No, never said boo. [34:00] I have a lot of pictures of my mother with Alice Dolan. They both rode bikes and did things. To be truthful, my mother did have a drinking 15 �problem for a little bit, so they were drinking pals for a little bit. But, I know that [my mother] got over that. But, other than that, to be truthful, I... LJ: Yeah, it was just a natural, natural -DD: Yeah, I mean nothing. LJ: -- evolution. DD: There were no red flags being flashed. LJ: No. Mm-hmm. I was curious about that. SB: Well, I just have a question. A little bit more, and if you don’t want to answer -DD: No, that’s all right. SB: You know a lot of people would say that, yes, growing up on a farm and being with nature and everything, you saw basic life. [35:00] The thing is that most of what you saw, I would think, with animals was male and female. DD: Do you know when a cow is in heat, another cow will jump her? SB: No, I didn’t. DD: It happens when they’re heifers, and then they start to grow, and the cow gets in heat, meaning she has her period, the other cow will jump her. Now that didn’t tell me anything at that time. Actually, it doesn’t tell me anything now, but I think that’s interesting. SB: It is very interesting. To me, it just sounds like your parents just accepted things the way that they were. [36:00]. DD: Yes, I believe they did. Never approached me, never, about that. Accepted Dottie, they really did. SB: And she came right into your house. 16 �DD: Yeah, she came into the house. I admit the visitations with each other weren’t all the time, because I did have a daughter. But we would go away. (laughs) You know, hey, without anybody. It was comfortable. I don’t think I can describe it any other way. My father had nine brothers, and four of my cousins came to Dottie’s wake. We would go camping out in the Berkshires. [37:00] And his brothers were around. LJ: You didn’t have the angst that a lot of women have. DD: No, no. No, I really didn’t. If I’m going to have any angst at all, it would be with some of my neighbors. I’m careful with my neighbors because they know I had a woman living with me. They know I’m a lesbian, okay. But when we go to coffee, I talk to everybody, the men and the women. And I like to sing. The senior center has a thing on Fridays. LJ: This is Natick or -SB: Yeah. Hudson, right? LJ: Hudson. SB: In Hudson there’s the senior center? DD: Yeah, oh yeah. Hudson has a very good active senior center. LJ: That’s great, that’s great. [38:00] DD: But I am looking into going to the Natick one because they have an active lesbian in charge over there. There’s a story about her I could mention. I won’t give her name, just... She had a rainbow flag out in front of her house. Somebody came and degraded it and spraypainted everything. So all of her neighbors on her whole street bought rainbow flags and put them up. All the way down the street they had rainbow flags. SB: That’s fantastic. DD: And you could look up the Hudson Senior Center online and see them. 17 �SB: We will. DD: Very interesting. I mean, not the Hudson Senior Center. The Natick Senior Center [39:00]. I haven’t gotten the Hudson Senior Center that far yet. Maybe, maybe in time. LJ: There’s one in Sharon, too. DD: Oh really? DD: Oh, what a beautiful place. SB: Yes. Is that near you? Sharon? DD: Yeah, it’s not that far. Yeah. SB: They have a program. DD: Oh, really? SB: They have a once a month lunch. DD: I’m gonna look it up online. SB: Look it up. DD: I will, I’ll look it up online. SB: It’s gorgeous there. DD: The art is good, too, in Hudson, but the one in Natick is beautiful, too. SB: I’ll bet. LJ: Well, is there anything else you’d like to share with us, Donna? DD: I think what you’re doing here is wonderful. I really do. I take pride in knowing Lois and Sheri. [40:00] And I actually take pride in being asked to give my story. Even if it’s maybe a little different, I don’t know. LJ: Well, wait and see. DD: But I don’t know. 18 �LJ: This is, you’re welcome everybody, and your wonderful commentary. DD: Well, thank you very much. I’m not a very good speaker. LJ: Oh yes, you are. DD: Well, I mean in front of people, I might be... (laughs) LJ: No, you have shared a lot of information. DD: With two wonderful folks like yourself. And... LJ: Well, thank you very much. DD: Well, you’re very welcome. LJ: We really appreciate it. DD: And thank you for inviting me. SB: Is there any, I had just had one little question. DD: Sure. SB: Did you participate in any activities that you can remember, when you were in DOB? Did you go to the rap groups, or did you... DD: No. No, I’m afraid not. Back then there wasn’t an internet, and it was all word of mouth. [41:00] So the knowledge of everything just came from when we were visiting. I did go to some of the dances. But they were different places in Worcester. SB: There were dances in Worcester? I don’t know about those. LJ: Oh yeah. DD: Yeah. LJ: The Worcester dances. DD: I can’t even remember... LJ: That’s how we met everybody. 19 �SB: Is that right? DD: I wish I could remember -- Mick and Bev were two lesbians who lived in Worcester. Was it a hall? It had to be a hall, I know. LJ: It was a hall, I think it was the little Sons of Italy, or something. DD: Okay, yeah. Hall in Worcester. LJ: In Worcester, and we met the western division of the lesbian group, it was. And so we would try to get out to Worcester as much as we could. And we met Donna and Donna, I mean -DD: No, I know, that’s okay. [42:00] LJ: We all got together and sometimes it’d be, maybe twelve, fourteen people who all knew one another, went to the dances together. Had a good old time. DD: And it evolved... SB: Can I just tell one thing funny about, just because it’s Worcester? I was in California, that’s where I came out, and then I got into a relationship, and the woman I was involved with lived in Leominster. So she didn’t want to live in California, so I had to come back here. So she told me about this place and -- I think it was every Thursday night or something -we’d go to Worcester to a Chinese restaurant. And, at nine o’clock, the restaurant would close, and it’d become a lesbian bar. (laughter) DD: Oh God, I love it. LJ: Wonderful, wonderful. DD: I love it. [43:00] LJ: Well, I just have to tell you one thing about the early raps at DOB Cambridge. And that was the only way that you could get people to go, because they didn’t want to be identified, 20 �was to come up with a place where they’re supposed to meet, and it was an Arby’s, or something like that, on Massachusetts Avenue. People would come in and, of course, they wouldn’t have any names. But you had to sort of sidle up to people and say -- “Oh, we had a place at Harvard, we’re going to have a rap” -- or say, “Were you coming here, for a visit at Harvard University to have a discussion?” And they would say, “Yes.” And then about eight o’clock, we’d say, “Okay,” -- there might be five or six women -[44:00], come with us.” And we’d trot across the campus, and I’d head straight to a place where we had made the contact and were able to have the first raps. SB: Oh, my God. I didn’t know that. LJ: Oh yeah. DD: That’s wonderful. LJ: That was the way it was. Mick and Bev met that way. They came, and Bev was sort of a... Maybe we should turn it off. SB: Oh, okay. END OF DONNA DIMOCK FILE 21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Dimock, Donna Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donna Dimock, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06-20 Description An account of the resource Interview with Donna Dimock for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Dimock, Donna; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/e822e4cac7a7972b640b8d8ef64df977.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=iqLqIzADm9o2kIpxxF6CU1CcDiPLQK1rtxY5fSYLh950eTul9nzttn-STEnvnhYGGr-mX8rudIJ78uN9kSY7XUBIdy5w0iOBsolwXE-d6W9yxv6m9D7kkggvdO8wT%7EAJoJRMolRyvlvoGj-6MQitxG6yF3yn8QEYxvqksaGNA4PKtYj2kewHafyR-glxjPqGNu8Tysic2MnS4B73Muhbb-P3zo%7EjKDTpT8Nw105CPS%7EzCg9FPtlW4Kihqnhjc%7EODMvkslASqNHMyeqPjAb3ialljZKVOyNL1qNzLw-aLH1lm3WzrKKjR53%7EVrYbek35u7gUyLJFjPQNXzNVwHKqbhw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9a7e448e8b5c84c8bd200c6994981f38 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/358a202558e9b65f36aa18afb6dade43.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=J8qsM0LXJW7u30p3evgvSm2trD2sY1Fqo4oodupwnqGfFoRlXpuwbP9iZhIQcl0y52zUSiY7snX4PVIKpnxBQs4mmc3jtshkZMYX9F-ZeTIm76Ugy7XPZvdUXK8TQDYYrwfuEHL%7EE14kXBIW8D09rXX0lFrVBmqJgoMaN0mw14Lr%7EpJha9t4t8SPRpltoSkqjrJhqGwsdtgPqaQKMJ55763lTdR0vjN8rBR23gxSp4TQbcobXTqtAnvTeB0Rs4JvIm%7EGqmw5iZd93QEN7hv%7EvoRDxUKgMAxw7wV44hOIJW61HP5mng386OSAExpleNkznJ2dBMHCUwqMh%7ExEYtLDWg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 613861bea7c159f2836e3b4045613ca8 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/e126426f066b8a93400170dc508c7979.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=B7-7P2vco9xkrXZYcLgR37ExN17F8P9LtuWv2zU7Nk-Nnc8kvOLgOZUA91wYxXM8vvP2qZUDvPpJNB6zDiUHgPSam4hcmXP7Aw7OUZ%7ElzbqNUXSd0f7pO1B85p86ICwTTSikq-aBxXHr0gU7StFnbDW5gKgw%7E7nsCslKPMoX5lpt%7EcT1UoUO42UWAZi-Ymyls%7EkGHvpayh3u0P3IM1dzXXGHjSDkfR0q0bvWLGQSD85XBSiJ5wwundCWbDkNJXcGFrKnKPyWA1YLzHPYtmwfCgYwHO%7ECGTFoDvWNrzTc2Su40ogIYYmaqRHZAnVa12ALYgBIX7BIiXsQazD0g5E9oA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 5e503d49e73e6a364389eed9b0ce48ee PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Devra and Jeri Interviewers: Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, Laura Catanzaro July 18, 2019 1 �Devra/Jeri Interview, Part 1 of 2 LOIS JOHNSON: You’ll do the intro, please? SARAH BOYER: Okay. Today is July 18th, 2019. And I’m at Spring House with Lois Johnson, Laura Catanzaro, Devra and Jeri -SB: And this interview is with Devra. And Lois is going to be doing it. So, we’re going to start right now. LJ: Okay. Well this is a wonderful day. I haven’t seen you for a long time, Devra. This, what we’re doing today, and this, I -- we were just talking about, like recorded, is for [00:01:00] a history of Boston Daughters of Bilitis, which was an organization which had headquarters both in Boston and Cambridge at various times. And I am here with Devra. D: Mm-hmm. LJ: Who was a very important person to us, because she maintained our office, she did organizations of everything, she wrote The Phantom Librarian. She was a very busy woman at that time. Plus doing everything else that she was doing. So Devra, I would like to ask you if we could start this off by asking where you are now, and tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, where you lived, where you -- when you were a child, what your childhood was like, [00:02:00] where did you go to school, what your interests were, your hobbies, etc. SB: Devra, this is for context, it’s just for background. LJ: Yeah. LC: And feel free to answer in any way you want. SB: Any way you want to answer, if you want to make it -- 2 �LC: Including not answering. LJ: (laughter) DEVRA: Well, I grew up in upstate New York. The Finger Lakes area, where it was very beautiful. Went to Sarah Lawrence College, which, when I applied to it, was a women’s college, which was one of the reasons I applied, and yet when I got there, I discovered that that was the first year they were going to start admitting guys. END OF Devra/Jeri Interview, Part 1 of 2 BEGINNING OF Devra/Jeri Interview, Part 2 of 2 LJ: Excuse me. You go ahead. JERI: Sarah Lawrence. D: Yes, they started admitting guys, which I was annoyed about. But there weren’t very many of them, and they were all gay anyway, as it turned out, so it didn’t matter too much. But then, I went to Boston, because my friends were going to Boston, and I didn’t have any plans whatsoever after graduation. (laughter) So we were living in Brookline, and I ended up being a special student at Harvard for a year, and then a graduate student in the Medieval Studies Department. Or did I start out in the -- I think I started out in the Celtic Department, and then moved into the Medieval Studies Department. Because I wanted to study Welsh for absolutely no good reason. I was just fascinated by it. But since I was [00:01:00] in the Boston area, somehow I heard about DOB, and I don’t know how. 3 �LJ: Yes. It’s always, I always like to find out how people found out about us. (laughter) D: I don’t know how I found about it. Who can remember? This was what, 40, 50 years ago? LJ: I know, I know, I know. D: We were living in Brookline. And, but somehow I actually went to some meetings, by myself, on the T, you know? Like from Brookline. And I like, found the office and everything, I was impressed with myself. Because I was still basically this small town girl from upstate New York. But fortunately, Boston’s not that big a city, so (laughter) I sort of got used to it. But no, the meetings were, did we call them raps yet at that point? Or did they -LJ: Oh we did, we did. D: We did? Okay. LJ: It was the 1970s. D: Yeah, it was, that’s right, because I graduated in ’73, so yeah. And I liked the meetings. But I don’t -- this was the old office, the one that was in downtown Boston. LJ: That’s right, [00:02:00] the 419. That’s the first one [you?] came to. D: Yeah. So I didn’t really get -- I didn’t really get involved until it moved to Cambridge, because I had also moved to Cambridge, and the office, it turned, out was across the street from my apartment. So that was so convenient that I went to all the meetings -J: Convenient. 4 �D: -- and some, I had a key, because they could always call me to run over and open the office if they needed, if someone needed it open, because I was right there. LJ: I know, you were always there, and I think you organized the office. Was there a library, and -D: I organized the library, I don’t remember organizing the office particularly. But -LJ: Well, I remember that you were there more than other people were able to be, or -D: I was -- I lived -- LJ: -- wanted to be, or whatever. D: It was convenient. Also, I stored some of my stuff in the office. The office had a big, big huge cabinet, and I lived in a tiny one room studio. So I used to pay DOB so much per month so I could store some stuff in that cabinet. (laughter) Because we could use any money we could get at that point, as I recall. (laughter) LJ: Yeah. D: But it was very convenient for me. LJ: Everybody contributed to [00:03:00] an agonizing thing of getting enough for rent every month. D: Yeah. LJ: Which was then at the magnificent price of $75. (laughter) As I remember. D: The old Cambridge Baptist, that was a nice place. 5 �LJ: Could you tell us just a little bit more about yourself as a child? Was you, did you come from an academic family, or what town again did you -D: Oh, it was Corning. LJ: Corning. D: Where the -- yeah. LJ: Yeah. D: But we spent summers in Hammondsport, on Lake Keuka. Or before that, on Lake Lamoka, which who knows where that was. It was mainly mud, but that’s where I grew up. In the summers was Lake Lamoka, in the middle of nowhere, going barefoot all summer, and the bottoms of my feet are still like shoe leather. It’s great. LJ: Wow. D: I can walk on anything. (laughter) I don’t imagine kids [00:04:00] grow up like that much anymore. Nobody ever knew where we were when I was a kid. You were just gone all day. J: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. D: You came home for dinner. You were in the woods. LJ: Did you have brothers and sisters? D: I have one brother, who’s in Atlanta somewhere. But yeah, we were just - LJ: What did your family do? What -- D: My father was an oral surgeon and a dentist. My mother sort of ran the - office, (laughter) all the finances. But my father had wanted to be a concert pianist, but 6 �during the Depression, your family said, “You’re going into dentistry, because you can make a living that way, because Uncle Al has a dental lab.” (laughter) So, he said, “well, someday I’m going to have a Steinway grand.” And he did. There it was in the living room. LJ: And did he continue to play? D: He did. You know, just for fun. And well, he took some lessons, but it was just an ambition -- they made us take piano lessons, but I was no good [00:05:00] at it. LJ: Yeah. D: And I didn’t want to do it. Eventually they let me stop, and everybody said, you’ll be sorry when you’re older that you didn’t keep up with the piano lessons. And I was never sorry, because my hands never grew big enough to span an octave! (laughter) So there. LJ: Yeah, so there. D: And my brother got all the musical talent, I didn’t get any. LJ: Oh, they got him to study piano too? D: He, yeah. And he -- guitar, and he could play a lot of instruments. LJ: So the -- D: But the only thing I was interested in doing basically was reading and daydreaming. So I grew up to write fantasy novels, because there was nothing else I was fit to do. I have a PhD from Harvard in medieval studies that I’d never used for anything much. A little bit, I did some translations. LJ: In what studies? 7 �D: Medieval studies. LJ: Medieval studies. D: I did some translations out of Middle English and medieval Latin, but never used it for much of anything. LJ: Except for your background. (laughter) To write fantasy novels. D: Yeah, they -- my knowledge [00:06:00] of medieval history did not hinder me at all in writing the fantasy novels. (laughter) LJ: I remember that you were writing some when you were at DOB. Could you maybe talk a little about them? D: Oh, they were written under the name JF Rivkin, with a friend of mine. The first two were with a friend of mine, and then I had to write the second two myself, because she moved to California, which was inconvenient. But -- (laughter) LJ: I remember they had some female characters in them. D: Oh yeah. Female barbaric mercenaries, and female witches. Well, what was she? Magician, I guess. LJ: Yeah. And how many did you write of them? D: There were four in that series. Later, Jeri and I wrote a two-book series. It was different. But had some things in common. LJ: Because you were at Harvard, getting your PhD, yeah. D: Mm-hmm. LJ: And that took several [00:07:00] years. D: Oh it took (laughter) it takes forever. I was a graduate student forever, like nine years or something, before I noticed that the members of my committee were like, 8 �retiring. (laughter) Oh God! I can’t break in new ones; I’ve got to finish this thing. Then I taught for 10 years at BU, just teaching part-time English. It had nothing to do with my degree, it was just -LJ: Oh, you were teaching at BU? D: Yeah. LJ: I -- you know, that I never knew. Oh. D: It was later. LJ: That was later on. D: It was while I was writing more of the books, and so I was teaching part- time, but I liked that. LJ: Did you like, you liked teaching? D: Yeah, I did for the first eight years or so. And then the students just started to become really different. And I didn’t know how to handle them. LJ: And you just maybe got tired of it. D: Well, I didn’t get tired of the teaching, but the students were, they didn’t have any idea how to behave in a classroom. I don’t know what their, what they had been doing in school [00:08:00] up to that point, but they had no actual concept of, it was strange to me -LJ: Yeah. Yeah. D: -- people who were coming into teaching at that time probably were used to it, but I was just astonished by it. Not to mention that they didn’t have any idea what a sentence sounds like, but I could deal with that. But their attitudes were just so strange. LJ: Yeah. 9 �D: And now, they would all be on some kind of electronic thing all the time, I’m sure I couldn’t handle them at all. But no, the teaching I always missed, but I was already missing the teaching the last couple of years I was there. Also, the administration didn’t want you to make them learn anything; they basically wanted you to babysit three times a week for an hour. And I’m like, I have better things to do, (laughter) you know? LJ: At BU? D: Yeah. No, at BU. They just didn’t want you to actually make the students learn something, which I felt was my job, but they wanted you to just humor them, babysit them, pass them along. And I’m like, no. LJ: These were undergraduates, obviously. D: Yeah, undergraduates. [00:09:00] But they really needed to be taught things. (laughter) Like to think, and -LJ: I know. D: -- oh well. SB: Was this in the ’70s, ’80s? D: Eighties, was it? I think ’80s. J: Yeah, this was all in the ’80s, because -- D: Yeah. Yeah. J: -- it was in the late ’80s that we all had the year that the world ended. D: We did? J: Yeah, that was the crash of ’88, ’89. That’s when we had the house in -- D: Oh that! Right. No yeah, I was still teaching then, yeah, right. J: Yeah. And so you were teaching until that point. 10 �D: That was the year that everyone we knew lost their jobs and everything, LJ: Oh, Devra, since we’re talking specifically about DOB, and everyone has yeah. this question, or tries to answer this. When did you first start, or how did you first start, feeling that you had romantic feelings towards women? [00:10:00] It’s a hard question to answer sometimes. D: Yes, I remember that when I was a child, my favorite books almost always had a girl in them who would be disguised as a boy. For some reason, I loved books like that. And I didn’t make the connection until many, many years later. (laughter) That oh, that’s why I liked those books, I like androgyny. But I don’t know, when -- also, I would feel like when I saw couples in public, when I was in college, a straight couple in college like necking on the T or something, I would think, “Ick.” But if I saw two women together, I would think, “Aww.” And think, “Hmm, (laughter) what’s up with that?” And, you know, and I read Patience and Sarah, of course. LJ: Oh yes, yes, yes. D: A lot of people said that was it. That was the one. LJ: That was it. D: And -- LJ: Nancy Drew? (laughter) D: Oh. Oh, are you kidding? I adored Nancy Drew, and I was fascinated by her friend George, because I didn’t realize that at the time, many women had the name George. I didn’t know that. [00:11:00] So I’m like, this girl’s named George, she’s 11 �fascinating. You know? (laughter) Like anything that seemed androgynous just really grabbed me in those days. LJ: Yours was the literary approach. (laughter) D: I don’t know. But... LJ: And when was that? When did you meet your first woman that was of true interest to you? D: Oh goodness, when was it? LJ: I know we’re looking back 50 years, ladies, but -- (laughs) D: Yeah. Oh well, but Gail, right. Because I was at school with Gail. And when we’d both moved to the Boston area. She did first, and then my friends and I moved there, then we got back together. And people would tell me that when I was on the phone with Gail, I would be on the phone with Gail for an hour, and she said, “You would be laughing hysterically for an hour.” [00:12:00] And I was like, “Really? You know, I didn’t know that.” So at one point, finally, Gail and I, we used to do sleepovers and stuff, because it was a schlep to get to Brookline from where she was in Somerville, and late at night. Like one night, we like, you know, like, ‘Where’s your hand? I want your hand.’ Because I was sleeping next to her bed on the floor, like somebody said that, I don’t even remember which of us. So we lay, we both fell asleep holding hands, and eventually everybody else moved away, and we moved in together in Cambridge, and I don’t know, I think one night, I just pretty much assaulted her or something. (laughter) Not really, but we were in the same bed, and I just sort of started kissing her. And she was like, ‘Good, I was wondering when this would happen.’ And (laughter) we weren’t sure what had happened. But we just sort of took it from there, and we were together for 12 �some time. But then she went to graduate school in Philly, and I was in graduate school in Boston, so it wasn’t so much [00:13:00] that we broke up as it just kept stretching. But it’s not -- it wasn’t there was -- there wasn’t a snap -LJ: Stretching in different places. D: -- where things broke, it’s just that things kept stretching further and further apart. LJ: Yeah. D: But -- LJ: Was that a few years that that happened over? D: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. D: Yeah. But it was just too difficult to keep up anything very close at that distance. We never actually stopped seeing one another, so to speak. And she was with some one woman for like, 30 years, and they broke up. (laughter) And -LJ: After 30 years. D: But we’re still like, you know, best buds. LJ: Yeah. D: So. LJ: It seems that at least from my experience, and from what I’ve heard other people, people might break up, but they still -D: Yes. LJ: -- eventually become friends. D: Yeah. 13 �LJ: Were you friends with her for quite a while afterwards? D: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Forever. We always were in touch. Always went to see each other -LJ: Yeah. D: -- like I’m going there [00:14:00] in, next week. We’re driving to, (laughter) we’re stopping (inaudible). But yeah. LJ: So you sort of figured it out eventually? D: Yeah. LJ: And what was happening? D: Sort of made it up as we went along. But that was when I was living in Brookline, and then we were living together in Cambridge for some time, because she was working at ABT, and I was at Harvard. J: Then she got that job teaching. D: Yeah, she left to go to graduate school in Philly. Oh no, she was at BU, at Boston University for -- no, Boston College for a while, wasn’t she? I think. I don’t know. But anyway, eventually she went to Philly, and then I moved to this little tiny oneroom thing across from the Old Cambridge Baptist. So then I started getting more involved with DOB, because it was right there. And I had, you know, one or two other women that I had flings with, [00:15:00] but nothing serious. And then I had a long affair with a guy, and then I decided basically that I wasn’t attracted to either men or women anymore. (laughter) So! LJ: Nothing like honesty. 14 �D: Yeah. Yeah I just really couldn’t do relationships. (laughter) You know? It’s too -LJ: Too complicated? D: Oh, yeah. There’s other people involved. It’s just... LJ: So we, you had talked initially a little bit about finding DOB. But as with [all of us?], we’re never quite sure how you found it. But you did find it. And what would you say it -- what role it played in your life? Did it play a helpful role? What were your feelings about it? [00:16:00] D: I did meet my first girlfriend there actually, before Gail. I mean before Gail and I actually got together. We knew each other, visiting and talking on the phone, but I actually met the first woman I slept with at DOB. But that was like a brief thing; it was nice. But what role did it play? At that point, it was -- I don’t know. It was certainly part of what I was going through, trying to -LJ: Yeah, what you were going -- D: -- find myself! LJ: You were trying to figure yourself out. D: Yeah, and DOB was part of that, really. LJ: It was -- D: It was -- LJ: -- hopefully supportive to some degree. D: Yeah no, it was an option that was good. But, and I liked the people who were involved; [they] seemed like people I could relate to. But it was really more when I lived right across the street that I really got more involved in it. [00:17:00] 15 �LJ: I always thought that was extremely convenient for you. (laughter) D: It was, yes. LJ: And as a result, you -- as I remember it, you were very supportive in your -- you did so much for, you maintained the phone, I remember that. D: For a while -- yeah, I remember doing the phone for a long time. LJ: Remember doing the phone? D: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. D: And that was interesting, because you’d get all kinds of calls. I used to have a log of the calls, but I don’t know what happened to it. LJ: I know. D: I don’t know if anyone still has it. It would have been left in the office, I guess, although that probably wasn’t the best place for it. LJ: And you probably had to deal with many things, such as people who just wanted to come, but other people who were on the verge of suicide. We had a lot of those calls. Yeah, did you have stuff like that come in? D: I may have. The only thing I could find was one page from the log, because it was the cover of the notebook. I don’t know what happened to the pages. And it just says, “Call from woman [00:18:00] wanting to come to rap, for directions, also location of Saints.” “Call from woman new to area for info on raps, and about the Gay Nurses Alliance. She says, and how to find local information on events.” People wanted to know like, ‘how do I do this?’ LJ: Wanted to know what to do. 16 �D: And you could refer them to the GCN, or -- LJ: Yeah. D: -- and then the women’s, there was a women’s group in Central Square that was very active -LJ: Yes. Yeah. D: -- And they had a lot of information. You could refer people to them, and they could tell you where to go. Women came in to ask, because while you were manning the phone, the office was open, so people would sometimes come in. She came in to ask how to meet other women, how to make friends. She’s unable to make the first move. “The usual problem,” I wrote here. (laughter) “Assured [her] that everyone feels the same.” ‘Told her about softball, and the picnic -- guess we had a picnic. (laughter) I found several listings of groups nearer to her home in New Hampshire. [00:19:00] She has two kids, needs a sitter.’ But I gave her the Lesbian Mothers listing. ‘Belongs to support group, mostly college kids, she says, very unhelpful.’ So, (laughter) so we were there for all -- people at all different levels of need. LJ: All those places. Yeah. D: More than just, you know, like she was saying, just college kids. LJ: How many days a week were you in the office? I can’t remember. D: Oh, I don’t know. Maybe once a week, because this says 7/2, and this says 7/9. ‘Call for rap info, topic, and other activities this week.’ ‘Call from man who thinks his wife is tending towards lesbianism.’ (laughter) ‘Should he stop her?’ (laughter) Wrong person to ask that question, like no, of course not! He, quote -LJ: Oh my God! 17 �DK: -- quote, “Doesn’t mind if she does it with a woman as long as she still does it with him,” unquote. (laughter) I took this down word [for word] -- “He thinks she’s AC/DC at this point.” (laughter) [00:20:00] “I suggested he talk with her honestly.” (laughter) “I suggested that he read Loving Someone Gay, told him about Harvard Community” -- HCHS, what was that? LJ: Yeah, HCHS. J: HS. LJ: Harvard -- D: Community Health Services, like -- J: Yeah. LJ: Yeah. D: Because they had family counseling, told him about that. LJ: Oh yes. D: Also suggested that probably everybody is AC/DC, it is perfectly normal. And she could contact us to discuss it, if she likes. (laughter) SB: That’s [good]. D: This is the one page that I still had from the log. J: I’m going to photograph that. LJ: That’s wonderful. I knew there was some good stuff in [there]. (laughter) D: But yeah, but a lot of people called up, they were depressed, and worried that there was something wrong with them, and you’d spend a lot of time reassuring them -LJ: Yes. 18 �D: -- that this was fine, this was normal, this was just human, you know? [00:21:00] LJ: What year was this? Do you think? D: I can’t, it would have been in the ’70s. LJ: In the ’70s somewhere. LC: The ’70s. I’m going to run the restroom while you talk, and I’ll be right DK: Possibly late ’70s. LJ: Okay. D: I just don’t know. LJ: But in the ’70s? D: I think [it is?]. LJ: Tell us about The Phantom Librarian. D: Oh, I’ve got the entire thing, which you can have, because I made you a back. copy. It goes on forever. Look at this. LJ: That’s wonderful. J: Look at that. LJ: That’s wonderful. D: And there’s a preface to it, but I don’t remember who wrote it. Because someone wanted to sell copies of it at some event, so she wrote a preface, but I don’t remember who it was who wrote the preface. SB: How did the idea come up and why was it entitled Phantom Librarian? 19 �D: (laughter) It’s all in the introduction that she made me write! Whoever it was, possibly someone named Stephanie? I just am not sure anymore. Says “The origins [00:22:00] of the mysterious Phantom Librarian of DOB are shrouded in the mists of enigma and obscurity.” I went back and read through this whole -LJ: (laughter) Oh my goodness. D: -- thing and I’m like, oh my God, this is wordy: “Who was she? Where did she come from? Why did she use so many adjectives? You may have asked yourself, is there any truth to the rumor that she was a world renowned literary figure and Nobel laureate who wrote the column under a pseudonym to avoid publicity? If you haven’t asked yourself that, don’t bother. I just made it up. The truth is that the Phantom Librarian adopted her spectral sobriquet –" LJ: My God. D: “-- simply because there was, in 1981” -- I gave a date – “no such position as DOB librarian. There was a library of sorts, if you can call one bookcase of miscellaneous donations a library, but no one was responsible for organizing or maintaining, much less increasing the collection. And the sight of those neglected, haphazard volumes inflamed the chronic bibliomania of yours truly.” [00:23:00] I never shut up, do I? “And at the next business meeting, I announced my intention of weeding out the inappropriate books, selling them to the used bookstores of Harvard Square, and buying some new lesbian titles with the proceeds. Perhaps recognizing the imprudence of coming between me and books, the members and officers present raised no objections to this plan. Soon I was actively soliciting donations of books for the library, and used paperbacks to sell, and to my astonishment, the membership responded with enthusiasm. 20 �Before I knew it, the books had outgrown the shelves, and I found myself actually cataloging the collection.” Yeah, people just sent us boxes full of books to sell, and I could use the money to buy actual lesbian books for those shelves, (laughter) and it was amazing. “Another business meeting rolled around, and the aforementioned members and officers were extravagant with their congratulations for the success of my efforts. Then, having softened me up, the sneaky little DOBs, that’s the female equivalent of SOBs, you understand, (laughter) [00:24:00] suggested that I prepare a report on the new, improved library, to be enclosed with the next newsletter to the membership. Mind you, there was still no such position as DOB librarian. We had a corresponding secretary, a recording secretary, a treasurer, etc., all duly elected, but I was self-appointed. So my role was strictly unofficial, and I intended to keep it that way. Nobody could remove me from office if there was no such office. Anyway, since there was officially no DOB librarian, but I obviously was the DOB librarian, I figured I officially didn’t exist. (laughter) Makes perfect sense, right? It did to me. So when I wrote the first supplement to the newsletter, I signed myself “The Phantom Librarian.”” J: That’s perfect. D: It says, “’And the rest is history.’ Note that it is not herstory. That usage was an amusing pun at first, but once people started using it seriously, it got old fast. The word history, being Greek, is completely unrelated to the English word “his.” If you must make feminist puns, at least make ones that are linguistically accurate! (laughter) Spell it [00:25:00] hystery, H-Y-S-T-E-R-Y, incorporating the Greek root hyster, which means womb! As in, hysterectomy. Now that’s feminist etymology!” See? I just went on like that. 21 �LJ: I love it. SB: Was New Words around? [Note: the Feminist Bookstore in Inman Square, Cambridge] D: New Words, we were trying to think of the name of it! J: That was the name of it, yeah. D: Just today, we couldn’t think. Yes, I’m pretty sure it was around at that point, yeah. J: Yes. D: I liked that place. J: That was great. LJ: Oh my God, that was beautiful. D: And it just, it goes on, and on, and on, and on. LJ: Yeah. I forgot to ask you the $64 question one always asks, just going back a ways into what we’re talking about. When you came out, were your parents, your parents were still around, obviously. D: Yes. LJ: And did you inform them? D: Yeah. Officially it -- oh, I remember, I said [00:26:00] something like, do you realize that Gail and I are a couple? And they were like, ‘Yeah that’s a big shock.’ (laughter) You know, they were not particularly surprised. LJ: So they were quite easy with it? D: Yeah, as parents go, yeah. LJ: Yeah. Wonderful. 22 �D: Yeah, my father said, just don’t – ‘Be careful, he said, not to, you know, enrage -- don’t get into any dangerous thing where someone is going to be enraged at you because you’re gay.’ That isn’t how he put it, but he said like ‘Don’t offend the notions of the neighbors,’ something like -- it was a quote from Jurgen, the book Jurgen, but I knew what he meant. And (laughter) -LJ: Did your brother have kids? D: Yeah, he has one -- I have this fabulous niece. LJ: Wonderful. And what is your, what’s your current experience? You’re retired. [00:27:00] D: Yeah, I did copyediting for ages, after I was teaching at BU for 10 years, and that just-- I couldn’t do it anymore. I got into freelance copyediting, and we had a business, Foxxe Editorial Services, which you’ll see, that’s still our email address, isn’t it? J: Yeah. D: Yeah. J: Because why should we change it? D: Yeah. And -- LJ: And where are you living now? D: Malden. J: Malden. LJ: Malden? D: Just north of Boston. J: In a house that was built in 1910. 23 �D: Nineteen five. J: Nineteen oh five. It’s an Edwardian house. D: Yeah. Small. LJ: Close to -- J: Well it’s four bedrooms, it’s not that small. (laughter) D: I know, but there aren’t any like, hallways, so it’s all (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) like this. It’s small, but it has -- it’s small but it has lots of rooms. It’s weird. (laughter) LJ: Close to the Melrose line, right? J: Mm-hmm. LJ: Yeah. D: Yeah, it is. J: Right on the Melrose line, really. D: Yeah, pretty much. LJ: So, what street is it on? [Just for] my curiosity. D: Mount Vernon. J: Which is off of Salem. D: [00:28:00] Yeah, it’s just off Salem. J: It’s practically across from the high school. LJ: Yeah. On Salem Street, yeah. D: Yeah, we’re near the high school. LJ: Wonderful. Well, let’s see. 24 �D: And not far from the library, which is important. Because what I mostly -- J: She’s still organizing the library. (laughter) D: What I’m doing now mostly is volunteer work at the -- for the Friends of the Library. LJ: You’re not -- do you mean the central library? D: The, the Malden Public Library. LJ: With the Romanesque architecture? D: It’s so beautiful, it’s a Richardson building, and it has gargoyles! LJ: It’s a Richardsonian, yeah. D: It’s a wonderful building. LJ: Yeah. Wonderful. Yes. It was endowed by the -- D: So I belong to the Friends of the Library. LJ: -- oh, the people who manufactured the furniture. (inaudible). [Don’t, do have a?] Davenport. Davenport, that’s what it was. SB: Oh that’s right, they were in Cambridge, Davenport. LJ: Yeah. D: Yeah. LJ: Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to say? Other issues you’d like to [00:29:00] discuss? D: (laughter) You know, I think DOB helped a lot of women. At the time, there was nowhere else to go. That was it. I mean there were women’s groups, but there really was nothing else. I mean, we were sort of a conduit for all kinds of information, 25 �and referrals, and (laughter) things we weren’t at all qualified to do, but nobody else was doing them. Someone had to. So many people came through the office. LJ: It was amazing, the people who came to the raps, and people who came to our office. It’s amazing. D: Yeah, after some years, there started to be more organizations, and there were other lesbian organizations, so we didn’t feel so pressured. LJ: No. D: That we had to help do everything, (laughter) and help everybody, because there were more places people could go, and there were more publications for them to look at, too. [00:30:00] So they could look at that and find exactly what, really, what they were looking for. But that wasn’t there when DOB started up. So, we filled this big gap. LJ: There was, there really was nothing besides, for women. D: No! LJ: For men, there was Mattachine. D: Oh yeah. J: Oh yeah. LJ: A couple of other organizations. J: Homophile, something. LJ: But that was it. Is there anything else you would like to talk about in connection? LC: Did you march with DOB in the Pride parade? D: Yeah, several. (laughter) 26 �SB: Right. Several of them. What did that feel like? D: Well that was -- SB: I have to tell you that I was on the, in the crowd there, hiding. D: Oh! (laughter) D: Oh, it was fun. They rang the church bells when we went by. LJ: Oh yes, and the -- that’s the Arlington Street [00:31:00] Church -- D: That’s the one, yes. LJ: -- yeah. D: When the parade went by, they would ring the bells. LJ: Yeah. D: Which felt good. And that, you know, you’d see the cops, and they were always very nice. We used to wonder. (laughter) LJ: So -- D: But they were -- they would be actually protective -- there would sometimes be nut bags there, yelling at us, and the cops would -LJ: There were always nut bags on the sidewalks. D: But the cops would protect us. It was nice. LJ: Yeah. So, yeah. More than the current situation with Monsieur Asshole, I mean anyway. (laughter) D: Which one? LJ: Which one? They’re all in Washington. 27 �LC: Well the top dog. LJ: But it’s true, I remember the bells ringing, and -- D: Yeah. LJ: -- people marching down Charles Street. F2: Yeah. LJ: And going to the, everything that was going on down at the plaza. D: Yeah. But it was a celebration, [00:32:00] and it felt like one. LJ: Were you in on the making of the DOB banner? D: I remember it, but I don’t remember if I had any real role in making it or LJ: Yeah. It was at our house -- D: I remember it being there. LJ: -- where we had about 10 people working on it, and some-- one person -- D: I could have been, but I just don’t remember. LJ: Yeah. One person we needed to drill a few holes, and one person was not not. too careful with the drill -D: Ooh, [terrible?]. LJ: -- and they drilled a hole in the wall. (laughter) LJ: Which remained until the day that we moved out. D: I remember we took turns carrying it. LJ: That’s right, that’s right. 28 �D: Because it was, but I don’t remember if I was there for the making of it or not. It’s possible, but I just don’t remember. LJ: Did you come to the, the socials at our house? D: [00:33:00] I remember the one where -- LJ: One fifty-six -- D: -- Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon were there. I know I was there for that. LJ: Yes. You -- yes, I remember that. D: And I might have been there at other ones, too. LJ: That was the one where the cat sat on the cake. (laughter) D: That I don’t recall, but it’s easy to believe. That’s what cats do. SB: That’s great! LJ: He was very angry at the fact that so many people were coming into his D: Oh, they don’t like that. LJ: So he decided to sit on the cake. Anyway, this is not my interview. house. (laughter) It’s yours. But (inaudible). J: It’s so good though. LJ: Okay. Let’s see. Ladies, do you have anything else you’d like to ask LC: I have a couple of questions. The first one is kind of, you know, Devra? intellectual. And it’s around the notion of identity. Did you -- was, do you feel like your identity [00:34:00] was formed in any way, evolved in any -- you know, or was your identity -- okay, I am someone who is in medieval, the medieval world. Or I’m in, you 29 �know, what I’m doing now, in terms of what I’m writing, was there a kind of identification with sexuality, really, or was it more like oh, I love these women? This woman that I am with, let’s say the first woman you were with for a long time in a serious relationship, Gail, did you, did that, did it feel like oh my God, eye opening, I am changing the world as a lesbian? I am a lesbian. Or was it, this is my personal, you know, the way I love, and it’s not about so much a big identity I’m going to take on now, because of the way I love? I mean, this is convoluted [00:35:00] as a question. Answer it however you’d like. D: I think I liked the idea of being different from the mainstream, because I had never felt that I belonged to the mainstream in any way, even when I was a little kid. So, it was nice to find a niche that, you know, allowed for that. I don’t think I was going to change the world particularly, although I remember thinking that I should get my PhD, because that shows that lesbians are educated, or something weird like that. I was very young. (laughter) I remember thinking well, I should do that, because that would be a good image for someone if I were representing, in some way, the gay community, and be like well see, we’re like, smart. (laughter) LC: Professional. D: Yeah, [00:36:00] I guess. But -- LJ: Was it a question of combating the image of the bar in the dyke -- I mean, the dyke in the bar? (laughter) Dyke in -D: Yeah, I never even -- I didn’t drink, and I still don’t, so I never was at a LJ: No, not, not your image, but -- bar. 30 �D: Yeah. LJ: -- sort of the general image of -- D: Oh well yeah, that’s true -- LJ: -- people looking down. D: -- the general image was stupid. LJ: At that time, you know. D: So I guess, yeah, I think that came into it, that one was just normal, in that sense. I mean, not ordinary, normal. But you know, there was nothing weird, much less sick, about it, that I was concerned with establishing. [00:37:00] Yeah. That’s... LJ: Did you have any (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SB: I was just thinking about how, with your parents at now, they sound very - - they sound supportive. D: Mm-hmm. SB: They were supportive. I -- that must have had an effect on you being able to be very positive about your experience. Would you say? D: I was raised with no respect for authority. (laughter) When I was in grade school, my father told me most of my teachers were stupid. So, and then he had to work with a lot of doctors, because he was an oral surgeon, so he had to work at the hospital, and he told me, as a rule, doctors were the stupidest people he’d ever met, as a group. There were individuals that were exceptions. But so, I grew up with no respect for titles and authority, didn’t matter to me if you were a teacher or not, you had to actually demonstrate that you weren’t an idiot. (laughter) So it didn’t matter what the culture 31 �[00:38:00] in general said about me, or us; I wasn’t taking anybody’s word for anything. But that’s how I was brought up to think. LC: Yeah. Culturally, what is your family? I mean, from what -- where’d your grandparents come from? D: Oh, Russia mainly. And yeah, we were -- there were very few Jews in the town that I grew up in, so I was always a minority. My parents weren’t observant, but they weren’t denying that they were Jewish, either. (laughter) I mean we always had a mezuzah on the house. And I always put up a mezuzah, no matter where I live, because I feel I’m entitled to it. (laughter) LJ: Yeah. D: I’m not religious in the least, and really my parents weren’t either, and even their parents weren’t that much. I mean they, their parents kept kosher, but at least my father’s were not that religious. They were the socialist intellectual school of Jews from Russia. My mother’s father was a rabbinical student, so he was more serious about it. But nobody ever tried to raise me in any -- well there [00:39:00] weren’t any shuls in Corning, anyway. (laughter) So, I mean, it’s not as if we could have gone to one. There was one in Elmira, but then to get to it, you would have had to drive. And of course, you aren’t supposed to drive on the Sabbath, so how are we supposed to get there? (laughter) So, you know, my parents didn’t have any desire to raise us in any religious tradition. So again, no respect for authority. So that helped. (laughter) LJ: It helped a lot. 32 �D: I mean, it was just open-mindedness that I was raised with. Except for stupidity, they didn’t have any patience for that. And ignorance, they weren’t really supportive of either. They did not like that. So. LJ: And of course, it was the era, too of -- socialist backgrounds or roots. D: Well they had been through the whole ’50s -- SB: All the communist stuff -- D: [00:40:00] Yeah, that. J: -- McCarthy. LJ: That awful (inaudible). D: Yeah. But their parents had been socialists, but they explained to me that the things that their parents had been agitating for were things that we now had. Social Security, Medicare, those were the things that the socialists had been pushing for in their day, back then. I mean they belonged to a socialist organization too, the Workman’s Circle. And I was thrilled recently at a rally that I went to, about immigration, to see a banner of Workman’s Circle. I’m like running up, “You people still exist? Oh my God!” So now I’m a third-generation member. (laughter) I didn’t know they were still around! So, but in my parents day, when they were adults, those things had been legislated. So they weren’t actively involved in socialism at that point, because they -- it had been accomplished. They were never communists. [00:41:00] So, but they told me, I mean all about the witch hunts in the ’50s. They belonged to an amateur dramatic association that called itself the Corning Workshop Players, and people had said to them, ‘do you think you should call yourself that, workshop? That sounds kind of, you know, communist.’ 33 �And they were like, “Please.” You know? (laughter) And they called themselves that anyway. But that’s the kind of, that was the atmosphere in those days. The ’50s sucked! (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LJ: -- very interesting. LC: I have another completely unrelated question to, you know, politics or socialism. And it has to do with you, Jeri. How did you two become friends, and what is in, you know, what is your relationship? J: It’s -- (laughter) D: It’s a Boston marriage. J: It’s a Boston marriage. D: Almost literally. J: Completely literally. D: Well we’re not technically [00:42:00] in Boston, but -- J: She was working at DOB as a librarian, and I was working as corresponding secretary, and so we met there. She was teaching at BU. I had quit. I worked for years in high technology. And like, I had quit the high technology company I was working at to found a business with my lover’s husband, which was a -D: (laughter) It was very complicated. J: We’ll get into that later. (laughter) At that point, he was my ex-lover’s husband. It wasn’t my present lover’s husband. And the business had gone belly up. And so I was out of work. She was out of work, because of BU had this D: BU had suddenly decided to just, they weren’t -- 34 �J: -- decided that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) graduate students to teach English. D: -- they weren’t going to use part-time people anymore. That lasted about a year before they realized they couldn’t manage without us, but -J: But anyway, she was out of work. D: -- I was out of work temporarily too. J: My brother Miles had just graduated from college in Florida, and he had come back, [00:43:00] so he didn’t have a job. And my other brother had just gotten laid off from his job. D: (laughter) Yeah. J: And so we went to Mary Chung’s and had the end of the world party, where we ate a lot of food, and we said you know, if we all moved in together, we could get really cheap rent; we’d all be paying like $50 a month in those days, you know? So we all moved in together, and eventually what happened is -D: Yeah, we moved into a house. J: -- one of -- we moved to a house, and so we moved to a house in Woburn, and eventually what happened is one of my brothers got a job at Mass General Hospital doing technology work, in IT. And eventually got married, and the one who had come back from Florida, at that point, he got a job working in the Lotus warehouse, loading boxes. And I got a job doing, being investment coordinator for a biotech company on a temporary basis, that was in Worcester. And she was -D: BU called us all back. [00:44:00] 35 �J: Yeah. So we were all living together, and we all had some money coming in. And we eventually started a copyediting business together. But, we moved in, and that was like, 30 years ago. And when the boys moved out -- my gay brother is married to another guy, so they have a house -- they have two of them, they have a condo in South Boston, and a house in Connecticut. And we just went on living together for years, and years, and years, and years, and… (laughter) D: We wrote books together -- J: And we are -- D: We bought a house together. (laughter) We go on vacations together. J: Yeah. D: The only thing we don’t do is sleep together. (laughter) J: Which is a very funny joke, because we had a friend, Fern, and at one -- When they passed the gay marriage is legal in Massachusetts, she said, “Well, you know, you guys are a couple, you should get married.” And we said… I said, “We can’t get married, [00:45:00] we don’t sleep together.” I have a serious back injury, and I’m not sleeping with anybody. And Fern says, “But lots of married couples don’t sleep together.” (laughter) (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SB: How true! D: Fern had a point. (laughter) J: So we’ve been together for 30 years. 36 �D: Yeah, at least. J: Yeah, since I was like 30 -- right, I’m going to be 65 this year. D: But I’m pretty sure I couldn’t live with anyone that I really was in a romantic relationship with. I don’t think I can do it. (laughter) SB: Do you want to talk about that a little? D: Not especially. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) (laughter) D: I think a lot of people can’t do relationships, they just try anyway. I’ve had a few. I had a long relationship with a guy, and a long relationship with a woman, and the conclusion I came with was I don’t like relationships! (laughter) I’m not good at them, and they make me nervous. LJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SB: Yeah. Well I don’t think I can live with anyone. But I think -- DK: Exactly. SB: -- I can still have a relationship. [00:46:00] (laughter) D: Oh yeah, I had a perfectly fine relationship with Gail when she was in Philadelphia, and I was in Boston, no problem! (laughter) Yeah. LJ: You specialize in long-distance relationships. D: Yeah, relationships with people who aren’t there are great. (laughter) It’s when they’re there that, you know, you have these issues. LC: But you have a certain type of, you have the Boston marriage type of -- D: We do! 37 �J: Yeah, we do. LC: -- companionship. D: Yeah! J: Yeah. LC: So, there’s a lot to be said, no small thing. J: No, and Agatha Christie writes those stories, and they say, “That’s Miss Murgatroyd and Miss Johnson.” D: Yeah. J: “And they raise dogs!” You know? And they’ve been living together since they were 20? Yeah, that’s it. D: Yeah. J: Yeah. Because I’m polymorphously perverse. I mean I’ve, I could sleep with -- I’ve slept with men, I’ve slept with women, men are impossible to live with, women are not impossible to live with. (laughter) Women are just fine to live with! So that was a decision there. LJ: Oh my. Well -- SB: Can we [00:47:00] kind of get the focus a little bit more on you now, Jeri? Would you like to talk a little bit about -J: My background? SB: Yes. LJ: Yes. J: Okay. I was born in downtown Chicago, right on the lake. I mean not on the lake, in a hospital on the lake, but (laughter) really, right in downtown Chicago. And 38 �my parents were not very well off. And they were working in the retail industry. My mother worked at Montgomery Ward, and my father at Lane Bryant. They were basically sales clerks; I think in those days, they probably called them floor walkers. And my mother had an accident in an office building, in which she destroyed her knee tripping on a step that was loose. And so, she sued the company for $1,500, and they were able to put a down payment on a house in suburbia. (laughter) Fifteen hundred bucks! (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SB: Whoa! How long ago was that? [00:48:00] J: Nineteen fifty-five. D: That was a lot of money in those days! J: I was born in ’54. And so they moved out to suburbia. This was, it must have been later than ’54, because I was old enough to remember it, [and] my brother had been born, I think. So it was probably more like around 1960. And yeah, because Randhurst, the first enclosed mall, opened around the early ’60s. So they moved out to suburbia, and I had culture shock, because I was an inner city kid! (laughter) LJ: Bet you did! D: Tell them about your gang. J: Oh yeah. I always was a rabble rouser. And I had a gang, and my gang was all the outcasts. I had a Robin Hood complex, and I was a rabble rouser. So, like I was in school in suburbia. And there was like this pair of black twins. Well there were no blacks in suburbia in 1960. (laughter) Let me tell you. LJ: (inaudible). 39 �J: So they were ostracized, and there was this kid who was really fat, and she was ostracized. And so all these kids [00:49:00] who didn’t fit in, I organized them into a gang, and whenever the bullies would pick on the other kids who were like smaller than them – (they were always smaller than the bullies) we would knock them down and beat the crap out of them. (laughter) And that’s what we did! And then the little kids would be abjectly grateful, and you know, this worked really, really well. So that was my, that pretty much defined my entire life. (laughter) As far as the women’s movement and everything else. SB: Right. J: So, I decided very early on that the female role model of 1960 was not going to work for me. (laughter) LC: Yeah. J: And my parents -- my mother was brilliant. Okay? She was the brains of the family. She had all the brains and the drive. My father was really, really attractive, but really completely uninterested in anybody but himself. (laughter) [00:50:00] So she had this scheme whereby she was going to get them jobs in management instead of being grunts. And the way she was going to do this was, she was going to throw this enormous party, and I was all of about six or eight years old, but I still remember this, to this day. She threw this lavish party, and in those days, women wore gowns to parties, things like that. LJ: Oh yeah. J: So we were living in this suburban house, which was rather sparsely furnished, because they only had money for the house, but nobody knew that, because 40 �they were having a lavish party, and you would have moved everything out of the way anyway. It had a gallery that ran around the edge of the second story that you could look down over the living room. So here’s little me, and I’m standing at the gallery, and I’m looking through the bars of the railing. And here’s all these women in stunning gowns, and the guys are all talking [about] important things, like business, you know? “Who can we screw?” And the -- I mean financially. The women were all hanging on their arms, going, “Oh you’re so wonderful, Harry.” And I said, [00:51:00] and I was this high, “Forget it. I am never going to be the one hanging on some guy’s arm. I’m going to be the one making” -D: Screwing people over. J: Screwing people over! Let’s get that straight right now! So. (laughter) And that pretty much defined my life. I went all the way through middle school, and high school, and everything, and all the girls wanted to talk about was boys, and makeup, and clothes. And what I wanted to do was hang out with the boys, and do science in the back of the chemistry classroom, you know? And see if we could distill the molasses we were using in class into rum, you know? (laughter) Things of this nature. D: Oh my God. So, I was a tomboy too, it’s true. J: I was really, really irritated when I got to be somewhere around 45, and my grandfather told me that he was -- he went insane with my mother. My mother was a complete tomboy. They put her in cute [00:52:00] little dresses in 1930, you know, and she would immediately climb trees and get completely covered with mud, that she was the least feminine little girl on the planet. My mother, who was in the fashion industry by then, she was the first woman to run an entire floor of Montgomery Wards in downtown 41 �Chicago, with all the different departments that were [in] it, and things like that. Because the scheme worked. (laughter) And you know, she was always like, ‘Why can’t you be more like, more of a lady? You know, why do you walk like a truck driver,’ you know? (laughter) And I found out way too late that she had been this incredible tomboy. D: No kidding. SB: How did they do the scheme? How did they, they make contacts with all these guys? J: It’s what we would call networking today. SB: Okay. All right. J: What happened is they invited all these important people from the fashion industry in Chicago to this party. [00:53:00] And all of them saw the other people there, and they thought, ‘Oh, she’s friends with Emilio Pucci; she can’t be a floor walker, he can’t be a floor walker. These designers -- because in those days, you had designers in your department store. You didn’t sell this crap made in China; you actually hired Emilio Pucci to put his line in your store. Sort of like the Vera Wang thing. And so they were thinking, ‘Well, we don’t want to tick off the other guy who we have to go to these charity events and stuff with, so we’d better push them up the food chain a little bit, and it worked. It was, you know, it’s the, “Well if you know him, then you must be more important than we think,” you know? (laughter) And of course my mother was actually very classy. She looked like Olivia de Havilland, literally. I mean I -- she saw the pictures of her in -D: Oh yeah. 42 �J: -- when she was in her twenties, she looked [like] Olivia de Havilland, and my father was a very handsome, dark-haired young man. And so they looked very elegant, you know, so they fit right in. [00:54:00] So the scheme worked beautifully, as far as that went. And they both did get entry-level management jobs out of it. And I used to follow my mother around Montgomery Ward when I was off school, like in the summer, and she would tell me things. And it’s advice that I used on my own career that was amazing, because when I was in business, she’d say things like, “If your boss asks you to do something, and you don’t know how to do it, just say ‘yes, I can do that,’ and then go find somebody who knows how to do it, and have them (laughter) teach you how to do it,” you know? SB: So there’s your mother as like, a role model, in a way, in certain respects. J: Yes. D: But she was this elegant woman, and you are this rabble rouser, and you know, what happened in high school? Because I just remember for myself, the pressure that I was under to be, you know, a real girl. LJ: And date. D: And date. J: Well I was never going to be a real girl, because from the time that I was [00:55:00] born, practically -- that I could toddle around and think, I was certain that I was born to be a soldier. I mean, if I had been something in my last life, you know, that’s what I would have been reincarnated from. When I got out of high school, I’ll talk about high school in a second, but when I got out of high school, I actually checked with the Navy, and unfortunately, in 1972, the only positions for women in the Navy were as 43 �secretaries. And I said, ‘Screw that. If I’m going to be a secretary, I can get twice as much money in the private sector.’ I want be a commander on a damn ship, you know? (laughter) So you couldn’t do that in those days, which is probably my greatest disappointment in life. But in high school was actually a fairly miserable time for me on all fronts. I was very, very good academically, and teachers liked me. But I spent all my time hanging around with the boys. I mean first of all -- my parents were completely unreligious. They didn’t believe there was God, they nominally supported, especially when my grandparents, my great-grandparents -- the last of them didn’t die until I was 13 years old. They lived a very long time. So we had this family with grandparents and great-grandparents. So like we would celebrate things like Passover, because we were nominally Jewish. But I never set foot inside a temple, except I think at my brother’s wedding. And they didn’t believe in God. And so I didn’t have any ethical hang-ups about like, you shouldn’t be gay. This all stems, I think a lot, from religion in this country. “Oh, God says you shouldn’t do [00:57:00] that.” You know? It’s like -D: Immoral. J: Yeah, it’s immoral. Yeah, I never had that kind of a sense. I had a sense of ethics in that if you picked on somebody else, I would clobber you. You know? So I was always a rabble rouser. And so the women’s movement was perfect for me. (laughter) But in high school, I didn’t fit in. I had a big chip on my shoulder because [00:58:00] I felt that I sounded like an inner city kid. And when I was in tenth grade, which I guess is not quite high school, which I think is eleventh -SB: Yeah, it is. J: Is it? 44 �LJ: Yes it is. LC: Yeah, it’s high school. J: Yeah, that’s high school? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) J: Yeah, I had an English teacher who actually changed my life, because I would talk slang, and you know, jargon, and things like this. I sounded like an inner city kid, and teachers hated this. Because they were nice suburban teachers, you know? I mean these girls who now, I think, they were 24, they were living at home, spending all their money to buy like a little red sports car, and they were barely children themselves. But in those days, you know, I was a young teenager, and they looked like adults to me. (laughter) I would become furious. They’d make statements like -- one of them said once -- my math teacher said, “I don’t understand why anybody would take drugs.” And I was thinking, you know, back in my background in the city, there’s people out there [00:59:00] who are completely frigging miserable! What’s wrong with you? You know, not everybody just lives in their parents’ house and spends all their money they make teaching on little red sports cars. So, I was always furious. (laughter) But I had a biology teacher, and she was determined. She was an older woman, and so even by those standards, she was a different generation. And I would -- she would say, “Do you understand this?’ And I would say, “Yes, swell.” -- And she would say, “Don’t talk slang.” And I would keep doing it, because my feeling is, as an inner city kid was, ‘Hey, you’re not going to change me; this is who I am.’ Like the Bronx (laughter) ‘This is me, I’m not going to change for you. You can teach me anything you want, but you’re not going to change who I am.’ And so she would get upset, and she would give me extra 45 �work. And I would go home and do it. I loved biology. I couldn’t learn enough about it. I’d come back and say, “Here it is.” And then [01:00:00] the same thing would happen the next day, and finally, not being a complete idiot, she said, “You really like this stuff, don’t you?” And (laughter) I said, “Yes, I’m fascinated by what makes living things tick.” “There’s got to be an easier way to do this, (laughter) than we go through this every single day, and I give you more stuff.” But basically, I didn’t talk to anybody in high school. I basically just read books. SB: Did you start to have any feelings about girls at that point, or…? J: I had feelings about girls. Well, I had a big crush on my English teacher, and I also had a boyfriend, which is kind of the story of my life. And of course, she was my English teacher; if I had been a boy, she wasn’t going to do anything with me. But yeah, I decided I had [01:01:00] a distinct type. I liked cute, little, blond boys like Illya Kuryakin on The Man from U.N.C.L.E. I mean that was my type. D: Oh, be still my heart! J: And cute girls that had short hair and… (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). The gamine types, you know? D: Me too. J: I knew that exactly. And so I had feelings, but I didn’t really do anything on it until I came back from my first year and a half of college. I went to college originally down in Florida -- Jacksonville University. Even when I was 16 years old, I always wanted to write. And I wrote plays, and my brother Jack and I would act them and things like this, even when I was a kid. When I was 16 years old, I wrote a play called something like, ‘The Promise of Roses’. And it was about contemporary activists. 46 �They were [01:02:00] trying to blow up a factory in order to make a statement, and accidentally, somebody gets killed in the process. So I wrote this story, and I sent it to Playhouse 90, because what did I know? And they sent back an option contract! (laughter) SB: You’re kidding! J: No. Now Playhouse 90 was canceled before they actually put this on, but they sent back an option contract. Everybody on the planet had to sign this contract, except me, because I was underage. My mother had to sign it; (laughter) (inaudible) I couldn’t sign the damn contract! SB: Incredible! J: So, I wanted to write plays. I went to Jacksonville University because they had a very good drama department. And that was part of my first experience of the big problem with men and their frigging egos. I was the darling of the drama department. I would write a play, and the school wanted to put it on. I was sleeping with a guy named Bob, who was a nice guy, but he didn’t say, “That’s fabulous, [01:03:00] gee I wish they’d do it for me.” He said, “Dammit, why don’t they put one of my plays on.” Just cut to the chase. And that’s kind of happened to me throughout my relationship with guys. My taste didn’t change any as I got older. I had this guy who I was sleeping with, who was the same way. The kid was really, really cute; he was 10 years younger than me. I was making $60,000 a year, which is probably the equivalent of over $100,000 in today’s dollars. He was making half of that, and all he did was complain that I was making more money than him. I was like, “I’m 10 years older than you. When you’re 10 years older than you, you will make more money than you’re making, too!” (laughter) I actually said 47 �this to her (Devra), “If they would just stay in bed and shut up, it would be fine. (laughter) D: He was cute though! [01:04:00] That’s what they say -- J: And to be honest, my mother had the same problem with my father all along. She was smarter than he was, she had more drive than he did, and he moved us 12 times in 18 years across the country from Chicago through Buffalo, to Boston, because every time she got a job, she’d make more than he did, and then he’d try to get a better job somewhere else. And in those days, they kept transferring you somewhere else. But when I came back from college is when I joined DOB. And I was very active, which is not a big surprise, in the women’s movement. It’s not hard to find women, or movement, because you know, there were things like NOW. So I did marches and things like that. I think I heard about DOB in the women’s bookstore, [01:05:00] on a flyer or something like that. LJ: New Words? D: Yeah, New Words, yeah. J: They were having some event. LC: Or one of the newspapers, Sojourner -- J: Yeah, yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) J: Or the Gay Advocate, or something like that. Anyway, I saw something about it, and at that point, I had my first relationship with a woman named Susan, with somebody I met in a bar. I know I stayed away from jocks. I’m four years younger than she is, and that means that by the time I got involved with the gay movement, women 48 �who were butch and femme were really considered the older generation. And so, Susan was very butch, but I wasn’t interested in that kind of -- that circle -- you know? I was more interested in let’s just be ourselves, and that. So we kind of had a one-night -- well, it wasn’t a one-night stand, we slept together a few times. But -D: That’s a fling. GF: A fling! We had a fling. D: Yes, technically that would be a fling, yes. J: And I decided that [01:06:00] I liked sex with women and sex with men, but men were impossible, based on my past history. Whereas women, if you had a woman, and you -- I had roommates, you know, if you were in a room with a man, and you were reading a book or writing a book, and you didn’t talk to them for half an hour, they say this about women, but it’s not true, it’s men, they would say, “You’re not mad at me, are you honey?” I’m going like, ‘No I’m trying to read a book.’ If I was in a room with a woman, you know, who was one of my roommates or something, and I was reading a book, they’d read a book, or they’d write poetry, or they’d do something else. You wouldn’t hear a peep out of them. You know, they weren’t worried about their egos or what was going on… (laughter) So I decided men are impossible to live with; women are not. I want to meet a woman, and really have a relationship because I want to have a relationship with somebody, okay? The thing is not working out, having a relationship with men. And this works just as well for me with women, so let’s have a relationship with a woman. And the place to meet women is at gay organizations. [01:07:00] So half of me -- I had two sides of things like DOB, which was on one hand, I’m a rabble rouser, and I wanted to do things like Gay Pride, and Stonewall -- let’s stand up for our rights, 49 �and let’s force them to accept us. And on the other hand, I wanted to meet a woman and have a relationship. In those days, I was in my twenties; my hormones were going ‘why don’t you have a relationship with somebody and get an apartment or something real.’, (laughter) which worked, actually. And so I met my first long-term relation there, [DOB] Kristine, who I think was recording secretary at the time. D: I think so. LJ: Yeah. J: Yeah. And she and I had a relationship that I think went on for six or seven years. D: Oh, I think it was at least 10. LJ: And you lived on Beacon Hill, right? J: Ten years? Yeah. Well anyway -- D: Yeah. J: -- then she was getting to be like, 33. At 33, she decided she wanted to have a child. Nowadays, normal people just [01:08:00] go to a place that inseminates you. But her ex-boyfriend from way back, when she was like in college, came back into town, and so she started seeing him on the sly. (laughter) This took me five minutes to find out about, and so at some point, I issued them an ultimatum, because they were both carrying on. I don’t do carrying on. So they came back, and they were like, ‘Oh, I’m really sorry about this…’ They were making this whole drama out of this thing. So at one point, I sat her down and I said, “Okay, you have one week to decide. You’re going to stay with me, or you’re going to go with him. If you don’t decide in one week, I’m 50 �going to make a decision for you -- you’re going to get each other.” Which is ultimately what happened. So, she ultimately married him. LC: She had a kid? J: Well she, as it turned out, she couldn’t have a kid -- D: Yeah, it was too bad. J: -- Because she had ovarian -- she had an ovarian tumor at some point, so she -- they adopted two kids. So she had the experience of motherhood anyway. [01:09:00] LJ: Yeah. J: And we remained friends. We still email. She’s in Florida now, but we still email each other like at birthdays and things like that. Because it was a friendly breakup. She got her two kids. D: Yes. J: (laughter) I think what she really wanted was children. LC: But for you, was there ever a thing about ‘I would like to have a relationship with a woman also because maybe my mother didn’t have enough time for me as I was growing up.’ Was there some kind of, ‘I want to be with a woman to get the love that I didn’t get quite enough of, because my mother was so high-powered?’ Or for whatever other reason? Was that a reality?, J: I think it was more the crush on my English teacher period of my life, because she kind of took me in hand, and said, “Look, you’ve got to stop acting like a juvenile delinquent, because I looked at your [01:10:00] intelligence scores, and they’re like 150.” She said, “You’re actually quite brilliant, and you’re just going to end up 51 �getting yourself killed.” So she was the one who got me into writing plays, and really, I kind of got my mothering from her. My parents never got along with each other. I mean this [was] a problem. My parents never got along with each other, so I left home at 18, not because I was gay, [but]because my father couldn’t even spell my name right. I mean, I could have been ax murdering people, (laughter) and he wouldn’t have actually had an opinion on this subject. My mother’s opinion was always that you should love your children no matter what they do. And as it turned out, she kind of had two families, me and Jack, and then two -- ones that were 12 and 15 years younger than me. And the youngest one was also gay, but by the time he came out, she [said], “Oh yeah well, that wouldn’t be my preference, but the worst thing on Earth is parents who throw their children out and don’t take care of them. [01:11:00] That’s really what I can’t stand.” That was always her attitude. So I never had a problem with her from the, being gay part. And my father’s response to everything was ‘Don’t upset your mother.’(laughter) LC: And they were fairly liberal, politically? J: Yeah, they were very liberal. They never voted anything but Democrat in their life. They were liberal, educated Jews. My father came from a very wealthy family actually, but his mother hated my mother, because she was working class, and therefore would never help out. And my mother came from tradespeople. Her grandparents had been bakers, and her father was a restauranteur -- what we would now call a restauranteur. He actually owned various restaurants at various times in Hartford before he retired. And they were too lower class for my grandmother, my father’s mother. So they had to make [01:12:00] it on their own. Unfortunately, his father, who was also in the retail trade -- that’s why they were in the retail trade -- he had set them up in a little 52 �shop that went belly up when he died. He was killed in a car accident not long after I was born, or everybody’s life would have been different. But they didn’t get along really well. I had three younger brothers so I was out of there. At 18, I went to school in Florida, because I wanted to be somewhere far away, where I could make my own decisions without a lot of brouhaha constantly going on around me. (laughter) And I studied drama for two years. After two years, I was not only academically bored, but it was the 1972-73 recession. I said, ‘I’m going to starve to death.’ So I decided to come back to Boston, and when I came, I applied to Harvard. Everybody said, [01:13:00] ‘You can’t go parttime -- I was supporting myself; I had to work. I said, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘It’s 28 cents for stamps.’ I’m going to put a 28- cent stamp on this envelope and send it to the admissions office, and see what they say. And what they said was ‘Yes, there is a part-time program at Harvard, and it was funded by James Lowell in 1647 or something. (laughter) And if you’re low income, you can actually get some of your courses paid for. So I went parttime to school and worked at a company called Clinical Assays, which is now part of Baxter Travenol. I was in liberal arts initially, [but]I finished my undergraduate degree in literature, and I went on to study my master’s in biology and worked for a lot of biotech companies. And before I joined the copyediting thing -- she [Devra] was doing copyediting -- I went into business. Kristine’s now husband [01:14:00] (laughter) started a company that modified accounting software and sold these services. So I went into that with him to do the marketing side, because I’m a great marketeer. That promptly went belly up. That was the year the world ended. And I said to Devra, ‘Let’s make the copyediting bit…’ D: Well you destroyed your back. 53 �J: Yeah. D: Well you didn’t destroy your back, a tractor trailer truck rear ended her LJ: Oh my God. SB: Oh my God! D: -- destroyed her back. J: Yeah. D: And she had been doing a lot of traveling for the business, and you and -- couldn’t do that anymore. And you needed a job you could do reclining that wasn’t prostitution. J: Yeah, right! (laughter) D: So I got her into the copyediting business because she could do that with the computer table over the bed. And because you were really in terrible shape in those days. J: Yeah. And so I made us this marketing brochure, which said the principles of the company, and how we’d all gone to Harvard, and [01:15:00] how I was an expert in science, and she [Devra] had taught for 10 years -- English composition at BU… So between us, we could do everybody’s copyediting. And we got all these customers, like [John Wiley] and Beacon Press, and -D: Oh my God, CTI, Course Technology. Oh my God, it was so -- J: Yeah, so we had a booming -- D: -- busy. 54 �J: It turned out to be a booming business, so we were running our own business. LJ: And where did you do that, in Cambridge? J: Originally, we lived in Woburn with Mark and Miles. Then Mark left to get married, and Miles bought a house in Wakefield, and we moved with him. And we were running the business out of this little alcove in the house. (laughter) And then eventually, we managed to find enough money to put a down payment on the house that we’re living in now. D: Well my mother died that -- That had a lot to do with our having money. J: I got a settlement from the car accident, for one thing, which helped. (laughter) D: Oh yeah! J: Because, you know, it’s a family tradition. (laughter) D: The truck accident. That’s true! J: This is how you make it in America today. (laughter) D: Yeah, my mother left me some money, so -- J: It cost a lot more than $1,500, but we -- D: So I had half of a down payment, and you had half of a down payment, so we actually bought a house. J: So then we bought the house in Malden. [01:17:00] And we’ve been living there ever since. We’ve been there since 2000. D: Yeah, almost 20 years. LC: And two works better than one, in some cases. 55 �D: It does. LC: Like when you have to put down a down payment. And then pay a mortgage. D: I wouldn’t have bought a house on my own. There’s no way. J: And we had written two books, Season of Storms and Season of Shadows for fantasy books together, and so we figured we’d be writing more books together. And we’re very much like a couple, aside from the not sleeping together part. You know, we’ve just been doddering around for the last 30 years. J: I think fantasy’s a common thread in our writing. (laughter) We do complement each other. SB: Can you just talk, this is totally off of what you’ve been talking about, but how did you -- what did you do in DOB? J: I was the corresponding secretary. LJ: Okay. J: Which meant I mailed out [01:21:00] the newsletter, and I answered the correspondence. I never shut my mouth, so I liked things like going to raps and helping people -- I mean, this is the ‘kill the bullies on the playground.’ You begin as you intend to continue, like if girls would show up and they would be upset -- especially teenagers – (we did get some who were young)and they were getting hassled because they were gay, I liked supporting[and] giving them advice. I was born to be a protector, okay? In whatever fashion. LJ: And you did raps. J: Yeah. 56 �SB: Did you yourself lead raps? LJ: Yes, you did. J: Yes. Yes. D: Oh did you? SB: Yeah. Which ones did you, do you remember? GF: I don’t remember. I just remember having everybody in a circle, and I remember some teenage girl saying her parents were throwing her out because… And I liked giving people assistance. It goes back to the places you can go for assistance, and [01:22:00] things like that. Because that’s what I do. Those of us who are strong, we have to protect the weak. SB: Can you think of an example of someone who really needed your help? Do you remember? J: I don’t remember well enough. I mean, I do remember this rap, and I do remember the girl, like an older teenager, saying that her parents had thrown her out because she was gay. I do not remember what I said. I do remember that I was always trying -- I’m still trying to facilitate people -- tell them where they can go for assistance. I know [there were] shelters and things like that. D: Yes. We had a list of shelters. J: A list of shelters, and organizations that would provide for you, and give you shelter and things like that. So I was doing that sort of thing. For me, DOB was A: political, B: a chance [01:23:00] to meet people, and C: I’m on the other side. It’s not so much that I need help, I’m not going to be pushed around; but I want to provide help to other people. Somebody once said that the reason I liked cute boys and cute girls is 57 �because I was always taking in strays. Somebody’s got to protect the baby birds. So I was the one who wanted to be there to take care of the other people who were there. Which is fulfilling, [if] nothing else, you feel like you’re doing something. D: Right. J: You know, when you’re not rabble rousing. (laughter) D: Yeah. LJ: Now, the Kris we’re talking about is Kris Thurston, isn’t it? J: Yeah. D: Yes. LJ: And you lived on Anderson Street? D: Oh, on the hill? J: Yeah, we did, yeah. We lived on the wrong side of Beacon Hill, (laughter) the lower class [01:24:00] side. LJ: You lived on the fairly right side. But not quite, you weren’t up on the middle of Mount Vernon Street. (laughter) But you were in a very good area, right across the street. D: Oh yeah, I had this one room studio (laughter) that was tiny! But it was very convenient to Harvard. I could just cross the street, and I was at Harvard, or I could cross the street that way, and I was at the church, so DOB was a great location. SB: I just have to ask, if some of the correspondence you got -- can you remember any of it now? Like what was the general thing like? 58 �J: I don’t really remember any of the correspondence, and I went through my file cabinet to see if I had copies of any, but I really don’t. Some of it was probably people who were feeling lost, and [01:25:00] I was suggesting that they actually come to a meeting. I did a lot of suggesting that people come to a meeting. Some of it was just people who wanted information, who heard about the organization and wanted to know what it did, where it was, that sort of thing. I had correspondence from people who said [they were] coming out, and uncertain about what to do, and I would say ‘Why don’t you come to a meeting? We have these raps and you can meet other women, and we can discuss what you need to do. That’s mostly the way it went. I’m not a doctor, so I can’t solve people’s – well, of course that never stopped Ann Landers. (laughter) In writing, I was usually suggesting they actually come to the meeting, talk in person, and see what was going in the community. D: I think we probably spent a lot of time reassuring people [01:26:00] that DOB was unthreatening. Remember that? Yeah. LJ: Yes. J: This was -- D: They didn’t know what to expect. LJ: We were not raided by the police, ever. J: And this -- D: Well that too, yes. We wouldn’t -- J: It was the ‘Susan Saxe* is hiding out’ era. [*Susan Saxe, a member of the radical group, the Weather Underground of the 1970s, was convicted of robbery and manslaughter in the 1970 bank robbery in 59 �which a Boston policeman was killed. She was on the FBI’s Most Wanted List from 1970-1975. She received a sentence of 10-12 years in prison.] LJ: Oh right. J: And so a lot of people wanted to know that we were not radical, in the sense of blowing up things, and things like that. D: Oh right! J: They said, ‘DOB isn’t one of these organizations where they throw Molotov cocktails and things like that?’ (laughter) We’re like, ‘No, no, no… D: Goodness no, we give potluck suppers. LJ: Yeah, that’s right. We did Thanksgiving dinners. GF: We’re a social organization for gay women who want to have a chance to be part of a community, and we’re really not threatening.(laughter) SB: And did you use those words, gay women? Because I remember myself, it was easier for myself at the beginning to say I was a gay woman, rather than say lesbian. Do you remember that? LJ: Everybody hated that word. J: Probably yeah, at that time. [01:27:00] D: Yeah! J: Yeah, lesbian sounds awfully clinical. LJ: It sounds like an insect. (laughs) SB: Well it was so stigmatized. J: Yeah. D: Yeah. 60 �LJ: Yeah. Yeah. SB: Gay woman was a little more acceptable. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) J: Yeah. I probably said gay woman, I would suspect. Yeah. LJ: It was easy. D: Yeah. J: Especially if you’re talking to people who are hesitant, because you don’t want to label them. You want them to just feel comfortable, like they can come in [and] meet other women like[themselves], and just socialize. D: Yeah. And it’s very, it’s just low-key, it’s just chatting, like nobody’s there wearing chains or anything. (laughter) It’s just very normal. LJ: Well you know, we had -- D: Leather. LJ: -- You remember that, don’t you? Where the organization of, it was not masochistic, but it was sadistic -D: S&M? LJ: S&M wanted to use our office and pay us a lovely rent, and we had a long meeting on it. And everyone said, “Good God, no.” [01:28:00] (laughter) D: Oh no, Sheri said, “Good God, no.” (laughter) I thought we should let J: Well you would, because you’re always a troublemaker, but yeah, image- them. wise, I could see where that could be a problem. D: Yeah no, I would reassure people that no, no, no, it’s -- 61 �J: It’s all very low-key, and nobody’s going to pressure you, and nobody’s going to suggest that we tear down the state house. D: No, we’re not having orgies in the office. J: (laughter) So a lot of what one did -- D: ‘You’ll feel perfectly comfortable, trust me.’ J: A lot of what one did was reassure people. D: Yeah. SB: Well it’s the only game in town. LJ: That’s right. D: Well it was. LJ: And we were a 501(c)3. (laughter) D: Oh wow! LJ: So people could contribute their money and know that we were going to be able to take it. But this has been wonderful. This is wonderful. SB: It really has been. J: It’s like reminiscing about old times. SB: Yeah. Okay. Yes, we’d just been talking mainly right now in the last half hour or so with Jeri. And is there anything else you’d like to talk about, Jeri? J: I don’t think so. LC: I, of course, have another -- J: Okay, what’s your question? 62 �LC: Both of you. And both of you put a lot of heart, soul, effort, time, and energy into DOB. LJ: That is true. LC: [What]made you want to do that? Did it have anything to do with the wonderful Lois and Sheri? What other -- what made you tick, in terms of DOB? Why were you willing to give as much as you did? J: I thought it was a very worthy organization. I liked Lois and Sheri, and I liked the community. I thought it was doing [01:30:00] something important for women. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) D: Something meaningful. J: Something meaningful. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) J: As I say, I like to help people when I can, and this was doing something meaningful. You could really see that it was helping young women. And Lois and Sheri were a little bit older than the rest of us, but a lot of the women who came were young. And it was in Cambridge, which is a college area. And they’re [the young women are [in]a very difficult time. They’re in the time when they’re trying to figure out who they are and everything. I thought it was doing something that was really good to be doing. It was a good organization to spend your time working on. D: Yeah, one felt one was having an effect. One was making a connection, and it felt meaningful. SB: And you know what? I think it really must have helped those young women to have you two, [01:31:00] because of your personalities and your strength. No, 63 �no, seriously. I mean your strengths, and the fact that you both were, sounds like, from a fairly early age, you knew who you were. LJ: Independent. SB: -- And you were independent, and you were confident of yourselves. So you were like role models. J: Yeah, well -- SB: Wouldn’t you say that that -- D: I was confident in that context. SB: In that context, okay. D: In my personal life, I often just felt that I was at loose ends. But, you know, when I had a context -SB: Okay. DK: -- like when I was teaching, or when I was going to DOB, I knew what I was doing, and that felt meaningful, that I could -SB: Yeah. I think you must have really helped a lot of young women. J: I hope so! LJ: Oh I think you did. SB: Yeah. LJ: Because you were a constant presence, and that was helpful, to hold the organization together. [01:32:00] We needed somebody who was nearby -- physically, mentally, and emotionally. (laughter) SB: Yeah. LJ: And just for the record, your ages? 64 �D: Oh! I’m 67. J: And I’m 64. And we’re theoretically retired, but we’re really working on various projects part-time. LJ: Wonderful. SB: That’s great. END OF Devra/Jeri Interview, Part 2 of 2 65 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Devra; Jeri Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Devra and Jeri, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-18 Description An account of the resource Interview with Devra and Jeri for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro. The interviewees chose not to use their full names in the interview. Subject The topic of the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/352fbcfca4944ec760f68e95f356c035.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=jMkUHrbSubGU6f94cAQqBoOVa5VlZErvOzZnGzDBFH8OpdlYM0lt6ru81KL6hH1sFaJDH%7EVBOKeCxGp-URsgiNzeUHM2eAolcSIkF0krfYR0K4urpo-IJ%7E6CdcxhxBsFmW0IRAbdVBf15WI%7Ehw2uNfajMpcVXAGB8K7URDd2Mutmake-TrYTrZypfu2p3GEXZiHs2TrtezvYVRUaNggsZOj22LZ46MAwQVZtj71%7E133Bh9bRs-I3aMibmvXCCWowBVUyawouyHbHLkcn8hE01DTc4oM5RfZtcze40DN3HpBs1hLjCHPXoF1an6MalWQmFw%7EFLhrTk8lY-WdmxEXMnQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a2114a2d4cdbbb6405e51fd5f8a35514 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/291bcdcd9d7d4a80a270b1506ca9264a.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=gmOB1FKg4S9fCe6eP%7E5GHSEeQg2N7CxTWq0M%7Ey94G6KatGNkuv9NL6eA3B09YKsiM72pb%7E8l2N4TTHFgsYRLCbBPvXypKGO0TZk4SWvUgrbTeQaf0LWaBNV1RH-FJPSAL%7ETs1J5ANcHU8BXum-twL%7ENxky-DCsVeVIXHXoKS0HD02OA0DOVGZyCbG11LKtbbN3jkSBBuLQqAGlamzdMCiuIO6kwgcktyGRANntAZaRrOZTsNGn7TFB%7EREd4wBbAnvkkZonzFZrHK6yoWLL4XDmq29ksGVK4S2gsnGX2rrNk78bkSOabQGh7FlMNbpphothyVis%7E3Z8SrfA8fsiDUTw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9abc2fc46af0fe0b878dd7471a90bb08 PDF Text Text Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Laura Catanzaro Interviewer: Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer August 2, 2019 Laura’s artwork for the Great American Lesbian Art Show of 1980, on the cover of GCN. “Amazon Moon”. Alkyd, polyurethane and glass on routered plywood, 4’ x 6’ x 1/4”. (Original image appeared in black and white in Gay Community News, 08/02/1980). �LOIS JOHNSON: This is Lois Johnson. The date is August 2, 2019. We are at Spring House, 44 Allendale Street in Jamaica Plains, and we are about to have an interview with Laura Catanzaro. Laura, would you introduce yourself? LAURA CATANZARO: I am Laura Catanzaro. I am so pleased to be here and to be interviewed today. It’s really something. I was a little nervous. And I surprised myself because, you know, I’ve assisted in giving interviews, at least technically, for a while now. But having your own interview, [00:01:00] or being interviewed, it’s -- you know, it’s an intimate experience. And a little bit scary. But I’m not scared now. I’m happy, and hopefully my brain will remember everything that it needs to for this interview. (laughter) LJ: But your brain is relaxed at the moment. LC: Yeah. LJ: Which is good. LC: Yeah, yeah. LJ: You can just let your stream of consciousness take you. LC: Okay. LJ: So could you tell us -- of course we have your name, could you tell us your age, and where you’re currently living? LC: I am, of all ages, 64 years old. And I’m living in Roslindale, Massachusetts. Very proudly living in Massachusetts. I’m glad I’m in the state, and I’m glad to be at that age that the Beatles wrote songs about. (laughter) [00:02:00] LJ: Also present with us… Sarah, would you introduce yourself? 1 �SARAH BOYER: Yes, I’m Sarah Boyer. I’m with our group, Lois, and Laura. We’re all doing the DOB project together. It’s been wonderful. LJ: And Judith Sullivan. SB: Judith Sullivan, okay. LJ: (inaudible) a good time. SB: Mm-hmm. LJ: Okay, let’s begin here. And would you give us some commentary on your early beginnings? Where you were born, your family, what your young life was like? LC: Indeed. I was born in Italy. I was born in the south of Italy. When I was a year and a half, my mother and I came to America. [00:03:00] My mother’s father was already in America and established. And my own father was kind of having a hard time in Italy. So, we came -- we were to come on the boat, the ship called The Andrea Doria, which sank July 26, 1956. Fortunately, my mother was very impatient. She didn’t want to wait for this luxury liner. So, we took a much less luxurious ship called The Giulio Cesare, and it brought us to New York. And that is where I grew up. I lived initially in Washington Heights, the place where “West Side Story” was set in the early ’60s. [00:04:00] Then we moved “downtown” to the Upper East Side. I attended private girls’ schools in Manhattan. And never really came out, so to speak. I was always interested in other things. Maybe I sublimated my sexuality into the arts, and you know, just living in New York City, you had enough on your plate as a teenager wearing bell-bottoms during the ’60s. So, when I came up to Boston for college, I remember wanting to go -- I wanted to have the experience of not just all girls’ schools anymore, because I wanted to kind of show myself whether -- whether I was really interested in girls or not. Maybe, if I 2 �felt this strongly towards usually (female) teachers, or movie stars, [00:05:00] who knows how I might feel toward the opposite sex. I never had to worry about that…:) So, I went to Tufts up in the Boston area. And I went primarily because Tufts had studio arts courses at the Museum School, and I was very interested in doing my visual arts. Which were really almost in retrospect I realize--they were almost a form of therapy. If I had one studio arts course per semester, I was fine. I needed a kind of reinforcement. I would call it a spiritual reinforcement that art was able to give me. So I finally was able to come out in college. My sophomore year I basically re-met a friend of mine from camp. And at the end of that year we [00:06:00] became lovers. And we became known as the campus lesbians. We’d walk around arm in arm, a very European thing to do, but at Tufts in those years, it was maybe ’74, ’75, yeah, it was a coming out statement basically. And we would go and speak to classes about being gay. And we attended the first gay pride marches where DOB was also in attendance. Fast forward a few years, I was with a partner, Colleen, who was also a visual artist, and would have her work framed by this wonderful woman in the South End whose name was Sheri Barden. Classic Frames. So we would go, and I got my stuff framed with Sheri as well. [00:07:00] And Colleen introduced me, basically, to the DOB events. We went to the parties. I didn’t so much go to the rap groups. I wish I had. But I don’t remember -- I went to OCBC (Old Cambridge Baptist Church) for a number of things, like dances, where we were dancing topless. That’s one thing I remember. (laughter) LJ: I don’t remember the [topless]. (laughter) LC: Maybe it wasn’t a DOB dance, but it was definitely a women’s dance. It was also very diverse. You know, it wasn’t just white women. Coming out, for me, was a very 3 �important, let’s call it personal-meaning act-- more than just an activity. It was a life course. And also something that gave my life meaning and purpose on a level that was greater than just my own self. It was about, you know, certainly the lesbian/feminist political [00:08:00] agenda, which DOB had less of, but was there in the ether. The social media at the time was basically concerts, and flyers, and books, and Sojourner, and Equal Times, and Gay Community News, eventually Bay Windows. It was a time, a very fertile time, of enlightenment around what was possible—of lightbulbs going off in everybody’s head. And acting on it. We were young enough, and bold enough, or maybe we didn’t know any better, but we could just live what we thought was possible. And groups like DOB really gave us a venue for that. Now, you know, Sheri and Lois’s place in the South End, at that time, in the ’70s, it was -- you needed a certain level of courage to go there at night. It was like the South End was the “hood”—(DOB)was part of the hood. [00:09:00] And it was, you know it wasn’t--let’s say--where you felt the safest. But you got there -- even with the Saints, the bar the Saints, you did everything you could to get there safely, but then once you were there, you were like in a haven. You were in a very, very safe harbor.[…] And then life went on. And, you know, some of us, we became professionals, and we became -- I went into “archi-torture” and we did a bunch of things that, you know, gave us standing and means in our (larger) societies. We also matured emotionally. It was a different set of values that kicked in, in the ’80s, I would say. I was a lesbian, but there was a lot I had to learn about relationships, and about the human heart, [00:10:00] not just the lesbian/feminist female heart. Although a woman’s heart, I think, is very different, can be very different than a man’s. My mother, a consummate narcissist--who loved 4 �being a narcissist--would say “I am a narshissist, my darling”. My mother in some ways helped me become a lesbian because I needed to find the love of a woman, of a mother, that was not narcissistic love. You know, that pretends that it loves, but it doesn’t really love. So, I -- that was a journey through my relationships with women to really learn how to love. Which you know, I realize it’s not just about women. It doesn’t matter, love is love, you know? And I think I’m going to stop for now, and let you ask another question. (laughs) [00:11:00] LJ: Take your time. That gives a little introduction to your life. Basically, I got as you were talking, a feeling that you had known at an early age that you had an interest in women as opposed to men. Can you go back to that a little bit, and identify maybe how you felt as a child, how you felt as a youngster growing up, and as a teenager? And when did that sort of a realization that you started to think about it, at least, if not acting on at that time? LC: I think my first crush was my second grade teacher. You know I don’t remember her name, but Sister someone. I can see her. [00:12:00] I can see her form. She was a slight woman, somewhat tall. But basically my second grade teacher. LJ: Were you in parochial school? LC: I was. I was in parochial school in Washington Heights. A school called Mother Cabrini. Where Mother George was the principal, and Mother George was someone you had to be afraid of. But the other nuns were sweet. Some of them were very sweet. And my second grade teacher was that. So, I remember feeling like wow. And what was -- what was at play was kind of a looking up to this teacher. And also, really appreciating the tenderness that she could show her little students. What are you, you’re seven, eight years old in second grade. [00:13:00] So, that pretty much marked -- whenever I would 5 �get crushed out, it was never someone accessible. Never someone that I could be in a real relationship with. It was just this kind of dream world. I would daydream a lot. And my daydreams would create other realities let’s say. And some of those realities were these kinds of realities of being with the one that I pined for, and doing some heroic thing in that context, and we would be together. It wasn’t sexual, but it was sexual energy that kind of fueled it a bit. I think -- oh my god, I remember with the movie Dr. Dolittle-there were a few teachers in there. But I remember seeing the movie Dr. Doolittle, and having a [00:14:00] big crush on Samantha Eggar with red hair. (laughter) She was, I thought, that British chiseled look I really liked. Opposite from my Italian dark, more Mediterranean, whatever, look. My -- what I did, in terms of my little friends, and when I was in maybe third grade there was a friend, Anita, who I was close with. But somehow it was never -- it’s like I felt affection, but it was certainly not, you know, a sexual thing. I don’t know why. I think I was very late in maturing sexually anyway. But what happened throughout grammar school, and then subsequently high school, is that I formed very close friendships. Not lots of them, but like one or two. [00:15:00] And they sustained me in many ways emotionally. In high school, you know, I was -- I wasn’t “in” -- you know, one thing I always had difficulty with were cliques. Groups, especially in small private schools where I went to eventually, the girls would form cliques. And they could be very, very horrible to -LJ: Vicious. LC: Vicious to anyone who was outside of the clique. But, if I could find one other little girl to be my friend, and even if they were outsiders for completely different reasons… I remember my friend Aurora. And her sister’s name was Lucretia. (laughter) 6 �LJ: Was she Italian? LC: No, no, she was -- her mother was English, her father was American, he was an oil magnate, and they would travel all over the world. And that’s why [00:16:00] Aurora would be in different schools all the time. And I was coming from the Upper West Side, Washington Heights. But with one cultural leg still in Southern Italy where my father was from, including all his family there. So, we were both kind of outsiders, but we could relate as in a sense like foreigners. (laughter) And we became very good friends. And eventually she went on to be a very big powerhouse, and I did not. But it didn’t matter. What mattered is that we had had a really close friendship in very vulnerable and formative years. Those close friendships, however, became something that my mother got jealous of. Not consciously, but unconsciously. And there was one friendship in high school, I was very, very close -- I wasn’t in the “in” group, but I still wore bell bottoms, [00:17:00] I didn’t smoke much pot, but I did go to the Fountain in Central Park, and I did go to the galleries with this one friend. This is New York City, you walked around barefoot, and you go into Madison Avenue galleries so that you can acclimate yourself -- and to the museums too of course. And I did get a very good visual language in terms of contemporary art at that time. And I got a certain, I don’t know, standing as one of the artsy types in high school, so I could kind of fit in. And -- but with this one friend, Lisa, we really resonated on that sort of artsy level. But my mother got jealous. I had wanted Lisa to come the summer of my sophomore year to Switzerland with me. Now, one good thing about my mother, is that she did send me [00:18:00] to whatever she thought would be a good thing in terms of education. The private schools. It was hell on earth, in a way, emotionally, 7 �but it was also very nice -- a nice education. I wanted Lisa to come with me on this summer, you know, two months in Switzerland, the French part of Switzerland. And we were not in a “relationship” by any means, we just liked being together. But my mother told her mother that I really didn’t want Lisa to come with me. And I didn’t know about this. So, that relationship got just decimated, sliced. And, you know, I suffered a lot as a young adult. And I’ve seen the repercussions of that later on in the way that I sometimes have left relationships just like, it’s just like cutting someone’s head off. But it was possibly because it was done to me. [00:19:00] LJ: You wanted to leave the relationship. LC: No, I loved Lisa. LJ: But your mother sliced it off by sending you to Switzerland. LC: No, no, no, not quite like that. My mother -- I mean, I couldn’t just say okay, Lisa, you and I are going to Switzerland. We were 15 years old. So, I asked my mother if Lisa could come with me to Switzerland (and if her mother could pay her way). And instead of saying oh -- to Lisa’s mother, oh, will you send Lisa with Laura to this school? They will learn French in the morning, and then play tennis, or go swimming, or horseback riding in the afternoon. Why don’t you let Lisa go with Laura. No, my mother talked to Lisa’s mother, and said, “Laura doesn’t really want to go with Lisa -- to Switzerland.” [00:20:00] Because Lisa was talking to her mother too. And all of a sudden I was on a plane, and Lisa was nowhere to be seen, and when I returned the new semester Lisa was, needless to say, a little upset. So, my mother didn’t realize that this would be the effect of her manipulations. She’s a big manipulator. She didn’t -- I wouldn’t say -- had she known what she wrought, I don’t think she would have done it. But she did it, and she 8 �wrought a lot of havoc emotionally for a while. But that, let’s call it pain, I think I was able to use in certain ways in my own development. Even though, unfortunately I also -it also crippled me in certain ways too. So, I don’t know, I’m being a little psychoanalytic here. [00:21:00] There’s -- there is a book now, Motherland (by Elissa Altman), I think it’s just come out. And it’s about growing up in New York City with a narcissistic mother. (laughs). And what happens sort of psychologically. I haven’t read the book yet, but there is -- there’s a lot. And when you -- and when you are cut down, your choices are… you can go back with a big sword, fine. But for sure you have to try to heal yourself, and one thing you don’t want to do is form such a big scar that you can never love again. So, a lot of my adult life has been figuring that out. And being able to take on the identity of a lesbian and a lesbian feminist. And having social groups, and political groups, that I could put myself in context. [00:22:00] Give myself an identity that was powerful and good. That was so important to me, you know, human growing up, and coming of age. And being an adult, just being. LJ: Did you ever see her again? LC: Yes, but it was -- but there was a scar there between us. LJ: The relationship had ended in terms of what the relationship was before. LC: Oh yes, yes. And we saw each other again at an alumnae(reunion) many, many years later. And we both recognized how important that relationship had been. But we could -- but neither of us could feel that because we had both set up the scar tissue, you know? LJ: Against it. LC: And it wouldn’t have -- and it was never really -- it was never really a sexual relationship, but it was the most [00:23:00] important relationship of my high school years. In my 9 �college years, that first relationship was certainly the most important. And I didn’t leave it well, I would say. And it was like oh well, we go on, but no we don’t go on. Some relationships are very important, very precious, very deep, very felt, very resonant, and you hang on to them. I’ve only realized this as an older adult. LJ: That’s a very, very touching account of how -- actually how we shape our personality over the years. And particularly in our own particular [niche in] society, [00:24:00] learning the things that you’ve learned. Now, you are an artist, and we would like to know more about your work, and your art, and how it developed, and what you think started you on that road. LC: I have a lot of thanks for nuns. That’s all I can say. My first art teacher was Sister Saint Helen. Fifth grade, 10 years old, at Marymount School, which was run by the Marymount nuns. The building had been one of these huge mansions of the turn of the century that then was -LJ: Where was Marymount? LC: It was on the corner of 84th [00:25:00] and Fifth. LJ: What was the town? LC: In New York. Across the street from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. LJ: (laughter) What a good location. SB: Wow, what a location. LC: Now when you’re 10, mostly you’re interested in the mummy cases (laughter) at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. You know? You don’t care so much about the -- the other art. But you’re looking at these gorgeous turn of the century neo-classical buildings. The building you’re in, which is the school, a French mansard roof type of -- a French 10 �neo-classical building, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art which was more like a renaissance neo-classical building. And to be in a private school where you had art classes. Not just, you know, I knew about Romanesque, and Gothic when I was 10. Not in college. [00:26:00] I knew about the styles of Western art as a tiny tot. And I had Friday afternoons, these two hours of life drawing. We were skinny little 10 year old girls. And we got into our danskins. And Sister Saint Helen had us do life drawing from each other. So, I was drawing the figure, albeit not naked, but you know, danskins that’s pretty close. I was drawing -- I was painting landscapes from National Geographic. Sister Saint Helen would find different beautiful photographs of that time, and then we would pick what we were drawn to and paint that. And then Sister Saint Helen would set up still lives with velvet drapes and fruit, a bowl of fruit, flowers. Light the still life from one side, and we would paint with our temperas, [00:27:00] egg temperas, not oil paints, nothing fancy. Not as difficult as watercolor. But we’d make these pastel, oil pastel, or tempera paintings. They were a good size. My mother would frame them at the time. (If we would have known that Sheri was around, we would have gone to her). (laughter) But that was -- I loved Sister Saint Helen. Not that I had a crush on her, but she really showed me a wonderful way. “Way” with a capital W, how art can really be an incredible evolution of the self, of the spirit, of aesthetics, of beauty, of the goddess, of god, of truth. There’s something about when you are creating--you’re making a thing that has form, carving a sculpture, (oh my god) in stone--that sure does have form—that is form. But what you’re after is the ineffable, what you’re after is something that is not dense at all. Something that is actually closer to emptiness. It’s like the dialectic, the Buddhist dialectic of form versus emptiness. You’re making things, but what you are-- 11 �and those things--are just the trace of a process that has brought you closer to something that does not have form, that is unfigurable, that you can’t really even put into words, or in stone, or in clay, or in oil paint, or in whatever your medium is. And that creative force of the artist was what I was learning at 10 years old. (laughs) [00:29:00] I was being allowed to go there. LJ: She sounds like a wonderful teacher. LC: She was. And she did leave the convent. So, later on -- in high school I would always go on Saturday mornings, 8:00 a.m. in the morning, to the Art Students League. Again, [00:30:00] wonderful to grow up in New York City. SB: My uncle went there. LC: Who went there? SB: My uncle. LC: Oh really? LJ: (inaudible) SB: No, the Art Students League. He became a -- he worked for Hank Ketchum, and drew Dennis the Menace. (laughter) LC: Wow. So, he was an art -- he was an artist. SB: Yeah, he was. LC: And you could do the Art Students League five days a week, or you could do it when you had time, as a student. You know, eight o’clock in the morning. It was not far from the Russian Tea Room on 57th Street. And it was a wonderful place. And it smelled like, you know, charcoals and paints. The old Art Students League. Now it’s another building. 12 �You know, I didn’t like the teacher--the art teacher at my high school. She wouldn’t let me do things. She wanted me to [00:31:00] do technical things, and I wasn’t so interested. (But I attended the Arts Student’s League instead). LJ: Was it a Catholic high school? LC: No, no. Well, Marymount was a Catholic, let’s call it junior high. But then for high school I went to Nightingale, which was not, at all. It was secular -LJ: That was public. LC: Wasn’t a public school either. It was a private school. You had to wear uniforms. You had knee socks that always fell down. And we would stop and pull up the knee socks, and we needed -- I swear we needed taillights. LJ: You sound like a Bermudian policeman. LC: In a way, yes. And if we had had -- and in New York where people are rushing by, you need taillights when you’re stopping to pull up your -- your knee socks. (laughter) So, it was, you know, Nightingale was in the -- it was on 92nd Street between Madison and Fifth. It wasn’t as [00:32:00] prime a location, but pretty close, as Marymount. All these private schools that cost something. Nothing close to what private schools cost now, or of course colleges cost now. But I have to give it to my mother that it was because of her that I got this great education. She cared a lot about it. And she cared about me in that regard, not just how it reflected on her. 13 �Laura at the Museum School in Boston. 1977 LJ: Were you an only child? LC: No, I have a brother five years younger. Five years. We both grew up under the same roof, so we both understand. His spirit took a different turn. His spirit said okay, I’m going to stay here with mom. Not an easy thing on his personality. My spirit said I’m out of here as fast as I can go. (laughter) LJ: Get me out of here. [00:33:00] LC: Yeah. And he and I were always pretty close. In the beginning, the five-year difference took a while. But he was always my -- by my side, and supportive. And I still feel that. Although life has not been easy on him either. So, you know, everybody gets mauled. Nobody gets out alive, right? Most of us, you know, have a thing or two we learn in this incarnation. His path has not been especially easy. LJ: Was your father ever a presence in your life? 14 �LC: Good question. (laughter) He was, but in a sense more as an older brother than as a father. [00:34:00] He loved -- he brought us out on adventures like horseback riding, archery, those little planes on Dikeman Avenue way uptown where you’re along the Hudson River. And those little planes with gasoline engines. They were like very loud little -LJ: These were the little planes, the toy planes? LC: Yeah, yeah. With these wires, and you flew -LJ: Going around and around. LC: Way before any kind of electronics or remote kind of controls. LJ: When did he come from Italy to New York? LC: He must have been, let me see, he must have been about 29 (in 1956). He was entering his “Saturn” return (astrologically) when he came to New York (a few months after my mother arrived). And in Italy he had come into the world as the oldest son of what in Europe would be considered a “noble” family. In Europe it matters about what [00:35:00] “family” you come from, what “kind of a family”. And that’s not just about money. Oftentimes it’s about education, it’s about being “gentle” (ie not working with your hands) like a gentleman, gentlewoman. And it’s also about land. He belonged to the landed aristocracy. But land wasn’t worth that much after the industrial revolution (and the losing side of two world wars). And, we still have the land in our family. I’d love to live on it again a bit, before I leave the planet. But he came from this -- he was the oldest son, the one who got most of the -- of the land, of the stuff. And he was -- he also lost his own father when he was 14 or 15 of leukemia right before the Second World War. And my grandmother had to raise five kids by herself. [00:36:00] And he felt he should be the man in the family and make decisions at 15 or 16. Of course he couldn’t. 15 �And he made some bad moves. So, he lost some of the land, you know, a bunch of things that he should not have done. So, he married my mother, I think he really fell in love with her. She is -- wasn’t really able to love as a narcissist--romantically either, or anybody else. So, he fell in love with her because she had this beehive red hair going up like this. And also he probably fell in love with her because she represented America. Her immigrant father who had nothing, came to America and made big bucks. Not always in the most legit way, I might add, but he was a very aggressive businessman. So, here my mother, who has this image of her father as being -- who never really had much of a father herself, marries this guy [00:37:00] who didn’t have a father. And he could not really be a great dad other than taking us on great adventures. And also, giving us a kind of freedom… The last thing that my father did -- my father died very young, at 55, of cancer, I believe that he had gotten himself in a -- between a rock and a hard place--and the only way out was leaving the planet. He had had a mistress for 13 years. My mother had found out. He could never be a presence. He wasn’t around for dinner. Because he had a dual life. LJ: But he was living in New York. LC: Oh yes, oh yes. But he wasn’t really there. We would go to school, we would come back, we’d do our activities, we’d all have dinner together as a “family”, but we wouldn’t see our father. He’d come back at 2:00 a.m. in the morning. [00:38:00] One thing he did do is bring -- often he would bring us to school early in the morning. So, he slept like four or five hours, and then would drive us to school. That was some time with dad. Not in the summers. The summers we’d go off. He could have his other life. But he was a really good man. He just didn’t, you know, have that -- what the father should have. Out 16 �in the world and also in the home. A kind of knowing where he’s going, you know, and a strength let’s say. But he did have a big heart. I don’t know where else I’m going with this. So, let me be quiet a little bit and see what you come up with. Oh, I know where I’m going with this. When I was in my mid-twenties, [00:39:00] it was my father who was always on an adventure, and who made it possible for me to buy my first condominium. And there was money that had been put -- that had been put in mutual funds, into the stock market, since I was a kid. That money would be like a dowry. It had grown a bit, modestly, because the market didn’t do phenomenal things then. But it was there. And I knew about it. I had been told about it. And, you know, it was -- both my parents at this point knew that I was very happy being with women. My father wasn’t happy about it himself. But he would say it in Italian, which was like a different resonance. It was like oh, she goes with women. You know. Italian, as a language, kind of accepts [00:40:00] the human condition. But also kind of threatens to kick you out of the tribe. In English, I’m a lesbian, I’m a lesbian/feminist, you are in on the frontier, you’re on the American frontier creating new realities. You create your tribe. LJ: The cutting edge. LC: Exactly. And my mother said, oh, you are a lesbian because of me. Everything is because of her. (laughter) But it was possibly because of her. But it was my father, before he died, who said “yes”. I had said I found this great place. It’s an artist’s loft in a renovated synagogue in Cambridge. This is when Cambridge -- when rent control laws had first been taken off the books in Cambridge. So, condominiums were beginning to happen. 1979, 1978, ’79. This condo was being redeveloped [00:41:00] – the building was being redeveloped in ’79. 1980 I bought that condo basically with my dowry money 17 �thanks to my father coming up and saying this is great, I think you can do it. If it was just my mother, it would never ever had happened. LJ: She would have said, no, no. LC: Oh no, $62,000, Cambridge? No, no, no, you cannot do this. You want that, you can get it with your own money. And my father would have gone along. But she wasn’t quite there. And I was not buying it because of--because I knew that real estate values would increase. I got it because I loved the space. I loved the light. LJ: It was a wonderful place. I had the opportunity of being there. LC: Yes, yes. And it still is. [00:42:00] Although I turned it into a two bedroom apartment because that was more pragmatic. But I could always turn it back very easily to that light-filled, you know, very singular large loft space with 11 foot ceilings. It was a really wonderful place. But that gave me, in a way, a freedom, a certain financial freedom. I was always resourceful. So, I never really liked to spend big bucks. I liked to spend money well on things that counted for me financially and in terms of quality of life. That really I cared about. So, it was never about luxury, like my mother. And as a result, I was able to live a free-ish existence with kind of part-time jobs, and even full-time jobs that didn’t last for years and years, I still had a certain freedom. An artistic freedom. And I do feel that [00:43:00] as a human being, if you can live your life as a human artistically, the biggest work is your own life. That’s the mistress piece. LJ: The biggest canvas. LC: Exactly. And sometimes it means you’re not making a body of work either as an artist, or even as a professional. I did go into architecture, but didn’t really pull it off as a profession, or as an identity. But I learned a lot. And part of everything that I’ve done, 18 �and everything that I’ve cared about, and everything that I’ve loved to do in this life, is approaching with that--in a way, “beginner’s mind” of an artist. And it’s that mind-set that yes, you’re in the medium, but ultimately the medium just remains as a trace of your [00:44:00] process, and who you are, and what you learn. And even, eventually, we must give up our bodies. That body, those remains, are just a trace—of the ineffable being of your life. At a certain point, I had some physical challenges--and even worse--psychological challenges. I had a terrible bout of depression which completely brought down my defenses. And there’s reasons I’m not going to go into big detail about why. But when my bodily resource -- when my bodily defenses were really brought down by the depression, that is when I got breast cancer. And fortunately it was found quickly; it was the kind of breast cancer that could be dealt with using hormone therapy. I did lose one breast. But I still have the other one. So, I’m glad for that. And I was never identified with my -- with my feminine, you know, [00:45:00] “babe” body necessarily. You know, I was always kind of in mindspace more. And still in many ways I still am. But it’s what got me out of that real deep, dark place. The mastectomy, which although it was cancer, was not as bad as the deep dark place. But what really got me out of it was basically an art project. And that art project was designing a (mortuary) monument for my life, for myself, and for my wife, Laura Pattison. LJ: Excuse me one moment. (coughing) LC: Do you want water? SB: Do you want some water? LJ: Yes, go. 19 �LC: Throughout the ’70s and ’80s as we, you know, who are in our sixties, mid-sixties now, were coming of age, [00:46:00] and having connections with women, and a political sometimes form to those connections. Oh, we’re lesbian feminists. Which, by the way, I don’t think is as important as being good on a human level. But it was important then. And one of the things we did was bring back some of the iconography of the past. Among that iconography was the Cretan symbol that the Amazons used as a weapon, the labrys, the double-headed axe. And we would wear little silver labryses around our necks, and on our ears, our earrings. And it was a symbol. It was like an unspoken understanding. If you had a labrys oh, you were a lesbian, you were a lesbian feminist, you belonged to the tribe. And I thought that was such -- for me [00:47:00] a precious era of some 20 years. I’m about -- you know, I’m in the mid-sixties, I’m going to have probably less time experientially going forward than what I’ve already lived. And especially when, you know, I came into the dark place of the soul, and breast cancer. This would be a way to celebrate that Amazon life, that -- this particular incarnation as a lesbian feminist. And I’m a stone-carver. I have meditated with marble. Let me do a nice, big, powerful, granite labrys monument, in a beautiful place where I’ve walked often and still do walk, Forest Hills Cemetery, a beautiful park in Jamaica Plain. And in a part of that cemetery that is not like a cemetery, that is the old part of the cemetery. [00:48:00] Really like more a park. There are hills, and little kettle ponds, and just a very resonant place. And so, with my architectural skills, as well as my knowledge of stone, and my stone carving abilities--I didn’t actually carve it myself, but I was able to do measured drawings, dimensional drawings--so that a very good granite sculptor, (yes, a man!) who was the best granite sculptor I could find(laughter), in Vermont, in Barre, 20 �Vermont, would carve this labrys. And it’s -- you know, I’m going to include that image in this interview because I think it will be important. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Yes. That’s just what I was thinking. You need the image. LJ: Yes, we do. LC: So, double-headed axe, my name, and my dates, of course we don’t know the very last [00:49:00] date yet, on one blade, and Laura P. with her mother’s middle name, Laura Ball Pattison, on the other blade. We’re both 64, for all intents and purposes now. And then whoever goes second will arrange to get the remains of the first at the base of the stone. The piece isn’t installed yet. There’s still, you know, those last little details that are just like -- can drive you crazy-- but you just have to have patience to get through. Death’s a different timeline that we’re dealing with. Labrys Headstone for Laura Catanzaro and Laura Pattison at Forest Hills Cemetery in Jamaica Plain, MA. Carved in Deer Isle Granite and set on concrete foundation at base of Fern Hill. Autumn, 2019. 21 �LJ: That’s wonderful. I think that as you talk about that, I think we need to go back a little ways, and find out now that you know, and you are in the context of the women’s movement, [00:50:00] you knew that you were identifying as a lesbian woman, and what relationships came into your life as you went along? LC: The first one was very important in college. That was in my sophomore, junior, and senior years. But there were also three three-year relationships that were important in my twenties. But in between the first and the second there was one shorter term relationship where, having had the first relationship I thought okay, this is lesbianism. I attributed in a way to the “divinity” of lesbianism what I should have attributed to the “priestess”. [00:51:00] I thought oh, loving women is like this, it’s great across the board, this is what it is, you know? No. That was not the case. It was -- it was really the woman, the individual woman, and her heart, and what she brought on a human level really, that was important, and how we resonated. I was -- like with Suzanne, my first lover, it was a pretty heady intellectual kind of a relationship, but we were in heaven. Talking for hours. The second -- the shorter term relationship it was like going to Jacques, to the bars. It was the opposite. (laughs) And that wasn’t as important to me. It wasn’t -- but I learned something. I learned that well, the relationship with them was very important, and precious, and how could I have [00:52:00] let it go. The third relationship was actually a little more on the lesbian feminist front. It was with a woman who would do a lot of work later on toward bringing gay marriage to Massachusetts. Arline Isaacson. She was at Tufts. I’m sure she wouldn’t mind me using her name. And we still, you know, we’re not friends now so much, but when we see each other we fall into a kind of ease of being 22 �of when we were in our early twenties. I was living in Davis Square at the time too. So, I remember the places very -- they become imbued because of the relationship. The apartment, the bedrooms, the importance of place in terms of memory. [00:53:00] LJ: A good lesbian arrangement. LC: Right? (laughter) Well, I never -- did I ever do the U-Haul? I never really did the U-Haul thing I don’t think. SB: Did you live with these relationships? LC: Yes, with Suzanne. Eventually we were -- I mean, we got a great room at Capon House at Tufts. Unfortunately there were some football players -- any upper class people could get the best rooms, and that house was known for fantastic real estate. LJ: Will you explain why that was? LC: One night, I think, I don’t know what had happened. Probably the foot-- the Tuft’s football team had not won, and they were looking for a scapegoat or something. But they were, you know, yelling out bad things about lesbians. And it was one o’clock in the morning, we were asleep. And then we were woken up with this. And it was scary, it was definitely scary. LJ: Where was that located? [00:54:00] LC: This was on campus at Tufts University. And I was -- was I in my junior -- in my senior year at this point. And actually Suzanne -- no, I was in my junior year, and she was in her senior year at this point. There were -- but this was also when we had, you know, Patti Smith, and the vinyl album Horses blaring out. There was so much. So, the football team didn’t have that much, they couldn’t do any home runs as far as we were concerned. Or not home runs, touchdowns as far as we could -- (laughter) But we were -- 23 �but the scariest thing was going to classes, and sometimes being, you know, confronted. People didn’t just listen blithely to what we had to say. So, we were -- we were bold, and we were courageous, and we had to definitely [00:55:00] earn our stripes. But we had these thoughts of the Amazons and powerful women, and we wore the labrys. There was -- the symbology was so important. LC: The image in my mind is the labrys. Because it is a weapon, but it’s also a very spiritual form. I mean, originally it was this form around the temples of Knossos in Crete. And it was -- it was hammered out in gold. LJ: It goes back that far? LC: Oh yes. Before the Greeks. Then the Greeks said there’s this tribe of gals that are killing us, you know? (laughs) LJ: Oh, it goes back to the Amazons? [00:56:00] LC: Yeah, and the Amazons and the Greeks are somewhat concurrent. The early Greeks and the Amazons, yeah, yeah. LJ: Yo To Ho? LC: Yo To Ho? Is that one of her names? LJ: No, Yo To Ho Ho. (singing) LC: Like a call. LJ: Yes, the call. The call of the Amazon women. LC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for me, I think, I think in previous incarnations I was also a warrior, probably male. And there’s something about that, that brings up my fire, let’s say. And there’s, you know, and I was fortunate in this lifetime not to have to deal with going under the yoke that I could be free enough to march as a lesbian warrior. 24 �LJ: As a warrior. Wonderful. Well, it was with Suzanne, did you say? [00:57:00] LC: Suzanne, yes. And then Arline, Arline. And then, the third long-term relationship was Colleen. The in-between there was short ones that just didn’t work for me really. And alcohol didn’t work for me. You know, get yourself drunk and sleep with some -- that did not work for me at all. With Colleen there was this -- it was almost like a Bloomsbury thing. Persephone Press was printing books at the time. They did the Wanderground (by Sally Miller Gearhart). They were a couple of really powerful, amazing women. Both straight now, more or less, with kids, but at that time, absolute Amazons. (Separatist Lesbian Feminists). A publishing house who would have a party once a month, and they gave voice to a number of women writers, and some of the literature was literature. Was really good. [00:58:00] With Colleen, we were like, we were both artists, and we hung out with artists. And Colleen knew where to go for the artists, and for the politics. And Colleen basically introduced me to DOB through Sheri. And then later on I would go to DOB things. She had really the strength, the backbone, of a Midwesterner, but the vision of someone from the Coasts. And she also did martial arts, and I learned to do Taekwon too. We went to the Taekwondo studio together. And that was very powerful to have your body be strong, and to know what to do, and be willing to do it in a physical situation. [00:59:00] It gives you a kind of presence and balance and strength. And all of that really happened when I was with Colleen. I mean, thanks to her in many ways. LJ: That’s very interesting, the images that have led your life, your artistic life particularly. Now you are currently living in Jamaica Plain, could you explain something of the relationship you’re in here now? 25 �LC: Roslindale, yes. But Jamaica Plain is important. Again, place, very important. You know, how in Boston there’s a river. The Charles. (laughter) And there are the two sides of the river. Most of my [01:00:00] -- most of the ’70s and ’80s I lived on the Cambridge side. That loft in the renovated synagogue was in Area Four of the Cambridge side of Boston. And very often I would come to Jamaica Plain for different women’s events. And it was like this exotic place, going to Jamaica Plain, it had the Arboretum, it had the Pond, it had all these lesbians that were like cousins to the Cambridge lesbians. They were not as -they didn’t date back as like the East Cambridge lesbians, but they were still pretty enduring lesbians. They were there from the, you know, early ’70s on. And it was always this sort of exotic thing, Jamaica Plain. Bread and Roses, Amaranth, Modern Times. The same place. (Now it has a stellar female chef and it’s called Oleanna, and it’s extremely expensive, with very, very good cuisine.) But originally, first time that site, that place, that building, became a restaurant was when it was Bread and Roses back in the ’80s. On the other side of the river, not in Jamaica Plain, but in Allston, sort of a student neck of the woods, my current wife had a restaurant. She used money from her [01:02:00] godmother, her “goddess mother”, whose name was Beetle. Beetle gave Laura -- when Laura P. was a tiny tot, as the godmother, left Laura P. some money, which allowed Laura P. to go to Cornell, and also allowed Laura P. to start Beetle’s Lunch. This restaurant in Allston where the line of women would stretch around the block at brunch time. This was the place to be if you were a lesbian feminist, or anything else that was female you could go there. LC: Bread and Roses (was)on Hampshire St. But over on Harvard St. across the river was Beetle’s Lunch, which was another “womyns’” place to be. And it was owned, even 26 �though oh, we do not do private property as lesbian feminists, we just do everybody is doing this restaurant together as -LJ: Amorphous? LC: Actually, it was more like a communal property thing. Colleen and I went to Beetle’s, and there was a [01:04:00] wonderful artist who did beautiful watercolors and acrylics, Ellen Grabiner. And we bought a painting from -- off of Beetle’s Lunch. There was really this currency of culture, a commerce of basics. Like you’ve got to have your eggs (and you’ve got to have your art). I mean, the eggs were like 25 cents. (laughter) So, that’s when I first got to know Laura P. Second time, I was working for an architecture firm in the Back Bay, and Laura P. was working as a librarian at a central branch of the Boston Public Library, Copley. And we just ran each to other, and made a plan to have lunch. We had lunch in front of Trinity Church. And it was nice, but there were certainly no sparks then. [01:05:00] The third time, however, was the charm. (laughter) LJ: It usually is. SB: Yep. LC: Yeah. We were in Provincetown. I was there for an OLE weekend. OLE stands for Older Lesbian Energy, another group that was let’s say more of a social group. Or was it more political? I don’t know. But we would go to P-Town twice a year and hang together. It was like a big slumber party. So, I ran into Laura P. there. I had a friend there, Eileen, who asked Laura P. if she wanted to stay. Laura P. was about to leave. And Eileen said stay. And so, she stayed. And then I gave Laura P. a ride back to Boston. And that was the third time was a charm. I was charmed. I was ginger ale in the bloodstream kind of 27 �charmed. [01:06:00] (laughs) And that’s -- then the next weekend was Gay Pride. And so, I said, let’s go to Gay Pride. And Laura P. said to her friend Hadassah, “I don’t know if this is a date, or if it’s just…” -- that’s one thing with women, you don’t know exactly. You don’t assume it’s a date. It could just be let’s hang out and be political together. Let’s hang out and have fun and dance, or whatever. It’s hard to say whether someone is quote “interested” in you romantically. You don’t know that until maybe a little bit later. And so, at the end of Gay Pride Laura P. knew that it was a date and not just let’s go to Gay Pride. (laughter) And then -- and then we were -- it was interesting. It’s like the opposite of the U-Haul relationship. I was in Cambridge, I didn’t want [01:07:00] to leave Cambridge. Laura P. was in Jamaica Plain. LJ: Would you explain for people who will be listening to this, what is a U-Haul relationship? LC: Yes. (laughter) A U-Haul relationship in lesbian parlance is when two women have an attraction that becomes consummated usually, and then it’s like all hell breaks loose, they become -- it becomes an attraction that is so extreme that you have to move in together immediately. Immediately. No, you want to be -- you can’t be ever without that -- the beloved. [01:08:00] To the point sometimes that you become attached at the hip and everywhere else. And that’s, I don’t think, the healthiest thing. But what appears to happen is oh, there are two gals, and they like each other, and oh my god they slept together, and oh my god they’re moving in together, like immediately. They don’t really even know each other. And then, you know, then there’s this thing called serial monogamy, you don’t know each other, you do get to know each other, and you say sayonara, and you’re on to the next in the same kind of -- I don’t know how a psychology 28 �would describe it. But it’s a kind of serial, you know, intensity, passion, and what you’re really seeing is your own reflection, frankly, physically. LJ: And physically what happens is that the U-Haul -- and for purposes of 50 years from now, a U-Haul is? (laughter) [01:09:00] LC: Yes, a U-Haul is something (a vehicle) you rent for the day to put in your belongings if you are moving. Well, in those days, you were moving not a huge quantity of stuff. But still, your stuff, your furniture, your bed, your clothes. Nowadays a U-Haul is practically, is a huge trailer. But in those days it was a small vehicle with an attached trailer in which you could put what you owned, everything you had in this world, as a lesbian, in one small cubic volume of space, and bring it to your new lover’s house and move in. LJ: Unless she was moving in with you. LC: Right. And then she had her U-Haul. LJ: Thank you. (laughter) [01:10:00] Wonderful. And I did interrupt. I hope I didn’t interrupt a stream of consciousness to get back to as we -- you would -- I think ending our discussion about what a U-Haul relationship was. Was there more you wanted to say about that? LC: Yes, absolutely. So, with Laura P. it was never -- it was the opp-- we were very vigilant about not having it be a U-Haul relationship. Keeping our own separate spaces. Because a space is an extension of one’s self. Especially as an architect I recognize that. An extension of an individual, an extension of a society. We -- we kept kind of separate, but what I found myself doing was that I was kind of -- I crossed the river to be in Jamaica Plain near Laura P. Now part of [01:11:00] that was pragmatics. And part of that was also my job. I had gotten a job with the City of Boston, and I needed to be a resident of 29 �the City of Boston, so I couldn’t live in Cambridge anymore if I wanted that job. But I knew I didn’t want to move in with Laura P., but I moved in down the street. And that worked out pretty well. Having our individual spaces helped in the beginning. The first few years of the relationship maybe. I would say, we didn’t move in together for -- let me see. [01:12:00] We got together in 2000. We didn’t move in together until about 2009. Yeah. And then the apartment upstairs from Laura P. was for sale, and I bought it. And there we were in this relationship where we were living together under the same roof, but not in the same apartment. Ultimately we got to living in the same apartment, whether it was the second floor apartment, or the third floor apartment. We do well with that spatial potential of a whole other apartment. [01:13:00] It’s a strange living arrangement, but it works for us. So that we can be close. It’s not like living on Beacon Hill, mind you. It’s not like you stretch one arm’s length and you can touch everything you own. (laughter) Because (there) it’s such a teeny place. But it’s still a small space. So, we could be close -- we could be close and together, and still have all of our stuff in two different apartments. So, the U-Haul is out of the picture in many different ways. And nowadays you don’t inhabit your physical body so much anyway because you’re online, or on a computer, you’re in some other -- you’re in the Ether-net, you’re in the inter-- what do they call it? In the cloud. LJ: In the cloud, yeah. LC: I had a friend who said -- when I said oh, you’re in the cloud, and then she looked at me like I was crazy. SB: I was going to ask you, do you still have separate spaces for yourselves? 30 �LC: Yes, but sometimes Laura P. uses my space because it has central air, and I hate air conditioning. And sometimes we use her space because she has nice old fashioned radiators, and I like the way they radiate heat. And then the garden, and the gaze onto the garden--we are both very protective of that. And it’s so much about nature, that we know this is how nature -- you share. You don’t have apartments in nature. You have the birds, and the breeze. LJ: This is a backyard garden? LC: [01:15:00] It is. It is. But in Roslindale the lots are different than they are in J.P. for example. Because Roslindale’s topography is hills and dales, lots of hills and dales. So, the lots are long. So, this house, which isn’t even -- which was probably the second house built in the area. Before there were even streets it was a farmhouse, turn of the century. It is, first of all, it’s set back way more than anything else because it was there before the street came. Secondly, it has a back yard that goes up and extends very far back. And the previous owner was a mason and a gardener, and what he did was build these outdoor rooms. He terraced everything in a very [01:16:00] wonderful way. So, you look at this garden, and you think you’re on an estate or something. But it’s not overly manicured, especially with us, it’s not manicured at all. It’s totally wild. And things just grow, and we let them grow. Then, Laura P. does great gardening. She just throws something down and it sprouts up as a beautiful thing to eat, or to look at. And I’m learning about gardening. I grew up in New York City. I thought you had to build every blade of grass. (laughter) No, it grows by itself. SB: That’s a good one. 31 �LC: We’ve figured out a way of, you know, navigating together. And even if it is sometimes, okay, let’s get some space, time out, let’s get -- there’s -- there’s a wonderful [01:17:00] range that we cover. And a wonderful teamwork, precisely by being so different, so opposite. Not in terms of gender, but in terms of our spirits. When you put the two of us together doing one thing we really -- we really cover the terrain. LJ: You cover the (range) with your different types of personality. LC: Exactly. SB: It reminds me a little bit of Pam and I. We’re very different. LC: But when you’re mature enough you can handle that. But are you mature enough? SB: Yes, I am. Finally, I’m 72. LJ: That’s very young, my dear. (laughter) Sheri and I -SB: Never mind, it’s not about me. LJ: Sheri and I have found, you know, how different we [01:18:00] are. Everybody -- I think that the people often say oh, you’re so different, how do you get along. Well, people, as you are describing so vividly, have found a way to do that because there is love here binding. Then there is this person, and that person, and there is the whole person. So, that relationship began in early 2000s. LC: Even though we had known each other since the ’80s. Laura P. would come to art openings, and I would go to Beetle’s Lunch. LJ: And you met her just as an incidental person who happened to be there. LC: Yes, but then I was really -- [01:19:00] there were things I was really drawn to her. I mean, besides just being attracted to her. She had not quite red hair, but auburn-ish hair, light blue eyes, chiseled kind of, you know, a sort of Brit -- a Brit and a little bit of French, a 32 �little bit of Irish, a lot of Irish probably. But also, on a level -- she had so -- she has so much integrity. And here I’m coming from this -- the seat of the pants Italian on my mother’s father’s side. And here’s someone who cares so much about doing the right thing. And at first it was just like Wow(!). Now I have learned that sometimes all of the “isms” become just that, isms (like Capitalism, Racism, and conversely Feminism, Lesbianism, even Humanism) [01:20:00] The question is on a human level-- is this really the right thing to do. Sometimes you do the wrong thing to do the right thing emotionally, or on a human level. For another human being you don’t always, you don’t say oh well, this is the right thing, and I’ve got to do this, and be tough/rigid, you know. That purism is not what I’m about at all. So, Laura P. has learned something about that from me. And I have learned about integrity on a very deep level from her. Among other things. But that was one of the things that really, really drew me. And I think she gets that in her lineage, both sides. Her father’s especially. LJ: That’s interesting. LC: She would give you a very different interview, by the way, than what I’m giving you. And a different take on our relationship. [01:21:00] LJ: You have a very artistic way of putting even the interviews of your life, because that’s how you’re identifying. And she’s identifying I would assume in a much different way. But we will talk to her. LC: Oh yes. (laughter) LJ: We will talk to everybody. As long as we have time. There were a couple of other things I wanted to ask you. Just because this particular interview will include, of course, major things of your life, which you have told us. But it also is centered on Daughter of Bilitis. 33 �[01:22:00] Could you give us some commentary as to what you felt about the organization, of the people that you met? I know you didn’t have a long relationship with it. But you did go at sometimes. Did it have an effect on your life? Was it helpful? Was it neutral? Or whatever you want to say. LC: You have a way of asking questions that does bring things up, brings things to mind that would not otherwise has surfaced, Lois, so thank you. First of all, Daughters of Bilitis, and the (image of the) Lyre—that iconic brand of DOB, the graphic design of the Lyre. Who played the Lyre? [01:23:00] Daughters of Bilitis banner with Lyre logo. Boston Gay Pride March, circa early 1970’s It was -- it was our wonderful poet, Sappho. Again, having this thing that we can look to, whether it’s to the past, or to the future, or about who we are, and who we’re becoming, we are daughters. We are daughters of this woman who lived in classical Greece, am I 34 �correct? And where something like music was obviously important. And what is music? Just like the visual arts, there’s something about music that oftentimes, without words, without the conceptual or cognitive verbal force, can give us places to go, feelings to feel. We can feel so intensely. [01:24:00] Look at how -- look at how Sheri listens to a soprano, and how both of us could be brought out on a stretcher after we listen to Leontyne Price singing Madame Butterfly. There’s something about music. It’s a vibration. It’s this -- this energy that -- that can be frankly very transformative. So, you are, you know, you’re in your twenties or your thirties, you’re in the ’70s and the ’80s, there are these women and all at once you say, “Oh my god they’re beautiful women”, and they’re strong women. And they are women that are worthy within a tribe, a society. Even though the rest of society makes them completely invisible at best, and felons at worst. Lesbians, lesbian, that word, you know? [01:25:00] LJ: Which we had difficulty owning. LC: Yeah, in the beginning. Oh, we’re gay. We’re gay. Or the rainbow flag, we’re rainbow flag. But no, we are lesbians. We are feminists. We are women. That’s a very, very piercing, sharp, precise identity. And yeah, music, the women’s music festivals. Women’s music. Okay, maybe not music that will go down in his-story, but certainly down in hys, H-Y-S or her-story. That music kept us going. When I brought Holly Near albums during college breaks, and I had to show up for Christmas in New York, what got me through those days? Listening to Holly Near. “Hay Una Mujer,” and [01:26:00] wonderful songs that were empowering songs. Chris Williamson, “Rainy Day,” you know, beautiful, sometimes very sad, but beautiful and empowering songs. And that -that gave us something. It gave us a dimension in which to be. It’s like, you know, you 35 �need three dimensions to have your body, you need three dimensions, and a fourth dimension, time. In a way DOB gave us that dimension, that place to be, and to find out who we were. And I remember, oh my god. Okay, have to kind of -- there was a Thanksgiving gathering at Ryles. It was later on. I wasn’t with Colleen anymore. I was still living in Cambridge. [01:27:00] This was before Laura P. And I went to that Thanksgiving. It wasn’t on Thanksgiving, it was like the day after, whenever. I went to that, and I met Liane, who became -- we became lovers very briefly. She had never been with a woman but she was going to -- she, musically is a very powerful force in Boston I would say. When she arrived in Boston in the 1990s, she railed at the Hatch Shell because it had only male composers incised in its granite. Basically lining the -LJ: I remember that. Yeah. LC: And, you know, we have -- Boston has a very important female composer of the 1900s, Amy Beach. So, Liane was saying, what is this, and she did a lot of things. In order -with the Women’s Heritage Trail, with, you know, [01:28:00] the Parks Department. She did quite a bit of political and activist type work to get Amy Beach and her dates on the Hatch Shell. It was no small thing. And she continued with women’s music. We assume, oh, this great composer. Yes, men have written beautiful music. Sometimes you think, how could this have been written by a man, it’s so beautiful. (laughter) But they did. And that’s -- and that’s a fact. But you know what? There are plenty of wonderful women composers, and musicians, that saved a lot of women’s lives. So, here I go to a DOB Thanksgiving gathering, meet Liane, who is just like she is on the path, the warpath to put Amy Beach on the Hatch Shell, she was on the warpath to get herself a lesbian lover. (laughter) So, I become that lesbian lover. [01:29:00] And then we found that we 36 �were much better as friends. We’re still good friends to this day. So, I have DOB to thank for -- to thank for Liane’s friendship in many ways. LJ: That’s wonderful. LC: And then much later on, I mean, most of my dealings I just remember going to those parties and hanging out, dancing. But most of my dealings were really more like peripherally through Sheri, for example, bringing her something to frame. And also getting to know the cats of your house very well. (laughter) That big orange one. LJ: The cat house. LC: The cat house. (laughter) LJ: (laughter; inaudible) SB: How many cats did you have? LJ: Oh my god. Over the years we probably had 20 cats from the Animal Rescue League. All from there. All rescues. [01:30:00] SB: Well, you were right near the animal rescue. LJ: Rescued themselves and rescued us. You know, because we loved them so much. We still do. We love the babies. LC: Well, that orange one I will never forget. The big huge orange one. LJ: Oh, a big one who had a purr. He used to sleep by my head, and he would snore, and wake me up. (laughter) He was a dear cat. Rescued from an apartment on Beacon Hill. LC: Wow. I do have -- toward the end of DOB I remember being approached by Stephanie Marcos. I don’t remember the -- how that came to be. And she said, “We have to keep this going.” And so, I did what I could. If there were things going on I would go. But it never really was the same. It wasn’t the kind of [01:31:00] open, free, and large group of 37 �women that were, you know, that were having enlightenment, and sparkles happening by their -- and sparks happening. SB: Was this after Lois had stepped down? LC: Yes, yes. This was after Lois had stepped down. And I wanted -- it’s like I wanted -- there was a part of me that because the organization had been so, so important even though I was very peripheral to it, I wasn’t really central, I didn’t work within it. I attended a few of the events, parties. I wanted to keep it going. Like, it was important to try to keep it going. But at that point it became more like this task as opposed to this dimension where sparks and sparkles could happen. And where change could happen, [01:32:00] evolution could happen. And it being okay to be, and to be a woman. Not just okay, but great to be a woman, and a Daughter of Bilitis. LJ: Thank you. That’s lovely. LC: Thank you. LJ: You are so wonderful in the way you describe things. LC: Oh, thank you, Lois. LJ: I think you have covered so much. And I’d like to know are there any other things that you would like to say, or you would like to explore as a lesbian? LC: Well, I just want to say how grateful I am to DOB, to both of you, for -- for doing this, for documenting this. [01:33:00] For saying to the world, and the future, that it is important. And to celebrate it. It’s okay, we’re on the planet for however long we’re on the planet. We are who we are. And let us really celebrate who we are, and not forget it. Not forget it. SB: And you’re an integral part of it. 38 �LJ: You certainly are. Wonderful, wonderful interview. Thank you. LC: Thank you. SB: Yes, great interview. LJ: You’re so artistic in your words, and in your creations, and in your life. Thank you. LC: Okay. Thank you both. Thank you to you both. END OF AUDIO FILE 39 �The Labrys at Forest Hills Cemetery Winter, 2020 40 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Catanzaro, Laura Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Laura Catanzaro, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-02 Description An account of the resource Interview with Laura Catanzaro for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Catanzaro, Laura; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/eee3743837d3dc33ccbacb241f4f8aa5.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=jMu8nlNtsQAPaPmfvM3MpjJGm4eiHDapgl2rLeqDuLii-SXbZW-7iM40Do7qdMdeyb7Sq2NtXB03l8J0v%7E1RWYGXgkvINnCD8ptucRm-WuuWe8mLoCFfcvfTwZuQnIp8qZiPOC-WBOq%7EAUDNXXvFsJ-NwkazhNANEt%7Exd40MXo8AzCEHjhWqeR40ajkInwJYSbZrHUNU6nNJfrKOoqvYArygPJp0CkAjtakIkjpsQQtLuOQbCRbtyfvbgWFirn3SOQN42g0xUZ2dJwjjEorTouTod3stF5pCeQP-O4VLMsTA1QhBZaM9%7EqdCCxA5Yk46-pQf5pbEJ9F-eruIq5fekQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 8db1f3980bd054a5c08cd3fe9c62abd7 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/850536969e72667b94726cd0d894bd22.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ldFGFNLZ%7E1y63akzd1msYZueMY23tLeRw%7EHLGg6Ke8SR1Se29gy20JLy8Nue--A4dyQwtmWpXrO9f6PVS9hGL8jdHE8Ko9-RTJJGRxv617XaPi88Pqj3qcmuuCP2R4wk1iL7evi9wD2JtmuhrOQK8Q7F15%7EJsiHIzuVhAtj7Hz4Ucll0Goq1-XP2YYILnDjogpMFWHpn6U4HNawmEQl7yVlYmE-vNY1ZECFfh5KPuHUmvV1V7Sd46fQMNNwelLq06bsADx3cTn0qhhRfgz%7EAmFF8IAlL11ikxEFg8zOZSZYZnRC9Ifhw54DGjQGgaMm545iT6brEYbIul1KAls-1gw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1287b576a868a55aaa2dca922fa035d9 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Sheila Ardery Interviewers: Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, Laura Catanzaro March 15, 2019 �SARAH BOYER: This is the DOB project, and we have Lois Johnson, who’s going to be the interviewer. And Sheila... SHEILA ARDERY: Ardery. SB: Ardery, who is our interviewee. And I’m Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro is here also. So, we’ve got a grand ‘ole party going here. (laughter) Anyway, this is wonderful to see you, Sheila. And Lois, would you like to start? LOIS JOHNSON: Yes, indeed. I would also like to add to that, this is being made at a location in Jamaica Plain, at Springhouse, which is an independent living facility. Am I speaking loud enough? SB: Yes, you are. You’re fine. LJ: Okay, I’m projecting. I would say, Sheila, thank you so much for doing this. SA: I’m honored, actually. [00:01:00] LJ: We are honored indeed, too. The first thing, we’d like to have some context for the interview. The interview is going to be primarily about DOB, or Daughters of Bilitis, an organization which was in Boston for, well, 25 years. And the first thing I would like to do is to ask you about your early years, you know, where you were born, where you were living, what kind of family life, anything you want to tell us. And where you went to school, etc. SA: Well, I grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania, born in 1947, May 13, 1947, into a typical American, bluecollar family. My dad was a carpenter, [00:02:00] and then became a construction superintendent. My mom was a housewife who, after we all [grew] up and went away, did things like work at the local retail store or something. Nothing big. And I went -- we were an Irish Catholic family, blue collar. I went to 12 years of Catholic school. And I had a nice -- I’m not complaining about my upbringing at all. I think it was a good thing. We also owned cottages most of my life, on the lake, so we spent summers being on the lake. And I had good friends. I’m still in touch with my high school friends. Erie was 130,000 people at the time, so it had kind of a small-town feel to it. And a lot of people still live there, and they raised their kids there, and 1 �so that was very nice. The complication [00:03:00] began when I didn’t want to get married. When I was about 20 and 21, I realized that my love of being with my -- oh, I went to an all-girls school, too, high school. That my love of being with my high school friends was, first of all, getting disrupted because they were getting married. And secondly, I didn’t want to get married. And I felt bad about that, but I didn’t exactly think... I didn’t have the words for it. I didn’t have the environment for it, exactly. But I became somewhat unhappy. So, I just kind of -- I didn’t want to be a nun, either, which was the obvious, obvious thing, you know, other thing. LJ: That was the other thing. SA: But I didn’t want to be a nun. And I didn’t want to be a teacher, and I didn’t want to be a social worker, and I didn’t want to be a nurse. And I didn’t want to get married. So, it was a funny place to be in for a woman [00:04:00] in 1967, ‘68. So, I went to work for the Hammermill, because that’s what you did there. You went to the GE or the Hammermill or many of the wonderful manufacturing companies that no longer exist there. And I started getting... You could, at that point in time, they paid for your education, if you went to Penn State. So, I was getting free education in the evening. So, at 24, I decided to go and get my degree. So, then I spent two years down at Penn State. During that time, I was hanging out with a bunch of hippies, because we had this all-volunteer drug crisis center. I was turning from a preppy to a hippie, basically. And my place was getting a little large, my head was expanding, my consciousness was expanding [00:05:00] a little more. We’re going into the early ‘70s, too. I also got involved with the anti-war movement through the Benedictines. And so, we did this thing called the PAX Center. We did educational programs. So, my middle years of that, besides working and going to school, were around social issues. The drug crisis center was ‘72, ‘74, until I left to go to Penn State. And the PAX Center was about that same time, too. And I met wonderful people through that. But when I got down to Penn State, I thought, “I’ve got to get serious about this relationship stuff. I’m like, mid-20s, and I haven’t done anything yet.” So, I decided I was going to try to date this guy, but it didn’t work out. And I just, it’s not like guys [00:06:00] didn’t come along 2 �the way. Of course they did. But I just was never hooked on them. And I really loved my girlfriends. And I began to become more aware of the fact that I was actually sexually attracted to women, in addition to just emotionally. So, when I went there, I actually stayed away from the Women’s Center at Penn State, because I thought, I don’t want to get more sucked in, basically. And because I still had this idea of myself. I was like Ethel Kennedy. I was going to be Ethel Kennedy. I was going to marry some nice guy, and we were going to have like eight kids. And then I went back, and it was ‘74. And I had a job lined up. But this woman by the name of Sister Peter Claver, who ran something called the House of Prayer, and was from the Catholic Worker [00:07:00] Movement, she actually gave Dorothy Day her first dollar. And so, she was in Erie, and she had gotten all the women together to start a women’s shelter, because there was no place for women to go. And they were actually brought to the jail to spend the night, because they didn’t have any place else, if... And so, I told her I’d give her six months. And in the meantime, you know, she hooked me into it, first of all. So I went with the idea that I was going to spend six months living in this house that was a shelter for women. We could take in about three families and two adults. And there was two of us. Somebody from the PAX Center, actually, and myself did it. And I stayed for six years. We grew the program. I have a talent for administration, let’s say it that way. So we grew the [00:08:00] program. And in the meantime, I became connected to women down in Harrisburg who were meeting to start the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Domestic Violence (PCADV). And that really opened my eyes up, because in all of my experiences of Erie -– and like I said, I avoided this in Penn State, I just hung out with my friends that I knew –- all of my experience in Erie, every lesbian I met, of course, was outside the box. Because if you’re in Erie, you’re not going to get outside that box if you care at all about your propriety or whatever. So I’ve always felt like that wasn’t me. But then, I went, and these wonderful women, who were lesbians, who were lawyers, who were family members, they had kids, they had partnerships. And it was like, that’s me. That is me. And so it was [00:09:00] like ‘74, ‘75. I mean, I wasn’t young. I had to be almost 27. And I started meeting, and in fact, I got 3 �involved with a woman down at (laughs) PCADV. I also became, I’m quite proud of, the second president of PCADV. And so, we took that and ran with it for a while. And then, in 1982, I decided that I -- I tried to go to graduate school in Erie. By that time, I was Director of Hospitality House, going to graduate school at Gannon for a Master’s in Public Administration, and president of PCADV. And a closeted lesbian with another closeted lesbian roommate, and a straight roommate, and two gay guys upstairs. I mean, we were the [00:10:00] original Friends, let me tell you. We had a lot of fun. And I was coming out. I was coming out. So I thought, “I cannot stay in this town. Even though I have built a life for myself, it’s confining me. I can’t grow here.” And just an aside -SB: You’re talking about Erie? SA: Erie. SB: Okay. SA: And I looked around, and I thought, “If I were to leave, what do I want to do? I want to get out of sheltering and into housing.” And I looked at the Erie Housing Authority, and John Horan was my age. So, in Erie, you know John Horan was going to stay there until he retired, because that was his job. I looked at a non-profit housing organization called HANDS that was founded by Chuck Scalise, Sr. And Chuck Scalise, Jr. was the assistant director. So you knew that Chuck Scalise, Jr. was going to be the director of HANDS. And there was really no other housing. And so, I said, “Well, besides the fact that I was getting more -- I had met people from Mass [00:11:00] and women from Massachusetts, I had met lesbians from Massachusetts, and I was like, “I’m going to Mecca.” Boston, you know. It was Mecca to me. And so I arrived. I got into Tufts, got a, what do you call it, a scholarship and some assistance. And the very, very first day that I was sitting there, I was sitting next to Heather Hersee. And Heather and I just had an affinity off the bat. But neither of us -- I didn’t know she was a lesbian, she didn’t know I was a lesbian. We just were classmates together. And it really wasn’t until about three months later, when she invited me to the Marquis, and I walked into the Marquis, that we could actually say to 4 �each other, “Oh, you’re a lesbian.” (laughter) It was really funny. And then we became buddies, and Heather brought me to DOB. So that’s the background. LJ: That’s wonderful. [00:12:00] SA: Yeah. LJ: Oh my goodness. Could you tell us a little bit more about your family, and you know, and your relationship to your mother, father, siblings? SA: Oh, yeah. I have one sibling, Gail, who’s nine -- eight and a half years younger than me, and who moved to San Diego when she was 18. So honestly, we didn’t really make our acquaintance to each other much until about 20 years ago or so, when she moved back. I mean, we always recognized, you know, we got together for holidays and everything. But she got out of Erie as fast as she could. And she wasn’t a lesbian. She just wanted out of Erie. And so she went to San Diego until her mid-30s. And then she came back to Erie. My mom and dad, my mom was 28 when she had me. Dad, of course, served in -- she was faithful to my dad while he served in the service and then came home. And they started a life together [00:13:00] and a small family. And I only had an aunt and an uncle, my Aunt Rita and my uncle. They didn’t have any kids that we were close to. On my dad’s side, we had his brother, Jim, and his wife and kids. But then, as families do, they had a falling out. But that wasn’t until many, many years later. But that’s kind of who I grew up in the middle of. Oh, and when I was little, Dad, because he was from a rural area in Appalachia, everybody came up to live with us for a while so that they could get jobs. So I was, as a little kid, was surrounded by Aunt Louise and Uncle Jim and grandpa at different times, or always. And I’m sure that was a terrible stress on my mother, because we didn’t have a big house. But, that’s the way life was then. And so -- but my mom and dad were very much involved in [00:14:00] my life. I went to a parish grade school, and they were active in the parish. And they volunteered for things. And then, when I went to high school, I always say my mom and dad came home from my prom later than I did, because they were the chaperones. 5 �(laughter) So they were involved in my life. My mom -- my dad was the typical dad, kind of in the background. Kind of. LJ: He was a typical ‘50s dad? SA: He was a typical ‘50s, working-class dad. And I did things with him. You know, I painted the fence, and I did stuff. And we ate every night at dinner, and all that kind of stuff. But as far as decision-making and stuff like that, my mom was the real kid-tender. [00:15:00] But she was one of those -- and this is why I didn’t go to school until I was 24, because she was one of those -- I give her credit, because most mothers can’t do this. But “Whatever you think, honey. Whatever you think.” Well, it left me a little aimless. So nobody pushed me to go to college. In fact, when I was taking sociology courses because I could, from Hammermill for free at Penn State, it was a sociology professor who pulled me aside and said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “Well, I can take these classes. I don’t have anything to do in the evening. I might as well go to college, because I can do it for free.” And he said, “You’re smart. You should really think about finishing your degree. What’s your aim in life?” At that time, I was just such a mess. I didn’t have an aim. And so he really encouraged me, said, “If you need any help at all, let me know.” So I have tried to pass that on, [00:16:00] as a manager or whatever. I encourage people who are early on trying to figure out what they’re trying to do and stuff, I really try to give them maybe that little push that you need to give you a little focus and go. But my mom was, I mean, nobody went to college in my family, so why was that important? I actually took secretarial courses, predominantly because I had a crush on Gail Soliwoda, and she was taking -- yeah, really. And so, my mom was a very easy-going person that way. But when it came -- you know, we had no consciousness about lesbianism, so it wasn’t even on the table in the ‘60s and the ‘70s. There was none of that. But yeah, she was a very kind-hearted person. And we had these cottages in the summer, so we kind of played [00:17:00] together, the family did, which I think was really a big help. And yeah. 6 �SB: Can I just ask you, it’s obvious that you started thinking about -- started having crushes on your girlfriends and whatever. SA: Yeah, yeah. SB: But being brought up Catholic myself, I had no inkling of any feelings about women at all. It wasn’t even on the screen whatsoever until I got into high school. Was it -- I take it it was never talked about at all in your house? Or -SA: No. SB: There was no discussion of it. Did you feel anything different about yourself, though, when you were a child? SA: Yes, I did. And I think a lot about transgender kids, because I’m quite comfortable having been a woman, [00:18:00] a cis woman my entire life. But I think I’m a cis woman with some butch, not really big butch. But when I was a little kid, I hung out with the guys, because that’s who was in our neighborhood, actually. David and Gary were my two best friends. Marlene went away for the summer. When I was little, we didn’t have this cottage all summer long. But the people that I hung with, and my best friend was Gary. And I said to my dad -– now, you’ve got to understand, my dad’s a working-class guy -– and I said, “Gary was a very sensitive guy, wasn’t he?” He said, “Yeah. I always thought he was a Nancy boy.” (laughter) So here we have me. Oh, my mom’s favorite story about me is that we were about six years old or something like that, and we’re playing out in the backyard, she can hear us. And he said, “I want to play house.” I said, “Oh, I want to play sheriff.” [00:19:00] No, “I want to play cowboys and Indians.” And he said, “Well,” you know, we went back and forth, back and forth. And I said, “Okay, Gary. We’re going to play house. You be the daddy, and I’ll be the sheriff.” (laughter) Isn’t that great? My mother told that a hundred times. SB: I love it. SA: Yeah. And she was a tomboy growing up. So, you know, to her, I was just following in her footsteps, because she was a tomboy. And so yeah, it was a pretty -- nobody -- you know, I 7 �didn’t feel guilty about anything. And actually when you’re, did you go to an all-girls high school? SB: Oh, no. (laughs) SA: Well, people had crushes. They just did. And Gail couldn’t go until she was 21. Her mother wouldn’t let her. But she went into the White Sisters of Africa. So she was my big unrequited love, because we were close after getting out of high school. And -- maybe she [00:20:00] went when she was 20. I don’t know. It was a couple of years, though. But we’re friends to this day, and she did leave White Sisters. She did go into a marriage, had two kids. And now, she’s in a relationship with a woman in the end. So I always knew that. And that’s been about 15 years now. So yeah, I had -- but, I read somewhere, and it really stuck with me. And I just thought of it, that this is a phase. And I just thought I was a late bloomer, and that I would get interested. And I did have a guy that I dated. Ironically, his name was Wally, and my dad’s name is Wally. But he was tall and handsome and blue-eyed and blonde, and he was going to inherit his aunt’s company. He was, to me, what I wanted in Erie. And I wanted to marry him. He came from a big family, I was friends with his sister. [00:21:00] And I wanted to marry him. I had this idea, “I’ll marry him, and we’ll have like eight kids and just have fun.” (phone rings) Uh-oh. LC: I’m sorry, I should have -SA: That’s okay. (ringing stops) And that had to be, I took him to my first class reunion, so it was around, I was around 21, I remember. And we did mess around a little bit. But it just didn’t work out, and we just had to go our separate ways. He was a good guy, though. But that left me with a lot of confusion. And then that’s how I got to be a hippie for a while, and I just hung around with a bunch of people that, you know, we just had some good times, but I was never attached to anybody. [00:22:00] LJ: You’ve given us a nice, rounded feeling about things. SA: (laughs) Good, thank you. 8 �LJ: And it’s very interesting. During that time, let’s talk a little bit about your work. I think that you did touch on that, but could you expand just a little more on that? SA: Well, I think I’ve always -- I did work for the Hammermill, but I’ve always been attracted to nonprofits. When I got out of high school, I really wanted to go to work for the Civil Rights Department at Erie City Hall, but I couldn’t get in. But, my work has always been, since 1974, has always been around housing. So those [00:23:00] six years, I actually lived in for over two years in this building, as a -- taking care of the shelter with another woman. And we had a bedroom upstairs. And we had a pull-out couch in the living room. So, one of us, for a week, would sleep in the living room, and one would have the privacy of the upstairs, and then we would switch. And that was because, many times, people came in the middle of the night, and you had to answer the door. So, we did that for two years. And then we finally, the diocese gave us a loan to buy a house that was more adequate to our needs. It was owned by a doctor. It had four bedrooms, had a lot of common area space, and it had offices on the side, because in the old days, doctors had their offices in their homes. And this house was built for that. So that was just a prize. And so, we did that. And so, I was, from 1974 to [00:24:00] ‘81, maybe going into ‘82, at the domestic violence shelter. And like I said, I was heavily involved in Pennsylvania Coalition Against Domestic Violence. SB: And where was that? SA: Well, it was based in Harrisburg. The offices were in Harrisburg, but it was a membership coalition. And I became the second, like, I was the first vice president of the west. We defined -Pennsylvania’s big, so we couldn’t figure out if Carol or I should be the vice president. So, a good feminist thing, we decided to divide the state up into west and east. And Carol became the east, because she was Scranton. And I became the west, because I was Erie. So, we had two vice presidents to start. And then I became the second vice president. And that seems to be my talent, as it comes to, is [00:25:00] in non-profits. I found myself very often being the second president, which means that the vision goes first. And then the operations, how to implement that vision. 9 �JL: How to keep it going. SA: How to keep it going. That seems to be somewhat my talent. Because, to continue along that line, I came here, and I got involved with RESPOND. That went through a big -- we had to figure out how to get past the housewives of Somerville being on the board and get some professional people in and all that kind of stuff. So I came along at that time, became the president, [and] we figured out how to do that. And by the time I left, we had fund development people. We had lawyers. We had professors. And we still had the core group of Somerville. And then, so when I left RESPOND, I [00:26:00] came to Newton, because I had met Linda. And The Second Step started up, which was a -- it’s not a shelter. It is a second step out of the shelter. It’s long-term housing. A woman and her family can move there, they get goals, and the idea being that when they leave, they are self-sufficient in six months to a year. Which, you know, that’s... And then we continue to support them. And there are people living all over Newton right now who wouldn’t have been in Newton, their kids wouldn’t have been in Newton schools if it wasn’t for The Second Step, so that’s the big one. And we have a Newton cop who’s graduated from The Second Step. It’s really fun and -- to see this outgrowth. But anyways, I -- the founders -- I came along, and I was -- they had just started it. I knew one of those women that had started it. And they’d been working for like six years, the founders. [00:27:00] But they opened it up. I was at the opening, they asked me to be on the board. So, I ended up being the first expanded -- on the first expanded board. And then, of course, the founder being somebody who wanted to keep control, didn’t want to expand it anymore. And then it was like this tension, and she left. And so, I became the second president, as I did in PCADV, that actually, then, we started getting bigger, and we bought a second house. So, and like I said, my background is community development. So it’s just my interest and talent. So that part -- so, there’s two professions going on. One is my volunteering profession, which I just talked about, and the second is, I came to Tufts, graduated, [and] went to the Boston Housing Authority. And I wanted to work in real estate [00:28:00] because I knew that’s where the money was. And I was getting older, and I was going to -- I 10 �didn’t want to be a social worker anymore. I wanted the real money. But I still wanted to work for a good organization. So, Boston Housing, I wanted to be a capital planner, but they saw my resume, and I went and did an internship. And they said, “I want you in the community services, to do this survey about what’s going on in the 30 elderly developments.” So, I did that, and then they hired me to implement the recommendations. And I was like, “I’ll do that if, eventually, I can get over to the planning department.” So, I did that for like two years. I started this consortium of health and social services there, that pulled in all the Boston home care agencies and some of the medical schools. We had a nice -- I don’t know how long it lasted -- but we had a nice thing going on there. We got some money, and we got service people in there. This is way before there were services in elderly housing. [00:29:00] [Around] ‘83, ‘84. But then I went over to the planning department. And I was working there, and I was quite happy working there, and then they closed the planning department because there was a fight between construction and planning, and Doris Bunte, the director of the BHA, landed on the side of the construction department. And she decided the only way to end this argument, which was construction’s ripping us off, is to actually close the planning department. So, we were all out on the street, every single one of us. LJ: Good way for change. (laughs) SA: Yeah. So then, I went over and talked to Eleanor White, who I had been working with on a project through the BHA. And she was the assistant director over at Mass Housing Finance Agency. So, I went over to Mass Housing Finance Agency, and I was there for 12 years. And a good job, really good job, and I enjoyed it. You had a portfolio of loans [00:30:00] and basically you make sure all the strings are attached to those things. Then, along came another opportunity, when I was like 55. They reconstructed the administration of Jewish Community Housing for the Elderly to include a Vice President of Operations. And so, I was friends with the woman who was the president of Jewish Community Housing, Ellen Feingold. And, she called me up, and she said, “Do you know anybody who’s interested in this job?” And I was like, “Yeah.” (laughter) 11 �LJ: Like, “Me!” (laughs) SA: Yeah, really. So, I went over there. And for 10 years, I was at Jewish Community Housing, overseeing their operations. LJ: Is that the same as Jewish Rehab? SA: No, that’s -- Hebrew SeniorLife owns Jewish Rehab, HSL, they call it. And Jewish Community Housing for the Elderly had three developments in [00:31:00] Brighton in one campus. We had over 700 units there. Golda Meir House by Woodland T in Newton, and Coleman House on the JCC campus. So, during my tenure, those are the developments that I oversaw. There were managers in these two that I supervised, but I was the manager for the campus here. And that pretty much covered the base. And then while I was there, and just before I left, they opened Shillman House in Framingham, which I didn’t really have that much to do with, except to get the budget going and stuff. So that was my career. LJ: It sounds wonderful. SA: When I went to Tufts, I was in urban and environmental policy. LJ: You certainly have been busy. (laughs) SA: Yeah. Well, I was more busy before I retired. And now, I don’t know, I don’t volunteer or do anything at this point. Well, I shouldn’t say that, but I don’t really volunteer officially for anything, you know. LJ: Could you expand a little bit on how you met [00:32:00] Linda? SB: Could you talk up just a little bit, if you can. LJ: Excuse me. Would you expand a little bit on how you met Linda? SA: Oh, yes. So, that’s -- Heather introduced me to DOB. And we created a good crowd. Sometimes, it would just, I think, in those moments, just kind of click. And in that, say, ‘85, ‘86, Janet and Nicky came in from out of town. I came in from out of town. Joan was new to DOB. You know, there were just a bunch of people that just kind of showed up the same fall. And we just were like-minded people. And there was about, I don’t know, maybe eight of us or so, 10, that 12 �just clicked. We just started doing things together, you know? And it was -- [00:33:00] and that fit me, as you can tell from my past experiences, I really had not had a serious relationship. I just like being with people. And so, it fit me perfectly. I was very happy. And through that, we saw these pictures of going to P-Town together and going up to New Hampshire together. But, I was looking, you know? So, I didn’t really find anybody in particular, but it’s funny. At one of the Thanksgiving meals, I don’t know why... but Linda was a librarian by training. And she had a bunch of books out, I guess she was selling books or something like that. But she was standing up while everybody was sitting down. And she was a new face, too. So, I was just looking at her, and I was very interested. I was just interested. [00:34:00] And I remember, I was sitting over here, and she was over there. And then Steph Marcos, during the transition, wanted to run for vice president of DOB, or something like that. So, I went to vote for her. And I was very tired that day. And, I remember I was sitting on the couch, kind of like this, just waiting to go like this,(raised my hand) because I was just exhausted. And, they were saying that they needed somebody to take care of the library at DOB. And I heard this voice say, “Well, I’m a librarian. I could do that.” Or something innocuous. LJ: She was saying? SA: Pardon me? LJ: She was saying it, Linda was saying. SA: Yeah, and it was Linda. And I was like, “Who is that?” I think partly because I recognized a nonBoston accent. (laughter) But she had a good, strong voice. [00:35:00] It was just clear as a bell to me. And I raised my head up and looked around, and I couldn’t figure out who said it, because -LJ: “Where was that coming from?” SA: Yeah. Where was it coming from? So then, I found out where it was coming from, and then we did this strange maneuver, because then Joan gave a financial talk, and I went to it, and she went to it. And I went up to her afterwards, and I said -- and I knew who she was by that time, been 13 �watching her and everything. And she was talking to Mimi, I think. So I went up to her, and I started talking. I said hi to Mimi and everything. And then I just casually turned to Linda. and I said, “I don’t think we’ve met.” And, you know, we introduced ourselves. And then I just tried to casually say at the end of the break, “Do you want to go for coffee afterwards?” And she said, “Well, no, I can’t.” And I was like, “Okay, fine.” Well, what I found out was she had already turned somebody else down that she didn’t want to go to coffee with, and if we went to coffee, [00:36:00] we would end up at the same place that this woman was, so she couldn’t go with me. But she was interested in me, too. So then, I don’t know what else happened, but [Tracy Powers] got involved in it. Tracy was a friend of Linda’s and a friend of mine. I went out to dinner with her, and I told her I was interested in Linda. And so, she became my advocate and said to -- I know, isn’t this something? (laughter) I mean, this is me never really having a, you know... And so -LJ: And she was good at managing it. (laughter) SA: Right. So, Tracy sang my praises to Linda and kind of told her that -- and so somehow, we both knew that we were going to be at the DOB birthday party at Somewhere Else [a bar in Boston’s financial district]. So, it was really interesting. Because when I walked in and walked up to her, it was as if we had planned to meet, but we didn’t really talk. [00:37:00] It was like we had talked through people, not really... It was pretty funny. But it worked. It worked. LJ: It’s wonderful that it did. SA: And that was February of -- or January maybe. It was the dance, the end of January. LJ: Yeah, usually it would have been. SA: Right. The end of January of 1988, I think, ‘88, yeah. So that’s how we met. And we started to compare things. And we were on the softball field at the same time, and we didn’t pay attention to each other. We were at a, remember the brunch place in Fenway, right? It was called The Empire or some weird thing like that. LJ: Yeah. 14 �SA: It was a brunch place, and DOB periodically would say, “Okay, we’re all going to meet for brunch [00:38:00] at the brunch place,” whatever this place was. It was huge, and it was a buffet. LJ: I know, I remember it. SA: Yeah, it was a buffet. And so it was easy to do. So, I think we were sitting like four -- you know, when we talked about it, we were sitting like four seats away from each other, but we didn’t -LJ: But you didn’t know. SA: Didn’t know. I was onto somebody else at that point in time, I think. And so it was funny, because we’d been around DOB together, doing the same thing, but it wasn’t until then that we actually made the connection. And that was lovely. And she had plenty of friends from DOB, because she was in a different group of people. She was with Barbara and Carol Tye and... LJ: Mary Mumford? SA: Mary Mumford and that crowd. And then I was with Janet and Nicky. So, we both expanded our [00:39:00] DOB friendships exponentially. LJ: There were, at one point, 150 members. So, you had a chance to expand. SA: Mm-hmm. And I’m sure it was right around that time, because we’d have a dance, and we’d easily get 100 women there, if not more. Yeah. So that was lovely. I’m very grateful. We both were very grateful to DOB for giving us -- she had come from a relationship, I think, of about seven years, that had ended. And she was trying to get back in the game, you know, and trying to get out there and meet people again. And so, she had used DOB that way. And I talked to her ex. She and her ex became very close, because they were almost like sisters then, when they split up. After a period of hating each other, they got together. [00:40:00] So, in fact, I talked to her yesterday, Louise Forrest. I don’t know if you know her or not. She was never part of DOB. LJ: What was her name? SA: Her name was Louise Forrest. She’s an Episcopal priest. But that’s how I met Linda there. And I had just bought a house. And she had a house in Newton. Luckily mine, I had roommates, so I could easily just let it rent out to my roommates. But I didn’t move for a year, because I didn’t -15 �you know, I wasn’t like, totally U-Haul, you know? [The joke going around the lesbian community at the time was that two women would meet, fall madly in love, and on the second date, one would rent a U-Haul and move in with the other woman.SB] But I probably lived there most of the time between ‘88 and January or February of ‘89, but I told her I wouldn’t move in for a year. So, not moving in for a year meant that I didn’t bring my furniture and my cat. But basically, I was there. (laughter) LJ: You didn’t belong to the crowd that [00:41:00] immediately cuddled up. SA: Right. I was a little too old for that, I think. LJ: And said, “Get me a truck.” (laughs) SA: Yeah, right, the U-Haul lesbian. I was not the U-Haul lesbian, but I was pretty much living there. And I went home, and I told my mom. And I wouldn’t tell her until I had a relationship to talk about. That was one of the thoughts that I had about, when do I come out to my mother? And I had a very close gay friend in Erie, by the way, Rick Jenks. And we went everywhere and did a lot of things together. And she kept saying, “Well, what’s...” I said, “Mom, I’m just not the marrying kind.” That’s all I would ever say. And then Rick moved to New York City, and then I moved to Boston, so that broke that up anyways. But when I did find Linda, I wanted to tell her. I wanted to tell my mother about Linda. So I went home, and I told my mother about Linda. And she said, like she always did, “Whatever you think. [00:42:00] Whatever makes you happy.” And that’s all she ever wanted for me, was for me to be happy. And then the next line, she said, “Don’t tell your father.” (laughter) LJ: Or your aunt. SA: Or my aunt, yeah, right. So, I never actually did. But they soon after that moved to Florida in the wintertime. And they came to visit me. So, without speaking -LJ: They knew. SA: I mean, my dad’s not blind, right? LJ: They knew. 16 �SA: He knew. And then we’d go golfing, my dad and I, and I said, the way that I really delivered it even more was, he’d complain about mom, and I’d complain about Linda. (laughs) LJ: A couple of guys on the course. SA: Yeah. And even now, I have [00:43:00] Deb. And he knows Deb, and Deb’s -- we still have cottages on the beach. And Deb comes. SB: Who’s Deb? SA: Oh, Deborah is my current -- Linda died in 2008. I’m sorry. So, Linda died in 2008. And there was no DOB, but there were meet-ups, so that helped me get back out. But now I have Deborah Maine I met in 2012 or ‘13. Thirteen, I think. And, it’d be like January of 2013. LJ: Do I know her, Deborah? SA: You probably met her at OLOC, but it’s not like -- she lived in New York until 2008. LJ: I see. SA: She’s actually emerita from Columbia University. She’s in international public health. And she [00:44:00] came, she retired emerita from Columbia University, came to Boston University as a step down from running $50 million international health programs, to just teaching and doing some small consulting. And they wanted to come to Boston, she and her partner, because they wanted to get married. And at that time, New York wasn’t allowing it. But they felt they needed to get out of New York. So that’s what they did, 2008, I think, they came. It doesn’t make sense, but something like that. I’m getting it all confused. But it had to. So anyways, because her partner died in 2009. Yes, it does make sense, okay. So, she came, and her partner died in 2009. So, we met in 2012. And you know, I’m still in the same house, [00:45:00] the McCauley house. Now, the one thing you know is that Barbara McCauley is in the mix here. LJ: Yes. SA: So, Linda McCauley has a sister who has cerebral palsy and developmental disabilities, who actually, when I met her though, was working at -- she could walk, and she was working at Children’s Hospital. She actually worked at Children’s Hospital for the better part of 20 years. 17 �But she is now in a group home because she’s in a wheelchair. She’s 67 with cerebral palsy. It really takes a beating, your body does. But, I am still very much part of Barbara’s life. Barbara was always -- we were always a family. We were always Linda, Barbara, and me. And we travelled together. Linda and I bought a timeshare, a quarter-share in Provincetown. [00:46:00] And we would go there once a month on a weekend, mostly come on Friday, leave on Monday morning. And so, Barbara shared our life. But the other -- the flipside of that is that house was the McCauley house. Linda and Barbara’s parents bought that house in... SB: Don’t lose that thought. LJ: Hold it. This is a wonderful interview. SA: Well, thank you. I’m so glad that you asked. It was just great, looking at those pictures. LJ: Oh, yes. SA: And so yeah, the McCauleys bought that house in the ‘60s so that Barbara could go to Newton schools. Because she was very mildly -- is very mildly developmentally disabled. And her dad was a lieutenant, major, or something I forget what you [00:47:00] call it. But anyways -lieutenant colonel in the Air Force. So, he went to work at Bedford. And then he retired and became a civilian and worked at Bedford. He was an architect. She missed that one. (laughs) So I have been living in that house for 31 years, if I count 1988 almost always living there, except I didn’t have my cat. I’ve been living there for 31 years. I thought about that. I never lived anywhere for 31 years, (laughter) but I’ve been living there. LJ: I’m not trying to trump you, but we lived in our house 50 years. SA: Wow. LJ: We didn’t want to leave. SA: I loved those -- I can’t tell you how much those Christmas parties meant to me, because I -- being away from home, being away from family, and having somebody to celebrate Christmas with, to sing those carols, that was [00:48:00] a fun thing. We sang carols, and we’d always do, all of us ex-Catholics, we’d do Adeste Fideles. (laughter) And but we just had a lovely time there. 18 �LJ: Well, we always had a wonderful time with all the people in the house. I mean, the house was just -the thing that I think the most of is the conversation, the people talking and talking and talking. And having a wonderful time and relating and knowing they were with all lesbians. They could say anything they wanted. No one was ever going to worry about anyone knocking on the door. (laughs) And sitting, you’d go to the top floor, and people would be sitting all around on the floor, on the couches, etc., just... Enjoying themselves. [00:49:00] Being who they were created to be. And there they are. SA: And I’ll tell you, that’s important, because one of the very first parties I went to, Heather invited me to a party in Charlestown, and we were at a brownstone in Charlestown. And we were having a good time. And there was a knock at the door, and there was a bunch of thugs that came in and called us a bunch of bad names. They were downstairs, and they heard the -- they were complaining about the noise, but they were also, you know, after us, yeah. LJ: Being prejudiced. SA: Denigrating us because we were lesbians and all that kind of stuff. So that was, to me, new to this big city, that was pretty terrifying. LJ: It’s scary. SA: It was. It was terrifying. So, to be in a safe space like that, and to have such a wonderful house to party in and such wonderful people to be around, it was great. [00:50:00] LJ: It was wonderful for us, too. As I’ve always said, you always even get more than you give. You do. SA: Yeah, yeah. That’s great. LJ: Let’s see. You had a thought. Are we ready to record it? SA: Oh, yeah. We’re recording it. SB: Oh, we’re recording everything. SA: Yeah. It started again. LJ: Oh, good. SB: Don’t worry. 19 �LJ: I don’t want to intrude on your interview. Let’s see now. What were we talking about? SB: Well, you were just explaining about how -- Sheila was -SA: Oh, you asked me how I met Linda. SB: Linda, and then you talked about Deb. And how did you meet Deb? Just to -SA: In a meet-up. SB: In a meet-up. SA: Yeah. Well, first we became acquainted in October of 2012, at a games night, Ova4D games night. And I really liked her, so I waited until [00:51:00] she sat down. And then I went, and I sat down next to her. And we had a nice evening together. But she was still working. She was on her way to India. She did a lot of consulting internationally, so she was always in and out of town. She didn’t tell me, but she was moving. And she was going to have cataract surgery in the next month. So, she put me off, in terms of any kind of thing. She just had too much going on. I was like, “Okay, fine.” So then, I was at the Mass. Breast Cancer Coalition dance with a friend. And I saw her, and I thought, “Who is that? Where do I know that woman from?” She’s very striking, because she has white hair, like you do. And it’s in a pageboy. I can show you a picture of her. And she -- I was like, “Where do I know that woman from?” And I was, “Oh, yeah, the games night.” So, I went over and introduced myself. [00:52:00] And then we started dancing. And then, by the time she left, we had made plans to go to the ICA for lunch, to meet at the ICA for lunch and see the ICA. And one thing led to the other. So, we were going on our test trip by December. (laughter) We went to -- I was just looking at the pictures the other day of that. We went on our test trip. LJ: Oh, yes. SA: Yeah, Costa Rica. We went down to Costa Rica together. SB: Oh, the test trip. LJ: What a wonderful place to have it. 20 �SA: Yeah, really. And so somebody said, “Oh, yeah, the compatibility tour.” So yeah, and so we’ve been together ever since. We just came back from St. John. We travel a lot now, because she retired shortly after. She moved in in December 2015. She retired, I think, that September, [00:53:00] or that was the last of it. And so, we’ve been traveling a lot. We went, in 2017, when we turned 70, we went to Patagonia, Alaska, the Canadian Rockies, and Morocco, all in one year. LJ: Wonderful. That’s great, wow. SA: Yeah, that was a great year, wasn’t it? So, we went to St. John three weeks ago. And Deb is going back to Morocco with her niece next week, and I’m going down to Florida, to see Jenny, among other people. But she loves Morocco, and she’s been there many times. So she wants to take her niece to see it. Yeah, so life is good. LJ: Wonderful. SB: Could we talk a little bit more about DOB, Lois? LJ: Yes, I was thinking that. Could you tell [00:54:00] a little bit more about how active you were in DOB? What, just any feelings you have about it. SA: Well, Heather -- what happened was Heather and Katy Marakason and Steph -LJ: Marcos? SA: Marcos and I became closer. We did some things together. Mostly Steph and Heather and I. And I went to the groups, and I participated in the things that DOB had. And what I can remember is the Thanksgiving, we always had a big Thanksgiving thing. And I went to the groups. But, you know, with this little group of about 10 of us, we made our own plans then. [00:55:00] But we were DOB people. We weren’t separate from DOB. We were part of the DOB. And then there were other DOBers that would come, Rene Slack. But we had the DOB meeting, and we would go to, on Memorial Day weekend, we would go to whatever B&B that we decided to meet at. We filled it up. And then, in the wintertime, we went up to Bethlehem to go skiing, cross-country skiing, a bunch of us. And it was this DOB crowd, I would say. And then, when I met Linda and 21 �met Barbara and Carol and those people, they did games. They liked games, so we used to do games. LJ: Trivial Pursuit? SA: Yeah, right. And [00:56:00] so it was, you know, you went to DOB, and you -- I went to many of those groups just regularly. And then we would go out afterwards for coffee. But DOB was a spirit as much as a place. And we were all DOBers, and we identified as that, Jenny and Steph. It was like, “Who’s who.” So it was Nicky and Janet. Then it was Janet and Kathy. And then it was Nicky and Arlene. And then it was Nicky and -- you know. But we all stayed in the same little -- we never left the DOB parameters or the boundaries. We were all together, all the time. It was really fun. And yeah. And I don’t -LJ: You wouldn’t -- if I may interrupt -- you [00:57:00] wouldn’t probably have met if it had not been for DOB. SA: I would not have met Linda if it wasn’t for DOB. I don’t think I would have met any of those people if it wasn’t -- and that’s what, I think, was the magic of DOB, is that it was, first of all, a safe place when -- a lot of people came because they could not be out at work. I can’t remember if I was out at work by that time. But you couldn’t be out at work. You couldn’t be out to your family. You couldn’t be out. You had so many issues that, when you came to DOB, like you said, to even your house, you just left all of those outside. And Maureen... I’m so sorry, I can’t remember her last name, but it’s still coming up. But Heather’s partner, Maureen Maguire, had three kids. And [00:58:00] so she went to DOB because there was a mothers with children group. And she met Jan Shapiro there, who then became part of my circle in another way, because Jan Shapiro and her partner, Diane Shapiro -– we used to call them the Shapiro sisters –- had two boys. And then Heather and Maureen, they had kids. And Linda and I didn’t have kids. But we created what we called the Newton Social Club, because Jan and Dianne really couldn’t afford to have a babysitter and go out to dinner. So we would just trade around every month and have dinner at one of the houses. Mostly at their house, because then, they didn’t have to get a 22 �babysitter, you know? Because the kids were little. And so, there were so many connections to DOB. [00:59:00] Like, I’m friends of Jan Shapiro’s because Maureen went to DOB, met Jan, and brought her into my life. I never went to the mothers with children event. So it was just so much. And I did get involved. I did go to that meeting, and there were a couple of other meetings. But I actually wasn’t concentrating on the organization. There were. . . you and Sheri did a fine job, as far as I was concerned. And Barbara [Webber], Barbara was coordinating a lot of those. LJ: Oh, Barbara was, yes. SA: Yeah. And so, I think I entered into the spirit of it. I identified with it. And I am friends, to this day, with people that I met from DOB. But I didn’t, as I did with some of the other nonprofits I talked about, I didn’t take an interest in getting [01:00:00] into the organization of it. I just enjoyed it for what it was, which was fine. LJ: Well, that was one of its major reasons for being, was to bring women together. SA: Yes. Yeah. LJ: Yeah. Because where else could you meet lesbians? (laughs) In those days. Bars. SA: Right. I wouldn’t have met any of those people, not one. There wasn’t one that I had another association with, outside of DOB. LJ: Yeah. You would never. SA: There was nothing. And they’re so important to me, some of them. Joan and I are still friends. Joan is my financial advisor. LJ: Even to this day, yeah. SA: Yeah, to this day. Jenny, you know, I’m going to meet Jenny next week. Heather is still my best friend, one of my best friends. We’ve stayed close all through everything. SB: Can I just say, would it be safe to say that there have [01:01:00] been a lot of interviews we’ve done where people have said that they went to DOB because they were in the closet, and they had to get out, and that was the... Would it be safe to say that, you just said that you were out at work, 23 �and you were a little bit more out. You weren’t going to DOB to come out so much, as to meet other lesbians, let’s say. SA: Right. Because I was at Tufts, first of all. I did not, the first year, come out, because I didn’t want to lead with that, let’s say. You know? I wanted people to get to know me. But then Heather came along, and you know, when you have an ally... So somewhere along the line, I think by the second year at Tufts, I had come out to my classmates. They knew who I was. [01:02:00] But then when I went to work at the BHA -- oh, one of the interesting things about the BHA experience was, my roommate got a job at the BHA, separate from me getting an internship in the community services department. So, it just happened that way. And I didn’t lead her to the BHA. She didn’t lead me. We just both ended up in the community services department. And when I got to Tufts, it was interesting. When I got to Tufts, I didn’t know how to go about getting a place to stay and how much I should reveal and not reveal, and all that crazy stuff. So, I didn’t come out to my roommate at first, which luckily, she was fine when I did. And she was a wonderful woman. Nancy Foster was her name, and she was straight. But she was single. She’s about five, six years older than I was. And so [01:03:00] when I did tell her, finally, probably months and months later, I don’t remember, it was just fine, but it was a hard thing to -- that was one of my first coming outs, to her. But when I got to the BHA -- oh, and then -- so Nancy left, and I had to get a roommate. And so, this woman called Deb Cassidy came along. So, she’s just about ready to sign, and I said, I really should tell you that I’m a lesbian. She was like, “Okay, fine.” (laughter) So that really helped a lot, too. And then she went over to the BHA. So it was hard to be in when your roommate, who doesn’t care whether you’re a lesbian or not, is in the community services department, and you’re entering into it. So, everybody knew who I was. I just came in, out. I came in out at the BHA. So, that was easy. SB: That’s a good way to put it. LJ: Yeah, in and out. 24 �SA: Yeah. And again, it’s the [01:04:00] mid-‘80s by this time. People who have been in Boston for years were still dealing with their history of -- if they were teachers or, you know. But I was kind of fresh to all of this, so I could make a new start. Which is why I came, because it was killing me to stay in Erie in the closet. It just was killing. I mean literally killing me. I was drinking too much, and I know that’s why I was drinking, because I didn’t know how to resolve this problem. And so, when I came here, I was resolved to come out. But I did it in a very... I didn’t come out (imitates an explosion sound), you know? SB: Incremental. SA: Right. I just did it in a balanced way, I think. But I was not in the closet long, not long at all. LJ: Thank God. (laughs) SA: Really. It was so lib-- I mean, that’s why I came here. I wanted to be liberated. I wasn’t going to be in that... It wasn’t good. It just wasn’t good. [01:05:00] And when I was in Erie, I had a roommate early on, mid -- oh, I got the -- ‘78, say ‘78. My best friend, to this day, in Erie, Mary Kwiatkowski -- she came out. We were roommates. And she was a professional running something, I forget what, in Erie. And I was. And I had this vision of us being like a Boston marriage. That was my first plan A, out of -- that was my plan B, I should say. But then she took up with a woman. And I was like, “You’re just asking -- don’t do this. Don’t do this. You’re going to ruin your career. It’s just going to be a pile of crap. Don’t do it.” I was really so against her coming [01:06:00] out, it was amazing. But I was fighting with myself at the same time, too. LJ: That was one step. SB: Yeah. SA: Yeah. And here I was. I was the head of the domestic violence shelter, you know, when everybody was gay-baiting the women’s movement and everything. It was not a -- I mean, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I thought that was the best job I had in my life. But that crushing thing against me being a lesbian. And so, I had to get out of it. I just couldn’t stay. I could not stay. And Mary won’t let me forget it to this day, (laughs) that I gave her such shit for coming out. 25 �LJ: Don’t we all have had that period in our lives. SA: Oh yeah, I think so. I think so. LAURA CATANZARO: [01:07:00] Might I ask, really putting together, let’s say, career and coming out, was there an element in your work with domestic violence, a feminist element that gave you a little bit of a foundation, potentially? Because lesbianism in the ‘70s and ‘80s came along with some feminism. SA: Oh yeah, absolutely it did. LC: Was there a connection for you? SA: Oh, it was. Actually, I was just... saw that ERA thing the other night, too, and I was reminiscing a bit. But in the ‘70s, I think I was actually -- I can’t remember -- I had to, because I knew Mary, and I met Mary through Hospitality House. But we were involved with the ERA. But I went down to the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Domestic Violence early meetings. And to me, it was like Oz. Because the founder of the Pennsylvania Coalition, the main drive, [01:08:00] was Barbara Hart, a legal services attorney, in Reading, Pennsylvania, who also was the drive for the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence. She is just a person to be reckoned with, really. And she was a lesbian, out lesbian. And then there was, like, you know, a professor. And then there was -- in other words, among this 16 or so women -LJ: Accomplished people. SA: They were accomplished, and there was like three lesbians there. And that was like, to me, it was an eye-opener. Because my friend, who was a lesbian, they were all radical, radical people. I mean, they had brains. But I also, because I was in the shelter, I met lesbians who were mentally ill, who were broken from whatever their experiences were. But they would come out, too, because they have nothing to lose, right? [01:09:00] But if you’re a Communist who’s lived up in Toronto, and then come back home to Erie for some strange reason, and you’re a lesbian, you’re out. But you don’t look like anybody in Erie anymore. And that was one of them. And then Julie, actually, the woman that I lived with for the first six months at the shelter, she was part of 26 �the PAX Center. She was a lesbian, but she was a celibate lesbian because she was an associate to the Benedictines. So, you know, I couldn’t -- I didn’t find the people that I was out there, in Erie. And this is, this sounds really stupid, but it’s the ’70s. But then, the ERA, there was one woman and her partner that were kind of leaders in the ERA area. Mary, my roommate Mary, became the -- well, then, things were evolving. So, the late-‘70s, things started to evolve. And by [01:10:00] 1980, I was involved in my first relationship, really, which didn’t last very long, but... I remember it to this day. (laughter) LJ: Yeah. SA: And it was through Pennsylvania Coalition. It was somebody who was part of the Pennsylvania Coalition. So I was well on my way out by the time I got to Boston. But that’s it. It drove -- the more I became associated with people that I wanted to aspire to be, free and open, the more I wanted to be free and open, and the less I could live in Erie. I had to go do something else. I just couldn’t -- I couldn’t stay. And I did feel like an immigrant. Not that I want to put it on the same level as the poor people that are leaving Honduras or anything, but when you’re forced out, you know... It was kind of a forced-out thing. Because I loved my [01:11:00] life in Erie. But it just wasn’t fitting. I mean, I loved being close to my family. I loved having cottages on the beach. I loved my job. But so much of that just was not a fit for me anymore. And I just had to realize that and go. LJ: It was a beginning of your life, to go. Well, I am overwhelmed with all this wonderful feeling and information. SA: Nobody has ever asked me a lot of this stuff before, so it’s really great to articulate it. LJ: It’s really -- you have articulated it so well, and it resonates with so many experiences I have heard, and I had myself. Is there anything else that you would like to add about any aspect of your interview? SA: Let me think. I think it made my social life so wonderful [01:12:00] when I first got here. And when I turned 40, which was 1987, just before I met Linda, we were in the heart of this group 27 �together. The ‘86, ‘87, it was May of 1987. And my crowd, you know, Janet and Nicky and that 10 I’m talking about or so, they said, “Well, what do you want to do for your birthday? Your 40th birthday?” And I said, “I want to have a picnic on the Esplanade.” I don’t know, you know? So, they did it. They pulled it together. And we went down. We didn’t think about bathrooms, so (laughter) we had people going behind bushes, right? LJ: It was (inaudible) summer. SA: Right? But I remember, I gave a toast. And I said, “In the middle of the city that I love, in the middle of the friends that I love, in the middle of the life that I love, here’s to [01:13:00] y’all.” And that’s just the way I felt. It put me -- DOB put me in such a wonderful place. I came here looking for support. I came to Boston looking for affirmation and support and friendship. And I don’t think I would have gotten it the same way if I hadn’t gone to DOB. I probably would have gotten it, but it would have been a much harder thing to do. And it would have been a much smaller support group. And it just has made my life -- and then it brought me Linda. The crowning achievement was finding somebody that you love, to be a partner with. And that occurred through DOB. So, I’m forever grateful to you, Lois, and all the people that put together DOB and kept it going. And that it was there for me. [01:14:00] It was lovely. LJ: That’s a wonderful interview. Do you folks have any other questions? SB: No. It is a wonderful interview. SA: Thank you. SB: Yeah, it really is. It’s a testimony to the work that you’ve done in your life, and a testimony to you. LJ: Indeed, it is a testimony to you. SA: Well, at 71, you kind of look back. And you think, “I wasn’t a bad kid. And boy, did I have a tough time.” You get a little perspective on your life after a while, instead of just walking through it. But I’m so glad I chose to come to Boston. And I’m so glad I met Heather, who led me to DOB. And it was great. 28 �LJ: It’s just amazing how one word, one sentence, one invitation, one kind deed that [01:15:00] drops into the well of life. And you never know how far the ripples go. SA: That is so true. That is so true. Living in a domestic violence shelter for two years, (laughs) I’ll tell you. It wasn’t even a domestic violence shelter. It was just a women’s shelter, so we saw everything. But yeah, yeah. You never know. LJ: This was amazing. Thank you for all the work you’ve done. SA: Thank you. I’m honored. I was really quite honored that you thought to call me. Because I didn’t feel like I was an outlier. I certainly thought that I was part of it. But I think of probably people that you are interviewing, Barbara and Carol and people that were organizing and holding it together and everything. LJ: Yes. Well, this concludes this interview. SB: Yeah. And it’s our honor to interview you. SA: Thank you. LJ: It is. END OF SHEILA ARDERY FILE 29 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyer, Sarah; Catanzaro, Laura; Johnson, Lois Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Ardery, Sheila Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sheila Ardery, 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-15 Description An account of the resource Interview with Sheila Ardery for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson, Sarah Boyer, and Laura Catanzaro. Subject The topic of the resource Ardery, Sheila; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brain Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Antoni Precious Porter Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ASuXFq9NiAo?si=sIhtO3TNqWutfLzt" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5_xaNMD2Sy4?si=7LeC0lrYuRGfY-ko" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tzXMBRbOuCI?si=EHQVaanO-vVNjiZr" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/e_Xci0P0Xwo?si=-yxlqlA6KCohK6MJ" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gKB3wH5E9AI?si=PbiT45b6WQItWvOv" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Wo_WgM7oIs8?si=GDQQ_JewfUhjLIsj" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3yUkWx2EHZk?si=XnCm2BfWaa0bPRlt" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Antoni Precious Porter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Porter, Antoni Precious Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THO-OH-Porter Description An account of the resource Brian Halligan interviewed Antoni Precious Porter about his work as a DJ in Boston. Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brain Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Wendy Hunt Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rtR8dG0aqHI?si=zlLK7ciIW3ToeP65" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EkftC5RlJKM?si=xbe0ck9eKWt7jcTc" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pmYxzNBtOFg?si=Eel4EHZ6nHozdHXS" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pkAzlFYy90c?si=8THunvmkefD3LGZy" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yvlJI4nLuR0?si=bxLaz1dsm-1wrY53" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wJvtF_XFP6k?si=MXWRj8SFvT2nrFzQ" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A8D8I930k8k?si=Bl1A6c85ekj1914S" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wendy Hunt Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-16 Description An account of the resource On November 16, 2015, Brian Halligan interviewed Wendy Hunt about her work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Hunt, Wendy Boston (Music) DJ (Music) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Hunt-2015-11-16 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Brian Halligan Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/amColxp3wZ8?si=QvP0FpQIknUdmXqW" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1PlcbA7Y5-Y?si=y2RKea3FIbB4IKsw" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BitznkVHLZ0?si=mSJhym5deyZXrgGj" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LejCNSs5C7U?si=tf2Kzajictcwqac5" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Brian Halligan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-30 Description An account of the resource On March 30, 2014, Brain Halligan was interviewed about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Halligan, Brian; Music; DJ; Boston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Halligan-2013-03-30 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brian Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Paul Egan Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oYTlN0Vpguk?si=6uChGQ3_36VJ6yRT" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jCkZE1WqBa4?si=Q9ZiAStMau5Y975O" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jxdN_rVMa-U?si=KA-2TYlmIzSUtSgq" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Zqh2GH__k4A?si=lLFg6b5DjAcHn0qI" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/B3sc9fG87w4?si=MaG_pdC2ltLycvaz" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DRSB2GCdSuo?si=M007YjGJFrd3iKiI" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mzidWDo7hyI?si=aVNYd21IX4SspCUB" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Egan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-08-21 Description An account of the resource On August 21, 2014, Brian Halligan interviewed Paul Egan about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource "Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. " Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Egan-2014-08-21 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brian Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Brent Covington Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jGBSHXzyH-4?si=5BVEpyBMfj5mEA5e" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-PxyOHyIOpU?si=cFGhqaVyxpuP0h5x" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Za5EXYm-css?si=nqJ1RGD9VyMj7yh-" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/O2rne3Xa9YA?si=8Yv5dYfJ6JtqKiXp" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Brent Covington Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-01 Description An account of the resource On March 1, 2014, Brian Halligan interviewed Brent Covington about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Covington, Brent; Music, Boston, DJ Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource videe/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Covington-2014-03-01 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brian Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Conrad Cardenas Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TJTU2I99hdE?si=DsUvImhqdO-yHoRq" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-lIU4e-IiIw?si=BDC9TA5iqbKLxO_w" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QGDA5fZdJU8?si=hN4u2WKrUjqyry5m" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wUvB8nKy1u0?si=Bs7XyoAqDCBif_Er" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Hc0skwednB0?si=lWhELkElBDkw4Mjz" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VV24Fv4YIeU?si=HztoSxkkKSXXNUR1" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Conrad Cardenas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-09 Description An account of the resource On March 9, 2014, Brian Halligan interviewed Conrad Cardenas about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Cardenas, Conrad; Boston; Music; DJ Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Cardenas-2014-03-09 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brain Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bobby Busnach Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FjOR70j2UwA?si=J7TfjiEQyGo7P_HJ" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/08XjjglRibg?si=GVyBlFbR_-LeDKhi" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MpcY6WqE8BE?si=i4RWLBI2c8GQEktr" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bobby Busnach Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-07-16 Description An account of the resource On July 16, 2013, Brian Halligan interviewed Bobby Busnach about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Busnach, Bobby; Music; Boston; DJ Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Busnach-2013-07-16 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brain Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Steven Burke Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lfO1q9qSH7o?si=Sq8Ev8lw8ZiMqAJK" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zbqDLH--GNM?si=wgsRK4HXAHLXt5Vc" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5KMMnjLGhOA?si=hnc7oIs7v-oY_iOD" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oYwaELM93UQ?si=k-74q7pvo5oLhjmw" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steven Burke Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09-13 Description An account of the resource On September 14 2013, Brian Halligan interviewed Steven Burke about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Burke, Steven; Boston; Music; DJ Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Burke-2014-09-13 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brian Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Val Bernasconi Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/btoCGNBnZSg?si=ZdpNY1OUdEkn70lA" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tb8SmLTNeNQ?si=HXu447Zi9nBVj35Y" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jTTTqXJHVd0?si=5QGDtwy41cYXXFq5" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/07b24rv2yI8?si=6rudBzPG3UBa145K" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uOMCU9_XfjY?si=ZZPu8F6lIdr17ovU" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5s_DJwc591U?si=m0VT5fqk6lgqcWq_" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/M2hqZ7avBmw?si=T8XQCdOZSeJMBkXd" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Val Bernasconi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-04-12 Description An account of the resource On April 12, 2014, Brian Halligan interviewed Val Bernasconi about his work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Bernasconi, Val Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on DOCUMENTED is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Bernasconi-2014-04-12 Oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DJ Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-2014 Description An account of the resource A collection of 12 oral histories conducted by Brian Halligan with DJ's in Boston's music scene Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data video/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. None Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brain Halligan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Maryalice Kalaghan Location The location of the interview. Boston, MA URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UY_x4X5cP-A?si=xAmwQ5VmTYaE2so2" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nJlQJY2THJU?si=CpG4eco5RViq4NFm" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9RVXYD29hgM?si=Nyb3t87Wca4Wyjji" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/d2_zLvOsg2g?si=nXwmuCAyBi5Y_URx" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Maryalice Kalaghan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-02-15 Description An account of the resource On February 15, 2014, Brian Halligan interviewed Maryalice Kalaghan about her work as a DJ in Boston. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Subject The topic of the resource Kalaghan, Maryalice Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Digital content made available by The History Project on Omeka is intended for personal research and educational purposes; commercial use or distribution of this content is not permitted without prior permission of the copyright holder. The History Project holds copyright to select content made available in DOCUMENTED. Copyright to other content may be held by authors, artists, or their heirs, or may be in the public domain. Requests to reproduce, distribute, or publish content in The History Project should be sent to info@historyproject.org. Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-Kalaghan-2014-02-15 Oral history https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/084102d98a1cf29884401cb1437bf71a.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=Ntvt3kKcJrCZrzJFgVcSW%7EDCzdQcDOpa77Sdt170mU55cOWwpwQh2c0%7ER5Pj1ms8aei9YCk4wIUxzckm5DgO7ZPJ2cpe9GS5urg4Qx6KH4AconPXLLYUo4dKxxgIQjmul1olbxbTeEf8myFhcTj9IA%7ELTQnFql65RCeV6oto33J9bgWRAmrFCQrNLCplumiu1GjD5jp4Ya%7E7GXTlX3llJOFTaDesLrvr3HmDJ57jTEDesUAocljxK11ihO9l480o2D7X0hdy9Ck5ruLnONQ2Tn%7EWQOQPg0nZUGVteTlvgh4dY%7EUHMBhtaKo3lOGoDZkMg6n3gYzwy3okCpToIuZ%7E6g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c63e80f8320ceca8f2537efb88beaf36 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/1461/archive/files/e43352674564ab94f56ffb6ffa1afba4.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=NUESYhjt6-fjNswe3hovivLjgEG9lLJnFtzbqu76ocCKXv8Kx%7EIUalPrgJWsaOAUgyq6RgaMuNKM1FwNgzlHwFcodinhHPTJXBObWJsNNXcYsPw5Jk9Ril7yjCLKRc3f22kuk1OWwDA6NR8n%7EO7UnytlYY5xKqqD8xr6PQitC6kkL-f0uwx%7EK5NNww8mQCBw4KpE0qTXrs25-1F5NuP7XwmAsZakfNKHjNGskNMPhrWJjyF-xdu8nEImglF5Ug7-LjKrR1Kipg8DfTeiYS2OVm5H8bG3MhxuVcI0tYuKIYkGLjkH8ZEWUoxLgy4r4NQ%7ESjCK-AecWn6SMl7e-MeaFQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 71cdb857edd106362a14754c88212b81 PDF Text Text BOSTON Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project Transcript of: Mary Mumford Interviewers: Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer December 3, 2018 1 �LOIS JOHNSON: Today is December 3, 2018. This is Lois Johnson, and I’m interviewing Mary Mumford for the DOB Project in Boston. Sarah Boyer, another interviewer, is also here and may ask some questions. Okay, Mary, okay. We’re getting there. I’m so glad you’re here today. MARY MUMFORD: Thank you. LJ: As you know, Mary, this is for the DOB Project in Boston. And so, could you, just as a background, tell me a little bit about yourself. [00:01:00] You know, where you lived when you were a child, where you went to school, your interests. You know, all of that basic information. MM: I grew up in Virginia, in the southwestern part of Virginia. In a very small town. My mother was very old Virginia, strict and rigid. I didn’t hear the word “lesbian” until I was 13, and knew right away what it was, and it terrified me. I went away to school right after that, not long after that, to an all girls’ school in Washington, and that changed my whole life. I went to National Cathedral School in Washington and was there for five years. I just loved it. It was a wonderful school, and very good education, and wonderful girls from all over the world. [00:02:00] I met people from China and Thailand -LJ: That was a wonderful experience. MM: All types and kinds of -- you know, my best friends were Jewish, and a whole mixture of people. It just, you know, really opened my eyes to the world. And I never really went back to Virginia after that. I didn’t come out then, although I got crushes on girls and just tried to pretend like I didn’t. I avoided them if I had crushes on them. It was very sad, hurt a lot of friendships. But went off -- went back to Virginia for college, just -- I guess thought I’d give it another try, and it just did not work. So I moved to New York, and then I moved to Boston. And -LJ: That was the progression. 2 �MM: What? LJ: That was the progression of it all. MM: Yeah. And then I still wasn’t out. I was really fighting it. And I was determined that I was not going to be a lesbian, [00:03:00] and I really absolutely determined, and I can be very stubborn. And so I got married. I went to Tufts for U, got degrees, got -- then I got married to -again, to -- that would definitely prove I wasn’t gay. So I got married when I was older and had two children, which I certainly don’t regret that in any way. And, of course, it couldn’t last. So then I separated and moved to Dedham, Mass. with the children. And came out after I moved to Dedham, in about -- around -- well, actually before I moved, because that’s why I separated. Because I finally decided I just couldn’t fight it any longer. I gave up. [00:04:00] I finally surrendered. LJ: You finally surrendered, huh? To the inevitable. MM: So, moved to Dedham, met my first partner, who lived down the road, who was not out either. LJ: What year was that? MM: We got together in ’78. LJ: ‘78. MM: The blizzard of ’78 brought us together. And she died a couple of years ago. LJ: I’m sorry to hear that. MM: She was -- we were together about eight years and -- anyway, so it’s been a -- I couldn’t have survived without DOB. After we broke up, it was DOB that really -- the only place I knew to go -LJ: To go to. Tell me about when you first came to DOB. Could you -- just want people to know. [00:05:00] How did you find out about DOB? 3 �MM: Gosh, I just don’t know. The first person -- I couldn’t even find any gay people. My hairdresser was the only person -- this male hairdresser was the only person I knew that was gay, and he was my only contact. And through him, I sort of found out about different organizations. I still didn’t know any gay women. I don’t know if it was through one of the newspapers, possibly, I finally got hold of one. LJ: Probably GCN [Gay Community News]. MM: Probably. And, so I found out about it through that and sort of snuck in like in the middle of the night. Like it was -LJ: Through the back door. MM: And then, lo and behold, I was so amazed at all the wonderful people there, and just -LJ: You saw that there were a lot more --[00:06:00] a lot more people than you thought. MM: A lot more. Right, right. And there was a whole world out there that I was finally able to find through the DOB. LJ: So, when you came, I assume that it was at Old Cambridge Baptist Church? MM: Yes. It was about ’83, maybe? LJ: About ’83, yeah. So was your first experience there, coming to a rap? MM: Yes. LJ: So, did you meet many people there? Did you go to a lot of the functions and things that -- what was your experience like? MM: Well, I think that you were leading it then, [00:07:00] the meetings. And there’s still people, I mean, like Tracy, I just saw, was with, the other night. I mean, still people that I still have contact -- still friends with and still have contact with. And they were there then, that first night I 4 �was there. And I think that Carol may have been there when I first went, also. And so I still have contact with her and -LJ: With those people. MM: Right. So it’s amazing. It was a terrific group, and you made it a terrific group. LJ: Well, people really tried to target themselves to make friends. So, your first experience was coming in and going up those stairs? MM: Yeah. LJ: [00:08:00] Which a lot of people did. I’ve had people tell me that. MM: I did go to a group at one point. It was a small group, and I don’t remember what it was called. But I was so afraid. I mean, it’s unbelievable thinking back on it. I’m almost embarrassed about it. But I had somebody -- had the gay hairdresser waiting for me in the car. And then I was all dressed in a dress. And so, they answered the door, and they sort of said, “You’re not -- you’re in the wrong place.” Because I didn’t look the part at all. Anyway, the misconceptions I had in the -- and the, really, fear I had, terrified, terror of coming out. LJ: Would you like to talk about those a little bit? When you said “misconceptions,” what did you mean? MM: [00:09:00] Well, growing up, I had this horrible thing in the pit of my stomach that I might be gay. And it -- whenever I thought about it, I would just -- it would just make me sick. I’d almost, like, be sick to my stomach. And I just thought I cannot be that. It’s, you know -- that means I’m weird. I’m, you know, I’m not -- I’m a freak or something. And I just -- that was, I guess, what I’d gotten from being brought up in this small town in Virginia, which nobody ever really talked about it. I don’t know where I got those ideas. I just -LJ: Had you found any reading material to -- 5 �MM: No. Not in Virginia, I didn’t. That was not until later. And then I went away to school [00:10:00] determined that I was -- this was part of my defeating lesbianism that continued. And that was part of the way I was going to defeat it, by getting away from Virginia. So I wouldn’t be a black mark on the family. I didn’t want to ruin the family name and make a disgrace. My father was a surgeon, and my grandfather, and they had their own hospital. So they were very well known. And my mother’s family was very well known in the area, and very prominent. And I thought I would just be, you know, a disgrace and black sheep. And so I went to Washington at 13 to get away. LJ: Ever been discussed at home? I mean, any comments or whatever that would have formed that feeling of bringing disgrace on the family? MM: The only thing was my mother, when I -- [00:11:00] she heard me talking on the phone to this girl I had this huge crush on. That was the breaking point. And I was just crazy about her. And I had all these pictures of her. I was so naïve, I didn’t know that it was strange or -- and I was talking to her on the phone. I was telling her I loved her. And my mother overheard it, and she came storming up the stairs and said, you know, that, “You’re a freak. You’re going to go --” That ‘you’d be like this man who used to wander around town, who was very sort of effeminate, but also very sort of disabled and strange.’ And, you know, and then the -- like, the next day, I was sent away to Washington. LJ: It sounds as though your mother had formed that concept in your mind. MM: Right. LJ: And not being as -- [00:12:00] you know, all of us have felt there was very little to learn. You could not learn anything from the local library or anyplace like that. 6 �MM: Right. And I was a tomboy, or course, when I was young. And Mother wanted me to wear frilly dresses and lace and all, and I would refuse to do that and wore pants and T-shirts, much to her horror. I was never accepted by the family, and I used to go out and play cowboys and Indians, and used to, you know, play baseball. I just never fit the pattern of -LJ: So your mother disapproved of that? MM: Yes. And when I returned, became a teenager, they told me I had to start wearing dresses, skirts. I couldn’t wear pants anymore. And I had to stop playing baseball and -- you know, I just, I didn’t have [00:13:00] really any much choice. I was depending on them for my life. And so I was very relieved and very happy to go off to school. LJ: I bet you were. MM: Right. Right. LJ: So, what was the name of the school? MM: National Cathedral School in Washington. It’s part of the National Cathedral, where Bush is being buried, right? LJ: That’s right. MM: It’s a wonderful school. And very high -- very good education, and the teachers were fabulous and very advanced. LJ: Well, thank God you were able to go away to the school. Were there any gay women there? MM: They ended up being some -- that I didn’t know about until after college. Nobody acted on it then or -- probably more than I knew about. But -LJ: What college was it that you went to? 7 �MM: I went back to Virginia, to Mary Baldwin College. [00:14:00] I didn’t like it at all. And it was -so as soon as -- and I studied art there, and I got into art and psychology. And as soon as I could get away, again, I escaped to New York, and then escaped to Boston. LJ: So, what is the work that you’ve been doing your whole life, Mary? Are you a therapist? MM: I’m a therapist. I’m a psychotherapist. Right now I have -- I’m still working. I’m 80 years old, and I see probably 25 to 30 clients a week. LJ: My goodness. MM: I love it. I find it endlessly fascinating. I did get into drinking heavily at one point. That was when I was with Barbara. And got sober 40 years ago. And that’s been wonderful. [00:15:00] So I do treat people who have alcohol and drug addictions. And I find that absolutely fascinating. And, so I -- you know, they’ll have to drag me out of there feet first before, you know -- which probably won’t be too long from now. But anyway. (laughs) I also had an art gallery. I’m an art lover -LJ: I didn’t know that. Tell us about your art gallery. MM: Yeah, and in Provincetown. LJ: In Provincetown. MM: And I sold my son’s artwork. I have a daughter and a son. And they’ve been everything to me. My daughter’s now a judge, and my son is an artist, as well as a therapist who works with disabled adults, using art. An art therapist. So they’re both just fabulous and have meant everything to me. So, they’re [00:16:00] -- he’s an artist, and we follow art a lot. [PAUSE] LJ: Where does your daughter live now? MM: She lives in Dedham. 8 �LJ: In Dedham, too? MM: And she’s a probate court judge. [00:18:00] She’s also a social worker in Canton. LJ: Very accomplished. MM: Right. LJ: And, do you have grandchildren? MM: I do. She has two boys that are wonderful. The oldest boy’s 14. He goes to Milton Academy. And the other boy’s 12, and he’s at Dedham Country Day School. And my son has two boys. I’d give anything for a girl, but too late, I think. LJ: Nature has not decreed that. MM: Right. So the oldest boy’s at Dexter School, and the youngest one is only a year old, and not at school yet. But they’re both -- they’re all really wonderful, and very smart and attractive. LJ: It’s wonderful that you have a family. MM: Right. LJ: A wonderful family surrounding you. MM: It is wonderful. LJ: That’s great. MM: My daughter’s a social worker. [00:19:00] She’s very versed in substance abuse and -- so she’s making a wonderful judge. LJ: I’m sure she is, because that must be a lot of the work which comes up to her. MM: She’s a lawyer, was a lawyer at a law firm in Boston. And then worked for the courts for quite a while. LJ: And she’s a probate judge? MM: Mm-hmm. 9 �LJ: That’s wonderful. You must be so proud of her. MM: I am very proud of her, right. And my son, who’s really a terrific person and does some wonderful work with very disabled people who -- mentally and physically -LJ: And need the help. MM: Mm-hmm. And he’s terrific with them. He’s a -- and does a lot of art with them, a lot of painting with them. LJ: That’s [00:20:00] a useful skill. MM: It is, right. LJ: If I may go back just a little bit. Mary, how long did it take you to -- when you came to Boston, and you finally had the opportunity to be more open about your life and about yourself, in what other specific ways did DOB help you? Did you -- could you tell us how you participated? What you -- did you go to dances? Did you go to dinners? Or maybe you remember some of the -- what were some of the ways in which the organization helped you? MM: I don’t remember that there were dances. There were some dances back then, yes, but not right at the beginning. So we did go -- [00:21:00] I did go to some dances. I met my first -- my second partner there, Carol. I met a lot of friends there, and we -- it just mostly helped me psychologically. It helped me to talk with other lesbians and share experiences, and talk about what it’s like to try to, you know, in that horrible atmosphere we were in at that time. The young people today have no idea what we went through. But -LJ: They certainly don’t. They think they can get married right away. As [Sheri] says, she always quotes the story about the lesbian is, you meet, you’re interested, and next week, you move in. The U-Haul arrives at the door. MM: [00:22:00] Right. Yeah. 10 �LJ: Would you like to ask some questions? SB: So, did you go to any raps? You know, the talks with each other? MM: Every week I went for -SB: You did? MM: -- a long, long time. Yes. SB: Did you go to a specific one? Did you go to the same one every week? MM: I went to the ones that Lois led. She was a very good leader and very helpful. And I trusted her. SB: Do you remember some of the things you talked about? I mean, was there a -- you know, they had raps for different topics. MM: Different topics. Coming out was one of the ones, I think that -- because I was really still coming out. It took me many years to come out. [00:23:00] And, so I used to go to the coming out raps. I remember that. It was something -- in those days, it was -- I had my own -- I had to deal with my own internalized homophobia, which was really huge. And it helped me to just be with other lesbians who didn’t have three heads and didn’t, you know -- who were just like me. I mean, and just like everybody else. It was really helpful. It’s horrible. And there’s still people in this world that are growing up feeling, thinking that, and certain[ly] in other countries. It’s really sad. I’ve always felt if I would like to do -- is [there] anything I could do to try to make an improve[ment]. I think it’s still [00:24:00] -- homophobia certainly still exists in this country. We have a vice president who’s extremely homophobic. And it’s questionable whether we have a president [Trump]. God knows what he thinks. But -SB: But you say it made it easier to talk to your family? Were you able to talk to your family, you know, after a -- 11 �MM: No. SB: -- certain amount of time? No? MM: No. I just divorced myself from my family. I just knew that there would never be any acceptance, especially from my mother. So I just went home as seldom as I could. I did talk to my cousin, who was my closest friend, who I had moved to New York with. And I’d grown up with her. She was a managing editor, Fortune magazine. So she was pretty savvy. [00:25:00] And I did tell her, and so I was able to do that. But I’ve never been able to really get 100 percent acceptance from her, even though she’s never married. She -SB: What did she say? Or she just didn’t say? She stayed neutral, or would you call it, or -- or you did feel a little rejection? MM: I felt a little bit of a distance. She was brought up in North Carolina, the same kind of atmosphere. And we lived in New York. We moved to New York after college. We were the only people to ever leave Virginia, really. And she’s very gutsy and very brilliant. She has a photographic memory. She’s extremely brilliant and very charming, very well-known, [00:26:00] and very well loved. She was -- became the vice president of the University of North Carolina later. I just saw her not long ago. We’re still very close. And -- but she does not -- she says she’s not a lesbian, so I don’t know. She’s never married. She’s had several boyfriends, some of them gay. (laughter) LJ: The kind that you bring to church with you, or to the local dance? MM: Right. Right. LJ: That sounds like 1960 to me. (laughter) Did you ever go to Gay Pride parades? 12 �MM: I had a wonderful friend here, who was a social worker at Mass General. She went. She was not a lesbian. And she went to one of the first Gay Prides. [00:27:00] And I didn’t dare -- would not go. That was back in -- when was that? In the ’70s, ’60s? LJ: Well, the first one was 1970-ought. MM: Yeah. So she went to, like, one of the first ones and told me about it. And so then I went and watched one from a distance. LJ: Oh, I just happened to go. What’s happening here? MM: Right. Right. And then I did start going, yeah. SB: Did you feel comfortable when you participated -- marched? MM: Pretty much. Yeah, I liked driving -- riding on the bus. LJ: The good old trolley. MM: Yeah. Right. SB: Were you -- MM: I think I walked for the first one. SB: When you were in DOB, what other activities [00:28:00] did you -- MM: We did have the dances there, at DOB. LJ: Yes, we did. MM: Right. I remember that church room. I can still see it, where we used to have dances and parties -LJ: Downstairs on the first floor, yeah. MM: So I did go to those and made friends, and found a partner. SB: You found a partner there? MM: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 13 �SB: So, did you still continue to go to DOB after you found a partner? MM: Yes, Uh-huh. She and I -- it was Carol. She and I went together. We moved to Cambridge. That was -- when was it? LJ: That was -- MM: ‘85. LJ: Yes, I do remember. Some parties at that lovely house. MM: [00:29:00] Yeah, yeah. LJ: Wonderful. MM: I wish I still had that. LJ: I know, it’s a -- it’s difficult. MM: I moved too much. I moved, and I’ve been -- I’ve had several partners, and it’s just been -- you know, I’m sad that I haven’t been able to find one person or anyone. I have not had a partner now for quite some time. LJ: What happened with the last relationship? MM: Well, the last -LJ: Did she pass away? MM: No. I was involved with someone from New York, Roberta, who was not -- she’s really still not out. She was married for most of her life. Married very young. And he just died about a year ago. [00:30:00] But they were married in name only, and she took care of him. He was sick for many years, or she got people to take care of him, anyway. So that did not -- the relationship did not last. I wanted a live-in -- you know, we were together about five years, maybe. And it was a long distance relationship. We met in Connecticut, in New York. And she was really very closeted and hidden, and her daughter, her children didn’t know. She was still living with him, 14 �even though he was an invalid, and it just was too much. It just got to be too much. I was crazy about her, and, you know. So that really broke my heart. I have not been -- not been -- I have not, you know, felt the same about anybody since then. LJ: [00:31:00] Where are you living now? MM: I’m living in Dedham, in an apartment, in a small apartment by myself. And I’m actually -which I never thought would happen -- have gotten very used to living by myself and don’t mind it at all. I really actually like being by myself, so -SB: You like that alone time, so that you -- and then you go out and see people and -- MM: Well, I work every day, so -SB: That’s right. Of course. MM: So I’m pretty busy. And then I have my children. I see them every weekend, and [am] very involved with their lives. And my grandchildren, so -- I would like to have more friends. I wish DOB still existed so we could -LJ: I know. MM: Because I feel like I don’t have enough friends now. LJ: [00:32:00] Are you aware of Rally? MM: Yes, yes. I’ve been to Rally. LJ: And also, OLOC? MM: Right. Mm-hmm. SB: And OLE. It’s a singing group, really, but, I mean, but it’s social. It’s very social. MM: OLE is singing? SB: They get together once a month to sing from a certain book. But half the time it’s socializing. 15 �MM: I haven’t been to OLE in a long time. I don’t know why. I’ve sort of disappeared lately. I haven’t been to OLOC or OLE. LJ: Have you been tired? I mean, from -- MM: Yeah. LJ: -- it sounds as though you were taking a full load of work -- MM: I am tired. LJ: -- than a (inaudible) person would. MM: I’ve just made it -- you know, hoping I could move in with my daughter. And that way, I can retire. Not retire, but work less, [00:33:00] I think. So we’ll see how that works out. I’m trying to figure out some way to work less. LJ: Well, it’s wonderful that you’re still doing it, because with all the experience that you have, you must be a great help to people. MM: Thank you. I think I am to some people. You know, it’s hard to know, but I -- you know, it’s a strange field, because you get to know people so well, and work with them so hard, and then all of sudden, they can just disappear, and you don’t know what happened to them. Which leaves you hanging. But I do feel like I am helpful to a lot of people. LJ: Are there a lot of family left? I’m sure your mother and father are gone, but -- MM: My mother and father are gone. My older sister is very ill in Virginia. She has lymphoma, and she’s quite something. [00:34:00] She’s quite a character. She went to Bennington College, and then she went back to Virginia and became a Virginia lady and gave up all of her ambitions to be a psychologist. She’s very bright. She’s 96. And we talked -- we’ve become quite close in the last few years, especially with her being so ill. So she’s a wonderful person. And really gave up 16 �her life to take care of her husband, who was a surgeon, and her three boys, which she regrets, I think. But she, you know -LJ: That she didn’t do something on her own? MM: Right. While she was -SB: She was a psychologist, you said? MM: Yes. She was getting her Ph.D in psychology, and she was working for a psychologist in New York. She had studied under Erich Fromm. And she just gave all that up to come back to this small town in Virginia and be a housewife. [00:35:00] Which is what people did in those days. LJ: Why, certainly. In the ’50s you did. MM: Right. SB: That’s right. LJ: And if you didn’t, good-bye. MM: Right. LJ: That’s the way it was. MM: And he was very much a male chauvinist, demanded a lot. LJ: Just to go back to DOB for a minute, were there any other things that you wanted to say about DOB? Or were there -- did you participate in any activities where you were outreaching to other women or whatever happened to be going on at the time? Or were you just still too afraid to get too out? MM: I was still afraid to get too out. [00:36:00] You know, part of the problem was having children. And I didn’t want them to have to suffer in those days. They tell -- they’ve told me since -- I didn’t know it, but my son got teased endlessly about his mother being gay. I did not even know that his school, his friends knew. I don’t know how they knew. 17 �LJ: How they knew. MM: But he got harassed a lot. LJ: Isn’t that a shame? MM: When he was a child, yeah. And my daughter, I think, escaped it, I think, somewhat. But they are more gay rights than I am now. They are fanatic. He was out marching when the first gay marches. He had a flag or some kind of sign saying, “My mother’s a lesbian.” And it ended up on the front page of the Globe. LJ: Oh, my God. MM: He was like a teenager, [00:37:00] and I said, “Greg, thanks for outing me to the entire world.” (laughter) And he said, “Well, it’s about time.” And then my daughter is very, very in favor of gay rights. And, you know, I think it probably -- it’s wonderful she’s a -- I think it helped her, becoming a lesbian. They had me there, and they had this woman I was dating with me at her swearing in and her hearing and all of that. It was very, very important that I was a lesbian, which was really incredible, with the governor and all these people there. And it was a big thing that I was -- because that meant that, you know, that she knew all about the gay rights laws and the wedding, the marriages laws. And I was part of that first marriage movement. I was at Elyse Cherry’s house when those six couples first met. I’m so proud of that. That was so exciting. And I -- you know, Mary Bonauto [00:38:00] was there, and they were all talking about, they were going to sue the government to be able to marry. And I thought, this is insane, no way are gay people going get married. (laughter) LJ: Here I am. MM: Right. But -LJ: Straight from Virginia. 18 �MM: Right. But it happened, thanks to Mary Bonauto and Elyse Cherry, who doesn’t get enough credit for it. LJ: I know. Elyse is just a wonderful soul. MM: She is unbelievable. She just plows right along. So did Mary. And I used to see a lot of the six couples standing, Provincetown, when I was there. Some of the couples live there. SB: What do you think was the most effective thing about DOB as an organization? MM: I was just thinking about, you know, that book. I think [00:39:00] that’s how I first heard about it. Del -LJ: (inaudible) SB: Del Martin and -- LJ: Let’s see which one. SB: -- Phyllis Lyon. MM: Right. I think I read that book, Lesbian/Woman, or something like that. That was the first thing that I -LJ: That introduced you to DOB. MM: Right. So then I heard about DOB. And then somehow, I tracked it down in Boston and Cambridge. I don’t know how I found it. But anyway, so that was very, very important, that book that I think a lot of people -LJ: That people at last had some sense of what was this shadow organization that they didn’t know much about, even if they’d ever heard the name. MM: It was actually Betty Freidan’s book, The Feminine Mystique, had the same affect on me in terms of women in general [00:40:00] coming out. But that was long before the -- I think -- was it? Long before I read this Lesbian/Woman, right. 19 �SB: To me, it sounds like you really do credit DOB, however, with going with you through this process. MM: I couldn’t have done it without it. I couldn’t have -- I don’t know where I’d be today. Maybe still married and drinking. I’d have drunk myself to death by now. I couldn’t have crawled out of the hole I was in. There’s no way, without DOB. LJ: I remember you coming regularly. You were there quite a bit. MM: Mm-hmm. Yeah. LJ: [00:41:00] Did you say that you met someone at DOB that -- MM: Carol. LJ: Carol. Of course, Carol died. MM: Mm-hmm. We met very soon after I first started coming, and then we came, she and I came together. I met Tracy then, and Tracy and I have been friends since then. And there were a few people that I met at DOB that I’ve continued [a] friendship with. SB: Why did you stop going? Or, when it ended, basically ended -- LJ: In the early ’90s. SB: Early ’90s, yeah. What -- how long did you go? [00:42:00] Do you -- MM: Well, when I became partnered with Carol, it was ’80; -- we were together ’83 to ’90, I think, something like that. And I got my degree in social work, I started working really hard. I just sort of drifted away from -- I didn’t go to as many meetings. We had some people to our house, had parties there. I just didn’t need it anymore as much. And I was one of those ones that, unfortunately, in the beginning, that sort of -- with the trailer. You know, the U-Haul. (laughter) And, anyway, so I was -- knew nothing [00:43:00] about relationships and still don’t, even 20 �though I do couples therapy. It’s the hardest thing in the world, to have a relationship. I think it’s much harder to have a lesbian relationship than -LJ: Well, obviously. SB: You do, really? MM: Mm-hmm. SB: What -- can I just ask you why you think that? MM: Mainly because I think society’s stigma, it takes a toll on the relationship in general. It’s gotten better. Now we can get married, and we can come out to the world that we’re a couple. But there’s still that internalized homophobia that causes problems, I think, still. SB: Yeah. You know, I went to a very special event at OLOC yesterday where they had entertainment. Well, they called it entertainment, but it was mainly women [00:44:00] reading from their writings. You know, some of them had been published. And they had two young women there, and one was dancing and acting out being in a bar in the ’30s and meeting a woman. And the last woman was an African American woman, and she was just -- she was unbelievable. It wasn’t hip-hop, it was rhyming poetry, but it was like, “Here I am, and that’s me, and there’s no doubt about it, and I’m beautiful, blah, blah.” And, you know, I really believe, because I’ve heard it from so many people, that the younger generation, they don’t even blink an eye anymore. MM: Right. It’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. SB: My nephew doesn’t. MM: It’s just great. SB: [00:45:00] They perhaps don’t know how much we had to deal with. MM: They don’t. 21 �LJ: I’m sure they don’t know. MM: I met an African-American woman who helps take care of my sister in Virginia. And right away, I knew she was a lesbian. I don’t know, my sister just loves her, and she is a wonderful person. And my sister’s never mentioned that, but apparently she does know. Anyway, she’s from Virginia and from this same small town. LJ: Amazing. MM: And I said [to the woman who’s caring for my sister], “Oh my God, you’re a lesbian in Martinsville?” and she said, “Yes,” she said, “and I don’t care who knows.” She said, “Anybody doesn’t like it, you know, they…” She just had the security to be able to be out. She had a partner. I met her partner. And, anyway, [00:46:00] I just was stunned, even now. Because it’s -- the city itself has become a different place now, for the worse. SB: For the worse? MM: Yeah. LJ: Is it still prejudiced, do you think? SB: Can you wait just a minute? MM: Worse. LJ: It’s about half past 12. We had enough time. MM: Yeah. Now she’s looking for messages. Yeah, it’s worse in a -- I don’t know. I want to write a book about all of this at some point. I’ve got the book in my head. My therapist keeps begging me to write a book. LJ: What’s the name of the town? Martins -- MM: [00:47:00] Martinsville, Virginia. And it used to be a very small, quaint little town with a lot of old Victorian houses. And now it’s very -- now all the industry -- well, industry moved in. The 22 �Bassett Furniture, American (inaudible), all these big furniture companies. It became a very wealthy town. Cotton mills, the sweatshirt capital of the world. So it became a very wealthy town and really blossomed. Then all those industries went to China. So now it’s very poor. And most -- I don’t know anybody there anymore. It’s just real sad. I know very few people. I went back recently to try to help start a medical school there. I was -- and started a mental health department. We couldn’t get the money together to do it. So that’s another whole book. But the town itself now [00:48:00] is very poor. And it was one of the wealthiest towns; now it’s one of the poorest towns in Virginia. And there’s a lot of, you know, opiate addiction. There’s a lot of crime. I don’t -- I have a friend whose son is gay who lives there, and she’s the only old -- from the old families still left. And he does okay. I don’t know any gay women there. I don’t know that -- except for this girl, she’s much younger, who helps take care of my mother -- my sister -- who is sort of a mother. She’s 15 years older than me. LJ: So that’s very sad for you. MM: It is. It is. And I tried to help. I thought this medical school could help bring this town back, but we just couldn’t get the money [00:49:00] together to do it. There’s a doctor who’s doing the medical school part, but -- anyway, so that’s a long story. But, yeah, I would say the homophobia is still there. It’s still -LJ: Do you see homophobia here in Massachusetts, or in your current experiences? MM: I haven’t had any direct experience with it. I have clients occasionally who will make remarks about -- but that’s very seldom. I deal a lot with people trying to accept their children coming out. And most are able to [00:50:00] deal with it eventually. LJ: To deal with it. I think we in Massachusetts like to think that there’s not a lot of homophobia around. And I think that’s true for the most part. But I think in certain churches it still remains. 23 �SB: Definitely. MM: In certain churches? LJ: In certain churches. MM: Like the Catholic church? LJ: Yes. SB: Mm-hmm. LJ: Certainly not Episcopal. And most of the other Protestant denominations are open. MM: Unitarians have become very pro-gay, yeah. SB: You mean like evangelicals and the Catholics. MM: Right, right. There are a lot of evangelical Baptist, Southern Baptists and evangelicals in Martinsville. LJ: In town. MM: So that’s where the homophobia’s mostly found. LJ: [00:51:00] It’s probably where a lot of it is coming from. MM: Mm-hmm. Right. Which I don’t understand at all. I mean, Christ said ‘love everybody’. I mean, you know, that’s the basis of Christianity. LJ: It is, yeah. MM: Love everybody but gay people, I guess. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. But certainly if Pence becomes president, I think we -- and they are still doing that conversion therapy, too, so -LJ: I know. Hopefully, it will get banned. SB: I think it’s been banned in some states. But that movie will have an impact, Boy Erased. LJ: Disobedience? SB: No, Boy Erased. 24 �MM: I haven’t seen it, and I’m dying to see it. SB: Yeah, and I’d like to see that. It’s about a boy who’s made to go to conversion therapy by his parents, I guess. Yeah. MM: [00:52:00] I have some gay clients. I’m amazed at how few I have. I don’t have many older gay. I have a lot of older clients, but I don’t have many lesbian clients. I’ve had some young people who, you know, there’s all this, you know, they’re not male or female, you know, or maybe queer. LJ: You mean fluid? MM: Right. SB: Fluid. MM: Fluid. LJ: That’s the newest alphabet letters that we had. [LGBTQ] MM: Which I don’t really -- really don’t agree with. But, so it’s hard to -- anyway. I mean, I don’t understand it. From my experience, and from all I know, I don’t -- I mean, I don’t -- I hate to be -- I try to be openminded about it, but it’s hard. LJ: As we all do. (laughter) SB: [00:53:00] Well, I don’t understand it sometimes. MM: They get very upset if you say that. LJ: I know. Well, let’s see. MM: I just get -- OLE really. I mean DOB really did save my life, and made me a very different person. I’m a very different person now because of it. LJ: We’re so glad you came to Boston. MM: Thank you. Yeah, I am, too. 25 �SB: Did you ever, by any chance, want to be a leader of [a] group? Or you were just finding your way in the group? MM: Right. I was just finding my way in the group, yeah. I was -- I didn’t -- really wasn’t together enough to be a leader. I was too -- still too squeamish, I guess, or too scared. [00:54:00] But it wasn’t long after I went to DOB that I became less scared and I was able to come out. SB: What was your experience climbing those stairs that everybody talks about? MM: Yeah. I was, you know, I wasn’t so old then. You mean, going in the first time? That was very scary. I don’t know how I ever did it, actually. I think I went by myself. SB: You went by yourself? MM: I think so. I didn’t know anybody else to go with. I couldn’t bring the gay man with me. He was my only gay friend. So I do think I went by myself. At that point, I had belonged to a small group for a short time, like 12 women. [00:55:00] Maggie somebody was the head of that group, and it met at peoples’ apartments or peoples’ houses. LJ: That was in Boston? MM: Around. It may have been in the suburbs. LJ: There’s a group somewhere. It might have been the beginnings of OLE. I’m not sure. Maggie - MM: I think it was. LJ: Let’s see. MM: She was short, then -LJ: Was she freckled and -- MM: I think so. 26 �LJ: Yeah. I think I know who it was. She’s passed away. I think she’s buried at Mount Auburn, but I’m not sure. Yeah. MM: She was the one who came to the door and told me I was in the wrong place. LJ: Told you what? MM: In the wrong place. I was all dressed in a dress, and I looked very -LJ: One look at those high heels. MM: Right. (laughter) LJ: What happened to your combat boots? MM: [00:56:00] Right, I know. Well, the next time I overcame. LJ: Well, did you ever go to the Saints? Or to the other bar which was active at that time, Somewhere? MM: Yes, uh-huh. Yeah. I went to the Somewhere several times. Even when I had -- with my partner. I just wasn’t crazy about the bar scene so much, thank goodness. LJ: Thank goodness. SB: Yeah, that’s right. MM: The Saints, I think I only went to once or something. I went to Provincetown, to the bar down there. Still, I just felt uncomfortable. [00:57:00] LJ: I know. A lot of the -- thank God, a lot of the bar culture has gone out the window. MM: Hence, the highest amount of alcoholism [is] among lesbians. Very high percentage. SB: Is that right? MM: Thirty percent, right. That’s the way it was, and I don’t know if it is anymore. LJ: I think it has probably gone down some as people are more aware of their health. MM: Yeah. And there was a very, you know, and very high among gay men also. 27 �LJ: Well, Mary, is there anything else which you would like to say about DOB or your experiences with it? MM: I’m just forever grateful. [00:58:00] Really saved my life. I really say it saved my life because I was dealing with these issues by drinking, and hiding out, and becoming sort of reclusive. And I -- just helped me to become a person and stop escaping from it. It’s really the turning point for me. LJ: For you. How old were you at that time? MM: Thirty -- late ’30s, I think. LJ: Late ’30s. MM: Yeah. Or 40. LJ: Did you go to the 35-plus rap? MM: Yes, uh-huh. Right. I wasn’t much of a dancer and a partier, so I was kind of shy, you know. [00:59:00] So it was hard for me to go to those things. You know, and I would feel uncomfortable about talking to people. I was shy, so -SB: It must have been very difficult at work. I mean, did you work for a company or did you work for yourself at that time? MM: I taught at Tufts. I was an occupational therapist, a psychiatric occupational therapist. So I worked at Mass Mental Health Center. That was my first job. And my life was always based around who I was in love with at the moment. And so I left Mass Mental because I was in love with this woman who I couldn’t get over, and went to get my master’s degree at Boston University in occupational therapy. Then I got my master’s degree at Simmons. So, in between that time, [01:00:00] I taught at Tufts. I taught group dynamics. And I wrote a paper that was sort of fairly well known in the field of group dynamics. And -- 28 �LJ: What was that about? MM: It was about using activities in groups as opposed to just talking, and showing the difference in the progression of personal interaction between the group members. And it was significant, because it showed that using activities was -- really helped unite the group. And a lot of people have used my research to do other research since. So, and then I sort of dropped out and got married and had children. And then I dropped out of the field of occupational therapy and went back later as a -- and became a social worker. Because I wanted to do therapy. I just knew I wanted to do therapy. So, I’ve had therapy my whole life, 01:01:00] 40 years at least, and still have a therapist who’s fantastic. So I couldn’t have done this, either, without having therapy. Because my self-esteem was tied up with it, too, with the self-loathing of being a lesbian. LJ: Or being brought up in the kind of upper area of society as you were. MM: Right. LJ: It was even more difficult, probably, than someone who had a different level in society. MM: Right. SB: Does the southern culture -- MM: My mother was very prim and proper, and, you know, used proper manners. She never went out of the house without wearing her hat and her white gloves. And she was very -LJ: 1950s? MM: Right. And I had to wear tweed suits, and I’ve got a wonderful picture of me. [01:02:00] I look so miserable. And I was not allowed to be dressed the way I wanted to or be who I wanted to be. I was supposed to stay home. My sisters did, too. I mean, I had three older sisters, and they all became debutantes and flower arrangers, and married proper young southern gentlemen, and 29 �went to the garden clubs. And, you know, the emphasis was on keeping their houses and their gardens, and socializing. You know, the Colonial Dames, and the Junior League and all those groups. And I just was not -LJ: It wasn’t you. MM: It was not me. So I had to -- I had to get away. I couldn’t do it there. [01:03:00] So I had to get away to be myself. Thank God I wandered into Boston because -SB: It had just -- I’m sure that you would agree that you’re -- that southern culture had a lot to do with your feeling like the black sheep, the one that was out of it, and what you had to go through. Because I was brought up in a middle class home in Connecticut. Nobody ever talked about homosexuals or anything like that. But it wasn’t -- you didn’t get the extreme -- MM: Right. The only experience I ever had with my father, there was a woman doctor. My cousin, my mother’s cousin lived with this woman doctor who was very masculine. And they also had this very effeminate man living with them. [01:04:00] It was a strange situation. And -LJ: Could have given us an idea that there was something different going on? MM: Right. Well, my father used to make jokes about it. And, you know, so that was my first sort of experience with anybody. And I always wanted to be a doctor, but I -- she was always used as, you know, that’s what a woman doctor is, they’re lesbians, you know. Although they never said the L word. But it was, you know, you were tough, [a] dyke. But, anyway, so that was my first experience with -- first person I knew who -- I didn’t even know the word then, but -LJ: Did she ever come to Thanksgiving dinner? MM: She would come -- they would come to weddings and things like that, or big events. And the mother’s cousin was very feminine and very soft and a very nice person. [01:05:00] I saw her years later after the other two had died. I wish I had -- I wasn’t even out then. I was in college 30 �then, I think, and I wish I had been able to talk with her, but I couldn’t. She was older, then she died not long after that. LJ: Yes, that it too bad, because that would really, probably have helped you with self-acceptance. MM: Right. So, anyway, I’m going to write a book about all this. SB: Good. LJ: You’re going to? MM: Write a book about it. LJ: I think that’s a very good idea. SB: I do, too. LJ: The only books that I ever saw when I was coming out were, We Walk Alone Through Lesbos’ Lonely Groves. [01:06:00] SB: How about The Well of Loneliness? MM: Loneliness, oh, my God. LJ: Oh, God help us. SB: Oh, God. LJ: Did you have any other questions you wanted to have clarified? SB: No. I think it’s been a wonderful interview. LJ: It’s been a wonderful interview. MM: Thank you. I thank you for doing it. LJ: I think you’ll be very helpful for people to have it. Is there anything else you would like to share with us? 31 �MM: I don’t think so. I would just like to find an older woman to grow old with now, though. I don’t want to be alone. I don’t mind being alone as much as I did, but I would still like to find a partner to grow old with. But it’s gotten -- it’s practically impossible. LJ: I know, it does. Well, I think just going to Rally or some of the other organizations, some people have met people. You have a prime example here. SB: [01:07:00] And I’m the prime example. I’m 71, and I met someone in May at an OLE get together down in Provincetown. I never thought I’d have another relationship. MM: That’s fantastic. Wow, that’s great. SB: I’m very happy. MM: That’s wonderful. What’s her name? SB: Pam. I never would have thought in a million years, you know. I grew up in Connecticut. Here I am with this person -- sometimes she’s got these sayings I don’t understand at all. MM: I know. Midwesterners can be terrific, though. SB: Oh, she’s -- they can be, because they’re so much nicer. MM: Southerners, despite all the homophobia and all that, they are much nicer. I mean, they’re friendlier and easier to get to know. LJ: [01:08:00] “Grow -- grow old along with me, the best it yet to be. The last of life for which the first was made.” Browning, is it? I don’t know. SB: I don’t know. But I like that, Lois. That’s wonderful. LJ: That’s what they say. MM: Well, this has inspired me to get going on my -- I’ve written some of my book. I’ve got to get going on it. I just somehow have a hard time writing it down. But it is easier to speak. My therapist has been trying to get me to talk it out, the book. 32 �SB: You know, should I -- MM: Because writing it down for me somehow makes me very nervous. SB: I’m just going to see I can shut this off. Because I, you know. Now I can’t shut it off. MM: But I do think young people need to know what we went through. LJ: I think they do. MM: It’s like the African-American movement. I mean, just to not know about slavery, [01:09:00] and what they went through. What we went through is similar in some way -- psychological slavery. LJ: I know. Really psychological, or fear. Just fear personified. You know, just that it would utterly -- and it did -- utterly destroy people. Have you seen Gen Silent? MM: Yes. That was -LJ: Because there -- the middle section there, where we talk about all the things that a lot of us knew about, or didn’t know about, which destroyed careers, destroyed people. And I’m sure there were a lot of suicides where people just said, you know, “I can’t take this anymore. Goodbye.” You know. MM: Even now as soon as I hear about a young person committing suicide, it’s immediately -LJ: It’s very upsetting. MM: -- immediately go there. [01:10:00] And I try to figure out -- I mean, I just heard about one last week. And the mother was, finally, after I’ve seen her several times, insinuating -- she’s from another country. And he may have been gay. SB: Oh, gosh. LJ: It’s so sad. 33 �MM: Totally unacceptable in their country, as it is -- I mean, the southern part of the United States is just very -- and the West, Midwest, is very different than here. LJ: I know it is. MM: I’m just so thankful we’re in Boston. LJ: I’m so thankful that I’ve always lived in Massachusetts for most of my -- or California. And, but it’s still, you know, now there is so much freedom of the mind for the young ones. And when you go to an event, which we really can’t do much anymore, but we go when we can -[01:11:00] there is just this sense of freedom that the young people have. And you say to yourself, aren’t they privileged that they have this now? And they have no idea where it came from. They have no idea of the, you know, the sleepless nights that people have had, the feelings of, Can I live? Am I worth anything? All of those things that people came to. Why doesn’t the church accept me? Does God accept me? You know, all of those things that people go through, that have gone through, but it’s been wiped away for the most part. I’m sure there’s still an undercurrent of it, but it’s been wiped away for the youngsters. To be able to say, “Oh, I think we’ll get married,” which in some cases is great, in other cases is not a good idea. [01:12:00] SB: You know, though, I went to an intergenerational meal, LGBTQ in Arlington. And there were two middle school students there with three of us old folks. And they never asked us a question. But that’s the age, too. I mean, they’re so self-involved. I mean, I was. We all were. But they talked about how they had been harassed at their school. And there was graffiti on the -- MM: Now? SB: Yeah. And this is Arlington High School. And that one of them -- you now, you talk about gender fluid. I mean, she was sitting there, and she said, “Now sometime -- some part of the day 34 �I might feel like a boy. And another part of the day, I feel like a girl. [01:13:00] So I don’t consider myself either a boy or a girl.” And that’s her interpretation of gender fluid. And then this whole thing with the pronouns, with the “her” and “his,” and fine, but when you get to “them” and “they,” I don’t get that. MM: See, I don’t think feelings is all about -- all there is to gender identity. I mean, it’s physical. You’re born with female genitalia. I mean, it’s not all about how you feel. And how do you feel like a boy? And how do you feel like a girl? I don’t know. SB: Well, I don’t know, because I always thought that -- well, I mean, you know, when they -- when people were talking about transsexuals, I always had a deep feeling of sadness for those people, because they were born [01:14:00] in the wrong body. That’s not how I felt. And I’m not sure -- MM: That’s a whole different ball game. SB: I’m not sure what’s going on right now. It’s transgender, but, I mean, it’s not so simple, I guess. MM: I think it’s just very complicated. Oh, my gosh. I don’t even dare talk to the young people about it. SB: You what? MM: I don’t even talk with the young people about it much. It’s just -- they’re so sensitive. If you don’t know what they mean by -- I mean, I try to find out what they mean by feeling like a boy. SB: You mean as a therapist, when you’re talking to them? MM: Mm-hmm. SB: Oh, boy. You think they would talk to you. END OF MARY MUMFORD FILE 35 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daughters of Bilitis (Boston) Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Through oral histories, 21 women share their stories of growing up, coming out, and joining the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the earliest known lesbian organization in the United States. DOB members came from diverse backgrounds, class, and education, but the rejection by one’s family, the stress of living a double life, and the search for a place to feel safe run through each narrative. Several storytellers knew they were lesbians in childhood, while others did not until their 30s and 40s. Some married men to conform to society’s expectations, while others fought to make an independent life for themselves. All found DOB, where they were accepted, loved, and nourished to grow into proud women, loving women. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coll.0213 Relation A related resource <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/items/show/183" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coll. 011: Boston Daughters of Bilitis Collection and Focus/Maiden Voyage Publication Finding Aid</a> <a href="https://historyproject.omeka.net/collections/show/48" title="Digitized Materials">Digitized Materials: Focus/Maiden Voyage, a publication of the Boston chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, 1969-1975</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Johnson, Lois; Boyer, Sarah Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Mumford, Mary Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Mumford, 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12-03 Description An account of the resource Interview with Mary Mumford for the Daughters of Bilitis Oral History Project. Interview conducted by Lois Johnson and Sarah Boyer. Subject The topic of the resource Mumford, Mary; Daughters of Bilitis (Boston); Lesbians; Lesbian movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ+ Boston Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright restrictions may apply. For more information and to view our takedown policy, visit https://historyproject.omeka.net/rights-and-reproductions. Daughters of Bilitis Oral history Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/m7YhJCS1ooY" frameborder="0"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Volante [Excerpt]: On Coming Out, 2015 Subject The topic of the resource Volante, Robert Description An account of the resource In 2015, Carlos Aguilar interviewed Robert Volante in Volante's home in Boston, Massachusetts. An excerpt from the interview with Volante, about coming out to his family, is presented below. To view the full interview, contact info@historyproject.org. This interview and others were made possible by a grant from the Boston Foundation's Equality Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aguilar, Carlos Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Contact info@historyproject.org for more information. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-volante-2015-clip Oral history Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2C0HAnuK3j4" frameborder="0"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Mitzel, 2012 Subject The topic of the resource Mitzel, John Description An account of the resource On February, 12, 2012, Mark Krone interviewed John Mitzel at Mitzel's bookstore, Calamus Books, in Boston, Massachusetts. The full interview with John Mitzel is presented below. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-12 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Krone, Mark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Contact info@historyproject.org for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-mitzel-2012-02-12 Boston interview John Mitzel LGTBQ history Mitzel Oral history Hyperlink Title, URL, Description or annotation. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 80 minutes, 43 seconds URL <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qdS6o24O6v0" frameborder="0"></iframe> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QT-a3tPEFSk" frameborder="0"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Peterson, 2010 Subject The topic of the resource Peterson, David Description An account of the resource On August 25, 2010, The History Project interviewed David Peterson about his work with Gay Community News, which he helped to found in 1973, and in other LGBTQ organizations and issues in Boston, Cambridge, and Massachusetts. The full interview with David Peterson is presented below, in two parts. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The History Project: Documenting LGBTQ Boston Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Contact info@historyproject.org for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context THP-OH-peterson-2010-08-25 Oral history